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#31 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 06:49 PM
 
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Certainly there are a lot of factors.  If I could get my hands on an OSHA report from some very prominent places on some very interesting locations we could have a field day as to why not only AI's but certain forms of cancers are prominent in certain areas.  See, I prefer not to narrow my scope.

It's good to keep an open mind.  You might want to take care; it's easy to miss something very obvious (like injected thimerosal and aluminum sulfate playing a major role in both AI's and ASDs) when one is looking at all the possible external factors.

 

For that matter, injected thimerosal and aluminum sulfate may play an even more important role in an individual who lives in one of those "very interesting locations" you mention.

 

Remember, we already know that thimerosal and aluminum have a much more toxic effect when given together.  What if they were given in an area that had significant mercury pollution?  What happens in areas within a mile of high-voltage power lines?  Those might be enough to cause significant problems even without vaccines.  What happens when you add vaccines into the mix?

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#32 of 59 Old 07-15-2013, 07:28 PM
 
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http://www.scorecard.org

 

Off topic a little but this is a VERY helpful website that helps us to decide where to locate our family when we move. It has limits (only covers what is actually reported to the EPA, not 100% up to 2013, may focus on industrial vs. agricultural pollution) but is absolutely better than nothing. We live in a spot with between 1-2000 pounds of pollution per year. A spot 25 minutes away that many might suggest we could get a slightly better deal on housing has several MILLION pounds of pollution per year (of course I know that pollution travels & knows no county line, but again, harm reduction rather than elimination).

 

I do think industrial pollution is a HUGE contributor to human illness . . . I mean most obviously, more cancer equals more chemotherapy equals more immunocompromise and much industrial pollution consists of very much established carcinogens. <3

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#33 of 59 Old 07-28-2013, 05:39 PM
 
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Bumping this up because a relevant article recently came out. Barbara's on my wavelength! http://www.nvic.org/nvic-vaccine-news/july-2013/witch-hunting-jenny-mccarthy-for-vaccine-talking.aspx

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#34 of 59 Old 07-29-2013, 01:20 PM
 
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Another relevent article today - not specific to women debating vaccine safety but about any women who are vocal online and the abuse they are often subjected to as a result: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23488550


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#35 of 59 Old 01-26-2015, 08:05 PM
 
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Reviving! The topic came up in another thread and I thought I'd revive so we can continue the discussion.
I'm a feminist. For years I've been troubled by the media's frequent use of "stay at home mommies vs. Doctors" picture. Frontline pitched it like this years ago but I've seen it a lot since then. I've always wondered what it is about being a mother that instantly disqualifies us as thinking, intelligent, capable people.

Let's keep this thread going!
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#36 of 59 Old 01-26-2015, 08:08 PM
 
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"Whatever pro-vax are fond of saying doesn't matter."
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#37 of 59 Old Yesterday, 06:48 AM
 
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Quote: Originally Posted by kathymuggle


And many, as we know, have no choice and resort to giving their sick children Tylenol and sending them to school, where they infect everyone else.

.

A bit off topic, but I find the above comment very enlightening. So, there are people out there who vaccinate their children, thinking they are doing their part in 'protecting the herd' yet will still dose with Tylenol and send a sick kid off to school thereby infecting others in the very herd they are trying to do their part in protecting. Fascinating. This deserves its own thread.

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#38 of 59 Old Yesterday, 07:26 AM
 
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A bit off topic, but I find the above comment very enlightening. So, there are people out there who vaccinate their children, thinking they are doing their part in 'protecting the herd' yet will still dose with Tylenol and send a sick kid off to school thereby infecting others in the very herd they are trying to do their part in protecting. Fascinating. This deserves its own thread.
Even worse is these parents are giving Tylenol because their doctors told them to, when there are studies saying Tylenol suppresses the building of immunity by the vaccines.

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#39 of 59 Old Yesterday, 08:43 AM
 
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Reviving! The topic came up in another thread and I thought I'd revive so we can continue the discussion.
I'm a feminist. For years I've been troubled by the media's frequent use of "stay at home mommies vs. Doctors" picture. Frontline pitched it like this years ago but I've seen it a lot since then. I've always wondered what it is about being a mother that instantly disqualifies us as thinking, intelligent, capable people.

Let's keep this thread going!
Yes, how many time have we heard "you didn't get a degree with that birth" - AKA - you know nothing and NEVER will! if anything you are far to bias to very know a thing!

I don't think the "dumb" mommy idea will ever end - it's historic!

The spin is what changes. and spins and spins and spins!

Just looking at the current marketing, overwhelmingly it's geared to the fearfully NEW mommy. The media eats this stuff up! Blood sells, Fear sells, Panic is winner!

The shill-full mommy bogs, with there cookie cutter predictable rhetoric are the latest WOW.......a real dud because the result in the end is the same, TRUST Dr White Coat ,and he's overwheimly male.

The male propaganda is just as disturbing but for a whole other reason!

I don't see this ever ending. Mom's so-called "empowerment" is just lip-service and I don't see it ever going by the way side or totally gone.

The media portrait of us will change as the approach changes. When one thing doesn't work, it's get re-spun.

Frankly what I find disturbing is the lack of critical thinking among young mom (mainly 1st timers) and the trend towards what is "trendy"........that to me means reading these mommy direct dribble fests. It feeds a need, the media buys into. Big Pharma's focus groups says it's the way to go, so it does. As with everything, approach changes over time, the message remains the same. Some industries are slower to change............frankly I love feeding the focus groups!! I feed them what they want to hear!

Sure Dr. White Coat spouting well-respected authoritarian meanness isn't working, but no matter what way it's spun the end result is "authority" is right, mom is wrong!

There are things one can do but I don't think the bigger picture will change over night. Certainly I do feel we will see changes but getting the mass (and mass media) to do so takes time. I don't ever see this going away totally.

IMO!

 

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I wanted to address the sick kid/time off issue. In the fanatically capitalist society in the U.S., employers have long frowned on parents, especially women, taking time off to care for sick children. Marketing vaccines as a way to avoid taking time off, as we've especially seen with the chicken pox vaccine, actually disgusts me.

I would argue that the lack of paid sick leave in the U.S. is a greater public health threat than the 1.8% of parents signing exemption forms. Maybe vaccination will prevent chicken pox and schools and daycares, (MAYBE. The Indiana Coalition for Vaccine Choice had to call the health department to learn that 97% of children in a recent outbreak had been vaccinated), but without paid sick leave, parents are still going into work sick and Tylenoling up their contagious kids. Plenty of vaccine-targeted and non-vaccine-targeted strains of influenza are hitting even those people who've had their flu shots. But our government and drug companies are spinning things like we're going to vaccinate our way out of any meaningful social change.

(As another example, there are other vaccines that can make corrupt governments feel off the hook from their responsibility to ensure clean water and working sewer systems).

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#41 of 59 Old Yesterday, 09:02 AM
 
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I wanted to address the sick kid/time off issue. In the fanatically capitalist society in the U.S., employers have long frowned on parents, especially women, taking time off to care for sick children. Marketing vaccines as a way to avoid taking time off, as we've especially seen with the chicken pox vaccine, actually disgusts me.

I would argue that the lack of paid sick leave in the U.S. is a greater public health threat than the 1.8% of parents signing exemption forms. Maybe vaccination will prevent chicken pox and schools and daycares, (MAYBE. The Indiana Coalition for Vaccine Choice had to call the health department to learn that 97% of children in a recent outbreak had been vaccinated), but without paid sick leave, parents are still going into work sick and Tylenoling up their contagious kids. Plenty of vaccine-targeted and non-vaccine-targeted strains of influenza are hitting even those people who've had their flu shots. But our government and drug companies are spinning things like we're going to vaccinate our way out of any meaningful social change.

(As another example, there are other vaccines that can make corrupt governments feel off the hook from their responsibility to ensure clean water and working sewer systems).
and also to add to this, the "thought" that you don't want them to miss school! Oh, no.......but when "waning" is now occurring in the high school age, we may need to re-think this! (just kidding!)

Again, if you teen is sick, they can just stay home by themselves! You did your part, you vaccinated up early so you won't miss work and they wouldn't miss coloring!!

 

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Paid sick leave is important but so is recognition that employees have important responsibilities outside of the work place.

There is an attitude in some work places that if you take sick leave you might scupper your chance of advancement. During those economic times when there are more people than jobs, just because a "benefit" is offered doesn't mean they want you to use it.

I cannot tell you how many times I have gone to my children's schools and seen that a teacher was obviously ill. One time we had an IEP meeting and one of the teacher's was so ill she could not talk. I was thinking at the time, "wow, that's dedication that she came in for the meeting" but when I asked my children they said she was in the classroom all day. What possible explanation could there be for a teacher not to take a sick day and expose the children to whatever she had?

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#43 of 59 Old Yesterday, 09:56 AM
 
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Maternity/Paternity leave is a another big issue. Maybe if parents didn't have to leave their infant so early, breastfeeding would be more prevalent and they wouldn't be targeting day old babies with the Hep B vaccine . Parents wouldn't have to leave infants in daycares and would be at home to care for older siblings when sick during the mat leave.

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Maternity/Paternity leave is a another big issue. Maybe if parents didn't have to leave their infant so early, breastfeeding would be more prevalent and they wouldn't be targeting day old babies with the Hep B vaccine . Parents wouldn't have to leave infants in daycares and would be at home to care for older siblings when sick during the mat leave.
Why the association between bestfeeding and hep B?

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#45 of 59 Old Yesterday, 10:13 AM
 
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Why the association between bestfeeding and hep B?
My apologies, I could have worded that differently as I meant them as two separate issues.

I would imagine having to put an infant in daycare might impact breastfeeding.

Daycare is one of the reasons the medical community pushes the Hep B vaccine on infants.

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#46 of 59 Old Yesterday, 10:33 AM
 
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My apologies, I could have worded that differently as I meant them as two separate issues.

I would imagine having to put an infant in daycare might impact breastfeeding.

Daycare is one of the reasons the medical community pushes the Hep B vaccine on infants.
Ah yeah... I think you are right. My wife's friend that gave up BF earlier on was do to stressful job. having to pump and leaving early ended up being too much. But even if the US had a few month of leave (most places are 10 days), it would not long enough for proper BF practices. Post cold war, the US tried as hard as it could to differentiate from European countries and the birth leave is one of those differences.

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Paid sick leave is important but so is recognition that employees have important responsibilities outside of the work place.

There is an attitude in some work places that if you take sick leave you might scupper your chance of advancement. During those economic times when there are more people than jobs, just because a "benefit" is offered doesn't mean they want you to use it.

I cannot tell you how many times I have gone to my children's schools and seen that a teacher was obviously ill. One time we had an IEP meeting and one of the teacher's was so ill she could not talk. I was thinking at the time, "wow, that's dedication that she came in for the meeting" but when I asked my children they said she was in the classroom all day. What possible explanation could there be for a teacher not to take a sick day and expose the children to whatever she had?
Yea, my sister worked briefly for a major shan't-be-named box store. The Employee of the Month earned her status for coming to work with the flu.
Really inspires you to get out and go shopping more, doesn't it? Bring the kids and make sure they lick the basket handle

So I'm seeing two dimensions to this thread. First, many of us are seeing a sexist framing of the vaccine issue---Big Daddy pediatricians, (and females who work for the Establishment), patting scared little mommies on the head and telling them that everything will be OK. (This takes me back to the early days of psychology and clear through the 50s and 60s, when women were labeled "neurotic," "irrational" and "hysterical.")

Second, many of us are seeing increased pressures placed on women working outside the home to vax up their kids while maternity leave and sick leave are virtually nil.

Have I summed this up?

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#48 of 59 Old Yesterday, 06:53 PM
 
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Yea, my sister worked briefly for a major shan't-be-named box store. The Employee of the Month earned her status for coming to work with the flu.
Really inspires you to get out and go shopping more, doesn't it? Be sure to bring the kids and make sure they lick the basket handle

So I'm seeing two dimensions to this thread. First, many of us are seeing a sexist framing of the vaccine issue---Big Daddy pediatricians, (and females who work for the Establishment), patting scared little mommies on the head and telling them that everything will be OK. (This takes me back to the early days of psychology and clear through the 50s and 60s, when women were labeled "neurotic," "irrational" and "hysterical.")

Second, many of us are seeing increased pressures placed on women working outside the home to vax up their kids while maternity leave and sick leave are virtually nil.

Have I summed this up?
IMO -yes!
The solution to both is the same BIG Pharma is your friend and will help you out!!
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So I'm seeing two dimensions to this thread. First, many of us are seeing a sexist framing of the vaccine issue---Big Daddy pediatricians, (and females who work for the Establishment), patting scared little mommies on the head and telling them that everything will be OK. (This takes me back to the early days of psychology and clear through the 50s and 60s, when women were labeled "neurotic," "irrational" and "hysterical.")

Second, many of us are seeing increased pressures placed on women working outside the home to vax up their kids while maternity leave and sick leave are virtually nil.

Have I summed this up?
Where would you slide the Jenny-hate in? It is fine to dislike Jenny and the views she holds, but the equating of non-vax and "bimbo" is definitely sexism.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Yea, my sister worked briefly for a major shan't-be-named box store. The Employee of the Month earned her status for coming to work with the flu.
Really inspires you to get out and go shopping more, doesn't it? Be sure to bring the kids and make sure they lick the basket handle

So I'm seeing two dimensions to this thread. First, many of us are seeing a sexist framing of the vaccine issue---Big Daddy pediatricians, (and females who work for the Establishment), patting scared little mommies on the head and telling them that everything will be OK. (This takes me back to the early days of psychology and clear through the 50s and 60s, when women were labeled "neurotic," "irrational" and "hysterical.")

Second, many of us are seeing increased pressures placed on women working outside the home to vax up their kids while maternity leave and sick leave are virtually nil.

Have I summed this up?
Yes!!! Thank you for putting into words something I've been trying to articulate for years.
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#51 of 59 Old Yesterday, 08:28 PM
 
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Where would you slide the Jenny-hate in? It is fine to dislike Jenny and the views she holds, but the equating of non-vax and "bimbo" is definitely sexism.
Well, we're always reminded that she posed for playboy, so I think it's just your everyday misogyny.
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While I agree that there is certainly a great deal of misogyny that pertains to the whole issue of the safety and efficacy of vaccines, it's hard to deny that some of the greatest women of our age regard the current vaccine schedule for our offspring as: nothing but safe, nothing but effective, and nothing but absolutely necessary. Amy Goodman, Rachel Maddow, and Ellen Degenereras have never come out against what we dose our offspring up with.
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Anne Jividen:

Off topic alert,

Guess what?

Ellen DeGeneres is an honest to God Christian Scientist who has never been vaccinated, at least as a child. She is 57 yrs old.

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A story NOT about Jenny or Wakefield! SHOCKING!!


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...mn.html#page=1

There's something a bit sexist when we disregard women for making, quote, just emotional arguments. Mothers deserve credit for being experts on their own children; at the same time, science gets credit for knowing what may be good for children as a whole.

 

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A story NOT about Jenny or Wakefield! SHOCKING!!


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...mn.html#page=1

There's something a bit sexist when we disregard women for making, quote, just emotional arguments. Mothers deserve credit for being experts on their own children; at the same time, science gets credit for knowing what may be good for children as a whole.
Here is one full of it.
https://medium.com/the-magazine/cele...s-569de4bb88b8

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#56 of 59 Unread Today, 08:26 AM
 
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Where would you slide the Jenny-hate in? It is fine to dislike Jenny and the views she holds, but the equating of non-vax and "bimbo" is definitely sexism.
Good point. It's the women, (e.g. Jenny, Alicia, and Kristin) who get the bimbo-hatred. Jim Carrey got off scott-free. Rob Schneider takes his more than his share of irrational flack, but his penis protects him from the more sexist comments.

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There are two male British/Irish actors, their names escape me, (one was in Benny and Joon and the other one was in a boy band and then on Coronation ST) who linked their children's disabilities to vaccines. Not much in the way of media condemnation of them. I guess if I can't remember their names, there definitely wasn't much condemnation!

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Bumping this up because a relevant article recently came out. Barbara's on my wavelength! http://www.nvic.org/nvic-vaccine-new...e-talking.aspx
Just sat down with coffee to finally read this. Thank you for sharing.
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Bill Maher is another one that seems to have the penis-protection-from-hatred thing. The worst I've heard him called is "anti science". But, regardless of his stance on vaccines (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-m..._b_358578.html) he still seems to be respected by scientists like Bill Nye and others.
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