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#31 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 11:15 PM
 
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There is really no such thing as 'fully Vax'ed' because you need boosters & also, just one plane trip & fully Vax'ed in the US would be 'incompletely protected'. We have UK, AUS, & NZ members & fully Vax'ed means something different in each country.

No one gets ALL the available Vaxes there are SO many, including some in development, it would be unwise to get all of them w/o regard to situation, from any medical POV.

So I am with those who say that Vaxing according to the CDC or your state's requirements, (often not the same!) is making a selection amongst all the available Vaxes in the world, based on the recommendations of an advisory group or the laws of a state . . .
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#32 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 04:00 AM
 
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But there is still a fundamentally different mindset between someone whose baseline is no vaxes and might choose a couple, and someone whose baseline is following the schedule and might delay a couple. shrug.gif

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#33 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 04:42 AM
 
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^Just in the US, neither of those mind sets IMO enjoys real legal protection, just as an aside. The only two stances that enjoy legal protection are full on time compliance with state mandates and full abstinence. So what someone who delays a few has in common with someone who accepts a few, IMO, is that they are both possibly going to have their stance questioned by the relevant powers.

Non-vax'ers could have this happen too, but only really in custody actions (by spouse or state). Or epidemics. In all other cases, they are really protected by US legal history around this issue. And of course the only ones who would question on time schedule compliance would be other parents, not authorities. /OT

ETA: True non-vax'ers tho, are as hard to find as the Dodo, IMHO: I don't think very many of us could say 'no child of mine has ever had any Vax, nor have I'
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#34 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 07:33 AM
 
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TC Moulton, it's not personal. It's factual. Compliant parents have countless resources to help them, on and offline. Not so for those of us who make different decisions. Complaining about MDC not offering support for vax-compliant parents is like standing in a vast forest and complaining about a tree you don't like. But whatever. shrug.gif It doesn't seem that complaints of any kind are going to reverse this latest forum change.
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#35 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 07:35 AM
 
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Somebody really needs to do something about this duplicate posting issue. Marnica, if you're lurking, I'm glad I'm not the only one!
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#36 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 09:46 AM
 
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Something I think I have in common with ALL the regular posters on here is that not that many mamas think about Vax & Vax issues deeply & all the time. But we all do!

And to address the Pharma issue just for a moment, I see ProVax posters saying we are calling them PharmaShills all the time but I find that to be less than accurate.

However we DO KNOW, for a fact, that paid forum posters exist on the Internet, that entities like G*tes are attempting to observe & control Vax discourse online AND that Pharma *does* employ 'online reputation managers' (we know they are used by big formula especially & that is really a pharm product). So in a spirit of protection of all of our real members, we should ALL be on the lookout! I want this to be a place where any parent can discuss Vax issues without being fearful of people reporting us to a corporation or non-profit advocacy group.

The only thing that tips my radar is when someone new comes here, ONLY to 'debunk' the VaxSafety types & advocate for the CDC Schedule & never discloses anything personal really & has no posts in other forums. IDK why that type of behavior wouldn't trip everyone's radar . . .

It certainly hurts everyone's 'cause'. There is a huge difference between being a Mothering member who is fiercely ProVax & coming here exclusively for that purpose.
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#37 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 10:01 AM
 
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Actually neither side is completely correct, so I say go back to one forum and let them beat the hell out of each other with their smarmy come backs and ability to refute each other with facts.  namaste.gif

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#38 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 10:40 AM
 
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LOL! Can we have a sub forum entitled: 'CageMatch'? 

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#39 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 02:38 PM
 
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Here's my opinion:

 

I'm Not Vaccinating................................support only

Selective/Delayed Vaccinating............support only

Vaccinating On Schedule.....................support only

Vaccination Discussion and Debate...anyone can participate

 

I enjoy support only forums, and I'm sure other members do too. I also enjoy the debate section (sometimes lol). It did seem like the Mindful Vaccination forum was a little too "pro-schedule", and maybe the selective/delayed members did not feel comfortable there. I also understand the need for a support section for the pro-schedule members too. 3 different support forums might please everybody!

 

Whatever happens, I will show my support by following the rules in the support only sections. I hope others share the same consideration.


 
 
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#40 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 03:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

Here's my opinion:

I'm Not Vaccinating................................support only
Selective/Delayed Vaccinating............support only
Vaccinating On Schedule.....................support only
Vaccination Discussion and Debate...anyone can participate

I enjoy support only forums, and I'm sure other members do too. I also enjoy the debate section (sometimes lol). It did seem like the Mindful Vaccination forum was a little too "pro-schedule", and maybe the selective/delayed members did not feel comfortable there. I also understand the need for a support section for the pro-schedule members too. 3 different support forums might please everybody!

Whatever happens, I will show my support by following the rules in the support only sections. I hope others share the same consideration.

I second this. It seems simple to me!

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#41 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 03:54 PM
 
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Bill Gates, Bill Gates, Bill Gates. 😱

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#42 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 05:00 PM
 
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Bill Gates, Bill Gates, Bill Gates. 😱

It's true though. Can't argue with the truth.


 
 
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#43 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 05:20 PM
 
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Bill Gates, Bill Gates, Bill Gates. 😱

Isn't this a little mock-y? I mean, link: http://www.vaccineconfidence.org/about.html

Even if one is not concerned about a never-elected rich dude taking over education & hyping DepoProvera & suveilling the Internet for Vax rep (while simultaneously owning a LOT of Pharma stock) it isn't crazy to have concerns about that.

In any case, his projects in this area prove that there is interest in these types of projects @ high levels. And as one of the places where mamas talk about Vaxes & a publically index'ed site, that our discourse could be targeted.
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#44 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I need to clarify what I said here as it was not worded well and may be misunderstood:

The Vaccinations Discussion forum will be the place for people who support fully vaccinating on schedule. Since the internet and the world in general is, on the whole, supportive of parents who vaccinate, we don't see the need for a support only forum. That said, we will not host posts who attack or criticize a parent for deciding to vaccinate. 

 

Vaccinations Discussion will be a general forum for anyone and everyone to discuss vaccinations, not only those who vaccinate on schedule. Anyone can post a question and anyone can respond to a question and participate in the discussion. 


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#45 of 214 Old 08-17-2013, 07:31 PM
 
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So if we post something pro-vaccine in Vaccine Discussion where we don't want people to argue with our vaccine choices, can we specify such in the thread? Or can we have a "one thread" that is support-only for us?

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#46 of 214 Old 08-18-2013, 03:18 AM - Thread Starter
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You can post a thread asking specifically for support only, yes.


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#47 of 214 Old 08-18-2013, 05:11 AM
 
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You can post a thread asking specifically for support only, yes.

 

But that doesn't mean you'll get it. 

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#48 of 214 Old 08-18-2013, 07:49 AM
 
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I think there is a difference between 'Support Only: I want to give Pentacel tomorrow' & 'Support Only: I just LOVE it when Orac disses Non-Vax'ers'
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#49 of 214 Old 08-18-2013, 08:12 AM
 
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I think there is a difference between 'Support Only: I want to give Pentacel tomorrow' & 'Support Only: I just LOVE it when Orac disses Non-Vax'ers'

I think the guidelines are pretty clear that that is not allowed on any area of the vax forum. And I also think that if there is a thread that is support only for those who vaccinate on schedule then folks who come on with another agenda should be flagged.

I don't think it's hard! At least I would like to think so. Isn't it possibly NOT to hate on each other?

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#50 of 214 Old 08-18-2013, 11:44 AM
 
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Here's my opinion:

I'm Not Vaccinating................................support only
Selective/Delayed Vaccinating............support only
Vaccinating On Schedule.....................support only
Vaccination Discussion and Debate...anyone can participate

I enjoy support only forums, and I'm sure other members do too. I also enjoy the debate section (sometimes lol). It did seem like the Mindful Vaccination forum was a little too "pro-schedule", and maybe the selective/delayed members did not feel comfortable there. I also understand the need for a support section for the pro-schedule members too. 3 different support forums might please everybody!

Whatever happens, I will show my support by following the rules in the support only sections. I hope others share the same consideration.

This is the simplest solution, and from a moderating perspective, is likely to cause the least amount of trouble for everyone. Seems like a no-brainer.

I think Mothering is trying to show some disapproval for vaccinating parents, and it is for this reason they are configuring the forums the way they are. They don't want to disallow vaccination discussion completely, just make it feel uncool.
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#51 of 214 Old 08-18-2013, 12:29 PM
 
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I think Mothering is trying to show some disapproval for vaccinating parents, and it is for this reason they are configuring the forums the way they are. They don't want to disallow vaccination discussion completely, just make it feel uncool.
I don't get that impression at all- it really just seems like a very mainstream choice that doesn't generate as much need for support. And since it is encompassed by one of the other choice options, when support is needed, scheduled vaccinators can use that forum.
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#52 of 214 Old 08-18-2013, 03:20 PM
 
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I am new here as a member, however have been reading the vaccination forums for nearly a year. As someone who was looking for information regarding vaccinations, it seemed more balanced to view the discussion and debate forum because I feel like both sides were being represented. Many Mamas here have definitely done their homework and put a lot of time in making themselves informed on this topic. To have two forums for discussion and debate will muddy the waters for people who stumble upon MDC (like me :-)) to find information and reasonable discussion. Will the discussion end on one forum just to be moved and debated on the other? That would be a lot of following around for observers (lurkers).

Support forums are definitely valuable for people looking for a little understanding that they may not get or even feel comfortable asking for IRL. I joined for this very reason. I think about vaccines, their ingredients, the schedule, the business of, the government involvement, etc., all the time. I've read many books about it and am looking for information about them everyday. I mean, its kind of ridiculous how many things I now see related to vaccines so I come here for info and support. You all often post new news, policies and other information before I see it anywhere else. I hope each of you 'regulars' know how valuable your contribution to the discussion of this topic is. I'm speaking to those of you both for and against vaccines. I'm sure you've helped families make more informed decisions on what is best for them and not to mention what you may learn from one another. I am so grateful this is here!

I don't see a quote button but here I would quote BeckyBird's suggestion and say "yeah that."

Thank you.
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#53 of 214 Old 08-18-2013, 04:56 PM
 
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I don't get that impression at all- it really just seems like a very mainstream choice that doesn't generate as much need for support. And since it is encompassed by one of the other choice options, when support is needed, scheduled vaccinators can use that forum.

 

yeahthat.gif Neither do I

 

there is tons of support for those who vac, IRL, media, and on other sites compare that to those who choose not > like 0 support

 

I have never seen a post that is about "how much my family supports me vaccing but yet I feel I NEED more support" I have only seen the complete opposite irked.gif


 

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#54 of 214 Old 08-18-2013, 11:53 PM
 
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Vaccinating may be mainstream in "mainstream" parents, but that is not what we're talking about. We're talking about "Mothering Mamas" who vaccinate. We're talking about parents who make natural parenting choices and choose to vaccinate.

I can't tell you how often people have assumed my family don't vaccinate when they see our other parenting and lifestyle choices. We are also learning there are places where not vaccinating (or very selectively vaccinating) are the norm (I think Boulder recently came up, also some US private schools have recently been in the news for this). So there are places where choosing to vaccinate may be the minority choice.

My point is it doesn't matter what's mainstream over the whole population. People live in much smaller peer groups.

I certainly don't feel mainstream on these vaccination boards.
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#55 of 214 Old 08-19-2013, 05:41 AM
 
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Seeking validation is not the same as seeking "support" for a issue. The simply do not mean the same thing.
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#56 of 214 Old 08-19-2013, 06:13 AM
 
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Vaccinating may be mainstream in "mainstream" parents, but that is not what we're talking about. We're talking about "Mothering Mamas" who vaccinate. We're talking about parents who make natural parenting choices and choose to vaccinate.

I can't tell you how often people have assumed my family don't vaccinate when they see our other parenting and lifestyle choices. We are also learning there are places where not vaccinating (or very selectively vaccinating) are the norm (I think Boulder recently came up, also some US private schools have recently been in the news for this). So there are places where choosing to vaccinate may be the minority choice.

My point is it doesn't matter what's mainstream over the whole population. People live in much smaller peer groups.

I certainly don't feel mainstream on these vaccination boards.

You make some interesting points, that prompt the following questions:

Why do you feel the need to label your choice to follow the recommended vaccination schedule as "natural parenting?"

And where do you think MDC should draw the line?

Do you think MDC should have forums for "mothering mamas who think formula-feeding is better than breastfeeding?" Or "mothering mamas who make their infants CIO?" In the not-so-distant past, those approaches were just as heavily pediatrician-recommended as vaccines, you know; they just weren't government-mandated. In fact, there's a pretty strong backlash movement in favor of formula-feeding, with industry-controlled studies supposedly showing no difference in outcome between ff and bf. Sound familiar?

Shouldn't you feel secure enough in your own medical decisions for your children--knowing that invasive procedures on a healthy child are not typically considered "Natural Parenting"--that you wouldn't need to seek validation from a natural parenting forum for those particular choices? Why aren't the rest of your natural parenting choices enough for you to feel validated as a "Natural Parent?" Why is it so important for you to debate what you perceive as the necessity for everyone to vaccinate--and to debate this on a natural parenting forum? To me, that hardly seems like a search for a place to feel mainstream with "natural parenting" choices.
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#57 of 214 Old 08-19-2013, 06:33 AM
 
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You make some interesting points, that prompt the following questions:

Why do you feel the need to label your choice to follow the recommended vaccination schedule as "natural parenting?"

And where do you think MDC should draw the line?

Do you think MDC should have forums for "mothering mamas who think formula-feeding is better than breastfeeding?" Or "mothering mamas who make their infants CIO?" In the not-so-distant past, those approaches were just as heavily pediatrician-recommended as vaccines, you know; they just weren't government-mandated. In fact, there's a pretty strong backlash movement in favor of formula-feeding, with industry-controlled studies supposedly showing no difference in outcome between ff and bf. Sound familiar?

Shouldn't you feel secure enough in your own medical decisions for your children--knowing that invasive procedures on a healthy child are not typically considered "Natural Parenting"--that you wouldn't need to seek validation from a natural parenting forum for those particular choices? Why aren't the rest of your natural parenting choices enough for you to feel validated as a "Natural Parent?" Why is it so important for you to debate what you perceive as the necessity for everyone to vaccinate--and to debate this on a natural parenting forum? To me, that hardly seems like a search for a place to feel mainstream with "natural parenting" choices.

eyesroll.gif Who made you the judge of what qualifies as "natural parenting"? Isn't that part of the point of MDC--that different people will make different choices, and support is available for more than one choice? What skin is it off your nose if fully-vaccinating parents have a place to talk about it? 

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#58 of 214 Old 08-19-2013, 06:39 AM
 
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eyesroll.gif Who made you the judge of what qualifies as "natural parenting"? Isn't that part of the point of MDC--that different people will make different choices, and support is available for more than one choice? What skin is it off your nose if fully-vaccinating parents have a place to talk about it? 

I agree with Taxi - have - forums for "mothering mamas who think formula-feeding is better than breastfeeding?" Or "mothering mamas who make their infants CIO?"

 

If it's one big tent - you include CIO and FF just as she stated, IF motherings view of natural means things that are un-natural don't exclude other topics!

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#59 of 214 Old 08-19-2013, 07:42 AM
 
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Computers and smartphones and digital photo contests are not so very natural.  Mothering.com embraces non-"natural" choices when it suits them.

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#60 of 214 Old 08-19-2013, 08:31 AM
 
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eyesroll.gif  Who made you the judge of what qualifies as "natural parenting"? Isn't that part of the point of MDC--that different people will make different choices, and support is available for more than one choice? What skin is it off your nose if fully-vaccinating parents have a place to talk about it? 

Ah, but you're making the assumption that I'm the one making the call that vaccination--an invasive procedure--is not a part of "natural parenting," and you're further assuming that I don't want vaccinating parents to have a place to talk about it.

Again--where do you think MDC should draw the line?

Do you think MDC provide a forum for mothers who feel its more important to get breast implants than to breast feed? Or a forum for non-religious parents who think all boys should be circumcised? It used to be routine to remove tonsils, too--another invasive procedure that was supposed to protect children from worse outcomes, that continued for decades.

In this thread, I am not arguing whether or not vaccines are safe or effective. I am only pointing out that, as an invasive procedure, vaccines cannot be defined as part of "natural parenting." Doesn't mean it's wrong to vaccinate, doesn't mean vaccinating parents shouldn't have a place to discuss it. Doesn't mean that you can't be a "natural parent" in other ways if you vaccinate your children.

It does mean that it would be inconsistent for MDC to host a forum for people to market vaccination, or any other invasive medical procedure done on healthy infants.
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