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#91 of 102 Old 08-28-2013, 05:31 PM
 
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So, if a doctor doesn't provide VIS ... and a vaxed kid gets some adverse side effect ... is the doctor liable?  Should they be?

first, you will be told there is no reaction!

 

NO, the dr is not liable nor is the manufacture and according to some - they are just perfect so that is why there is no need to hold anyone liable! 


 

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#92 of 102 Old 08-28-2013, 06:23 PM
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Taximom5- New outbreak of measles in Texas linked to unvaccinated cluster of people. That makes the number of cases this year about 3 times higher than last year. News about it here http://www.nbcnews.com/health/measles-outbreak-tied-texas-megachurch-sickens-21-8C11009315

 

One of the leaders of the cluster, who was against vaccines, has changed their mind and has asked people to vaccinate. Measles is one serious disease, spreads very easily, and it kills 1 in 1000 people. Food for thought I guess

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#93 of 102 Old 08-29-2013, 05:57 AM
 
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Taximom5- New outbreak of measles in Texas linked to unvaccinated cluster of people. That makes the number of cases this year about 3 times higher than last year. News about it here http://www.nbcnews.com/health/measles-outbreak-tied-texas-megachurch-sickens-21-8C11009315

 

One of the leaders of the cluster, who was against vaccines, has changed their mind and has asked people to vaccinate. Measles is one serious disease, spreads very easily, and it kills 1 in 1000 people. Food for thought I guess

I truly question a spiritual 'leader' who has to abandon her/his principles/values/morals in time of illness to succomb to the 'white coat/pharma'...how true are the values of this leader to begin with if they're abandoned in time of crisis?  The fact the 'leader' of a flock can lean one way and then the other in opposite direction, reeks of dishonesty and self doubt.   

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#94 of 102 Old 08-29-2013, 07:42 AM
 
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It is really complex in Tx. The 'leader' who is asking people to Vax also believes that MMR *no longer* contains Thimerosal. Which means she understands basically nothing around this issue & probably never has . . . 

 

Her retired FATHER is the one who supposedly harbors the problem 'views' and he has not made a public statement that I am aware of.

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#95 of 102 Old 08-29-2013, 08:01 AM
 
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I truly question a spiritual 'leader' who has to abandon her/his principles/values/morals in time of illness to succomb to the 'white coat/pharma'...how true are the values of this leader to begin with if they're abandoned in time of crisis?  The fact the 'leader' of a flock can lean one way and then the other in opposite direction, reeks of dishonesty and self doubt.   

and your core belief is centered on how great it is in the end to go someplace else, yet you fight hard to prevent that from occurring  dizzy.gif will seems only to apply as needed-IMO


 

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#96 of 102 Old 08-29-2013, 08:25 AM
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I truly question a spiritual 'leader' who has to abandon her/his principles/values/morals in time of illness to succomb to the 'white coat/pharma'...how true are the values of this leader to begin with if they're abandoned in time of crisis?  The fact the 'leader' of a flock can lean one way and then the other in opposite direction, reeks of dishonesty and self doubt.   


By now, I shouldn't be surprised by some of the statements I see here. Yet sometimes, I still am. It takes courage to change ones mind on something and for that I commend the 'spiritual leader'. Now, keep in mind that over 20 cases of the diseases have so far (more are expected) occurred in the leader's community, one of them a 4 month old baby (who is too young to receive the measles vaccine). Are you saying that if you were in the 'leader's' shoes you would stand your ground in this situation no matter what? What would it take for you to change your mind in the leader's position: 100 cases of the disease, one death, two deaths, ten deaths?

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#97 of 102 Old 08-29-2013, 08:30 AM
 
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it't NOT surprising when an ulterior kid.gif agenda is really behind the questioning whistling.gif

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#98 of 102 Old 08-29-2013, 08:41 AM
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common sense is always a good motive, and I've never hidden that :) No one should be afraid of common sense.

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#99 of 102 Old 08-29-2013, 09:44 AM
 
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parents common sense over their children's vaccine statics will always trump a green~washed disguised agenda 

 

From each according to his faculties; to each according to his needs.
 


 

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#100 of 102 Old 08-29-2013, 10:01 PM
 
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Control groups are used to determine the effectiveness of vaccines

 

It is all about how you word control group. I still say that checking one vax or vax like product against another (in the time of it trying to get licensed, not afterward) doesn't count. That is not a real placebo or control group.

 

Such as: this is a new Vaccine, but it clearly shows that it is just one type of vax against another. (Just one example)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19819004

"were cluster-randomized by dwelling to receive two doses of either modified killed-whole-cell cholera vaccine (n=52 212; 1966 clusters) or heat-killed Escherichia coli K12 placebo (n=55 562; 1967 clusters), both delivered orally.

 

Go find this:

Prevnar's only "control" group was handled by Kaiser, and it was against another experimental vaccine (understand, it means it wasn't approved for license either). Next they gave everyone a DPT shot at the same time as either experimental VAX A (Prevnar) or Experimental VAX B(even though the DTaP was all-ready out). Then they counted ALL seizures as a reaction DTP-(How could one possibly know that-2 Vaxes were given at the same time?) STILL:the groups of children who got Prevnar suffered more seizures, higher fevers, more irritability and other reactions than did the children who got the other experimental vaccine. How did this PROVE that Prevnar was safe?

 

To try to go back to the very beginning of Vaccine is where we would have to start and then we would have to pull up information on every single vaccine that exists. First Vax licensed.... then from then on ALL other vaxes are tested either against that one, or hey, another un-tested Vax ...

 WHY are they using Escherichia Coli K12 placebo for the Cholera Vaccine? Why did they give kids 2 Experimental Vaxes with DTP for safety testing?

Why not use Saline solution or heck make them drink flavored water. That would be a control group.

 

Once the first vax was deemed SAFE, then all other have failed IMO ethically since then as none has ever been done on a true non-vax, non-reactive substance.  These are called epidemiological studies, (which can be an indicator) but not proof.

 

Have you ever spend time combing through law cases in the National Vax Court? Talked to judges and parents who helped get the Compensation act passed? Talked to some of the lawyers that are representing injured parties? Learned what the judges say on paper? Looked at some of the sealed cases?

It is all there for anyone willing to take a look and way to many links to provide-

 

Did you know:

Parents of a Vax injured child are required to provide proof of vaccine injury to the court. However, proof requires prior safety studies which meet criteria of scientific proof and which show both the incidence and types of adverse reactions resulting from vaccines. Such studies have never been done, thus leaving parents in impossible situations trying to prove it to the courts. Do you know if the courts allow the licensing testing to be shown as proof? That answer might blow your mind.Do you know what NOT being allowed "Discovery" means for the Claimants coming up against the system?

 

FDA virologist Peter Reeve........ acknowledged that the FDA suspended its own independent tests of vaccine purity 15 years ago, leaving it entirely up to the manufacturers to ensure the vaccine is contaminant free."--'The Virus and the Vaccine': Atlantic Monthly

 

"Since the 1920s, virtually all continuing medical and public health education is funded by pharmaceutical companies. In fact, today, the FDA can't even tell health scientists the truth about vaccine contaminants and their likely effects. The agency is bound and gagged by proprietary laws and non-disclosure agreements forced upon them by the pharmaceutical industry."Leonard Horowitz

**Now he said this however, go look up proprietary laws, non-disclosure agreements and again, it might shock you***

 

I guess, all that to say this:

How a country, a government, a person treats its individuals that have been harmed by something purported to protect them IS something we all should be looking at. No matter how small they claim that number is.... they still count.

You claim they are almost, always safe... ok, then take a look at the other side of the coin. What happens to those that it isn't?  How does the country, & people handle them? This is my way of trying to see the entire picture and both sides help me to see if the incoming side is as clean as they claim.

This is ethics 101 to me.

 

S

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DD-8

DD-2

"Those who are afraid retreat.
Those who are brave grow greater.
Never fear, always grow."

Sun Tzu


S

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"Those who are afraid retreat.
Those who are brave grow greater.
Never fear, always grow."

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#101 of 102 Old 08-30-2013, 05:04 AM
 
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By now, I shouldn't be surprised by some of the statements I see here. Yet sometimes, I still am. It takes courage to change ones mind on something and for that I commend the 'spiritual leader'. Now, keep in mind that over 20 cases of the diseases have so far (more are expected) occurred in the leader's community, one of them a 4 month old baby (who is too young to receive the measles vaccine). Are you saying that if you were in the 'leader's' shoes you would stand your ground in this situation no matter what? What would it take for you to change your mind in the leader's position: 100 cases of the disease, one death, two deaths, ten deaths?

i am a strong advocate for my friends who come to me with their concerns over the flu vaccine....my beliefs are strong that these people need to weigh the options for themselves to make an informed decision.  When an outbreak is around, my advice isn't to immediately tell them, 'you better run out and get the shot right now, just to be safe'..   my advice to them is to take into consideration their lifestyle, and offer advice to stay healthy despite an illness going around.   Just because my elderly neighbor might have caught the flu, ended up in the hospital and died, is no reason for my friend 60miles away to get the vaccine.  I, for one, havent had a flu shot in 30yrs, and have had the flu very badly notably, once...yes, i've had mild versions of the flu that lasted two days...should my experience with having the type A 25yrs ago influence my words with people who seek advice? Absolutely not.  Does my experience with pneumocccocal pneumonia have me shouting from the rooftops to get the pneumonia vaccine? no....and i still say that that so called 'leader' isn't much of a leader.  

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#102 of 102 Old 09-01-2013, 08:32 AM
 
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Somewhere in this thread I think, I poster wondered how anyone could trust vaccines given the clear proof that pharmaceutical companies have been unethical in the past and are motivated primarily by profit......

 

I think I've posted before that I recently read "Bad Science", by Ben Goldacre. It's not only about vaccinations, or pharmaceutical companies, but it does have big sections on those (Ben Goldacre is a medical Dr in the UK - link to book on Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bad-Science-Ben-Goldacre/dp/000728487X). There are some passages in the book in which Dr. Goldacre says more eloquently than I can why I can still think vaccines are worthwhile (in fact a force for good in the many many lives they save - even accepting some risk) while I accept the evidence that in many ways big pharma is evil.....

 

I edited out some bits which might be considered making fun of alternative medical choices (also drops the word count!), but the message stays... (edited out bit noted by the []). 

 

Dr. Goldacre says: 

"Big pharma is evil: I would agree with the premise. But because people don't understand exactly how big pharma is evil, their anger and indignation get diverted away from valid criticisms [into other things]. 'Big pharma is evil' goes the line of reasoning, 'therefore [] the MMR vaccines causes autism.' This is probably not helpful. "

 

and 

 

"Witnessing the blind, seething, thoughtless campaigns against MMR [and some other things] - it's easy to experience a pervasive sense of lost political opportunities, that somehow all of our big valuable indignation about development issues, the role of big money in our society, and frank corporate malpractice, is being diverted away from anywhere it could be valid and useful []"
 
He talks in other places about 'opportunity costs' - that we as a society should be indignant about stuff to do with big pharma - but not about stuff which isn't true.... or is based on extremely weak evidence.
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