Ethics regarding entire vaccination system - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 102 Old 08-05-2013, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
ParadigmShift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Hello everyone.

I have been lurking on and off this site for last 5 years, gaining insights and learning so much from all of your posts from the time of  my pregnancy to alternative child education with everything in between. My daughter is now 4 and about to enter pre K..and yep..time to face reality on vax or rather non vax issues in my case. I officially joined the site today just to chime in my own lil two cents on this. Please understand these are my own opinions and in no way in attacking anyone else's point of view.

 

I think everyone is in agreement here that there are possible side effects/injuries when vaccination takes place. As to how much and how many is what seems to polarize both sides. I find it alarming that as long as it's "rare" (insert any fractional number of your choice here), the system itself is concluded to be OKAY. So let's say this number of people got immunized but one died or became crippled for life. In my opinion this is NOT okay. Every life is precious. And looking at how vaccinations are usually rolled out, where informed consent is as rare as unicorns, how is this justifiable? Not only that, people are usually coerced or harassed and even lied to, in order to fulfill this public health quota.  For once I would like a doctor to say " Here is the insert that came with the vaccination. The ingredient is listed and so are the possible side effects. Please weigh the risks against the benefits. I am here to answer any questions after you read it. Please let me know what you decide".

From what I have read, this type of scenario is non existent. The thinking and deciding is done for us when the medical establishment bypass this procedure. Questioning seems to be the new brand of heresy.

 

Let's take a very simple example.

Suppose there is a restaurant. Government mandates that you go and eat there on a yearly schedule. Except that it's not really the law and you can opt out, but you don't know this since employees do not apprise you of this fact. No one there shows you the menu and you don't think to ask because well, surely the food is fine since government says so. You eat what they serve and go home, to be repeated again at a later date. Then you hear about some people getting sick or dying and they are blaming the restaurant. You are not sure what to think but it makes you a bit uneasy so you start researching a little bit. You find the menu and its ingredients. Then you find out, you CANNOT sue the restaurant if they are in fact responsible. You also find out the inspections are done by some of the people who earn money through the restaurant. Any safety inspection of its food in the future will be done by the same people.

Conflict of interest does not even COVER this. This is totally unethical, How did this system came to be and why is it still in place? How is one suppose to trust anything from such establishment? The answer is for me is simple. You CAN'T.  This is not about efficacy of vaccines. Because the system is unethical, it puts EVERYTHING into a huge  question mark.

 

Not one life should be expendable for this so called vaccination mandates. Burden of proof regarding safety should be on the vaccine makers themselves because many believe immunizations are mandatory in this country. This so called herd immunity - I never asked for it. The powers that be decided that's the way it should be without my consent.  My body - my choice. It is as simple as that. I do not ask others to take the bullet for me nor will I do for others UNLESS I want to. This is not some backwards socialist country last time I checked. Vaccination is a choice and I fully intent to exercise that right, especially for my daughter.

 

I thank you all for reading.

ParadigmShift is offline  
#2 of 102 Old 08-21-2013, 03:31 AM
Administrator
 
cynthia mosher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: An Arabian kingdom far far away
Posts: 28,851
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)

Welcome to Mothering and thanks for the passionate post!

dinahx likes this.

cynthia mosher is online now  
#3 of 102 Old 08-21-2013, 06:00 AM
 
KistheMum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 173
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Speaking of pharmaceutical ethics...  Some great stuff published out of Harvard recently.  Wonder if anyone will accuse them of only getting their research from google.

 

http://www.ethics.harvard.edu/lab/featured/325-jlme-symposium
Institutional Corruption and Pharmaceutical Policy...
An Edmond J. Safra Center Symposium
Journal of Law, Medicine and Ethics
Vol. 14, No. 3 (2013)

 

Oops didn't see this had already been posted on another thread !

applejuice likes this.
KistheMum is offline  
#4 of 102 Old 08-21-2013, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
ParadigmShift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thank you for such a warm welcome. I admit I was in avoidance for a while because it just seemed too much to take in all at once. (Politics/controversies surrounding vaccines)

Just for other mamas out there.. I had to take my daughter to a ped for school physical and she hasn't been to a doc since she was one. That was the time I was "fired" (albeit nicely) by that particular ped for not vaxing.
New ped was a bit wily asking as to why no vaxing..I told her due to religion. She asked which religion ..told her buddhism (I know she is not allowed to ask this) Then tried to say buddhism does not forbid vax. I replied sweetly that injection of foreign materials into our bodies goes against the attaining purity of our bodies. She had no answer to that. She said she will vax anytime if I were to change my mind. I said I will think about it if there is a huge ingredients change.
To me..it made no sense to antogonize a ped who really believes she knows best about this issue. My advice is to play along , say no but in a nonconfrontational manner.
applejuice and Taximom5 like this.
ParadigmShift is offline  
#5 of 102 Old 08-21-2013, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
ParadigmShift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh btw, daughter caught a cold two days after the ped visit. She has not had one since she was one..just goes to show you..Dr's office=not a good place to be to keep healthy
applejuice, Marnica and KistheMum like this.
ParadigmShift is offline  
#6 of 102 Old 08-21-2013, 05:52 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 156
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

So no vaccination AND no doctor visits since age 1? Don't you think that is extreme?

 

FYI there are Vaccine Information Statements that summarize nicely a lot things about vaccines. Even more detail can be found online. Certainly there are side effects to vaccines, but as you probably already know, being unvaccinated is not completely safe either.

bakunin is offline  
#7 of 102 Old 08-21-2013, 06:03 PM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,302
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakunin View Post

So no vaccination AND no doctor visits since age 1? Don't you think that is extreme?

 

FYI there are Vaccine Information Statements that summarize nicely a lot things about vaccines. Even more detail can be found online. Certainly there are side effects to vaccines, but as you probably already know, being unvaccinated is not completely safe either.

No I don't think no doctor visitis since age 1 is extreme. My two unvaccinated children first saw a medical doctor as three year olds for preschool physicals. A sick visit to a doctor was never required because they were never ill. I don't need a medical doctor to tell me my children are in perfect health and thriving.

 

Actually, being unvaccinated is perfectly safe. An immune system that has not been tampered with, ie TH1 rather than skewed to TH2, works beautifully, just as nature intended.


Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is offline  
#8 of 102 Old 08-21-2013, 07:35 PM
 
beckybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The Shattered Paradigm
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)

Hi ParadigmShift! I love your username!

I also enjoyed your restaurant analogy. How creative!

applejuice likes this.

               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

beckybird is online now  
#9 of 102 Old 08-21-2013, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
ParadigmShift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ty Becky for your kind welcome.
To respond to Bakunin:

I grew up in a culture where one goes to a doctor when one is sick. Mere sniffles or low grade fever was not considered serious stuff when I was growing up. I was "fired" from the first ped like I mentioned and while searching for a new one I lost insurance coverage due to financial difficulties. This is not to say I would not have gone to a ER or clinic and pay out of my own pocket (and I would have if the need arose) but daughter remained perfectly healthy (other than minor eczema now and then) despite being out and about all over the place with playdates and outings. Not a single incident of cold or ear infections etc etc (until the ped appt recently) I count myself blessed in this respect that she apparently has a pretty darn good immune system so far. So, do I think its excessive that she hasn't been to a ped in so long? Absolutely not. She is growing and eating well, almost always full of life and most importantly happy. You go to a doc when you are sick, no more no less. Unless she becomes seriously ill , I will keep to the yearly physicals most likely now that I do have insurance coverage.

As to the risk of vax/no vax issue..this is how I see it. Life is always about risks and choices. From the info that I have read, I simply cannot trust the powers that be that are mandating vaccinations. Efficacy or not there are huge ethical issues that bothers me. So thus I choose not to vax just by ethical reasons alone. Then when you factor in the secondary reasons (ingredients, questionable efficacy, bombardment of vax schedule)..the choice becomes much more clearer in my case. And if all else fails I tend to think of this old adage..don't fix it if it ain't broken.
ParadigmShift is offline  
#10 of 102 Old 08-21-2013, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
ParadigmShift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh..and on an ironic note it was actually some statements that was made by Offit that made me very comfortable with my decision. He said "a baby can have much as 1000 shots in a day and it would be safe" and that he likened vaccinating to wearing a car seat belt. This is the buffoon that is representing the pro vax side. 1000 shots? Seriously? And last time I checked seat belt is an inert material that does not react on a molecular level with a body.
He basically sealed the deal for me.
Btw hubby said Offit should receive 1000 shots or at least follow the mandated vax schedule to show us that it is definitely safe..you know just to prove his point.
applejuice and BeckyBird like this.
ParadigmShift is offline  
#11 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 03:53 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,102
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadigmShift View Post

 

Let's take a very simple example.

Suppose there is a restaurant. Government mandates that you go and eat there on a yearly schedule. Except that it's not really the law and you can opt out, but you don't know this since employees do not apprise you of this fact. No one there shows you the menu and you don't think to ask because well, surely the food is fine since government says so. You eat what they serve and go home, to be repeated again at a later date. Then you hear about some people getting sick or dying and they are blaming the restaurant. You are not sure what to think but it makes you a bit uneasy so you start researching a little bit. You find the menu and its ingredients. Then you find out, you CANNOT sue the restaurant if they are in fact responsible. You also find out the inspections are done by some of the people who earn money through the restaurant. Any safety inspection of its food in the future will be done by the same people.

Conflict of interest does not even COVER this. This is totally unethical, How did this system came to be and why is it still in place? How is one suppose to trust anything from such establishment? The answer is for me is simple. You CAN'T.  This is not about efficacy of vaccines. Because the system is unethical, it puts EVERYTHING into a huge  question mark.

 

 

 

I just wanted to add a bit here - MOST people first of all - have NO CLUE you can't sue! IF you mention it to a VERY Pro-vac person, simply most don't know this, few say " IF you did, they would fold and couldn't function" (as in research, etc) - BS! There are many drugs that cost far more and the research did as well, and you can sue them. I have found that those who don't understand this fall into a select category too (but not mentioning that here - just IRL what I have found) - the same ones that think you shouldn't sue have no problem with suing for drug damage!

 

 

by the way, it wasn't always this way, this inability to sue is really recent, in the past you could and some did win, but with payouts that included gag orders most case info is very locked and this info simply does not come out!!!!!!!!............IRL I live near a major vaccine manufacturing and research company and I do know they paid out $$$$$$$$$$$$$ prior to the 80's when this changed and they lobbied hard to not pay this (again tons of money went into the lobby as well), it's a very well known if you know someone who dealt precisely with this within the company I am referring to, info - you can't hardly find any of this, they paid to keep it that way, numbers that we will never know and this is only for one company! Sadly prior to the mid 80's is ancient history to most! Also what is now the "new" normal for children is drastically changed, when you have parent that were born after the 80's having children, most have no idea about lots of things that occurred and did NOT occur prior.

 

as other's have said...........Welcome.gif  and we too do not need to go to the Dr unless we really are sick and our's supports it too!

BeckyBird likes this.

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#12 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 06:03 AM
 
emmy526's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

A lot of us are still waiting for (pr)offitt to take his own medicine...is there some reason why he won't prove his own words with backing his claims by doing this to himself first?  Why won't he give himself 1000shots?   and in public no less..if he really wanted something to prove, that would be it.  I for one, would love to see him get injected with 1000viruses he hasn't been exposed to before,  and see what happens next.  He's so willing to do it to children...he oughta start with himself.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadigmShift View Post

Oh..and on an ironic note it was actually some statements that was made by Offit that made me very comfortable with my decision. He said "a baby can have much as 1000 shots in a day and it would be safe" and that he likened vaccinating to wearing a car seat belt. This is the buffoon that is representing the pro vax side. 1000 shots? Seriously? And last time I checked seat belt is an inert material that does not react on a molecular level with a body.
He basically sealed the deal for me.
Btw hubby said Offit should receive 1000 shots or at least follow the mandated vax schedule to show us that it is definitely safe..you know just to prove his point.
emmy526 is offline  
#13 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
ParadigmShift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The term "Pro"fitt just made me lol in a very sobering dark comedy kind of way. Sometimes i think about how easy it would be to just vax and not get ostracized (highly mild term here)for it bc it is a very treacherous water to tread. But i figure 3 yrs of head in the sand is enough and if i cant protect my daughter, who will? It really is hard at times.
applejuice likes this.
ParadigmShift is offline  
#14 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 08:55 AM
 
Mirzam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Outside the hive mind
Posts: 7,302
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

If I were a pro-vaxer, I would find Dr Offit a huge embarrassment with this claim. No one in their right mind would give a baby 1000 vaccines. Actually, I believe the figure that Offit claimed is safe is 10,000 vaccines. When questioned on the lunacy of that comment, he claimed he meant 10,000 antigens.

 

 

.

applejuice likes this.

Rainbow.giftstillheart.gifsmile.gif

 

"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

Mirzam is offline  
#15 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 08:57 AM
 
KistheMum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 173
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

If I were a pro-vaxer, I would find Dr Offit a huge embarrassment with this claim. No one in their right mind would give a baby 1000 vaccines. Actually, I believe the figure that Offit claimed is safe is 10,000 vaccines. When questioned on the lunacy of that comment, he claimed he meant 10,000 antigens.

 

.

 

I believe you are correct.  His original claim was 10,000 and then he  changed it to 1,000.  Apparently he thought this was somehow less ridiculous.

 

One would hope people would see statements like that and it would get them started thinking for themselves.  Always looking for the silver lining...

applejuice likes this.
KistheMum is offline  
#16 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
ParadigmShift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh dear@10000 antigens

My common sense says hell NO that aint safe for anyone let alone a baby. How is the body suppose to deal with all that? When i was 18, i had a tetanus booster shot. which made me promptly black out and collapse within 5 min while writing out a payment check. That is just ONE antigen that stopped a blood flow to my brain.
applejuice likes this.
ParadigmShift is offline  
#17 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 10:04 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 156
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

No I don't think no doctor visitis since age 1 is extreme. My two unvaccinated children first saw a medical doctor as three year olds for preschool physicals. A sick visit to a doctor was never required because they were never ill. I don't need a medical doctor to tell me my children are in perfect health and thriving.

 

Actually, being unvaccinated is perfectly safe. An immune system that has not been tampered with, ie TH1 rather than skewed to TH2, works beautifully, just as nature intended.


I think Offit et al (it wasn't just him who made the 10,000 statement) misspoke. The original paper can be found here http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124.full

The paper addressed the concern of parents about giving children multiple vaccines. Note (from link) that the paper was published in 2002, when the 'new movement against vaccines' was not yet too established. Perhaps that is why the authors chose poorly how to word their argument?

 

We've never had to take our kid to the emergency room. And he hasn't had much more than a simple fever or flu. We don't medicate our child whenever his temperature goes slightly up or anything like that. But we did take him to the doctor for routine checks on his growth, weight and other things. Just in case there was some kind of irregularity we could take care of it as quickly as possible.

 

Now, I quoted the post above mostly because of the following statement "An immune system that has not been tampered with, ie TH1 rather than skewed to TH2, works beautifully, just as nature intended". It seems clear to me that things are just not that simple.

An untampered immune system works beautifully? That implies that medicine and science overall is unnecessary. That if you fall and get a deep gash, there will be no infection, and that perhaps the wound will completely heal itself. The other part of the statement "just as nature intended" also sounds strange. If we were to live the way nature intended, shouldn't we be living in trees, caves at best, with no houses to protect us from the environment and the weather? Nature does not seem to always be best. If that'd be the case our life expectancy would still roam around 30-40 years old, as it did at the beginning of the 20th century.

 

Vaccines are not a perfect alternative. Anyone who says that this is case is simply wrong. But I'm afraid the same goes for the no vaccine alternative, it is not perfect either. Of course a lot of people against vaccines have a reached the conclusions that it is the best alternative, but they have done so by arguing that it is the perfect alternative. The perfect alternative claim for no vaccines is, without any doubt, wrong.

bakunin is offline  
#18 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 10:39 AM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakunin View Post


I think Offit et al (it wasn't just him who made the 10,000 statement) misspoke. The original paper can be found here http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124.full

The paper addressed the concern of parents about giving children multiple vaccines. Note (from link) that the paper was published in 2002, when the 'new movement against vaccines' was not yet too established. Perhaps that is why the authors chose poorly how to word their argument?

 

We've never had to take our kid to the emergency room. And he hasn't had much more than a simple fever or flu. We don't medicate our child whenever his temperature goes slightly up or anything like that. But we did take him to the doctor for routine checks on his growth, weight and other things. Just in case there was some kind of irregularity we could take care of it as quickly as possible.

 

Now, I quoted the post above mostly because of the following statement "An immune system that has not been tampered with, ie TH1 rather than skewed to TH2, works beautifully, just as nature intended". It seems clear to me that things are just not that simple.

An untampered immune system works beautifully? That implies that medicine and science overall is unnecessary. That if you fall and get a deep gash, there will be no infection, and that perhaps the wound will completely heal itself. The other part of the statement "just as nature intended" also sounds strange. If we were to live the way nature intended, shouldn't we be living in trees, caves at best, with no houses to protect us from the environment and the weather? Nature does not seem to always be best. If that'd be the case our life expectancy would still roam around 30-40 years old, as it did at the beginning of the 20th century.

 

Vaccines are not a perfect alternative. Anyone who says that this is case is simply wrong. But I'm afraid the same goes for the no vaccine alternative, it is not perfect either. Of course a lot of people against vaccines have a reached the conclusions that it is the best alternative, but they have done so by arguing that it is the perfect alternative. The perfect alternative claim for no vaccines is, without any doubt, wrong.

Really? where are all the people that say it is the PERFECT alternative? Save for a very select few members here, MOST people state that they understand that there are risks with both choices, but that for their situation, for their families, based on their risk/benefit analysis, they feel NOT vaccinating is the BETTER (nor perfect) alternative for them.

applejuice and Jennyanydots like this.

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#19 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 10:39 AM
 
Marnica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,585
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
double

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

Marnica is offline  
#20 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
ParadigmShift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I really think it all comes down to trust and personal experiences (negative or positive) with medical system as a whole. This is not a black/white issue and ultimately it rests on the individual to decide or in our case, acting as a proxy for our children. My OWN experiences/ observations /research says the system is untrustworthy. However for other mamas who choose to vax have had different interpretations and experiences, thus has opposing viewpoints and certainly has the right to what they think is right for their children. At the end of the day, vax or no vax, we are all striving for the same thing.
applejuice likes this.
ParadigmShift is offline  
#21 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 02:33 PM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadigmShift View Post

I really think it all comes down to trust and personal experiences (negative or positive) with medical system as a whole. This is not a black/white issue and ultimately it rests on the individual to decide or in our case, acting as a proxy for our children. My OWN experiences/ observations /research says the system is untrustworthy. However for other mamas who choose to vax have had different interpretations and experiences, thus has opposing viewpoints and certainly has the right to what they think is right for their children. At the end of the day, vax or no vax, we are all striving for the same thing.

Something we can all agree on.

However....

I really wish people would move on from making fun of Dr Offitt though. It doesn't help make a respectful vibe on these boards to make fun of high profile members of either side of the debate.

I personally don't find Dr. Offitt embarrassing. He's putting himself out there with a viewpoint which angers a lot of people, and which I think he believes to be true.

It is a fact that the immune system can handle 1000 different antigens at once. The old small pox vaccine contained 3000 different antigen I believe. That's different from 3000 needle sticks of course.

Lets debate the facts, not attack the personalities. smile.gif

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is online now  
#22 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
ParadigmShift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The issue with Offitt...its very hard to take him seriously. Not only is he condescending/patronizing he makes huge blanket statements that simply defies common sense, at least with me. He sort of reminds me of provax version of Alex Jones. Neither man is helping the side they are purported to be on with their way out there radicalism.
applejuice and dinahx like this.
ParadigmShift is offline  
#23 of 102 Old 08-22-2013, 02:54 PM
 
emmy526's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
emmy526 is offline  
#24 of 102 Old 08-24-2013, 09:05 AM
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,282
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)

I kind of find this hatred of Paul Offit amusing and somewhat baffling.  

 

People act as if he woke up one morning and made millions of dollars doing nothing.  It was for over 20 years worth of work and research.  Why shouldn't he make money for helping create a vaccine that is estimated to save hundreds of children's lives a day? He earned what he made, it's called making a living and reward for hard work. 

 

Close to 600,000 children a year die in poor countries from rota virus and he has saved thousands upon thousands of lives.  What a monster! 

 

For comparison, here is Dr. Mercola's mansion 

 

 

Want to guess how he made his fortune? Here's a hint, it's not from practicing medicine.  He has made himself a wealthy man (millionaire) selling dietary supplements and vitamins online.  

 

Here is Wakefield's luxury home that includes an indoor gym, 6 bathrooms, and 5 acres of land. 

 

 

 

But let's criticize Paul Offit eyesroll.gif


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#25 of 102 Old 08-24-2013, 09:26 AM
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,282
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Here's a letter written by Offit

"In an email correspondence with David Brown August 18, 2009, Dr. Paul Offit writes:

David,

CHOP sold its patent for $182 million. This information was made publicly available and was published in the Philadelphia Inquirer at the time. The inventors, Fred Clark, Stan Plotkin, and me split 10 percent of that three ways. This means that we each received about $6 million. It was a ridiculous amont of money and certainly far more than any of us needs, but it is also a far cry from what has been claimed.

But the part that hurts the most is the continued claim that we did this for the money. I don’t know any scientist who does it for the money (you certainly don’t make much in salary). You do it because it’s fun and because you think you can contribute. And the reward for creating a vaccine was also never financial. The reward was watching this vaccine dramatically reduce the incidence of rotavirus hospitalizations in the US and now getting to watch the vaccine enter the developing world in countries like Mali, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Ghana, and Nicaragua. That’s why we did it.

It hurts to watch people slander me the way they do. They just don’t know me. Or any of us that work so hard to get a technology like the rotavirus vaccine to the countries where it will save the most lives.

Paul

Reprinted with permission from David Brown and Dr. Paul Offit."

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#26 of 102 Old 08-24-2013, 09:34 AM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,872
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)

I do not care that Offitt made money off his vaccine.  I expect people to be paid for their work.  Likewise Mercola.

 

I do care that the way he pushed through rotavirus seemed quite shady and laden with conflict of interest issues.  I am at work - but I will dig up links later if anyone is interested. 

 

He is also in favor of removing certain vaccine exemptions, which many people who value parental authority over medical decisions, hate.  Once again we get into conflict of interest - he wants a product he made to be borderline mandatory. 

 

Now, do people trot out Offitt  frequently?  Why yes, they do.  Just like some people trot out Wakefield, Jenny McCarthy and Wakefield whenever the mood strikes them. 

 

In a thread titled "Ethics regarding entire vaccination system" I think discussion on Ofiitt are very appropriate.

applejuice, Marnica and BeckyBird like this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is offline  
#27 of 102 Old 08-24-2013, 09:39 AM
 
dalia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,982
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
"Vaccines are not a perfect alternative. Anyone who says that this is case is simply wrong. But I'm afraid the same goes for the no vaccine alternative, it is not perfect either. Of course a lot of people against vaccines have a reached the conclusions that it is the best alternative, but they have done so by arguing that it is the perfect alternative. The perfect alternative claim for no vaccines is, without any doubt, wrong".


Who has said this? Making the decision not to vaccinate is very difficult and a decision that one continues to make every day. Who the heck said this? I want to see a quote. Arguments like this aren't even arguments. They are not about the subject at hand, they're just generalizations about a group of people who made a choice.
applejuice and Jennyanydots like this.

Wife to one amazing husband superhero.gif, SAHM to DS bouncy.gif 10/09, DS babyboy.gif 10/19,  one furbaby dog2.gif, and lots of chicken3.gif!

 
joy.gif

dalia is offline  
#28 of 102 Old 08-24-2013, 11:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
ParadigmShift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've only brought Offit up just to clarify what made me comfortable in not choosing to vaccinate. Sure I find him to be a "clown " per se but that was in response to what he has stated. If you claim to be a medical expert and is aware of what is written in the vax inserts regarding possible side effects and such...WATCH what you state in public or yeah I will call you out on it. Seatbelt reference coupled with 10000 shots/antigens safety assurance was not the smartest thing to say. I don't claim to know the dude. I can only go by how he represented himself and yeah..basically sounded like anything but an expert.
As to Wakefield I do not know much about him other than autism/mmr controversy. Mercola, not familiar with him except his name seems to pop up a lot for selling products.
applejuice likes this.
ParadigmShift is offline  
#29 of 102 Old 08-24-2013, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
ParadigmShift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Grrrr
Someone (pro or antivax) please prove to me this "vax saves lives" theory. Its like me taking echinacea so I don't get cold and telling everyone echinacea saves me from cold. If someone asks me to prove this? Guess what? I wouldn't be able to.
Bah.
applejuice and BeckyBird like this.
ParadigmShift is offline  
#30 of 102 Old 08-25-2013, 12:20 AM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Sure I'll take the bait. It's high school biology time. smile.gif

Statements that vaccinations save lives are mostly based on the historical record of case rates dropping significantly after vaccination programs are rolled out. Some anti-Vax website will use death rate charts to point out death rates (e.g. From measles) dropped a lot before vaccines - and that's true. Antibiotics and modern medical care helped improve the outcome of many diseases. But even today measles death rate is about 1/1000 (it's hard to measure as the case rates are so low, but the recent outbreak in wales had ~1000 cases and 1 death, and 1/1000 was about the rate just before vaccination programs rolled out too). If the majority of the population got measles the projection is then that hundreds would die annually from measles.

That's just measles, as an example.

Tetanus is a completely different story. Is very rare, but there's no real treatment if you catch it. I don't know the death rate from tetanus off the top of my head, but vaccination is the only way to be sure you won't die if you're exposed to tetanus.

I could go on, but there's two examples. Obviously each case (diseases/vaccine) is slightly different. Flu shots mostly save lives by reducing circulation of flu and making it less likely vulnerable people will catch flu and die from complications.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is online now  
Reply

Tags
Dont Vaccinate Before You Educate , The Virus And The Vaccine Contaminated Vaccine Deadly Cancers And Government Neglect , Vaccinations A Thoughtful Parents Guide How To Make Safe Sensible Decisions About The Risks Benefits , Saying No To Vaccines

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off