Vaccine fearing mega church now tells members to vaccinate - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://mobile.rawstory.com/therawstory/#!/entry/vaccinefearing-texas-megachurch-urges-flock-to-immunize-after-measles-outbreak,52175e87da27f5d9d0104d59

A Texas mega church who had previously spoken out against vaccines saying they believed that the MMR caused autism and told its members to not trust doctors are now changing their tune. A measles outbreak has been linked to a member of their congregation and that person then infected 11 other people.

The members of the church are now lining up to get vaccinated.

Interesting how quickly they change their tune once they see the very real consequences of not vaccinating.
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#2 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 08:15 AM
 
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There can be very real consequences to vaccinating as well, and many have changed their tune after suffering them.

Did anyone die or have complications? I didn't see anything in the article about the dire consequences of these eleven folks who got the measles.

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#3 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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In another article it says 8 of the cases have recovered so far. Not sure what that means. Hundreds from the church have now been vaccinated.

The scary thing is that the youngest to get infected was only 4 months old and there were other infants that were infected and they now have an increased chance of getting SSPE which is fatal.

I would be on pins and needles for many many years if my baby got measles.
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#4 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 08:42 AM
 
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This just highlights how programmed and brainwashed society is today. Measles is really not the dreaded disease that MSM, the governement and its agencies and the vaccine manufacturers would like us to believe.

 

I intend to post this ad nauseum because it really is the truth, read what GPs in the UK in 1959 had to say about measles in the BMJ, they were not in the least bit concerned for their patients.Here is Dr John Fry:

 

 

 

In this practice measles is considered as a relatively mild and inevitable childhood ailment that is best encountered any time from 3 to 7 years of age. Over the past 10 years there have been few serious complications at any age, and all children have made complete recoveries. As a result of this reasoning no special attempts have been made at prevention even in young infants in whom the disease has not been found to be especially serious.

 

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/british-medical-journal-tells-us-measles-is-not-the-scary-disease-the-press-want-you-to-think-it-is/

 

Back in 1959, few four month old babies ever came down with measles, because they were protected by true herd immunity; their mothers passed on antibodies from natural infection, as nature intended.

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#5 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not sure what your definition of herd immunity is but this is the medical definition

": a reduction in the probability of infection that is held to apply to susceptible members of a population in which a significant proportion of the individuals are immune because the chance of coming in contact with an infected individual is less"

There was never any true herd immunity for measles until the vaccine. Nearly everyone still got measles! The fact that most adults were immune didn't stop kids from getting measles year after year after year.

Very similar to chicken pox. Just because most people were naturally immune didnt stop the next batch of kids that weren't immune from getting it from the previous group. It's a vicious cycle.

I still don't have my laptop so I'm not sure if I am explaining this well.

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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

I'm not sure what your definition of herd immunity is but this is the medical definition

": a reduction in the probability of infection that is held to apply to susceptible members of a population in which a significant proportion of the individuals are immune because the chance of coming in contact with an infected individual is less"

There was never any true herd immunity for measles until the vaccine. Nearly everyone still got measles! The fact that most adults were immune didn't stop kids from getting measles year after year after year.

Very similar to chicken pox. Just because most people were naturally immune didnt stop the next batch of kids that weren't immune from getting it from the previous group. It's a vicious cycle.

I still don't have my laptop so I'm not sure if I am explaining this well.

LL

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#7 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If most people are still getting a disease that's not a herd immunity.

I can't post a picture from my device but here is a link of what herd immunity is.






http://www.decodedscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/herd-immunity.gif

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#8 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 11:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

I'm not sure what your definition of herd immunity is but this is the medical definition

": a reduction in the probability of infection that is held to apply to susceptible members of a population in which a significant proportion of the individuals are immune because the chance of coming in contact with an infected individual is less"

There was never any true herd immunity for measles until the vaccine. Nearly everyone still got measles! The fact that most adults were immune didn't stop kids from getting measles year after year after year.

Very similar to chicken pox. Just because most people were naturally immune didnt stop the next batch of kids that weren't immune from getting it from the previous group. It's a vicious cycle.

 

You are explaining it well enough.

 

I think an important part you are leaving out is that if most mothers had measles and breastfed they would pass on some immunity to their babies through birth and then breastmilk.  As such, it was fairly uncommon for infants to get such things as measles.  Less babies were in daycare and older children might have been mildly quarantined with measles - both of which cut down on the chances of transmitting measles to an infant.  This is just speculation - although there is a thread here from the past few months that clearly shows measles was most common in 3-9 years in the prevaccine era, and that (sadly) this has changed in the post vaccination era to babies, teens, and older adults.  


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#9 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 11:07 AM
 
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If most people are still getting a disease that's not a herd immunity.


 

Cool.  So no flame throwing is allowed over choices not to vaccinate for pertussis or flu is henceforth allowed.  orngtongue.gif


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#10 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Can't copy and paste. So sorry if there is any confusion.

Do 90+% of babies get whooping cough? Ok then. So the vaccine is helping with herd immunity. Even getting whooping cough naturally does not provide lifelong immunity.

I've said before that the WC vaccine could be better. No one disagrees with that. But 60 percent effective is not 0 percent effective. It still helps and makes cases less severe if you do get it.

The flu is also not comparable to measles since the flu strand is different every year. Getting the flu naturally doesn't give you immunity either. The flu vaccine does help though.

As far as measles, breast milk only gives some immunity and not for very long. I don't think there's been a single death from measles in the US in over 20 years. Whatever benefit to getting the measles naturally there may be is vastly outweighed by the risks of the disease. Thousands would have died in the same 20 years if there had not been a vaccine.

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#11 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 11:34 AM
 
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As far as measles, breast milk only gives some immunity and not for very long. I don't think there's been a single death from measles in the US in over 20 years. Whatever benefit to getting the measles naturally there may be is vastly outweighed by the risks of the disease. Thousands would have died in the same 20 years if there had not been a vaccine.

The above is pure speculation, based on revisionist history, you cannot possibly state that as fact.


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#12 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 11:48 AM
 
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My LOs have been nursing for upwards of 3 years each. I don't believe the Formula sponsored nonsense that they only benefited from antibodies in my milk for the first 6 months. Children benefit from their mother's antibodies as long as they nurse.
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I have very mixed feelings when people or institutions do a complete 180 on a topic.  I don't see it much in real life, and when it happens I tend to think they were not that firm in their convictions in the first place.  Oh, people do move on issues, but usually slowly unless something drastic happens to them personally.

 

 

That being said, I am not quite sure that is what happened with this church. The article is not as clear as I would like.

 

The father of the current pastor did not believe in vaccines, but it seems the current pastor is not so hard core.

 

"In a statement on the church website, Pearsons also insisted that she did not share her fathers fear of autism.

“Some people think I am against immunizations, but that is not true,” the statement said. “Vaccinations help cut the mortality rate enormously. I believe it is wrong to be against vaccinations. The concerns we have had are primarily with very young children who have family history of autism and with bundling too many immunizations at one time. There is no indication of the autism connection with vaccinations in older children."

So, I am not sure the church did flip-flop.  There is adifference from being completely non-vax and preaching caution.  

Furthermore, the church is also recommending people who do not want to be vaccinated quarantine themselves at home for the next two weeks (perhaps everyone should - vaccines can take 2 weeks to kick in).  Quarantine is a viable option for some in an outbreak.  

 

 

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#14 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 12:29 PM
 
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The members of the church are now lining up to get vaccinated.

Interesting how quickly they change their tune once they see the very real consequences of not vaccinating.

Yes, and?

 

I think it is very reasonable to vaccinate (if you want to vaccinate at all) in the presence of an actual threat.  


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#15 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 01:01 PM
 
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Churches do have a a legal dimension too. I am not in love with his statement, but I often think Pastors speak from personal opinion where they should turn to Scripture.
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#16 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 01:04 PM
 
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His 'no evidence' bit is really cringeworthy; what about AI arthritis in older female children? Plenty of evidence 4 that. I think Vaxes have a religious dimension, obviously, but I don't think Pastors should really delve into the scientific fray in public statements . . .
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#17 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 01:24 PM
 
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Ive always found this herd immunity concept hard to accept because most adults in the communities are rarely up to date with all the vaccinations. Very pro vax adults may take time out to get boosters right on the schedule but average joe and janes do not. This means most of us have "lost" whatever antibodies we had from our childhood vaxes. Only ones who are completely on schedule are the vaxing children and they certainly are not the majority of population. So in theory, it is impossible to attain successful herd immunity unless every adult too is fully vaccinated right on the schedule.
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 So in theory, it is impossible to attain successful herd immunity unless every adult too is fully vaccinated right on the schedule.

This is probably their ultimate goal.

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#19 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 02:03 PM
 
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Oh & YIKES! Thimerisol & MMR? A 'new' MMR?

I wonder why, now when a baby dies from a mother refusing induction, we won't hunt down every reporter that suggested there was a link? What about when a woman refuses to have a baby with her old husband or when a mother turns down antidepressant therapy in pregnancy? My point is that it is socially acceptable to attribute autism to *aNYthINg* these days, except . . .
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I just find it strange when provax advocates stress the importance of herd immunity and how paramount it is to public health. The reality is we have NEVER had complete herd immunity in the history of vaccines. Does this mean vaxed school children were the ones who shielded me from getting polio and measles etc etc? It simply does not make sense. Why arent more adults coming down with diseases since the immunity ran out years ago? Just begs the question what is keeping ME from coming down with disease when i interact with any adults who might be infecting the population..or am i going around infecting people and dont know it? I mean seriously all adults must be contracting something since most of us havent been vaxed in eons.
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#21 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 02:22 PM
 
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This just highlights how programmed and brainwashed society is today. Measles is really not the dreaded disease that MSM, the governement and its agencies and the vaccine manufacturers would like us to believe.

I intend to post this ad nauseum because it really is the truth, read what GPs in the UK in 1959 had to say about measles in the BMJ, they were not in the least bit concerned for their patients.Here is Dr John Fry:



.

That's what a single GP (in a small country practice) said in 1959. In the UK there were 98 deaths from measles that year. Not a huge amount I admit, but I bet the parents of those children who died didn't dismiss measles as nothing. I think dismissing the risks from measles is as bad if not worse than claiming there's no risk at all from vaccinating.

You can also read about Roald Dahl's opinion of measles afterbhis daughter died age 7 of complications caused by measles: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/7930637/Roald-Dahls-secret-notebook-reveals-heartbreak-over-daughters-death.html

Sure it can be a mild illness - it can also cause death.

Most people have no reaction to vaccines even while serious reactions can occur rarely.

Dismissing either risk is unhelpful.
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#22 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 02:50 PM
 
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That's what a single GP (in a small country practice) said in 1959. In the UK there were 98 deaths from measles that year. Not a huge amount I admit, but I bet the parents of those children who died didn't dismiss measles as nothing. I think dismissing the risks from measles is as bad if not worse than claiming there's no risk at all from vaccinating.

You can also read about Roald Dahl's opinion of measles afterbhis daughter died age 7 of complications caused by measles: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/7930637/Roald-Dahls-secret-notebook-reveals-heartbreak-over-daughters-death.html

Sure it can be a mild illness - it can also cause death.

Most people have no reaction to vaccines even while serious reactions can occur rarely.

Dismissing either risk is unhelpful.

So is vastly over playing it. There were reports from several GPs from various parts of the country in the BMJ article, and all of them said pretty much the same thing, measles was not a big worry. I can assure you that Beckenham was no exception to the rule.

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#23 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm sure Angelina's parents don't think it's a mild disease either. She contracted measles from an unvaccinated teenager when she was 7 months old and died from SSPE 5 years later.

"In February of this year, we noticed significant abnormalities in our daughter. She often fell off the bike and had veritable speech impediment. When these reactions became more and more drastic, we went to the clinic. The diagnosis of SSPE came as a shock to us. Within only 8 weeks our child became an invalid. She can neither walk nor talk and, meanwhile has to be fed artificially. Actually she was supposed to start school this year. This terrible blow has been very difficult for all of us "

In addition recent data may show that contracting measles before the ago of 1 may give you as high as a 1 in 200 chance of getting SSPE


"The special aspect about these two cases is that the infections occurred within the period after the introduction of duty of notification for infectious diseases in Germany in 2001. For the whole year of 2006, 313 measles infections in the first year of life were reported to the RKI. And from these infections two SSPE cases have already developed. Even if it is assumed that in 2006 there were also a number of unreported cases, we must now assume that the risk of SSPE after an infection in the first year of life is much higher than we previously thought”. And there are also other indications of the incidence of SSPE in Germany. For example, 27 cases of death resulting from a diagnosis of SSPE were recorded by the Federal Statistical Office from 2005 to 2010. And even with another child who had been infected in 2006 at the age of 5 months with measles, a rapid-onset form of SSPE was diagnosed. The child died in the spring of 2007. With reference to the outbreak in Germany in 2006, we must now assume an incidence of at least 1:200. In plain English: the risk of death for infants who become infected with measles in their first year of life, is very high, due to the late sequelae of this disease. However, according to approvals governing the use of vaccines in Germany, children can be vaccinated only as of the age of 11 months."


http://ecpcp.eu/news/singleview/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=55

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#24 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 04:02 PM
 
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Basically, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. In rare cases, complications and/or death can occur from measles. The general consensus is that serious vaccine reactions, including debilitating conditions and/or death can occur. So, which "side" is "evil" for wanting to protect their children? Both sides have merit.

The only thing that is wrong to me is when someone tries to tell me that I MUST vaccinate, that I'm evil and stupid and selfish if I don't, yada yada. The reason I choose not to is because preventing vaccine reaction is something I can control. I can take responsibility for it. It's a decision I can make.

I will not berate someone else for their decisions. But I'll be damned if I'm made to feel ignorant, kookie, or gullible because I choose not to vaccinate for the sake of my children's health.

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#25 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 07:18 PM
 
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Teacozy do you need me to post a lnk to baby Ian's webpage as an illustration on how vaccines kill?
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#26 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 09:28 PM
 
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I may be going off a bit tangent here but I just had another thought. The medical community mantra is " There will be an  epidemic of (fill in the blank) if we don't vax". Okay, so going from that premise, everyone assumes  they mean children, babies and adolescents. So..why are adult population left out or rather left alone (other than the incessant flu vaccine push) when THEY are the ones that can infect newborns? Think about it. Babies are not born with polio/measles/mumps/whooping cough etc etc. They get infected from someone born before them, which includes a huge population of adults. If vaccine theory holds true, shouldn't ALL adults get vaxed?  Also following with this line of thought, since most adults are not up to date, shouldn't we be going through epidemics of massive proportion all the time? From my memory of recent events, "epidemic" was the h1n1  flu right? Where are the old school disease epidemics of massive proportions? Like 1000000000 new polio cases among adults who are not following vax schedule.  Is it truly feasible to think vaxed children are our main line of defense? I seem to repeat this over again but it simply makes no sense to me.

 

So to sum up:

1. Most adults are not up to date on vaxes

2. Babies are born and susceptible to disease carrying non updated adults

3. Although adults,  despite not updating their shots, seems to evade or recover from old school diseases pretty damn well for most parts

4. However children must be vaxed on schedule to "save lives" (again...a really ambiguous term CDC/WHO/medical community likes to repeat again and again)

 

Conclusion: Something is rotten in Denmark

 

Bah. More holes than your regular soap storylines

 

If I have gotten any facts or assumptions wrong please correct my errors. I tend to be more of a logic/analytical thinker, rather than theorizing with help of abstracts/studies. I leave that to all of your very capable hands. :)

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#27 of 35 Old 08-23-2013, 10:14 PM
 
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You make some great points, Paradigmshift.

What bothers me about this article is not that people went to get vaccines. It's not the actual story. It's the tone of the article that is seen so often and is offensive. It's goal is clearly to divide, to create anger, and to paint those that don't vaccinate as ignorant and gullible fanatics. Yes, there are people who do not vaccinate for religious reasons, but that's what they believe and it is their choice. Not everyone who doesn't vax does so for religious reasons. This article does more than just mock "anti-vaxers" (I hate that term), it mocks the religious as well. It's sole purpose is to mock. It doesn't really even give any information.

Posting it also serves to mock. Show me some facts. Talk to me like an intelligent person. Then we can have a discussion. But come at me with stuff like this and I know that the intent is to make me react, not open my eyes to anything worthwhile.

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#28 of 35 Old 09-04-2013, 10:43 AM
 
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I don't normally care for sites like this, but I'll make an exception for this article that corrects some misinformation surrounding this case.

I don't agree with the entire article, but it has some interesting info on the Copeland case.

Remember that to the fanatics, questioning so much as 1 dose of 1 vaccine can get you labeled "anti-vaccination."

http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/six-lies-mainstream-media-is-printing-about-kenneth-copeland-church-and-measles-outbreak-heres-the-truth/
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#29 of 35 Old 09-04-2013, 12:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ParadigmShift View Post
 

. So..why are adult population left out or rather left alone (other than the incessant flu vaccine push) when THEY are the ones that can infect newborns? Think about it. Babies are not born with polio/measles/mumps/whooping cough etc etc. They get infected from someone born before them, which includes a huge population of adults. If vaccine theory holds true, shouldn't ALL adults get vaxed?  Also following with this line of thought, since most adults are not up to date, shouldn't we be going through epidemics of massive proportion all the time? From my memory of recent events, "epidemic" was the h1n1  flu right? Where are the old school disease epidemics of massive proportions? Like 1000000000 new polio cases among adults who are not following vax schedule.  Is it truly feasible to think vaxed children are our main line of defense? I seem to repeat this over again but it simply makes no sense to me.

 

 

 

 

But most adults are following the vaccination schedule for polio.  The schedule says to get vaccinated for it as a child, which most adults were.  The polio vaccine is believed to give long term to lifelong immunity.  If at some point this turns out to be untrue and they start finding a decent portion of adults without polio immunity, or worse, adults with polio, I'm sure they will try and get adults to get a booster then.  Right now though, polio is not on the adult schedule for people who were vaccinated as children. 

 

Same with measles. Most adults either are old enough to have had measles or have had at least one shot.  A second shot is advised for those who only had one as a child, but most people who don't get it are still protected by the first anyway.

 

Currently mumps is not on the schedule either for people who were vaccinated as children.  However, outbreaks in college age populations may indicate that the vaccination is not as effective or long lasting as originally thought, so if there continue to be problems, perhaps someday they will add a mumps booster for that age or adults.  We'll see what happens. 

 

Pertussis immunity does not last nearly as long as other vaccine, and they do push  for adults to get a booster, especially adults who will be around children.  That many adults still don't get it could contribute to spreading pertussis, however, there seem to be problems with the pertussis vaccine that are doing far more to cause outbreak right now.  

 

For most adults who were vaccinated as a child and had chickenpox, the only scheduled vaccines are tetanus (not contagious), flu, diptheria (could be an issue, but it is nearly eradicated and doesn't spread as quickly as other diseases), and pertussis.  The elderly are also supposed to get shingle and pneumonia vaccine (for their own protection).  

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#30 of 35 Old 09-04-2013, 01:20 PM
 
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Thanks for summarizing that so concisely pers. I'd been wondering about these claims that adults are really undervaccinated, and wanted to remind myself what is recommended in terms of boosters. So helpful that you just did it for us - and I'm reassured to see that it's not a big issue (as I suspected). 

 

Should look up when I last got a tetanus booster though.... I think I might be due that one soon! ;) 


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