Vaccination: A Mythical History - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 141 Old 10-19-2013, 11:27 AM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,036
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)

I wish this were cited a bit better, so it is definitely a "take it for what it is worth" article, but thought this was worth sharing, none-the-less:

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/dr-paul-offit-delivers-speech-with-arguments-against-exemptions-from-compulsory-vaccination

 

 

"Dr. Offit asked the audience if any of them believed in a Constitutional right to refuse being vaccinated. He followed his inquiry with supporting law evidence of cases that do not support a Constitutional right to refuse vaccines. .."

applejuice likes this.

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#122 of 141 Old 10-19-2013, 03:03 PM
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,430
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 298 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

I wish this were cited a bit better, so it is definitely a "take it for what it is worth" article, but thought this was worth sharing, none-the-less:

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/dr-paul-offit-delivers-speech-with-arguments-against-exemptions-from-compulsory-vaccination

 

 

"Dr. Offit asked the audience if any of them believed in a Constitutional right to refuse being vaccinated. He followed his inquiry with supporting law evidence of cases that do not support a Constitutional right to refuse vaccines. .."

 

Yeah, the examiner isn't the best source.  In any case, as explained in one of the examples in the article, I have little doubt that if there were an outbreak of smallpox or diptheria in the US that there would be mandatory vaccination or mandatory quarantines.  It's totally possible depending on how big of an outbreak there was. 

 

It still doesn't make a case for Offit arguing that adults should be forced against their will to get vaccinated.  I posted part of this earlier (and it's not just a case of "they say this is what he said", he actually states this in his book) and in it he argues that he believes a big part of why the anti vaccine movement started was because of compulsory vaccination. He actually believes that making vaccines compulsory makes people band together against them more.  Which is why I said I had never heard that he believes that adults should get vaccinated against their will, he has actually stated and argued the exact opposite in his book  Deadly Choices: How the Anti-vaccine Movement Threatens Us All

 

"Although it’s not new news, in the context of tracing the origins of the modern anti-vaccine movement Dr. Offit convincingly demonstrates that one of the consequences of the Vaccination Act of 1853, which made vaccination against smallpox mandatory for infants. In 1867, 1871, and 1873, followup acts were passed that made vaccination compulsory. During this same time period, resistance to vaccination increased, with rallies, protests, and increasing civil disobedience.

In contrast, Dr. Offit convincingly argues that mandatory vaccination, which is what we have in the U.S., is far more effective. Mandatory, in contrast to compulsory vaccination, requires vaccination as a precondition for using certain public services, specifically the public schools. The message is that you don’t have to vaccinate you kids if you really don’t want to. " 

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/deadly-choices-about-vaccination/


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#123 of 141 Old 10-19-2013, 08:57 PM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,131
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Well, he said this:

"Hi; my name is Paul Offit, and I'm talking to you today from the Division of Infectious Diseases at The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. What I'd like to talk about is our experience last year with influenza vaccine, because we took an unusual step. We actually mandated the vaccine, not only for healthcare workers, but for all employees, and the deal was that if you didn't want to get the vaccine, you had 2 weeks of unpaid leave to think about it. If you still didn't want to get the vaccine, then you were asked to step down from your position."  http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/728352

So anyone who worked in the hospital - even if they worked in payroll and rarely saw kids, had to have a shot or be fired.  

Really, though, why the foucus on adult and vaccines?

He wants to make childhood vaccines mandatory, even when the parents have weighed the pros and cons and decided against it.  OTOH, he defends his own right to weigh the pros and cons and pass on the smallpox vaccine.  

Well that certainly clears things up. Offit supports mandating the very vaccine that the Cochrane Review found so ineffective, they found NO benefit to even give it to health care workers (let alone mandate it).

If he supports *mandating* a vaccine that is clearly ineffective--and also has some very real risks--for a disease that isn't even serious for the vast majority of US citizens, that's enough right there to call either his judgment or his ethics into question.
Mirzam, applejuice and BeckyBird like this.
Taximom5 is online now  
#124 of 141 Old 10-20-2013, 08:44 AM
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,430
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 298 Post(s)

Also Serenbat, I'd like some evidence that Paul Offit doesn't get vaccinated according to the recommended adult US schedule himself.  Since you stated "every adult but himself" I'd like to see some evidence that supports that claim.  Unless he has some sort of medical condition I am not aware of, I would find it very surprising if he recommended vaccines that he refuses for himself. 


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#125 of 141 Old 10-20-2013, 08:07 PM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,297
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

Yeah, the examiner isn't the best source.  In any case, as explained in one of the examples in the article, I have little doubt that if there were an outbreak of smallpox or diptheria in the US that there would be mandatory vaccination or mandatory quarantines.  It's totally possible depending on how big of an outbreak there was. 

 

It still doesn't make a case for Offit arguing that adults should be forced against their will to get vaccinated.  I posted part of this earlier (and it's not just a case of "they say this is what he said", he actually states this in his book) and in it he argues that he believes a big part of why the anti vaccine movement started was because of compulsory vaccination. He actually believes that making vaccines compulsory makes people band together against them more.  Which is why I said I had never heard that he believes that adults should get vaccinated against their will, he has actually stated and argued the exact opposite in his book  Deadly Choices: How the Anti-vaccine Movement Threatens Us All

 

"Although it’s not new news, in the context of tracing the origins of the modern anti-vaccine movement Dr. Offit convincingly demonstrates that one of the consequences of the Vaccination Act of 1853, which made vaccination against smallpox mandatory for infants. In 1867, 1871, and 1873, followup acts were passed that made vaccination compulsory. During this same time period, resistance to vaccination increased, with rallies, protests, and increasing civil disobedience.

In contrast, Dr. Offit convincingly argues that mandatory vaccination, which is what we have in the U.S., is far more effective. Mandatory, in contrast to compulsory vaccination, requires vaccination as a precondition for using certain public services, specifically the public schools. The message is that you don’t have to vaccinate you kids if you really don’t want to. " 

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/deadly-choices-about-vaccination/

What you clearly lack is the understanding to the FACT that when you do not allow parents to have exemptions, and he clearly DOES NOT favor exemptions aside from medical (and the medical has been pointed out VERY clearly that it is NOT as exemption that parents can take freely) he (Offit) reduced the ability of parents to have a choice, thus it is compulsory/mandatory! IF you take away exemption (and again, like he is advocating within the state of PA where he wrote the article calling for the repel of the religious exemption, it becomes compulsory!!!!!!!!!!! You DO NOT have a choice except to get a medical exemption, no matter how you want to spin this, it is compulsory baring an exemption.

 

You don't have A CHOICE, all children within in PA must have COMPULSORY education and thus must be vaccinated or file an exemption, there are ONLY 2 in PA - ONE is medical, ONE is religious  2-1=1 it's super simple math take away religious exemption and you are FORCED as a parent- it's very simple here tea, very very simple, it's all out FORCE

 

This really is simple, I can homeschool, my child DOES NOT get ANY public services, I don't get this "choice" you seem to keep quoting (and you must believe it too???) that somehow it changes the definition of words and that I get some choice to not vaccinate and it's only somehow "mandatory" when I have precondition for using certain public services, specifically the public schools ! :dizzy 

 

And by the way, just because you keep repeating something, it doesn't make it TRUE - same way the definition of what compulsory and mandatory REALLY mean also does not change because you want to read into something it clearly does not mean.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

Also Serenbat, I'd like some evidence that Paul Offit doesn't get vaccinated according to the recommended adult US schedule himself.  Since you stated "every adult but himself" I'd like to see some evidence that supports that claim.  Unless he has some sort of medical condition I am not aware of, I would find it very surprising if he recommended vaccines that he refuses for himself. 

 

do you know how to use the "quote" button? :dizzy

 

Since you stated "every adult but himself" I'd like to see some evidence that supports that claim. - where do you think I wrote this quote "every adult but himself"

 

Clearly you read only what suites you - if SOMEHOW you took post #99 to mean something it doesn't - go right a head and keep thinking that way!

 

He clearly is pushing vaccines, he doesn't support a delay or selective schedule, he wants religious exemptions done aways with, he wasn't adults vaccinated (he has pushed for that in the hospital where he works) what he can't DO is push it (right now!!) on adults 100% and he knows it - it's called MONEY and there is no way to push it and get the funding for it - just look at medicare - they only pay for 3 vaccines, he's in the clear with himself because he can say what he wants but no law requires him to do what he is asking of others (maybe that is the part you have so much trouble with-----he can say lots of things, others can say things about what he says - like what you like to post, not all of what he says are LAWS........yet) you do know what laws are? they are enforceable - like in the PA law I posted about exemptions - do you need to see more, there are actually three sections if you don't know about the PA vaccine law and children I can post more into?

BeckyBird likes this.

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#126 of 141 Old 10-20-2013, 08:31 PM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,297
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Tea

I would really like to know - how us a parent/ such as myself in PA who home schools suppose to circumvent the compulsory education law and still have a choice in my vaccination of my child? If I can not take a medical and if Offit has his way and I can't get a religious - how am I not faced with a compulsory mandate? Should I just forget the compulsory education law? What is it???
BeckyBird likes this.

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#127 of 141 Old 10-20-2013, 10:02 PM
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,430
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 298 Post(s)

Serenbat, I get what you are saying.  I know medical exemptions are hard to get. I also read the links about PA requiring vaccines for homeschooling (although currently homeschoolers can still get an exemption from vaccines fairly easily).  I *understand* that in that specific state, removing all exemptions except for the medical exemption is essentially making them compulsory in that state.  

 

But Paul Offit isn't God. He doesn't control what laws individual states pass. He may try to push certain issues, but there is no evidence that I am aware of that Offit had anything to do with PA requiring HSers to vaccinate.  All I have trying to say is that I have never heard him make the argument that home schooled children should have mandatory vaccines.  I have only heard him make the argument that to use certain public services (mainly public schools) that vaccines should be mandatory.  Maybe he would argue in that specific state that home schoolers be allowed other exemptions. Who knows. All I know is that he has written and argued in his book that he thinks making vaccines compulsary for all children/adults has shown to be a bad idea. He argues that it makes people rally and push against vaccines more.  So if you have information that he has flip flopped on this stance, I would be interested in reading it. So far you haven't shown me anything that demonstrates that he has.  As I have already stated multiple times in this thread, I do not agree with removing exemptions. I thought I had been asked to clarify what his stance was. That's all I was trying to do. I don't even remember which post I was responding to anymore, honestly. 

 

This is the part I have been asking you about. You said in post #99 : "it's called mandatory and IMO (and that of many others!!) he doesn't just want vaccines for children! do more googling and maybe you will find he really is PUSHING for mandatory, with just an exemption for him :bgbounce

 

So again, where is this information that he somehow recommends or wants people to get vaccines that he himself wouldn't be open to taking?  You said "pushing for mandatory, with just an exemption for him"   Which vaccines does he think he should be exempt from that are on the US schedule that he recommends for other people?  I really just do not understand what you mean by that statement.   


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#128 of 141 Old 10-21-2013, 03:48 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,297
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

Serenbat, I get what you are saying.  I know medical exemptions are hard to get. I also read the links about PA requiring vaccines for homeschooling (although currently homeschoolers can still get an exemption from vaccines fairly easily).  I *understand* that in that specific state, removing all exemptions except for the medical exemption is essentially making them compulsory in that state.  

 

But Paul Offit isn't God. He doesn't control what laws individual states pass. WRONG! He may try to push certain issues, but there is no evidence that I am aware of that Offit had anything to do with PA requiring HSers to vaccinate.WRONG again!  All I have trying to say is that I have never heard him make the argument that home schooled children should have mandatory vaccines.  I have only heard him make the argument that to use certain public services (mainly public schools) that vaccines should be mandatory.:laughWRONG, WRONG again!  What he is PUSHING effects ALL children in PA, not "certain" public services!!!!!!!!!!!!  Maybe he would argue in that specific state that home schoolers be allowed other exemptions. Who knows. All I know is that he has written and argued in his book that he thinks making vaccines compulsary for all children/adults has shown to be a bad idea. See, this is what happens when someone lies--how can you know when they are telling the truth and when they are not? Maybe you should stop saying what "you think" he thinks, remember- ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS - taking "ACTIONS" to effect LAWS is just that - an ACTION, he had taken ACTIONS by directly contributing to legislation in PA. He argues that it makes people rally and push against vaccines more.  So if you have information that he has flip flopped on this stance, I would be interested in reading it. So far you haven't shown me anything that demonstrates that he has.  As I have already stated multiple times in this thread, I do not agree with removing exemptions. I thought I had been asked to clarify what his stance was. That's all I was trying to do. I don't even remember which post I was responding to anymore, honestly. 

 

This is the part I have been asking you about. You said in post #99 : "it's called mandatory and IMO (and that of many others!!) he doesn't just want vaccines for children! do more googling and maybe you will find he really is PUSHING for mandatory, with just an exemption for him :bgbounce

 

So again, where is this information that he somehow recommends or wants people to get vaccines that he himself wouldn't be open to taking?  You said "pushing for mandatory, with just an exemption for him"   Which vaccines does he think he should be exempt from that are on the US schedule that he recommends for other people?  I really just do not understand what you mean by that statement.   AND I don't get how you don't understand what I wrote and the links I have provided to you. :dizzy

again, you just don't get this - I did point this out to you prior - http://articles.philly.com/2013-05-10/news/39144680_1_child-abuse-neglect-first-century-gospel 

 

The families he is talking about have/had children that ARE not even school age! I know you want to keep throwing in "school" age but what he is directly advocating for involves ALL age children! He is pushing for that, very plain and simple.

 

I'm glad you think he has nothing to do with pushing legislation! it must be nice to live in a fantasy worlddust.gif - reality is much different http://www.senatormensch.com/2013/06/03/senate-aging-youth-committee-hearing-on-senate-bill-20/

http://www.senatormensch.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/17/files/2013/06/offit.pdf

 

 

again, you don't get to make up what is reality! Senate Bill 20 WILL EFFECT ALL children and this means HOMESCHOOLER in PA, unless Offit is super dumb he knows perfectly well that would effect ALL children in PA  - homeschooled or not-----it has NOTHING to do with school.....wish you got that! It would effect ALL children from birth and his hands are in it- plain and simple!!!!!! 

 

ETA- I would say the word hypocrite applies here to Offit regarding "compulsory" vs "mandatory" 

 

That is if the definition of hypocrite really means .... http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite  a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

 

It's hard to say you- "The message is that you don’t have to vaccinate you kids if you really don’t want to."  Yet you activity work on legislation to do just that! a hypocrite - wouldn't you say?

BeckyBird likes this.

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#129 of 141 Old 10-21-2013, 04:05 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,297
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post
 

When you say "certain exemptions", you're referring to medical exemptions only, right?

What about religious and philosophical? It was my understanding that Offit wanted to remove those exemptions.

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
 

Never did hear about this - are you replying to this tea? What exactly are "certain exemptions" in your logic?

 

Are you working to help the parents in WV & Miss that don't have other choices?

 

still haven't read the replies to this - again, what are exactly are "certain exemptions" tea? And since you favor these unknown certain exemptions what are you doing to help those parents?
 
What do you plan to do for me here in PA if Offit gets his way? Since you "understand" that would make PA compulsory (like what other parents deal with)- I'm sure you will be working to over turn what the one you like so much is doing to others - again, what are you doing about it?
Just copying and pasting he really doesn't "feel" that way? When reality is he is directly behind legislation to do what you say he doesn't believe in :twins When you activity work with a legislator you can't "pretend" you don't support something when the direct result is what it is!
 
dust.giffairy dust when reality doesn't match what you copy & paste! 

 

it's here also - http://paul-offit.com/op_eds/


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#130 of 141 Old 10-23-2013, 08:49 AM
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,430
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 298 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
 

again, you just don't get this - I did point this out to you prior - http://articles.philly.com/2013-05-10/news/39144680_1_child-abuse-neglect-first-century-gospel 

 

The families he is talking about have/had children that ARE not even school age! I know you want to keep throwing in "school" age but what he is directly advocating for involves ALL age children! He is pushing for that, very plain and simple.

 

I'm glad you think he has nothing to do with pushing legislation! it must be nice to live in a fantasy worlddust.gif - reality is much different http://www.senatormensch.com/2013/06/03/senate-aging-youth-committee-hearing-on-senate-bill-20/

http://www.senatormensch.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/17/files/2013/06/offit.pdf

 

 

again, you don't get to make up what is reality! Senate Bill 20 WILL EFFECT ALL children and this means HOMESCHOOLER in PA, unless Offit is super dumb he knows perfectly well that would effect ALL children in PA  - homeschooled or not-----it has NOTHING to do with school.....wish you got that! It would effect ALL children from birth and his hands are in it- plain and simple!!!!!! 

 

ETA- I would say the word hypocrite applies here to Offit regarding "compulsory" vs "mandatory" 

 

That is if the definition of hypocrite really means .... http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite  a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

 

It's hard to say you- "The message is that you don’t have to vaccinate you kids if you really don’t want to."  Yet you activity work on legislation to do just that! a hypocrite - wouldn't you say?

 

Is it really necessary to bold and capitalize every few words in bright red? It's very annoying to read.

 

Anyway, I am only going to make a brief reply because this is just going around in circles.  This link you provided " http://articles.philly.com/2013-05-10/news/39144680_1_child-abuse-neglect-first-century-gospel"  Is about religious exemptions for child abuse laws. That doesn't mean getting rid of religious exemptions for vaccines for school requirements.  Take Massachusetts for example.  There was a case of a boy named Robyn Twitchell, a 2-year-old who, in 1988, had a bowel obstruction. His parents prayed for him instead of seeking medical attention. The boy died and the Commonwealth sued his parents. Massachusetts then eliminated the religious exemption to child abuse and neglect laws. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_v._Twitchell)  But Massachusetts still allows for religious vaccine exemptions for schooling. 

 

You *still* haven't shown me any evidence that Offit recommends vaccines for US adults that he doesn't use himself. 


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#131 of 141 Old 10-23-2013, 10:18 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,297
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Congrats tea!

You know something about Senate bill 20 my Senator doesn't know- my PA Senator seems to understand it JUST like Offit does-as a repeal of the religious exemption and since MY Senator votes and not you- I simply find your logic/reasoning to be un-true.
By the way I do find someone like Offit to only add his name, as he did when he submitted his opinion to the bill, to what he supports-guess you don't understand what he does either!!!

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#132 of 141 Old 10-23-2013, 10:45 AM
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,430
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 298 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

Congrats tea!

You know something about Senate bill 20 my Senator doesn't know- my PA Senator seems to understand it JUST like Offit does-as a repeal of the religious exemption and since MY Senator votes and not you- I simply find your logic/reasoning to be un-true.
By the way I do find someone like Offit to only add his name, as he did when he submitted his opinion to the bill, to what he supports-guess you don't understand what he does either!!!

 

These states also have laws against using religious exemptions for child abuse laws: Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, North Carolina, Rhode Island, Oregon, and South Dakota.  As far as I am aware, all of those states still allow religious exemptions for vaccines.   


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#133 of 141 Old 10-23-2013, 11:20 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,297
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Spin it any way you can tea

Have you personally spoken to any Senators that can vote on this? I have.
Offit wrote an Op-ed and submit for the bill - apparently you fail to understand this is about repealing- keep spinning it but it doesn't make what you assert accurate at all.

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#134 of 141 Old 01-10-2014, 02:06 PM
 
Andrew Lazarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 128
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Why should I believe vinegar is effective against smallpox in the absence of any particular double-blind study?

teacozy likes this.
Andrew Lazarus is offline  
#135 of 141 Old 01-10-2014, 06:50 PM
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,430
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 298 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Lazarus View Post
 

Why should I believe vinegar is effective against smallpox in the absence of any particular double-blind study?

:yeah

 

And even if it was proven to reduce the mortality of smallpox (which it hasn't been) so what?  Does anyone here actually think it would be better to get smallpox and treat it with vinegar than preventing it in the first place?  Because even those who survive smallpox suffer horrible consequences.  Horrific facial scarring, blindness, encephalitis etc.  

 

It is actually a fact that Queen Elizabeth was horribly scarred and disfigured from smallpox.  She was so close to death that she was asked to name a successor.  She refused, and was criticized for creating a possible war over the throne.  It even caused her to become partly bald. It's speculated that because of the horrific scarring, she used poisonous white makeup to cover it which is widely believed to be the cause of her death.  

 

Yeah, no thanks. 


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#136 of 141 Old 01-10-2014, 07:38 PM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,131
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

 

 

It is actually a fact that Queen Elizabeth was horribly scarred and disfigured from smallpox.  She was so close to death that she was asked to name a successor.  She refused, and was criticized for creating a possible war over the throne.  It even caused her to become partly bald. It's speculated that because of the horrific scarring, she used poisonous white makeup to cover it which is widely believed to be the cause of her death.  

 

 

You sure about your historical facts, teacozy?  According to http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/Myths-about-Elizabeth-I-Part-1-291547.html:

 
  • False: the Earl of Essex reported the queen to have hair all about her ears just a few years before her death. It has often been said that Queen Elizabeth became bald at the age of thirty, but in fact there are references to her having her own hair well into her sixties. In the 1580s she gave a lock of her now graying hair to Philip Sidney (which is still on display in Wilton House, Wiltshire) and only a few years before she died, Robert Devereux, Earl of Essex, burst into her bedchamber without permission and saw the aging Queen with "her hair all about her ears"
applejuice likes this.
Taximom5 is online now  
#137 of 141 Old 01-10-2014, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
beckybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The Shattered Paradigm
Posts: 1,894
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Lazarus View Post
 

Why should I believe vinegar is effective against smallpox in the absence of any particular double-blind study?

There will never be such a study, Andrew. I can't imagine any pharmaceutical company or medical  institution funding any type of study about a vinegar cure for smallpox. Does this mean there is no merit to the historical reference of vinegar curing smallpox.....because there are no "gold-standard" studies? You probably believe the early accounts of the success of smallpox innoculation, so why don't you believe the early accounts of vinegar cures, which were written during the same time period? (because the "vinegar-guys" are lying, huh?)

 

And teacozy, didn't the early practice of smallpox innoculation promote the controlled infection of smallpox? For people who already had smallpox, vinegar was reported to be a cure. I wonder why this is so hard for some of you to believe? I guess you will never believe unless it's studied, patented, and sold by the beloved pharmaceutical companies.

applejuice and kathymuggle like this.

 
 
 "Medical propaganda ops are, in the long run, the most dangerous. They appear to be neutral. They wave no political banners. They claim to be science. For these reasons, they can accomplish the goals of overt fascism without arousing suspicion.” — Jon Rappoport
 
 
 
beckybird is online now  
#138 of 141 Old 01-10-2014, 10:45 PM
 
Andrew Lazarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 128
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I don't think vinegar guys are lying, but their evidence is based on tiny samples with no controls. That's weak, especially since many people were already vaccinated. That's mountains less evidence than we had about cowpox protecting from smallpox, a folk tradition that precedes Big Pharma by several hundred years. There were also non-Western cultures that discovered inoculation against smallpox, probably independently.

 

I think it is a safe guess that if a remedy as simple as vinegar really worked against one of the great scourges of history, it would have been discovered long, long before. There were cultures that believed praying to a Smallpox Goddess offered protection. They were generally smart enough to notice that Western vaccination was more effective. Why not you?

Andrew Lazarus is offline  
#139 of 141 Old 01-10-2014, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
beckybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The Shattered Paradigm
Posts: 1,894
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Lazarus View Post
 

 They were generally smart enough to notice that Western vaccination was more effective. Why not you?

That's not polite, Andrew. I am "smart enough" to know when I'm being mocked by someone who is breaking the MDC rules. Thanks.


 
 
 "Medical propaganda ops are, in the long run, the most dangerous. They appear to be neutral. They wave no political banners. They claim to be science. For these reasons, they can accomplish the goals of overt fascism without arousing suspicion.” — Jon Rappoport
 
 
 
beckybird is online now  
#140 of 141 Old 01-11-2014, 05:58 AM
Administrator
 
cynthia mosher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Arabia!
Posts: 28,835
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)

Seems a reminder of the rules is needed, especially for our new member, to whom I have also sent a PM. Please check your Private Messages Inbox Andrew Lazarus. 

 

Quote:
 

We embrace all parents, regardless of their vaccination choice. Our Vaccinations forums discuss issues and concerns so that parents can make an informed decision. We are not, however, interested in hosting discussions advocating for mandatory vaccination.

 

We have intelligent, passionate, and wise voices posting frequently to the Vaccinations forum. We certainly want to keep the forum atmosphere a place where they can do so with their passion intact. However, that passion must also carry a measure of compassion and respect, regardless of who is posting and what they are saying. While no one should be labeled as irresponsible or uninformed for deciding to vaccinate, neither should parents here who have chosen to not vaccinate be accused of irresponsibility, not caring for their child, or presenting a threat to others. Please respect each other and refrain from statements that are condescending, hurtful, judgmental, and belittling. Everyone should acknowledge and abide by the guidelines of this forum so that all members of MDC will feel more comfortable posting here. Responding harshly to parents in need of info who perhaps asked in the wrong way, asked without reading the archives, or posted in a way that felt inappropriate has caused some to turn away from the forum. We want to do what we can to ensure that this does not happen. 

 

 

Quote:

Choosing whether or not to have a child vaccinated, especially in light of the politics of vaccines, must be an independent decision. It should not be coerced, but be the product of true informed consent. Few people even know that they have a choice regarding vaccinations, much less know what informed consent really is... Some parents want to comply with the entire vaccination schedule; others want no vaccinations at all. Some parents want certain vaccines but not others. And some want to delay the vaccines until their baby is older. Vaccinations: Why All The Fuss by Peggy O'Mara

 

We have the following specific guidelines for the individual Vaccinations forums:

 

Vaccinations

This is our main forum to discuss all information and concerns about vaccinations as a community. This is a forum for members new to vaccination issues to post their questions and get feedback from community members with information to share as well as a general forum for discussion. Polite exchange of information opinion is a priority. This is not a debate or advocacy forum so moderation will be to uphold a comfortable posting atmosphere for all.

 

Support Forums

The I'm Not Vaccinating, Selective & Delayed Vaccination and the Vaccinating on Schedule forums are for support only. Members should determine which forum best suits their needs and post to that forum to get and share information. These forums do not host discussions that denigrate, insult or otherwise negatively generalize about the vaccination advocacy or practice of others. 

 

 

I'm Not Vaccinating - This is a support-only forum for those not or those seriously considering not vaccinating. Here we host discussion of issues that arise when choosing to not vaccinate and sharing of resources and information that are related to the no-vax decision. Members who are vaccinating should not post here to debate or argue accuracy or opinion of things posted. 

 

Selective & Delayed Vaccination -  This is a support-only forum for those who are vaccinating selectively or on a delayed schedule. Members who are not vaccinating or who are vaccinating on schedule should not post here to debate or argue accuracy or opinion of things posted. 

 

Vaccinating on Schedule -  This is a support-only forum for those who are vaccinating on schedule. Members who are not vaccinating or who are vaccinating on a selective or delayed schedule should not post here to debate or argue accuracy or opinion of things posted. However, this forum will uphold Mothering's advocacy and support the right of all parents to make an informed decision regarding vaccinations and will not host posts that advocate mandatory vaccination. 

 

Vaccinations Debate

This is a hot topics forum regarding vaccinations. Debate is welcome but polite exchange of information and opinion is a priority. Personally directed negative comments will not be tolerated. Discuss the topic and not the individual. Moderation will be to uphold a comfortable posting atmosphere for all and members who do not heed these guidelines will be removed from the discussion.

BeckyBird likes this.

cynthia mosher is offline  
#141 of 141 Old 01-11-2014, 10:13 AM
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,430
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 298 Post(s)

This is a neat and short animated video on the history of smallpox for anyone who is interested.  It was a ted talk presentation a few months ago. 

 


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off