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#31 of 102 Old 08-25-2013, 07:07 AM
 
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The gentleman in Wales did not die from measles- we saw the news reports, did you miss his cause? And medical neglect at least in the states, you can sue for that but not the vaccine manufactures! When you are hospitalized and not even found to have measles sent home and die of something else- blaming it on just measles is simply not true- poor medical care counts for a death!

 

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#32 of 102 Old 08-25-2013, 07:28 AM
 
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He died from pneumonia caused by measles http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23135464
If he had not had measles he would not have died that week.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#33 of 102 Old 08-25-2013, 07:51 AM
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Grrrr
Someone (pro or antivax) please prove to me this "vax saves lives" theory. Its like me taking echinacea so I don't get cold and telling everyone echinacea saves me from cold. If someone asks me to prove this? Guess what? I wouldn't be able to.
Bah.

 


Randomized trials are what is used to determine that vaccines have a causal relationship with the reduction of the incidence of a disease. The process can be grueling, consisting of three clinical trials and often takes 15-20 years http://www.vaccineethics.org/issue_briefs/risk_safety.php

Most vaccines are rejected during this process. After a vaccine is licensed observational studies are conducted to ensure the vaccine is effective and that chances of serious adverse effects are low.

 

Historical data show how serious many of the diseases were in the past and how much many deaths were related to them. The following website has some examples http://www.livinggreenwithbaby.com/parents-guide-to-children-vaccinations/ (By the way, notice that this website is about green living). It's ironic how, as a result of vaccines being so effective in making many diseases rare, parents have started to believe that they are unnecessary. Yet, eliminating the vaccines would make the diseases return, and quite quickly as communities have seen with measles and pertussis http://www.fcs.uga.edu/cfd/cdl/docs/vaccines_exemptions.pdf

 

The arguments stated here are much stronger evidence of the effectiveness of vaccines and how they help save lives than anything I've seen about echinacea for colds http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/echinacea/an01982

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#34 of 102 Old 08-25-2013, 08:56 AM
 
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He died from pneumonia caused by measles http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23135464
If he had not had measles he would not have died that week.
He died because of the care he did not receive-he wasn't even diagnosed with measles until later- poor care- lack there of- not receiving treatment was the cause- medical neglect. Vaccines won't save you when you receive medical neglect!

Mr. Colfer-Williams had been sent home and not treated for measles nor pneumonia.


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If he had not had measles he would not have died that week.
I find your remarks not only utterly false but disturbing (given you science is not even in the medial field) that you would dare to assert that he would not have died - you must know something other do not! What week do the dizzy.gif stars say he should have died?

 

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#35 of 102 Old 08-25-2013, 09:07 AM
 
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If a child has a vaccine and it causes a seizure - that is listed as the cause. If you have your An operation and get an infection following it- it's a complication after the fact- if you are not even given treatment, like the man in Wales- it's neglect. You can die regardless if you have vaccine if you don't receive proper care/vaccines are not 100%!

Lets remember pertussis, even those vaccinated for it don't always get just a "mild" case with NO complications.

Many many women find time after time they are not immune to measles even after countless vaccinations for it.

 

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#36 of 102 Old 08-25-2013, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Bakunin, i will look into those links later when i have some time and see if there is correlation.
As to echinacea it was just a simple example to show how it is very difficult to prove object A prevented event B since if event B could have been prevented by
1. Object B or C or D ..etc etc
2. Combined with objects B or E etc etc
3. No correlation

This is why its so hard to prove at least in the realm of logic when the supposed event B NEVER happens. There is nothing we can observe in real time.
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#37 of 102 Old 08-25-2013, 04:38 PM
 
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He died because of the care he did not receive-he wasn't even diagnosed with measles until later- poor care- lack there of- not receiving treatment was the cause- medical neglect. Vaccines won't save you when you receive medical neglect!

Mr. Colfer-Williams had been sent home and not treated for measles nor pneumonia.
I find your remarks not only utterly false but disturbing (given you science is not even in the medial field) that you would dare to assert that he would not have died - you must know something other do not! What week do the dizzy.gif stars say he should have died?

 

He died of giant cell pneumonia.  It's a rare complication of measles, and it's basically fatal.  There's no treatment for it.  It's not bacterial- antibiotics won't treat it.

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#38 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 05:06 AM
 
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He died of giant cell pneumonia.  It's a rare complication of measles, and it's basically fatal.  There's no treatment for it.  It's not bacterial- antibiotics won't treat it.

Mr. Colfer-Williams was simply sent home, he wasn't diagnosed with even having measles until his postmortem, no prevention was even attempted, he was given pain meds (paracetamol).

 

He was underweight and had recently detoxing. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/swansea-man-who-died-during-4802699  Mr Rogers said it was thought one explanation for his symptoms could have been a reaction to one of the “detox drugs” he was taking and he was told to call the surgery if the problems persisted or worsened.

 

That is referred to as medical negligence in the US.


 

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#39 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 05:16 AM
 
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What type of "prevention?" No cure. No treatment. He got sick with a disease that most people will heal from without complication. Most people. Not everyone. He did not beat the odds. If he had been admitted to the hospital the same thing would have happened.
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#40 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 06:17 AM
 
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What type of "prevention?" No cure. No treatment. He got sick with a disease that most people will heal from without complication. Most people. Not everyone. He did not beat the odds. If he had been admitted to the hospital the same thing would have happened.

so you must be advocating that there should be NO hospitalization, no intervention?      you are screwed - go home and die is appropriate moral health care?!

 

they didn't even suspect he had measles, he wasn't properly treated for anything- that's not even humane! 

 

if you look into this, there is really no evidence that conclusively states that he never had the MMR, just at the time they could not find it, I know many adults that don't have any idea if they did or did not have an MMR and to find the paper work is virtually impossible too

 

I am not disputing what he died of, I am stating nothing was done to prevent him from developing worsening symptoms when they didn't even treat him for having measles, you don't just go from measles right into Hecht's, and the words "most likely" and not words you use when you are certain.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/swansea-man-who-died-during-4802699  He told the brief inquest at Swansea’s Civic Centre today that Giant Cell Pneumonia was one of the “most likely” causes of death associated with measles.

 

 

It's called "trying"  - http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/3/e57.full

 

Maybe the parent of Kali Harding should have just been sent home too according to your logic - http://www.livescience.com/39102-brain-eating-amoeba-survivor-can-speak.html


 

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#41 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 08:37 AM
 
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Tetanus is a completely different story. Is very rare, but there's no real treatment if you catch it. I don't know the death rate from tetanus off the top of my head, but vaccination is the only way to be sure you won't die if you're exposed to tetanus.

Wrong. Getting the tetanus vaccine is no guarentee you won't get tetanus, this kid did, of course you wouldn't have heard about it in the media. 

 

 

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We report the uncommon clinical course of tetanus in a completely immunized 14-year-old boy. His initial symptoms, which included a flaccid paralysis, supported a diagnosis of botulism. Preliminary mouse-test results with combined botulinum antitoxins A, B, and E, obtained from tetanus-immunized horses, backed this diagnosis. The change in his clinical course from paralysis to rigor and the negative, more specific, botulinum mouse test with isolated botulinum antitoxins A, B, and E, obtained from nonvaccinated rabbits, disproved the diagnosis of botulism. Tetanus was suspected despite complete vaccination. The final results of a positive mouse test performed with isolated tetanus antitoxin confirmed the diagnosis. Adequate treatment was begun, and the boy recovered completely.

 

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/120/5/e1355.full.html


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#42 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 08:38 AM
 
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I've already posted this in another thread a few weeks ago but here it is again.

The measles outbreak in the US in the early 90s had 55,000 cases and 123 deaths. That's a little more than 2 per 1,000 people dying from measles here, mostly children.

Measles is deadly, and one cherry picked comment from a small town doctor made over 50 years ago doesn't change that.

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#43 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 08:46 AM
 
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I've already posted this in another thread a few weeks ago but here it is again.

The measles outbreak in the US in the early 90s had 55,000 cases and 123 deaths. That's a little more than 2 per 1,000 people dying from measles here, mostly children.

Measles is can be deadly (just like any other infectious disease), and one cherry picked comment from a small town doctor made over 50 years ago doesn't change that.

I fixed the above for you. And FYI, it wasn't one doctor from the UK, it was a report in the BMJ from many UK GPs. How ever much you like to make mealses into some death sentance, it just isn't and never was.

 

I will continue to post this information, because history has been revised for the benefit of fearmongering to sell vaccines.


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#44 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 08:52 AM
 
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"I do not care that Offitt made money off his vaccine. I expect people to be paid for their work. Likewise Mercola.

I do care that the way he pushed through rotavirus seemed quite shady and laden with conflict of interest issues. I am at work - but I will dig up links later if anyone is interested.

He is also in favor of removing certain vaccine exemptions, which many people who value parental authority over medical decisions, hate. Once again we get into conflict of interest - he wants a product he made to be borderline mandatory.

Now, do people trot out Offitt frequently? Why yes, they do. Just like some people trot out Wakefield, Jenny McCarthy and Wakefield whenever the mood strikes them.

In a thread titled "Ethics regarding entire vaccination system" I think discussion on Ofiitt are very appropriate."

If you aren't critical of the money he made then why call him Dr. proffit? Surely that's not meant as a compliment when you and other anti vaxers say it. Repeatedly. Over and over. Whenever he is mentioned.

Wakefield was objectively unethical. There are rules and guidelines when performing research, especially human research, and he broke them. That's objectively unethical.

There's also a big difference between a disclosed COI and one that you try to keep a secret as Wakefield did. Generally, researchers know that if they have a disclosed COI their work is even more closely scrutinized by scientists and medical journals, as it should be.

I don't really care about Jenny McCarthy and I don't think people take her seriously anyway. I mean how could they? She talks about toxins but then gets Botox, breast implants, smokes cigarettes and admitted to having a hard time stopping while pregnant, and recently became a celebrity spokesperson for an e cigarette company. But let's green our vaccines !

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#45 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 08:58 AM
 
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"I do not care that Offitt made money off his vaccine. I expect people to be paid for their work. Likewise Mercola.

I do care that the way he pushed through rotavirus seemed quite shady and laden with conflict of interest issues. I am at work - but I will dig up links later if anyone is interested.

He is also in favor of removing certain vaccine exemptions, which many people who value parental authority over medical decisions, hate. Once again we get into conflict of interest - he wants a product he made to be borderline mandatory.

Now, do people trot out Offitt frequently? Why yes, they do. Just like some people trot out Wakefield, Jenny McCarthy and Wakefield whenever the mood strikes them.

In a thread titled "Ethics regarding entire vaccination system" I think discussion on Ofiitt are very appropriate."

If you aren't critical of the money he made then why call him Dr. proffit? Surely that's not meant as a compliment when you and other anti vaxers say it. Repeatedly. Over and over. Whenever he is mentioned.

Wakefield was objectively unethical. There are rules and guidelines when performing research, especially human research, and he broke them. That's objectively unethical.

There's also a big difference between a disclosed COI and one that you try to keep a secret as Wakefield did. Generally, researchers know that if they have a disclosed COI their work is even more closely scrutinized by scientists and medical journals, as it should be.

I don't really care about Jenny McCarthy and I don't think people take her seriously anyway. I mean how could they? She talks about toxins but then gets Botox, breast implants, smokes cigarettes and admitted to having a hard time stopping while pregnant, and recently became a celebrity spokesperson for an e cigarette company. But let's green our vaccines !

You obviously know nothing about the actual facts of the case. You should read his book. Clears up alot of bullsh**t and is backed up with clear evidence (personal corespondences etc) which he shares in his book.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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"You obviously know nothing about the actual facts of the case. You should read his book. Clears up alot of bullsh**t and is backed up with clear evidence (personal corespondences etc) which he shares in his book."

Oh sure, read a book he wrote himself to get the "truth". No potential for bias there.

I choose to believe actual scanned documentation that proves he had a MAJOR COI that he didnt disclose over " we'll Wakefield says nu uh..."

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#47 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 09:22 AM
 
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"You obviously know nothing about the actual facts of the case. You should read his book. Clears up alot of bullsh**t and is backed up with clear evidence (personal corespondences etc) which he shares in his book."

Oh sure, read a book he wrote himself to get the "truth". No potential for bias there.

I choose to believe actual scanned documentation that proves he had a MAJOR COI that he didnt disclose over " we'll Wakefield says nu uh..."

What are you afraid of? I just told you he shares "actual scanned documentaion" as well that demonstrates quite clearly how the facts where misconstrued and the truth twisted in this case. He had to write that book - it's pure self defense. When one is being slandered and his side of the story is not getting any airtime or media attention (hmm I wonder why?) a book is really the only way a person has to get out to the masses their side of the story. Anyway It's fine I know you won't read it. Your opinions and position about the entire debate have been quite clear and have been from the beginning. You choose to believe whatever supports your current viewpoint but I suppose we are all guilty of that to one degree or another. winky.gif


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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What are you afraid of? I just told you he shares "actual scanned documentaion" as well that demonstrates quite clearly how the facts where misconstrued and the truth twisted in this case. He had to write that book - it's pure self defense. When one is being slandered and his side of the story is not getting any airtime or media attention (hmm I wonder why?) a book is really the only way a person has to get out to the masses their side of the story. Anyway It's fine I know you won't read it. Your opinions and position about the entire debate have been quite clear and have been from the beginning. You choose to believe whatever supports your current viewpoint but I suppose we are all guilty of that to one degree or another. winky.gif

No I'm not going to give Wakefield a penny of my money. If someone wants to send me the book for free I might consider it.

I've read reviews on it, however. SBM has a great one on their site written by Harriet Hall if anyone is interested.

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#50 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 11:01 AM
 
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No I'm not going to give Wakefield a penny of my money. If someone wants to send me the book for free I might consider it.

I've read reviews on it, however. SBM has a great one on their site written by Harriet Hall if anyone is interested.

That's how I felt about the 2 Offit books I read - yes i did read 2 Offit books (gasp). I got them at my local library. Most libraries if they do not have a book, will find it for you on interlibrary loan.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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No I'm not going to give Wakefield a penny of my money. If someone wants to send me the book for free I might consider it.

I've read reviews on it, however. SBM has a great one on their site written by Harriet Hall if anyone is interested.

And reviews on books are just like anything else. SBM is hardly un unbiased place and Harriet Hall is hardly someone I would peg as writing an unbiased review on Andrew Wakefield. This woman not only CRAPS on anything and everything alternative as does SBM but actively and tirelessly works to discredit any and all alternative modalities.

 

Wow if I listened to drivel like hers I would believe that there is no such thing as gluten intolerance and my son would still the stoamch issues that affected him for the first year of his life and couldn't be "identified" by any of his mainstream providers. Or I would believe that acupuncture is "ridiculous" and is not a useful tool for pain management.

 

 

- That would be the same thing as saying hey Joseph Mercola or Mike Adams has written this great book review of Offit's book.


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#53 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 12:01 PM
 
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"I do not care that Offitt made money off his vaccine. I expect people to be paid for their work. Likewise Mercola.

I do care that the way he pushed through rotavirus seemed quite shady and laden with conflict of interest issues. I am at work - but I will dig up links later if anyone is interested.

He is also in favor of removing certain vaccine exemptions, which many people who value parental authority over medical decisions, hate. Once again we get into conflict of interest - he wants a product he made to be borderline mandatory.

Now, do people trot out Offitt frequently? Why yes, they do. Just like some people trot out Wakefield, Jenny McCarthy and Wakefield whenever the mood strikes them.

In a thread titled "Ethics regarding entire vaccination system" I think discussion on Ofiitt are very appropriate."

If you aren't critical of the money he made then why call him Dr. proffit? Surely that's not meant as a compliment when you and other anti vaxers say it. Repeatedly. Over and over. Whenever he is mentioned.
It rolls off the tongue better than Dr. Conflict-of interest. mischievous.gif


Wakefield was objectively unethical. There are rules and guidelines when performing research, especially human research, and he broke them. That's objectively unethical.

There's also a big difference between a disclosed COI and one that you try to keep a secret as Wakefield did. Generally, researchers know that if they have a disclosed COI their work is even more closely scrutinized by scientists and medical journals, as it should be.

You sound a bit like you are defending conflicts of interest, rather than asking for more fair and trustworthy processes in vaccine approval.

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#54 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 12:24 PM
 
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OP- Do doctors really give vaccinations with no information about contents, risk, and side affects? I've always been given a multi-page information hand out and a CHOICE as to whether I thought the vaccine was neccessary. Some we've done right away, others we've delayed, and some we've declined. I've taken my kids to several different PEDs and have never felt pressured to vaccinate. It must be hard to stand up for yourself and your kids when the medical community doesn't respect your choices as a parent. As for the ethics of the 'vaccination system'. Yeah, definately some greed/fraud going on there. I just hate for people to think that ALL vaccines are bad. I do believe that a lot of vaccines serve their purpose by providing innoculation to infectious diseases.


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#55 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 12:30 PM
 
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OP- Do doctors really give vaccinations with no information about contents, risk, and side affects? I've always been given a multi-page information hand out and a CHOICE as to whether I thought the vaccine was neccessary. Some we've done right away, others we've delayed, and some we've declined. I've taken my kids to several different PEDs and have never felt pressured to vaccinate. It must be hard to stand up for yourself and your kids when the medical community doesn't respect your choices as a parent. As for the ethics of the 'vaccination system'. Yeah, definately some greed/fraud going on there. I just hate for people to think that ALL vaccines are bad. I do believe that a lot of vaccines serve their purpose by providing innoculation to infectious diseases.

this truly is the exception, not the rule!

 

 

Not in my state and not with others I know in different other states. Most get a consent form or a decline form, and NO information at all. The package insert does not even enter into the examination room. I have found most people to be totally clueless and only know their child has gotten the "shots" ask them what ones and you get " the 2 months (insert additional months) SHOTS" no idea at all.


 

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#56 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 02:57 PM
 
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Wow...I'm surprised that health care providers would neglect to provide information! You'd think that would be a liability issue for them. I'm also surprised that parents wouldn't demand that kind of information. The only time I've ever allowed my child to get an injection without asking too many questions was in the ER when she was having breathing problems.


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#57 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 03:54 PM
 
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KS Laura... their is no such thing as liability when it comes to Vaccination. No one can be held liable for any or no information given. No one can be sued, no one can held responsible in any way shape or form. All they can do is go to the Vaccine court and beg/show government they had a reaction etc.

 

Why would a doctor bother? If they tell you anything it is just because it is a veil of "responsibility" they want you to believe they have your best interest at heart. (They may or may not) I have never been shown any real information from numerous doctors and had to insist on looking at the inserts.

 

Even the Texas vax opt out form had ridiculous info in it. They had a few mild reactions listed and even had NONE listed under the Hep B vax. Riiiiight!

 

But WHY should the government, or any doctor at any time give you accurate information? WHY? What reason would they have. There is no consequence either way, no responsibility, no nothing. If that isn't a conflict of interest, Ethics question..... what is!

 

I don't trust the ethics of anyone personally in ANY field that has nothing to loose ever and no form of accountability.

 

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#58 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 08:16 PM
 
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KS Laura... their is no such thing as liability when it comes to Vaccination. No one can be held liable for any or no information given. No one can be sued, no one can held responsible in any way shape or form. All they can do is go to the Vaccine court and beg/show government they had a reaction etc.

 

Why would a doctor bother? If they tell you anything it is just because it is a veil of "responsibility" they want you to believe they have your best interest at heart. (They may or may not) I have never been shown any real information from numerous doctors and had to insist on looking at the inserts.

 

Even the Texas vax opt out form had ridiculous info in it. They had a few mild reactions listed and even had NONE listed under the Hep B vax. Riiiiight!

 

But WHY should the government, or any doctor at any time give you accurate information? WHY? What reason would they have. There is no consequence either way, no responsibility, no nothing. If that isn't a conflict of interest, Ethics question..... what is!

 

I don't trust the ethics of anyone personally in ANY field that has nothing to loose ever and no form of accountability.

 

S

DS-13

DD-8

DD-2

"Those who are afraid retreat.
Those who are brave grow greater.
Never fear, always grow."

Sun Tzu

 

vaccines and the vac program is soooooo great, soooo vital, blab blab blab yet no federal law covers each state, no federal law requires you know what is in what you are getting or giving your child, you have no clue (at least most don't) who even made what brand is being given but you are to ask no questions and just take it, we do this for so little else (material wise) where we give up our right to sue, etc and if you don't go with the program they are out to condemn you!


 

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#59 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by KSLaura View Post

OP- Do doctors really give vaccinations with no information about contents, risk, and side affects? I've always been given a multi-page information hand out and a CHOICE as to whether I thought the vaccine was neccessary. Some we've done right away, others we've delayed, and some we've declined. I've taken my kids to several different PEDs and have never felt pressured to vaccinate. It must be hard to stand up for yourself and your kids when the medical community doesn't respect your choices as a parent. As for the ethics of the 'vaccination system'. Yeah, definately some greed/fraud going on there. I just hate for people to think that ALL vaccines are bad. I do believe that a lot of vaccines serve their purpose by providing innoculation to infectious diseases.

I can only speak from my own experiences and to an extent, those around me. My first ped did not care for the fact that I was delaying at that time. I had my daughter at a birth center so no vaccines were given (hepatis B was optional) and I was still on the fence and  sort of in denial about what I considered was a very important decision. I simply wasnt SURE about anything. Is it safe? Is my kid gonna get autism? Will she get terrible eczema response to this? (daughter was hospitalized for it for a week and it took a long time to get it under control) What if there is a terrible autoimmune response to it etc etc. Ped got antsy around my daughter's one year mark and flat out told me that she would not be able to see me any longer. Were there any productive discussion over any of this from her? No. To be fair, she did not give me any guilt trip about how I'm killing my daughter, killing those around me etc etc. She was just..very cold about it. Either do it and I get to keep her as a ped or I better start shopping for another. Second ped (the new one I found couple of weeks ago) actually recommended Dr.Sears's book (huge improvement over the first one) to me when I said I was not vaxing. She did try to lay a guilt trip (herd immunity talk) but I know better than to argue  or debate it at this stage but she respected my decision at the end and promised not to kick me out over this. So as peds go, she was one of the "cool" ones. As to stories I have heard from my own friends with kids, they already have the shots ready when they do the well visits. No permission, no going over the inserts. Basically asking parents to hold their kids while they vax.

 

KSLaura, I do not know where you live and who these docs are but that sounds awesome as hell and would certainly go a long way in rebuilding the trust factor between medical system and patients. 

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#60 of 102 Old 08-26-2013, 08:18 PM
 
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It would be like me calling Wakefield Dr. Big Nose and then in the next post say " we'll I don't actually think he has a big nose..."

It's very strange. I just call him Wakefield.

Even though calling him dr big nose is easier than calling him Dr. Spreader of infectious disease I still just call him Wakefield.

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