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#1 of 33 Old 08-12-2013, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Currently, a lot of research is being conducted to develop vaccines that prevent cancer in general or some types of cancer (called prophylactic).

http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/130606/srep01947/full/srep01947.html#discussion

 

Similarly malaria preventive vaccines are in the works http://www.nih.gov/news/health/aug2013/niaid-08.htm but I thought a cancer vaccine would be of more interest in the U.S.

 

If this vaccine ever comes to be, would you vaccinate your child with it?

 

 

P.S: HPV vaccine prevents this disease which may lead to cervical or throat cancer so I haven't counted it as a cancer preventing vaccine in this thread but that is certainly debatable.

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#2 of 33 Old 08-12-2013, 05:21 AM
 
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i believe my kids will be grown adults by the time anything comes of light in the vaccine making business.  And, considering the debacle surrounding the gardisil and cervarix vaccines, it will be a long time before parents are swayed on this new 'cancer' preventing strategy. 

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#3 of 33 Old 08-12-2013, 06:32 AM
 
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No. They have no clue what they are doing. 

 

 

"Cancer was practically unknown until compulsory vaccination with cowpox vaccine began to be introduced. I have had to deal with at least two hundred cases of cancer, and I never saw a case of cancer in an unvaccinated person."  Dr. W. B. Clarke

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#4 of 33 Old 08-12-2013, 10:41 AM
 
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No way

 

There are far more effective ways at preventing Cancer than thorugh a needle IMO

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#5 of 33 Old 08-12-2013, 10:41 AM
 
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double post

 

ARg everytime I post now it shows up twice - sorry!

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If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#6 of 33 Old 08-12-2013, 10:47 AM
 
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No. They have no clue what they are doing. 

 

 

"Cancer was practically unknown until compulsory vaccination with cowpox vaccine began to be introduced. I have had to deal with at least two hundred cases of cancer, and I never saw a case of cancer in an unvaccinated person."  Dr. W. B. Clarke

I agree with Mirzam. Vaccines are not tested for carcinogenicity.  Not even Gardasil.

from http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/g/gardasil/gardasil_pi.pdf:

 

"GARDASIL has not been evaluated for the potential to cause carcinogenicity or genotoxicity."  So until they do some long-term, double-blind placebo studies on vaccines and carcinogenicity, it's ridiculous to assume that they don't have the potential to cause cancer. 

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#7 of 33 Old 08-12-2013, 11:21 AM
 
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A cancer preventing vaccine is completely imaginary thing, so sure, I would give my children an imaginary vaccine.

 

It's the only kind of vaccine I'd ever even remotely consider giving them.

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#8 of 33 Old 08-12-2013, 11:53 AM
 
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What emmy526 said.

 

Would you bakunin?  Would you like your child to be among the first to get it?

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The problem with vaccines is that they require a person to have a well-functioning immune system in order for the vaccine to be effective at instigating the production of antibodies.

 

Here is my understanding of human physiology and cancer:  We have irregular cells forming all the time in our bodies.  Our immune system usually identifies and influences the removal of irregular cells and growths.  When our immune system cannot keep up with the number of irregular cells, or is not functioning well enough to identify cancerous cells, the irregular cells continue to grow unchecked.  Apparently, the oncogene that shuts off cellular growth is not functioning or disabled so the cells grow without stop.  The unchecked growth of cells is what we call cancer.

 

So, how would a vaccine work within this scenario?  

 

Even if you create a specific vaccine for each variation of cancer cells you would still need a functioning immune system for the vaccine to be effective.  Having cancer in the first place tells me that the immune system is needing some help, not more demands.  One way to understand a vaccine is this:  it's a demand that the immune system wake up and act upon the introduced material (usually a virus or bacterium).  With a tired or overtaxed immune system, the vaccine "demand" may not produce immunity because the immune system just can't respond appropriately.

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#10 of 33 Old 08-12-2013, 02:45 PM
 
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Maybe.


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#11 of 33 Old 08-12-2013, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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About 1 in 2 men will develop cancer in their lifetime and 1 in 4 will die from it. For women the numbers are about 1 in 3 and 1 in 5 respectively.

http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancerbasics/lifetime-probability-of-developing-or-dying-from-cancer

So yeah, I'd give my kid the vaccine if it existed. I doubt the serious side effects can surpass those cancer.org numbers :|

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#12 of 33 Old 08-12-2013, 08:35 PM
 
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You couldn't ever vaccinate against cancer generally, so those statistics wouldn't work. You'd have to compare it to a rate of a specific cancer, as it is a very broad category.

I fully believe that environment & occupation & lifestyle are the biggest cancer risk factors, with environment being the largest factor.

People have some power to dramatically alter their relationship with carcinogens. I am not worried about Vaxing for cancer when Joe Homeowner still huffs petrochemicals maintaining his lawn with a fumey mower, spraying RoundUp with no protective equipment, while puffing on a Newport & then comes into a home reeking of Glade Plug Ins & Yankee Candles & kept 'clean' by carcinogens before heading off to his job @ Terminex or a Coal Plant or a Plastics manufacturer, kwim? Not to mention all of the pharmaceuticals with cancer as a LISTED side effect, from Premarin to Oral Contraceptives to immunosuppressants for Psoriasis & RA . . .
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#13 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 07:23 AM
 
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Do you think they'll develop a vaccine to combat the SV-40??

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#14 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 01:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakunin View Post

About 1 in 2 men will develop cancer in their lifetime and 1 in 4 will die from it. For women the numbers are about 1 in 3 and 1 in 5 respectively.

http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancerbasics/lifetime-probability-of-developing-or-dying-from-cancer

So yeah, I'd give my kid the vaccine if it existed. I doubt the serious side effects can surpass those cancer.org numbers :|

Yes, many many of us dance with cancer within our lifetimes and many of us die from it.  I have a very hard time wrapping the huge complexity of cancer into a neat little bundle of statistics as presented above.  Applying a simple remedy of a single vaccine to that neatly wrapped bundle would be awesome, but is so far away from the reality of human cancer physiology that I wouldn't even use that approach even in a futuristic science fiction novel.  Hmmm. . . or maybe I would use it and show how well-meaning researchers and physicians unleashed an unexpected human disaster through their efforts to boost proper immune response to cancer.  Hey!  It could use SV-40 and its implications in there too!    

 

I wish it were that easy.  I really do.  I know many who have danced with cancer - are doing so now - and I personally have had 3 friends die from it.    

 

The reality is that rat studies are fascinating, and sometimes they give enough clues as to how we can replicate the results in a human clinical setting.  But rat physiology is very different than that of a human.  Watching deer and rabbits happily eating poison hemlock gave me the first clue as to the vast divide between animal studies and human in-vivo studies. So, the concept of supporting our immune function through a vaccine based on placental components is interesting, but I am not holding my breath.

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#15 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 11:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

No. They have no clue what they are doing. 

 

 

"Cancer was practically unknown until compulsory vaccination with cowpox vaccine began to be introduced. I have had to deal with at least two hundred cases of cancer, and I never saw a case of cancer in an unvaccinated person."  Dr. W. B. Clarke

 I agree with you but I totally laughed at this.

 

Cancer is not one of those things I plan to vaccinate or advance amputate for.  Thank you but no thank YOU.

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#16 of 33 Old 08-13-2013, 11:38 PM
 
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No way... I saw "I am legend"...
 

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#17 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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The question does indeed rely on the possibility of a general cancer preventive vaccine, something that at the moment seems very unlikely to be possible (there is some research on this and on preventive vaccines for specific types of vaccines). As the link in post #1 implies, it is not impossible, but much more work is needed.

However, the question about using a cancer vaccine, puts the vaccine debate in a different context: based on a disease which we all recognize as a serious danger in our children lives. The debate about current vaccines deals with many diseases that the vaccines themselves helped dramatically reduce or eliminate. These diseases caused many generations ago the fear that cancer causes on us these days. Now that these diseases have been greatly reduced, society has focused on the side effects of these vaccines, and rightfully so. The problem is when we refuse to acknowledge what the experts say about it, and instead focus on subjective opinion.

 

Anyway, a cancer vaccine would be something I would consider to give my kids. Of course I would look at the research evidence, and based on it, I would consider if the benefits outweigh the risks. I'm not sure if that's the case with the Gardasil vaccine for example. But it would be quite something if a more beneficial than harmful general cancer vaccine would ever come to be. According to the numbers in post 11, at least when it comes to a general cancer preventive vaccine, the chances of harm would need to be very high to not make the vaccine worthwhile

 

For some specific cancers, well breast cancer affects 1 in 9 women in the western world, so a breast cancer vaccine would have to be quite risky to decide against it too

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#18 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 03:19 PM
 
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However, the question about using a cancer vaccine, puts the vaccine debate in a different context: based on a disease which we all recognize as a serious danger in our children lives. The debate about current vaccines deals with many diseases that the vaccines themselves helped dramatically reduce or eliminate. These diseases caused many generations ago the fear that cancer causes on us these days. 

 

This is very disease dependent.  I doubt something like chicken pox or rubella (unless you were pregnant) in past generations caused the amount of fear cancer causes today.  Something like diphtheria might have - although I do not buy that vaccination is  a key contributor to todays low diphtheria rate in developed nations.  


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#19 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 03:58 PM
 
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If a safe and effective preventive treatment existed for cancer, why would you not use it?
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#20 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 04:55 PM
 
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A preventative & a treatment are two different things. The nature of 'cancer' is not such that it can be treated as one disease. It also thrives in a weakened immune system. Also define safe & effective. Oopherectomy can totally prevent ovarian & partially prevent breast cancer, but there are so many great reasons to keep my ovaries.
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#21 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 08:02 PM
 
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If a safe and effective preventive treatment existed for cancer, why would you not use it?

 

Many of us use safe and effective preventative action every day of the week.  We detox.  We eat organically.  We don't let umbilical cords get cut right away.  We breastfeed.  We use homeopathic medicine.  We don't inject ourselves or our children with toxins that hinder the immune system and cause developmental disorders.

 

My previously recurring cancer hasn't come back in over 8 years, and I have no fear of it ever coming back or having any other kind of cancer.

 

I'd say it's been a lot more effective at both treatment and prevention than anything allopathic medicine ever did for me.

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#22 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 08:36 PM
 
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I just wonder if people are getting hung up on the word "vaccine" here.

There are a ton of preventative things that we do - just look at how we talk about breastfeeding. We push breast feeding and delayed cord clamping for much smaller benefits then the ones we're talking about in this thought experiment.

So put it another way, what would you do to prevent cancer? Would you take medicine? Would you take a dietary supplement? Would you follow a diet? Would you accept an injection?

This is a hypothetical question, so it seems not that interesting to me - assuming a totally safe miraculously effective shot that reduced the risk of cancer and had no adverse effects, yes, of course. I'd sign up the whole family. (I'm also considering when to have a second mastectomy, so that I don't have to worry as much about recurring cancer, or get more surgery to maintain the reconstruction. Or maybe just so I don't have to finish the reconstruction.) I'd sell it on street corners. No one should have to go through this.

This shot doesn't exist, and is probably impossible. But if it existed? Of course I'd be on board.
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#23 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 09:35 PM
 
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I just wonder if people are getting hung up on the word "vaccine" here.

.

Perhaps.  I think they are also getting hung up on cancer.  The idea that any drug could prevent all or most cancers is very much beyond the scope of our understanding of cancer.  

 

Now, is it possible that in my lifetime they will invent a drug that prevents cancer?  Sure, anything is possible.  I will probably not be the first taking it, however.  I am pretty cautious where drugs are concerned.  Might I pay for it?  Yes, I might.  I might wander around at greater risk for cancer because of my reluctance.  OTOH, people who jump on new drug invention also take risks - risks that the drug will not be safe.  We have seen it before with many prescriptions.  

 

In any event, I would look just as reluctantly at a new cancer prevention injestible drug  as I would an injection.  


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#24 of 33 Old 08-14-2013, 09:48 PM
 
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Cancer isn't a monolithic disease and there's no one monolithic prevention or treatment for it, so this seems on the order of a hypothetical question not worth considering. The discussion of "curing cancer" drives me bonkers. Every cancer is different. Even two cancer patients with the same type of cancer won't necessarily respond to the same treatment. What the 'race for the cure' really is, is fundraising to discover more possible treatments. 

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#25 of 33 Old 08-15-2013, 01:56 AM
 
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It looks like many cancer have enough in common ... CD47, a protein, found on the surface of cancerous cells that acts as "dont-eat-me" signal to our immune system.  They're developing anti-CD47 antibodies and starting clinical trials soon. 

 

More here:

http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2013/may/cd47.html

http://stemcell.stanford.edu/CD47/

 

 

On a related note ... broad-spectrum anti-viral study:

http://www.ll.mit.edu/news/DRACO.html


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#26 of 33 Old 08-15-2013, 05:45 AM
 
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I just wonder if people are getting hung up on the word "vaccine" here.

There are a ton of preventative things that we do - just look at how we talk about breastfeeding. We push breast feeding and delayed cord clamping for much smaller benefits then the ones we're talking about in this thought experiment.

So put it another way, what would you do to prevent cancer? Would you take medicine? Would you take a dietary supplement? Would you follow a diet? Would you accept an injection?

This is a hypothetical question, so it seems not that interesting to me - assuming a totally safe miraculously effective shot that reduced the risk of cancer and had no adverse effects, yes, of course. I'd sign up the whole family. (I'm also considering when to have a second mastectomy, so that I don't have to worry as much about recurring cancer, or get more surgery to maintain the reconstruction. Or maybe just so I don't have to finish the reconstruction.) I'd sell it on street corners. No one should have to go through this.

This shot doesn't exist, and is probably impossible. But if it existed? Of course I'd be on board.


I think one difference between a lot of the measures you mention, and a cancer-preventing vaccine is that most of those measures are health-promoting (a positive action) whereas the hypothetical vaccine would be cancer-fighting (a negative action), and putting something positive and strengthening into our bodies is a lot more appealing than putting something aggressive into our bodies.  Also, the pharmaceutical industry has earned itself a bit of suspicion.

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#27 of 33 Old 08-15-2013, 06:23 AM
 
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I think one difference between a lot of the measures you mention, and a cancer-preventing vaccine is that most of those measures are health-promoting (a positive action) whereas the hypothetical vaccine would be cancer-fighting (a negative action), and putting something positive and strengthening into our bodies is a lot more appealing than putting something aggressive into our bodies.  Also, the pharmaceutical industry has earned itself a bit of suspicion.

 

I have put a lot of aggressive things into my body to fight cancer.  They were not appealing, or particularly safe. (Although I find chemo requires less self-control of me then sticking to a diet does, which makes it "easier" in some subjective sense.)  If I could spare my kids the experience of cancer by simply imposing on their self-control to sit still for one shot, I would absolutely do it.

 

I agree that the pharmaceutical industry has earned some suspicion, but since the shot we're talking about is imaginary, I'm free to imagine that it's perfect.

 

I think the line you draw between "positive and strengthening" and "aggressive" is interesting, but I personally find that line very fuzzy.  When I get a cold and take vitamin C to help my body fight it, that's both positive and strengthening, AND aggressive (I'm supporting my body in fighting a virus).  When I get a vaccine, I'm teaching my immune system to fight a disease.  When I talk about making my body stronger, I am often considering increasing my aggressive capabilities, at either a micro or a macro level. 

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#28 of 33 Old 08-15-2013, 07:04 AM
 
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My philosophy around Vax & medicine in general centers on the idea that there has never & will never be an man made intervention that is 'perfect'. Yk, the flawed products of man.

I think the idea of vaccine as teacher is very whimsical. Really I prefer to think of vaccine as possibly immune system triggering injection.
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#29 of 33 Old 08-15-2013, 07:38 AM
 
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That is kind of the point of vaccines, no? To trigger the immune system?

We all use metaphors to talk about the immune system. I guess the teaching metaphor is more whimsical than the gun metaphor, but I'm okay with that.
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#30 of 33 Old 08-15-2013, 08:28 AM
 
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That is kind of the point of vaccines, no? To trigger the immune system?

We all use metaphors to talk about the immune system. I guess the teaching metaphor is more whimsical than the gun metaphor, but I'm okay with that.

Considering vaccines act as immune system cluster bombs, you could say it 'triggers' the immune system (to go haywire), I don't know of any cluster bomb that teaches though.

 

http://coto2.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/vaccines-as-%E2%80%98cluster-bombs%E2%80%99/

 

http://www.beyondconformity.org.nz/hilarys-desk/can_vaccines_become_cranial_and_immunological_cluster_bombs

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