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#121 of 214 Old 08-21-2013, 07:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

OMG people.  Does it really matter who tells a newbie that there is thimerosal in some flu vaccines?  No, it doesn't.  

 

If it bothers you dreadfully when you see someone posting correct information in a 100% non-hostile way in either forum simply because they play for the other team, I think you need to ask yourself why, and if you have played any part in the polarisation and hostility.  Most people here want to help those looking for information, period.  

Kathy I wanted to address this because I was one of the people that said I didn't get why vaxers post in INV andf visa versa. Anyway While I totally agree with you, I have been on these boards since 2008 and here is the sad reality imo - I don't think it is possible for all members to post in a 100% non hostile way in the "other" forum. There are members who do so very appropriately and there are those that don't and can't seem to keep it a nice pleasant conversation. Given that there are new people coming and going around here all the time, I just don't see how it is constructive. Maybe Ive become cynical, but 5 years of observation has shown me this is just how it is, so maybe its better for the forums to really serve the people they were designed for?? On the other hand, this only serves to further polarize the issue. There just doesn't seem to be any easy solutions.

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#122 of 214 Old 08-21-2013, 07:13 AM
 
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double

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#123 of 214 Old 08-21-2013, 07:14 AM
 
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double post


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#124 of 214 Old 08-21-2013, 08:39 AM
 
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Kathy I wanted to address this because I was one of the people that said I didn't get why vaxers post in INV andf visa versa. Anyway While I totally agree with you, I have been on these boards since 2008 and here is the sad reality imo - I don't think it is possible for all members to post in a 100% non hostile way in the "other" forum. There are members who do so very appropriately and there are those that don't and can't seem to keep it a nice pleasant conversation. Given that there are new people coming and going around here all the time, I just don't see how it is constructive. Maybe Ive become cynical, but 5 years of observation has shown me this is just how it is, so maybe its better for the forums to really serve the people they were designed for?? On the other hand, this only serves to further polarize the issue. There just doesn't seem to be any easy solutions.

This is why I think there should be three forums for INV, MV, and vaccinating on schedule. And in fact, I'd love to see the debate forum fall into the abyss never to return. It almost always gets stupid. How is that constructive? If it weren't here I think a lot of those folks who come here with the intent to polarize will look for somewhere else to go. Just my two cents!

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#125 of 214 Old 08-21-2013, 09:47 AM
 
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IDK, I really get a lot out of the debate forum. I am well past being comfortable with my personal choices, I want to participate in the conversation as it moves forward, as new data comes to light, etc.

 

I actually think that although this debate has been happening for @ least 100 years, that someday we will move forward and start working for true reform, etc. . . . 

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#126 of 214 Old 08-21-2013, 09:57 AM
 
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IDK, I really get a lot out of the debate forum. I am well past being comfortable with my personal choices, I want to participate in the conversation as it moves forward, as new data comes to light, etc.

I actually think that although this debate has been happening for @ least 100 years, that someday we will move forward and start working for true reform, etc. . . . 

Well you are probably right. I just get frustrated that it seems to always get personal. From both sides.
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#127 of 214 Old 08-21-2013, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I intended to respond to several posts earlier on but never got the chance. Now the conversation is 126 posts long and it would take some serious time to respond to everything. As well, the conversation seems to have come around and around about things so I'll just respond to a few recent posts that caught my eye.

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I have felt out of place because MV doesn't allow posts that are critical or questioning of vaccination. I'm very selective at this point because I'm scared and skeptical about the choices we have because of the incomplete information we are given, and my lack of faith in those who provide (relatively superficial and unsatisfactory) reassurances. There are huge marketing campaigns aimed at snuffing out vax skepticism and promoting confidence. That's very fishy to me- why expend the effort on packaging instead of conducting the studies that would provide real reassurance- if they really would?
This attitude of doubt and concern leads many to eschew the full schedule while still selecting to give a few vaccines we consider important enough to risk. Likewise, it leads others to cautiously space out and delay vaccinations. But this attitude was clearly not welcome in the MV forum, where support for vaccination had to be unequivocal or posts were flagged, moderated, and edited.

It's just not fair to force this kind of polarization. My impression is that the vax forums here are meant to be a friendly and safe place for people to sort out their concerns and research surrounding the issue of childhood vaccines. Instead, we're getting mired down in an atmosphere of political correctness that demands an establishment of different philosophies and equal representation for all.

If it were my website, I'd make one single forum and allow all types of discussion as long as it remained respectful and genuine. Those who have made their decisions and only wish to be preachy to others would be kept in check, to make sure there is room for all voices.

 

I'm not sure of the history of what you are talking about but I can say that we do not have a policy of no criticism or questioning of vaccinations in the Mindful Vax forum. That wouldn't make any sense because it is home for selective and delayed vax parents to discuss their topics of interest and concern. I know I've heard from several members that they feel uncomfortable in MV because of the very strong provax voices that take over many discussions. This is exactly the reason I decided it would be best to return the forum to S&D. But "MV doesn't allow posts that are critical or questioning of vaccination" is not correct. If you were moderated for criticizing or questioning vaccinations in the MV forum send me the PM you received from the moderator and I'll look into it. 

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No, you misread my post. I don't see the reason for a non-vaxer to post in MV to give information that could easily be provided by someone else. If as the thread gets underway nobody else has made that point, that's one thing, but I see quite a few posts in MV where the very first person off the trigger is a non-vaxer. And I just don't get that. I was posting in response to Marnica who made a similar point in her post. 

 

INV members were told they should stick to their forum they align with. The same was told to MV members. Choose where you fit in best and stay there. That was the message given to everyone. If some people got away with things it was because we either didn't know about it or our mod coverage was spread thin and we didn't get to things, or we PMed the member and asked them to stop but left the post up. 

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Pretty sure it was originally defined that if you no longer plan to vaccinate that you shouldn't post in Mindful Vaccination.

I have seen a few times where vaxing moms have posted correct info in INV and they were immediately told to leave. You can't have it both ways.

 

It has occurred from both sides to both INV and MV and they were both told to stop. If nothing was posted to the thread directly that doesn't mean we did not address it. We have been clear about this matter with everyone in both forums. 

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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Perhaps you should examine why you think it's important to censor certain posters in MV, based on how many vaccines their children got, or how recently they've gotten them.

 

Surely the truth of the message is more important than shooting the messenger?

 

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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

OMG people.  Does it really matter who tells a newbie that there is thimerosal in some flu vaccines?  No, it doesn't.  

 

If it bothers you dreadfully when you see someone posting correct information in a 100% non-hostile way in either forum simply because they play for the other team, I think you need to ask yourself why, and if you have played any part in the polarisation and hostility.  Most people here want to help those looking for information, period.  

 

It is very evident to us that when someone from MV steps into INV - and vice versa - to offer info, arguments usually ensue. So in offering what you regard to be the "truth" sets the stage for debate. Debate in the support forums can only be had between the members of that forum for their needs as nonvaxxers, s&d vaxxers and on schedule vaxxers. 

 

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Originally Posted by japonica View Post

 

I posted in MV but part of the issue is also that in a forum that states it allows for Mindful Vaccination, including S&D, then it creates a vibe of intolerance to start and allow threads deriding "anti-vaxers" for refusing or questioning vaccines. Um, many of us S&D folks decline certain vaccines and we also are very critical of them, both with the products offered and the schedule. So, is it particularly welcoming and tolerant to have links back to pro-vaccine blogs that take potshots at parents for doing much of the same thing we are. No, not really.

 

Such posting is what our new policies for support forums will not allow. 

 

 

I want to thank everyone for sharing their opinions and experiences. I'm sure that no matter what we do we will still have issues with that "vibe" of  intolerance and will just have to figure out how we can best work as a mod team to prevent that early on in discussions to nip it in the bud.

 

I want to revisit our proposed plan and all of your comments again and think things through. We should have a clear plan to proceed soon. Thanks for your patience.


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#128 of 214 Old 08-21-2013, 09:27 PM
 
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As an "experienced" lurker and an official newbie here who has had other forum experiences...in my humble opinion, vaxing issue will always polarize and divide regardless of how many politically correct named subforums exist or be created. Feelings will get hurt, heckles raised everyone on a defensive posture because..well it's human nature to want to defend one's actions and choices..and yes as some posters have said..validated. That makes oneself feel secure and reassured and knowledgeable about the subject in hand. I recall an incident in another forum where subject of abortion was debated..and needless to say it got ugly real quick, myself included. I realized I can't be worrying about how another person chooses to make certain choices regarding hot button issues. They made theirs, and I've made mine. Judgment on others solely because they conflict with your own is blatant disrespect. I am a nonvaxer but I have no wish to encroach or judge or change vaxers minds on here. That is ON them if they wish to.
I support all the mamas here. They are all here bc they CARE about their families. So whether subforums are created or no I just wish we all remember WHY each member chose to sign up and log on to this site.
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#129 of 214 Old 08-22-2013, 09:33 PM
 
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I've been a regular in INV and MV. I selectively vax but actually felt more at home in INV.

1. I can discuss vax policies there that can't be debated or discussed elsewhere per forum rules.
2. They're really, really non-judgmental of my vax choices. If any of them quietly think I'm nuts for vaxxing my kids, they haven't told me so in my many years on this forum. So long as parents are making thoughtful choices with all relevant information, and so long as their vax choices aren't in jeopardy, INV regulars really don't care what I do.
3. They're active on INV. MV/Del-Sel stays pretty stagnant until a newbie has a question about doses, scheduling, exemptions, etc. At that point, I'm OK providing info, but I love being part of the discussions in INV and do NOT go into that forum to pick fights or antagonize others for their choices. Also, the higher activity level gains more instant response to vax concerns, as well as more people responding.

So, I really hope I'm not put in a position of having to choose between forums. I also still hope that I can post on SDV because that is what I've chosen for my family.

CM, shouldn't comments be considered on a post-by-post basis? Shouldn't the question be less, "Which team is this person on?" and more, "Is this particular post supportive and helpful?" If Taximom and Prosciencemum share the same info, (yes, it could happen! lol.gif ) should it matter which one of them said it? It might be a more efficient and fair way to moderate if the focus is on individual posts instead of thought-policing individual motives and beliefs.

Just musing...

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#130 of 214 Old 08-22-2013, 10:23 PM
 
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I've been a regular in INV and MV. I selectively vax but actually felt more at home in INV.

1. I can discuss vax policies there that can't be debated or discussed elsewhere per forum rules.
2. They're really, really non-judgmental of my vax choices. If any of them quietly think I'm nuts for vaxxing my kids, they haven't told me so in my many years on this forum. So long as parents are making thoughtful choices with all relevant information, and so long as their vax choices aren't in jeopardy, INV regulars really don't care what I do.
3. They're active on INV. MV/Del-Sel stays pretty stagnant until a newbie has a question about doses, scheduling, exemptions, etc. At that point, I'm OK providing info, but I love being part of the discussions in INV and do NOT go into that forum to pick fights or antagonize others for their choices. Also, the higher activity level gains more instant response to vax concerns, as well as more people responding.

So, I really hope I'm not put in a position of having to choose between forums. I also still hope that I can post on SDV because that is what I've chosen for my family.

CM, shouldn't comments be considered on a post-by-post basis? Shouldn't the question be less, "Which team is this person on?" and more, "Is this particular post supportive and helpful?" If Taximom and Prosciencemum share the same info, (yes, it could happen! lol.gif ) should it matter which one of them said it? It might be a more efficient and fair way to moderate if the focus is on individual posts instead of thought-policing individual motives and beliefs.

Just musing...


The bolded is how I feel. Saying, "you can't post here because of the team you are on" creates more polarization in my opinion.

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#131 of 214 Old 08-28-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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CM, shouldn't comments be considered on a post-by-post basis? Shouldn't the question be less, "Which team is this person on?" and more, "Is this particular post supportive and helpful?" If Taximom and Prosciencemum share the same info, (yes, it could happen! lol.gif ) should it matter which one of them said it? It might be a more efficient and fair way to moderate if the focus is on individual posts instead of thought-policing individual motives and beliefs.

Just musing...

 

I wish it were that simple. It would make things much easier for us as mods. But the thing is, most of you post feeling you are being helpful and offering important info the OP needs to hear. Or are correcting information you feel is wrong - which itself is meant to be helpful. Right? So most everyone is posting to "help" but we end up with disagreements, debates, and a bunch of flags in the moderation queue. So it does seem to work out better for the mod team if everyone just stays in their support group. 

 

That said - there is the option of the support forums going to Groups. There you can moderate as you see fit and boot someone out if you feel their posting is not supportive for your group's purpose. That would really make things easier for us and maybe everyone can learn to post as the group expects you to. Any thoughts on that?

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#132 of 214 Old 08-28-2013, 08:36 AM
 
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That said - there is the option of the support forums going to Groups. There you can moderate as you see fit and boot someone out if you feel their posting is not supportive for your group's purpose. That would really make things easier for us and maybe everyone can learn to post as the group expects you to. Any thoughts on that?

 

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#133 of 214 Old 08-28-2013, 09:01 AM
 
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I wish it were that simple. It would make things much easier for us as mods. But the thing is, most of you post feeling you are being helpful and offering important info the OP needs to hear. Or are correcting information you feel is wrong - which itself is meant to be helpful. Right? So most everyone is posting to "help" but we end up with disagreements, debates, and a bunch of flags in the moderation queue. So it does seem to work out better for the mod team if everyone just stays in their support group. 

That said - there is the option of the support forums going to Groups. There you can moderate as you see fit and boot someone out if you feel their posting is not supportive for your group's purpose. That would really make things easier for us and maybe everyone can learn to post as the group expects you to. Any thoughts on that?

YES.

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#134 of 214 Old 08-28-2013, 03:58 PM
 
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I wish it were that simple. It would make things much easier for us as mods. But the thing is, most of you post feeling you are being helpful and offering important info the OP needs to hear. Or are correcting information you feel is wrong - which itself is meant to be helpful. Right? So most everyone is posting to "help" but we end up with disagreements, debates, and a bunch of flags in the moderation queue. So it does seem to work out better for the mod team if everyone just stays in their support group. 

That said - there is the option of the support forums going to Groups. There you can moderate as you see fit and boot someone out if you feel their posting is not supportive for your group's purpose. That would really make things easier for us and maybe everyone can learn to post as the group expects you to. Any thoughts on that?
My thoughts on that are that the people who post on the various vax boards, while there may be a core, are also more transient than the members of a ddc, for instance. In my opinion INV has been an echo chamber and so had MV. The only time that really changes is when a new poster comes along and gets conversation going. D & D is more interesting because it isn't restricted to only people with one mindset.

I now realize that what mdc was trying to do was divide posters into groups and make them see themselves as "members" of one sub forum or the other. That did not come across clearly, and it doesn't seem appropriate for the subject matter- especially because new posters, which these forums get a lot, aren't made aware that they are posting only to one polarized group when they ask a question.

Cordoning off non vaxers and sel del vaxers in a private, membership controlled group would make them hard to find for new people looking for support for their unconventional choices. Maybe you should just make a general forum for all vax discussions and one sub forum for non/sel/del.
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#135 of 214 Old 08-29-2013, 05:51 PM
 
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I wish it were that simple. It would make things much easier for us as mods. But the thing is, most of you post feeling you are being helpful and offering important info the OP needs to hear. Or are correcting information you feel is wrong - which itself is meant to be helpful. Right? So most everyone is posting to "help" but we end up with disagreements, debates, and a bunch of flags in the moderation queue. So it does seem to work out better for the mod team if everyone just stays in their support group. 

 

That said - there is the option of the support forums going to Groups. There you can moderate as you see fit and boot someone out if you feel their posting is not supportive for your group's purpose. That would really make things easier for us and maybe everyone can learn to post as the group expects you to. Any thoughts on that?

 



Well, those Group Rules posted above in giant lettering basically say to provide support, not to "stick with your own kind." So there's not a lot of consistency.

What would you propose for the floaters, like me, who don't fit into any one category? Or will you just turn a blind eye whenever I post in INV, (even though I *am* vaccinating), because to my knowledge, nobody in there has ever flagged or even argued with one of my posts?

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#136 of 214 Old 08-30-2013, 05:58 PM
 
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I asked this - IF one follows "
the schedule"
 what kind of support are the looking for that they don't already get?


Where is that answer? I haven't seen it so that is why I asked it. All I keep reading is the need but when asked for what reason no answers appear but a repeat of the "need" - the question again is need for what? Society has the deck stacked on the side of those who vaccinate on the schedule, not on the side of those who don't follow the schedule, it's not like it's even close to even.

I'd like to be able to talk about how to support my kid through the vaccines, how to deal when so much of my social circle vehemently disagrees with me.... I'd like a space to talk about vaccine reactions without being told smugly "that's why I don't vaccinate," I'd like a space to discuss new research, new vaccines, changes to the schedule, etc., without having to argue or defend, I'd like to discuss how to catch up if/when we accidentally fall behind..... I could go on.
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#137 of 214 Old 08-30-2013, 06:14 PM
 
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I hate this "the whole world supports you, you don't need support here" deal. I'm Christian, too, and no one on Mothering has told us that because our faith is soooooooo mainstream we don't need a support-only space (which we have --- all of Spirituality is support only). There's support for caesareans here. There's support for public schooling. There is, as pointed out, a forum on TV! There's all sorts of support offered here for all sorts of mainstream choices except for the things Mothering is avowedly against (harsh discipline, circumcision) --- and (coming soon) vaccines.

Thanks so much. How is that welcoming of all choices, where there is NOWHERE I can now post asking (say) about dealing with a feverish kid after a vax, that won't leave my choices open to argument?
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ETA- since the medical community general consensus is that reactions really are so rare, if you feel your child had a reaction I really don't understand why you won't want to deal with mom's who have gone through this as in those in the INV section, they were (for the most part) told reactions don't happen and they seem quite experienced-IMO, seems like that would be the correct section, clearly not a debate topic but an area with those who have a majority of experience 

 

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I'd like to be able to talk about how to support my kid through the vaccines According to the medical community (CDC) you don't need to support your child, there is no need for it, no medical evidence supports your need to "support" your child, day old infant start with vaccinations, no "support" is required. IF the medical community feels you don't need it and INV mom's are more inclined to understand it, I don't get what exactly you need? , how to deal when so much of my social circle vehemently disagrees with me You should feel at home with the minority in the INV, that is what the majority in the INV section deal with and post about there, not only on a web site but IRL this is what most INVers face everyday, I find most are quite experienced with being the minority and face great social pressures that I know no vaccinating parents face IRL.... I'd like a space to talk about vaccine reactions without being told smugly "that's why I don't vaccinate,The CDC/medical community states reactions are super rare, if you are dealing with a reaction, INV has lots of moms that have dealt with real reactions, don't find them rare and have experience, you can't guarantee a response anyplace to what you exactly want-perhaps there is a good reason why they state because of "reactions" they no longer do and you simply don't share what they have gone through. " I'd like a space to discuss new research, new vaccines, changes to the schedule, etc., without having to argue or defend, I'd like to discuss how to catch up if/when we accidentally fall behind Unlike what those in the INV primarily deal with, the CDC has a whole schedule of how to catch up and the medical community fully supports you in wanting to do so, as do the majority of people IRL ..... I could go on. So could I.

 

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#139 of 214 Old 08-30-2013, 06:35 PM
 
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I hate this "the whole world supports you, you don't need support here" deal. I'm Christian, too, and no one on Mothering has told us that because our faith is soooooooo mainstream we don't need a support-only space (which we have --- all of Spirituality is support only). There's support for caesareans here. There's support for public schooling. There is, as pointed out, a forum on TV! There's all sorts of support offered here for all sorts of mainstream choices except for the things Mothering is avowedly against (harsh discipline, circumcision) --- and (coming soon) vaccines.

Thanks so much. How is that welcoming of all choices, where there is NOWHERE I can now post asking (say) about dealing with a feverish kid after a vax, that won't leave my choices open to argument?

I don't know that anyone can accurately give the type of information you really desire, if you only want to hear it from one prospective-only be one way. I have found many mom's in the INV have dealt with high fevers and maybe listening to experience might open your up to their struggles and you might gain some insight too.

 

I would assume that your first call/response would be to your Dr not to post on a message board as your Dr should be the one to give you advise first, that seems prudent-IMO


 

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#140 of 214 Old 08-30-2013, 07:17 PM
 
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Well, first of all, when I said "support" I was talking about kids being fearful of vaccines, crying, etc. I don't think the CDC has instructed mothers re: how to gently guide their kids through the process. There's lots of GD stuff going on with vax issues, that I'd like to talk about in a support-only way. 

 

"since the medical community general consensus is that reactions really are so rare, if you feel your child had a reaction I really don't understand why you won't want to deal with mom's who have gone through this as in those in the INV section, they were (for the most part) told reactions don't happen and they seem quite experienced-IMO, seems like that would be the correct section, clearly not a debate topic but an area with those who have a majority of experience"

 

Look, I'm an NP, so I'm part of the medical community. I was taught, and my peers agree, that reactions of fever, crankiness, malaise, and injection site pain are quite common. The CDC doesn't say that mothers shouldn't ask each other for advice about what to do with a cranky babe after vaccinations! 

 

"You should feel at home with the minority in the INV, that is what the majority in the INV section deal with and post about there, not only on a web site but IRL this is what most INVers face everyday, I find most are quite experienced with being the minority and face great social pressures that I know no vaccinating parents face IRL"

 

This is like what I posted about being Christian. Yes, I know being Christian is privileged in the mainstream community, but it can be tricky to navigate in crunchy communities. It's nice to have a safe space to talk and not be jumped on about how Christianity is a tool of the patriarchy and we're all just brainwashed by the old white men and don't we know how harmful our beliefs are, etc. And Mothering gives that, because plenty of Christians are also crunchy. 

 

"The CDC/medical community states reactions are super rare, if you are dealing with a reaction, INV has lots of moms that have dealt with real reactions, don't find them rare and have experience, you can't guarantee a response anyplace to what you exactly want-perhaps there is a good reason why they state because of "reactions" they no longer do and you simply don't share what they have gone through. "

 

I don't want to talk about my kid's mild fever with the folks of INV because I'll get snippy responses like the one you just gave me. I think a mild fever after a vaccine is normal, and not cause for panic, and maybe I'd like to talk about it with folks who can discuss the relative merits of catnip enema vs. tylenol vs. a cool bath without criticizing me or suggesting that the mild fever is part of a larger problem, which I don't believe.

 

"Unlike what those in the INV primarily deal with, the CDC has a whole schedule of how to catch up and the medical community fully supports you in wanting to do so, as do the majority of people IRL"

 

. . . but maybe I want to talk about it on Mothering? I can talk about using an IUD here. I can talk about a C-section here. I can talk about formula feeding here. I can talk about TV, Christianity, TONS of things I can get support for elsewhere here . . . why should vaccines be excluded? 

 

"I could go on. So could I."

 

Why are you so upset that I want a space on a community I value to talk about my own vaccine choices without being criticized? The entire tone of your response to me was snippy and nasty and just plain rude. What on earth did I say to set you off other than to answer a question that YOU YOURSELF ASKED, and then asked again (not politely!) complaining that no one had answered?

 

This whole thing is really EXACTLY why I'd like a support-only space for fully-vaccinating parents. 

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#141 of 214 Old 08-30-2013, 07:19 PM
 
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I would assume that your first call/response would be to your Dr not to post on a message board as your Dr should be the one to give you advise first, that seems prudent-IMO

 

fevers are normal after vaxxes. So I wouldn't need to call the doc. I would just want advice from other moms about how to calm the kid best. For example. 

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And you know, my kid nursed a lot after vaxes. I'd have appreciated a place to talk about an older kid's nursing changes, and nursing an older kid is very much in line with Mothering's ideals.

Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
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#143 of 214 Old 08-30-2013, 07:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pepperedmoth View Post


I found your posts very condescending myself. I can't grasp why you feel the need to inject religion here and find it so very out of line. I don't find those in the INV section feeling privileged but I feel you seem to be looking for your own. I don't make the rules here- I gave my opinion.

Really the religious tones in your posts and your comparison real make me support the need for the proposed changes- I'm glad to see this happening.

 

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#144 of 214 Old 08-30-2013, 07:51 PM
 
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I'm really sorry if I sounded condescending. I really really REALLY didn't mean to 'pull a religion card' or something, or have a 'religious tone'.

 

I honestly just thought it was a good analogy --- Christianity, like vaccination, is mainstream and privileged, but Christians still get support-only space on MDC, which I think is nice and appropriate and which I personally really appreciate, and no one seems to resent it (I hope!).

 

I think vaccinations should be like that. I didn't mean it to be 'injecting religion' in the sense of bringing my religious beliefs in, only that I thought it was a good analogy. I'm SO sorry if it didn't seem like that. 

 

I know I sounded a little touchy responding to you and I bet that's what came off as condescending; I was pretty hurt at the tone of your question implying that we shouldn't have support-only space. I'm sorry if I over-reacted to you. 

 

:flowersforyou

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#145 of 214 Old 08-31-2013, 12:46 AM
 
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Pepperedmoth - Mindful vaccination forum will still exist as I understand it, just renamed back to "Selective and Delayed". I think there would be no problem with the posts you mention being posted there.

Thanks for expressing well (again) why Mothering posters who vaccinate might like a support forum. smile.gif

I genuinely don't understand the objections to the idea - is it a wish to hide that there are many many crunchy mamas who vaccinate close to or on their regional recommended schedules?

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#146 of 214 Old 08-31-2013, 04:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pepperedmoth View Post

Look, I'm an NP, so I'm part of the medical community. I was taught, and my peers agree, that reactions of fever, crankiness, malaise, and injection site pain are quite common. The CDC doesn't say that mothers shouldn't ask each other for advice about what to do with a cranky babe after vaccinations! 

 

your other post you mention "reaction"and use it generically, you go on to later post  fever, crankiness, malaise, etc.

 

your assumption that only a mom who vaccinates (like you) can answer your concerns/questions - this is so off base, and frankly discriminatory! Do you do this in other sections here on mothering, must someone check a preconceived box to give you what you only want to hear? For a newbie posting here, to be told you must only get answers from a subscribed bias groups as the only way of getting "good" / accurate info is flat out wrong.

 

I'm assuming by NP you mean, nurse practitioner? if you showed such bias (say in a hospitable setting) would that be acceptable? NO, I would have grounds to speak with your supervisor and I would request you not be the one I would deal with.

 

I understand you can have a group and as some feel a "mean girl group" where you can exclude who ever doesn't fit into that box - but to make a section that can only answer a "reaction" question one sided for a newbie is not helpful and not accurate.

 

As I suggested you might want to broaden your view and look into what "reaction" a INV mom dealt with and why this changed her mind instead of simply assuming so much and as a NP I'm shocked your choose to keep your mind so closed in this regard.

 

prosciencemum is a delayed/selective in regards to US standards, and that way she fits into the new tent - it really makes it not the discriminatory (vaccing on schedule) tent you want to have but it makes where it is welcoming to others- because fevers did happen to many moms and it lead to other issues and like it or not, that is why they choose not to vaccinate

 

 

as I said, I don't any relevance to throw the religious card around

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepperedmoth View Post
 

I'm really sorry if I sounded condescending. I really really REALLY didn't mean to 'pull a religion card' or something, or have a 'religious tone'.

 

I honestly just thought it was a good analogy --- Christianity, like vaccination, is mainstream and privileged, but Christians still get support-only space on MDC, which I think is nice and appropriate and which I personally really appreciate, and no one seems to resent it (I hope!). AND they do not get a preferential section that excludes all others, I understand to be "Spirituality", not under the name Christianity, you are to welcome ALL and not box up people.

 

I think vaccinations should be like that. I didn't mean it to be 'injecting religion' in the sense of bringing my religious beliefs in, only that I thought it was a good analogy. I'm SO sorry if it didn't seem like that. 

 

I know I sounded a little touchy responding to you and I bet that's what came off as condescending; I was pretty hurt at the tone of your question implying that we shouldn't have support-only space. I'm sorry if I over-reacted to you. 

 

:flowersforyou

 

 

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#147 of 214 Old 08-31-2013, 05:00 AM
 
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Thanks, prosciencemum.

Overnight I thought of a potentially less offensive analogy! (I felt really bad about the religion thing).

I was thinking, yanno, I don't know what it's like to be a minority on vaccines, but I DO know what it's like to be a minority on something ELSE that not doing can get you into a lot of trouble. War tax resistance!

Try to evade the IRS so your money doesn't go to bombing civilians in the Middle East and you can get thrown into prison until you DO give them money to kill civilians. It sucks. The only other option is voluntary poverty, which is tricky too and there's not much social support. Lots of logistics, especially taking a young family into account.

So I was imagining that MDC had a "money matters" forum or something, and imagining that there were suddenly lots of people here that really really wanted to get into either outright war tax resistance or voluntary poverty in order to avoid war taxes. A support-only forum in that case would be fantastic, to talk about all the logistics and legal risk and how to talk to kids about why we have no money or handling being jailed or having the IRS after you.....

But then tax season rolls around, and all the folks who pay their taxes in full and on-time really really are stressed about those horrible forms, and whether to fill out the 1040a or the 1040 EZ, and feel they need a space to kibbitz.

I just....even as someone who is legit trying to figure out how to support a family while giving most of my income to charity, And even though the IRS makes whole booklets on it and you can go to a CPA and there are full size books on it and even free taxpaying workshops and software and etc.....

It would be no skin off my nose WHATSOEVER, from where I stand, to give taxpayers a support-only space to gripe and get support every tax season (or whatever)! Let's be honest: paying taxes flipping STINKS! They'd NEED some darn support! I would be TOTALLY jiggy with this idea. Might use it myself (we're like two years into a multi-year plan to financially stabilize ourselves before doing the voluntary poverty thing, so still paying). Would think it was awesome, to support people who requested it.

So..... Is that a better analogy? Maybe?
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#148 of 214 Old 08-31-2013, 05:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

 

your assumption that only a mom who vaccinates (like you) can answer your concerns/questions - this is so off base, and frankly discriminatory! 

 

That's not what I meant. I just want to discuss it with other moms in the same boat. As we've just demonstrated, even basic language like "reaction" means really different things to people in the different camps. I mean, do you think only moms in INV can answer your questions? 

 

Quote:
Do you do this in other sections here on mothering, must someone check a preconceived box to give you what you only want to hear?

 

Well, if I want to talk Montessori, YES I want a space to talk to other Montessori moms without being told that Waldorf is actually better! Isn't this kinda why we're all at Mothering? I don't want people telling me that cosleeping is bad, either, or breastfeeding, or whatever. We're ALL here because we have some preconceived boxes we'd like support for, right?

 

Quote:
For a newbie posting here, to be told you must only get answers from a subscribed bias groups as the only way of getting "good" / accurate info is flat out wrong.

 

Whoa, that's not what I was saying at all. Are we just arguing over a misunderstanding? That'd be kinda frustrating. :o So I just think that the main forum should remain for everyone, and INV should stay, and debate should stay, but if MV goes to S/D only, then I think full(er) vaxxers should have their own space. Or MV could stay the way it is, support-only for full vaxxers. That'd be fine too. 

 

Quote:
I'm assuming by NP you mean, nurse practitioner? if you showed such bias (say in a hospitable setting) would that be acceptable? NO, I would have grounds to speak with your supervisor and I would request you not be the one I would deal with.

 

Professionally I just say I'm pro-vaccine when I'm asked, and I only discuss it if the parent says they want to discuss it. What I do professionally is totally different from how I feel on a parenting board where I go for support.

 

Aside: Hey, it kind of hurt me that you insulted me professionally. I really didn't like it. Could you please not? I checked out vaccine debate a while ago and decided I HATED it because I don't like conflict that much. I'm only here now because I don't want my space taken away. I'm really trying to be gracious, and I know that I'm not doing a great job because I seem to be really setting you off, and I'm sorry about that . . . but can we at least call off the personal attacks? If I do it myself, go ahead and call me out with a quote or something from the post, and I'll apologize, like I did over the religion thing.  

 

Quote:
I understand you can have a group and as some feel a "mean girl group" where you can exclude who ever doesn't fit into that box -

 

Well, that's just it! I don't want a mean girl group!

 

Quote:
 but to make a section that can only answer a "reaction" question one sided for a newbie is not helpful and not accurate.

 

How would a pro-vax support board be any different from INV in that regard? 

 

Quote:
As I suggested you might want to broaden your view and look into what "reaction" a INV mom dealt with and why this changed her mind instead of simply assuming so much and as a NP I'm shocked your choose to keep your mind so closed in this regard.

 

Hey, I feel like I've done a lot of view-broadening. I've read a lot about the reactions INV moms are concerned about, and I just don't see things the same way. Disagreeing isn't the same as having a closed mind, right? 

 

Quote:
prosciencemum is a delayed/selective in regards to US standards, and that way she fits into the new tent - it really makes it not the discriminatory (vaccing on schedule) tent you want to have but it makes where it is welcoming to others-

 

Well, prosciencemum and I are pretty clearly in the same tent. Obviously boundaries aren't perfect! Maybe it's a 'Vaccines are Awesome' support only, or a 'mostly-fully vaxxed' support only or whatever. And how is a 'vaccinating on schedule' tent MORE discriminatory than INV (which I think isn't discriminatory at all, of course --- I support your right to it)? Anyway, I just want a support-only space.

 

 

ETA: Whoops, missed this bit!

 

AND they do not get a preferential section that excludes all others, I understand to be "Spirituality"not under the name Christianity, you are to welcome ALL and not box up people.

 

Yes, but it's clearly labelled as "SUPPORT ONLY" for all spiritualities, kinda analogous to MV now. So this feels to me as if Spirituality was becoming "support only" ONLY for non-Christians. In that case I'd react just like this; I'd request that Spirituality remain "support only" for all, OR I'd request Christians got a sub-forum. 

 

Quote:
as I said, I don't any relevance to throw the religious card around

 

Heya, I apologized for that! And then I talked about it more above, since you brought it up. Hope that's OK! I still don't quite get why that offended you, because I really only meant it as an analogy, but I hear that it did offend and I am genuinely sorry. I posted what's maybe a better analogy above. 

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That's not what I meant. I just want to discuss it with other moms in the same boat. As we've just demonstrated, even basic language like "reaction" means really different things to people in the different camps. I mean, do you think only moms in INV can answer your questions? 


Well, if I want to talk Montessori, YES I want a space to talk to other Montessori moms without being told that Waldorf is actually better! Isn't this kinda why we're all at Mothering? I don't want people telling me that cosleeping is bad, either, or breastfeeding, or whatever. We're ALL here because we have some preconceived boxes we'd like support for, right?


Whoa, that's not what I was saying at all. Are we just arguing over a misunderstanding? That'd be kinda frustrating. redface.gif  So I just think that the main forum should remain for everyone, and INV should stay, and debate should stay, but if MV goes to S/D only, then I think full(er) vaxxers should have their own space. Or MV could stay the way it is, support-only for full vaxxers. That'd be fine too. 


Professionally I just say I'm pro-vaccine when I'm asked, and I only discuss it if the parent says they want to discuss it. What I do professionally is totally different from how I feel on a parenting board where I go for support.

Aside: Hey, it kind of hurt me that you insulted me professionally. I really didn't like it. Could you please not? I checked out vaccine debate a while ago and decided I HATED it because I don't like conflict that much. I'm only here now because I don't want my space taken away. I'm really trying to be gracious, and I know that I'm not doing a great job because I seem to be really setting you off, and I'm sorry about that . . . but can we at least call off the personal attacks? If I do it myself, go ahead and call me out with a quote or something from the post, and I'll apologize, like I did over the religion thing.  


Well, that's just it! I don't want a mean girl group!


How would a pro-vax support board be any different from INV in that regard? 


Hey, I feel like I've done a lot of view-broadening. I've read a lot about the reactions INV moms are concerned about, and I just don't see things the same way. Disagreeing isn't the same as having a closed mind, right? 


Well, prosciencemum and I are pretty clearly in the same tent. Obviously boundaries aren't perfect! Maybe it's a 'Vaccines are Awesome' support only, or a 'mostly-fully vaxxed' support only or whatever. And how is a 'vaccinating on schedule' tent MORE discriminatory than INV (which I think isn't discriminatory at all, of course --- I support your right to it)? Anyway, I just want a support-only space.



Coming from privilege - your religion, vaccer and lacking what it is like to be a minority as you stated, I doubt anything will appease you- except getting what you feel you deserve or want.

 

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#150 of 214 Old 08-31-2013, 07:09 AM
 
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I gotta speak up here...

At the risk of alienating my own "side" in the INV camp, I just feel this whole thing isn't right. Why are we arguing whether or not someone needs support? Why is it threatening for them to get support? I don't get it. I DO NOT vaccinate my kids. Why? Because I think it's downright dangerous and causes more problems than good. But I feel if someone wants to vaccinate their kids I will not tell them they can't. Part of the whole fight is about parental rights. So... Why would I argue whether or not a vaxxer needs support? I can't win that argument because it's not up to me whether or not someone feels they need support. Just like it's not up to me to tell them they should/shouldn't vax.

I realize there are folks on here that have vaccine injured children and that that makes this whole debate much different than it would for me. But I still think the best way to move forward on this subject is to take a breath, lay down the weapons and try to be inclusive. If the goal is to change the hearts and minds of others, then the best way to do this is to try and understand the other side. For us, I feel it should not about "being right" but about keeping our rights. It's about letting people know that we are trying to do the best to protect our kids and we should be allowed to do that without consequence. I think in this same spirit we should allow for people who vaccinate their kids on schedule to at least be able to say that they would like support and not try and invalidate that.

Just my two cents.
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