Changes to the Vax forums - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 214 Old 08-14-2013, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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With the ongoing issues we've seen in the Vaccinations forums we've decided to make some changes. We hope this will help turn things around and make discussions more comfortable. The new set up will be as follows:

 

  • Vaccinations Discussion - standard rules, open to all, no debate 
  • Vaccinations Debate - with existing debate rules
  • I'm Not Vaccinating - support only
  • Mindful Vaccination will return to being Selective & Delayed Vaccination and will be a support only forum for members who identify as vaccinations selectively or on a delayed schedule

 

We will stay with our existing rules and guidelines for the most part. But we will be moderating things a bit differently in the support forums. In those forums we will welcome discussion of things one can do or one might need to be aware of regarding risks, research, new findings, etc., but criticisms and negative generalizations of those who make different choices are not welcome. For example, posts about how to raise awareness of concerns about vaccines or how to approach medical professionals, schools, etc. about not vaccinating, or S&D vaccination are fine, but discussions that cast other individuals or groups in a negative light are not appropriate in a support forum. We do not want the support forums to promote an us- versus-them mentality. The goal of support should be to encourage, inform and support one another without insulting, attacking, or making fun of others.

 

I'll be making these changes very soon. If you have any questions or concerns please post them here. 


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#2 of 214 Old 08-14-2013, 06:11 PM
 
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Can Non-vaxxers post in sel/delayed if they post in the spirit of the forum?

Can vaxxers post in NV if they post in the spirit of the forum?

In vaccine discussion, if things get debate-ish, should we flag?


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#3 of 214 Old 08-14-2013, 09:48 PM
 
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I like this!!! I despise the whole "us" vs "them" thing from either side and feel it serves zero purpose other than to create unnecessary conflict. Maybe this will serve to keep people that are only here to create that dynamic away from this forum. :-)

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#4 of 214 Old 08-14-2013, 11:44 PM
 
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I don't understand the difference between a discussion and a debate. You say "no debate" in the discussion forum. Could you give an example of what would be ok and what would not. smile.gif

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#5 of 214 Old 08-15-2013, 04:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I don't understand the difference between a discussion and a debate.

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one can discuss information vs debating the merits - like a debate team vs a general class on facts


 

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#6 of 214 Old 08-15-2013, 06:37 AM
 
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but discussions that cast other individuals or groups in a negative light are not appropriate in a support forum

 Can you please clarify? We have a lot of discussions on how the media or specific groups portray non-vaxxers. Is this no longer appropriate?

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#7 of 214 Old 08-15-2013, 08:16 AM
 
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I don't understand the difference between a discussion and a debate. You say "no debate" in the discussion forum. Could you give an example of what would be ok and what would not. smile.gif

I was thinking this might be the perfect place for people who are on the fence and want info, but don't want to hear people bickering at each other. I see it a lot where folks just want info but since they post in one forum or another it gets confusing.

Also, I thought it might be a place for those who fully vax on schedule to comment and post without fear of wrath.

This is just my guess!

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#8 of 214 Old 08-15-2013, 02:04 PM
 
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So there is no support for people who fully vaccinate on schedule.  That's lovely.

 

And this is not a personal complaint.  I qualify as a selective/delayed vaxer -- I gave infant vaxes on a spread-out and somewhat delayed schedule and I am delaying (at least -- possibly will end up not selecting) Gardasil.


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#9 of 214 Old 08-15-2013, 08:53 PM
 
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I too wish there were a subforum more for those who fully or mostly vax. Sel/del always seems to be full of posts either about exemptions or by people who are mostly opposed to vaccines and are just considering one or two. Which is pretty far off from fully/mostly fully vaxxed, and is an inherently different mindset. 


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#10 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 07:15 AM
 
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I think there should be a forum here for those that fully vax or practically fully vax like the previous 2 posters said. Otherwise its not really fair.  If the mods don't make one here, perhaps those folks can go to TWWS for like minded discussion or the dozens of other online forums that support vaccinating on schedule.


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#11 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 07:15 AM
 
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double post


If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#12 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 07:29 AM
 
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Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the larger message here, which is that I don't deserve a space on MDC if I vax on schedule. I have never visited TWWS but I doubt I would be happy at a website with "trolls" in the name. I've learned my lesson about snark groups and they are not the place for me. 

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#13 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 08:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by erigeron View Post

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the larger message here, which is that I don't deserve a space on MDC if I vax on schedule. I have never visited TWWS but I doubt I would be happy at a website with "trolls" in the name. I've learned my lesson about snark groups and they are not the place for me. 
[/quotel

TWWS. Yuck. They are probably snarking about me right now! LOL

It does seem unfair that there is no place for full vaxers. Even though I am a non-vaxxer I believe that inclusiveness is usually the way to go.
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#14 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 08:46 AM
 
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Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the larger message here, which is that I don't deserve a space on MDC if I vax on schedule. I have never visited TWWS but I doubt I would be happy at a website with "trolls" in the name. I've learned my lesson about snark groups and they are not the place for me. 

I'm not sure if you are saying this to me?? it's not clear from your post.

 

If so, you are misunderstanding me. There is no "message" that you don't deserve a place here.  In fact I agree with you as I said in the first line of my post, I think people that fully vax SHOULD have a forum here and it is unfair if this would not be the case. I was just pointing out that there are many many online forums where you could find support for your vax choices as an alternative - not that that would be "right" of MDC to deny you one here. I have no personal experience with TWWS. I just know they support fully vaxing. It's just the first one that popped into my head. If it is a snarky place then Im glad you don't want to go there!! This whole issue is polarizing enough. You know the old cliche - "I just wish we could all get along" orngbiggrin.gif

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AHHHHH seriously EVERY SINGLE TIME I POST, it puts up a double post!! I don't know why or what to do about it - Im sooooo sorry everyone.  I may have to stop posting at all!! dizzy.gif
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#16 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 09:04 AM
 
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Marnica, I meant the larger message on the part of MDC, not anything by you personally. I got that you are for having full vaxxers included. 

 

You might want to post in site issues or something? I think I've seen other posters with the double posting issue. 


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#17 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 11:24 AM
 
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I vaccinate on schedule too. It does look as though the new forum rules condemn this.
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#18 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Can Non-vaxxers post in sel/delayed if they post in the spirit of the forum?

Can vaxxers post in NV if they post in the spirit of the forum?

In vaccine discussion, if things get debate-ish, should we flag?

 

Yes.

Yes.

You can, but please try to have a clear idea on what we regard to be debate and what is acceptable and respectful discussion before you do flag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I don't understand the difference between a discussion and a debate. You say "no debate" in the discussion forum. Could you give an example of what would be ok and what would not. smile.gif

 

In the Vaccinations Debate forum the rules are looser, just as they were in the Vaccination Discussion and Debate forum. You can review the existing rules to understand more.

 

In Vaccinations Discussion the rules are more like that of our general forums. Be nice and keep it respectful and about the topic without any of the more pointed and challenging approach of a debate. In Vaccinations Discussion people can post to get information and advice. You can post for that purpose and to share what you know and have experienced but your posts should not be to argue with other members to try to prove your opinion. That sort of discussion goes to the Debate forum. 

 

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Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma View Post

 Can you please clarify? We have a lot of discussions on how the media or specific groups portray non-vaxxers. Is this no longer appropriate?

 

I can't give a blanket answer here. It will depend on what is being said, how, and why. If it is something in the news it may be fine. If it's a blog post that is insulting or making fun of a group, probably not. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickabiddy View Post

So there is no support for people who fully vaccinate on schedule.  That's lovely.

 

And this is not a personal complaint.  I qualify as a selective/delayed vaxer -- I gave infant vaxes on a spread-out and somewhat delayed schedule and I am delaying (at least -- possibly will end up not selecting) Gardasil.

 

The Vaccinations Discussion forum will be the place for people who support fully vaccinating on schedule. Since the internet and the world in general is, on the whole, supportive of parents who vaccinate, we don't see the need for a support only forum. That said, we will not host posts who attack or criticize a parent for deciding to vaccinate. 


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#19 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 04:28 PM
 
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I'm genuinely curious, not snarky or anything, why people who fully vaccinate on schedule require support from others for it. Is it the affirmation that you can be "crunchy" and still vax on schedule?

 

Over here, doing anything less that the full schedule is swimming upstream. The government in NSW has kicked unvaxed/undervaxed kids out of playgroups and preschool. There is a move afoot to link vaccine status to the parental Child Care Rebate (up to 50% of fees can be subsidized by the gov't) so kids who aren't UTD means parents have to pay the full costs of childcare. Families who are not UTD do not get the Family Tax Benefit (for now they're accepting Conscientious Objection holders, that may change, the move to change the term "Conscientious Objector" to "Vaccine Refuser" gives a big clue). The media here is in a constant spin of the dangers unvaxed/undervaxed kids pose for society in general and how mandatory vaccinations would amend this lack of parental responsibility. Organizations spring up to shut down any discussion (online or in person) of issues pertaining to vaccine choice, including taking groups who question the schedule to court to silence them.

 

If I vaccinated on schedule, my kids' doctor would probably applaud my good sense. The government would quit hassling us and threatening to withhold our tax benefits. The community at large who write letters to the editor stating that my parental rights should be terminated could rest easy that we've done the right thing. Hospital ER doctors would quit lecturing us and stomping off to write letters of protest to our GP. The media could rest on their laurels that their "No jab, no play" campaign was a huge success. Over here, following the schedule isn't controversial or contested ground: it's what's expected of everyone and government, doctors, schools, hospitals, media, and the community in general provide support, benefits, and accolades to parents who do what they expect.

 

FTR, we're going from no vaccinations to date to selective/delayed. Yet, despite this, we will still be considered, for government purposes, as if we're non-vaccinators because doing anything less than the full schedule is tantamount to none.

 

Edited to add: oh goody. Today it was announced that if the current government gets re-elected, the Conscientious Objection loophole for receiving the Family Tax Benefit will be closed. Nice atmosphere of intolerance building up here.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/rudd-closes-immunisation-loophole/story-e6frg6nf-1226699080977

 

 

 

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The supplement is worth $726 per child each year. Under the crackdown it is only paid once a child is fully immunised at one, two and five years of age. The government argues this provides families with an incentive of more than $2100 to ensure their children are fully immunised.

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#20 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 04:57 PM
 
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I'm genuinely curious, not snarky or anything, why people who fully vaccinate on schedule require support from others for it. Is it the affirmation that you can be "crunchy" and still vax on schedule?

 

It simply feels exclusionary to say you get a support forum where your decisions can't be questioned, and so do you, but YOU don't.

 

Requiring full vaxxers to post only in the debate and discussion forums also means that they have to open themselves up to potential criticism if they have any questions or concerns.  My daughter had her Tdap today.  If I had a question about a mild side effect (more serious questions would go to the doctor and not the Internet), there isn't any place (here) I could ask about it without it being "legal" to question my decision to give this vax at this time.  That doesn't make me feel very welcome.  It says that the only decision that is debateable is the decision to vax fully:  everything else must be respected.

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#21 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 05:04 PM
 
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I agree with you Japonica, that while people in this community who vax on schedule may want validation for and acceptance of their choice, the need for a forum devoted to supporting that choice does seem different when you consider all the social pressures on those of us who do not vax or vaccinate according to a selective or delayed schedule- and live with the fear that we will be punished for that choice or have it revoked.

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#22 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 05:04 PM
 
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Cynthia-

I like the proposed forum paradigm.  I do have one question, however: how should we determine what to post in the debate forum?  This may be a silly semantic quibble, but I don't think many of us post specifically to have our posts argued with or debated- we hope to have a discussion, but debate ensues.  I anticipate a great many threads needing to be moved or moderated because of this.  I would rather see the two general vax forums labeled something like "Vaccination Questions and Support" and "Vaccination Discussion and Debate" in order to make it clearer for those posting new threads.

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#23 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 05:24 PM
 
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It simply feels exclusionary to say you get a support forum where your decisions can't be questioned, and so do you, but YOU don't.

 

Requiring full vaxxers to post only in the debate and discussion forums also means that they have to open themselves up to potential criticism if they have any questions or concerns.  My daughter had her Tdap today.  If I had a question about a mild side effect (more serious questions would go to the doctor and not the Internet), there isn't any place (here) I could ask about it without it being "legal" to question my decision to give this vax at this time.  That doesn't make me feel very welcome.  It says that the only decision that is debateable is the decision to vax fully:  everything else must be respected.

 

I see your point. I suppose the politics of exclusion is something to take up with TPTB at Mothering. 

 

Honestly, with your example, I'd just post in the S&D forum anyway and not bother bringing up whether the Tdap was done on schedule, S&D, whatever. A question about a mild side effect is just that, and not necessarily related to the scheduled timing of the product (especially since Tdap is recommended for such a large target group and mild side effects could probably be anticipated in many different cohorts).

 

FWIW, I had the same issues of feeling unwelcome in the Mindful Vaccination forum when the "anti-vax" critical links to blog posts etc. were posted. Knowing that we're never likely to get close to the full schedule and that we have some valid concerns about the products and programs, it felt exclusionary to read links that poked at "anti-vaxers" for their perceived irrational choices. 

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#24 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 05:43 PM
 
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I've read all the above posts; but, I still don't understand why there is not a support-only forum for people who choose to fully vaccinate their child per the recommended schedule.  I know of many moms who choose to fully vaccinate but still have questions, comments, concerns, ideas, desire for discussion among like-minded people, etc.  Why is there not a place for this discussion to take place in a support-only forum?  How it is set up now, it looks like these moms must be open for debate while everyone else has the option to be open to debate or not.  It doesn't make sense.

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#25 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 06:01 PM
 
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It simply feels exclusionary to say you get a support forum where your decisions can't be questioned, and so do you, but YOU don't.

Requiring full vaxxers to post only in the debate and discussion forums also means that they have to open themselves up to potential criticism if they have any questions or concerns.  My daughter had her Tdap today.  If I had a question about a mild side effect (more serious questions would go to the doctor and not the Internet), there isn't any place (here) I could ask about it without it being "legal" to question my decision to give this vax at this time.  That doesn't make me feel very welcome.  It says that the only decision that is debateable is the decision to vax fully:  everything else must be respected.

Nobody at TWWS could help you? They seem quite supportive over there, and much more like-minded. There are a wealth of other places online for you, online, or you could do as others pro-vaxxers so frequently suggest and ask your doctor. smile.gif
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#26 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 06:03 PM
 
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I see your point. I suppose the politics of exclusion is something to take up with TPTB at Mothering.

 

Well, that's what I was trying to do. Cynthia Mosher was pretty clear in her response that "[t]he Vaccinations Discussion forum will be the place for people who support fully vaccinating on schedule."

 

So be it.


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#27 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 07:57 PM
 
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I agree with Chickabiddy. If the main forum is the "support forum" for full vaxxers, then how come it isn't the "support forum" for the other groups? Of course, it's because we are talking about groups who do not really necessarily support each other's choices. And who might want to post something to like-minded people without having a bunch of quibbling about it. MDC is saying that the decision to fully vax isn't worthy of support, while the decisions to forgo vaccines or select/delay are worthy of support. I think they tried to shunt us off into a social group the last time this came up, but that's really not the same as having the forum easily viewable to all under the Vaccinations heading the way the other forums are. 

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#28 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 08:50 PM
 
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But isn't electing to vax on schedule, as prosciencemum said, technically a selection? I think, socially speaking, those who deviate from the mainstream enjoy less support as a rule, so it makes sense that the forum should be "for" selective/delayed but accepting of mainstreamers, rather than the other way around, as it has been.
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#29 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 09:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

Nobody at TWWS could help you? They seem quite supportive over there, and much more like-minded. There are a wealth of other places online for you, online, or you could do as others pro-vaxxers so frequently suggest and ask your doctor. smile.gif

Is there really a need to make it personal? She asked an honest question & your response is to go elsewhere? Why shouldn't everyone have a place here where they can ask a question of like-minded moms without the worry of being attacked.
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#30 of 214 Old 08-16-2013, 09:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post

But isn't electing to vax on schedule, as prosciencemum said, technically a selection? I think, socially speaking, those who deviate from the mainstream enjoy less support as a rule, so it makes sense that the forum should be "for" selective/delayed but accepting of mainstreamers, rather than the other way around, as it has been.

Exactly.
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