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#31 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 05:37 PM
 
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The only reason I don't vaccinate my kids (I am not "anti-vax" and really don't like that term), is because I have decided the risks outweigh the benefits. I don't really trust pharmaceutical companies but some drugs are good. I decide on a case by case basis. I don't trust the government completely but I also think there are some good government programs.

Please don't put me in a category when you don't even know what I believe. I'm a person with a mind. I do use it.
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#32 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 05:54 PM
 
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nm

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#33 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 06:01 PM
 
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Is it really any surprise that someone who believes the government is telling this huge lie might be slightly more likely to believe the government is telling these other big lies too than someone who trusts the government on vaccines is?

I agree with this.

 

 As much as I like to learn about 9/11, and as much as I hope for a new investigation, I do not believe it will change anything in our country.  People just don't give a care. (PM me if you want to talk or learn more!) 

The moon landing business.....so stupid! Why even bring that into the conversation?  What if everyone found out it was a hoax? What would change? Nothing, so let's move away from that argument altogether. It's not important to the conversation, and by the way, who cares if someone thinks it's a hoax? What does it matter to you anyhow? Get over it!

 

What IS important is what affects us NOW--vaccines, GMOs, health, and medicine. Leave all the other conspiracy theories out of this, because they only divert attention from the real issues.  I do believe GMOs are dangerous, so why not focus on that? Here's a little secret for you--I think I hate GMOs more than vaccines! You can opt out of vaccines, but it's reeeaaaallly hard to opt out of GMOs! Try to find processed food without soy, corn, cottonseed oil, sugar from sugar beets, or meat from animals that were not fed a diet containing soy, corn, or alfalfa! (because most of these are now gmo.) Good luck with that! So now, in order to avoid GMOs in your diet, you basically need to prepare everything yourself and know exactly where your food came from.  Talk about difficult!

 

I wonder why nobody addressed my GMO concerns.  What do you think about the fact that GMOs have not been proven safe for consumption, yet you feed them to your family? Many independent researchers are finding problems with GMOs, yet the government (practically run by Monsanto) assures you of their safety? Safety assurances without scientific evidence, and you're feeding it to your babies.

Did you miss my last post about the former GMO spokesman who became a GMO whistleblower?

I urge you to learn more. This goes beyond some silly internet argument, and I hope you can see that.

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#34 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 06:26 PM
 
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If you are interested, I have links about 9/11 from intelligent professionals, scholars, architects, engineers, lawyers, first responders, PhD's, psychology experts, etc. that I can PM YOU. 

Let's move on to something of immediate importance, shall we? Would you like to talk about GMOs now? I understand the author of your link does not believe GMOs are of any concern. Maybe we should discuss this, since 99% of you probably ate some for dinner!

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               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#35 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 06:33 PM
 
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And you can't separate theoretical GMOs from reality GMOs which are primarily, in terms of acreage, RoundUp Ready Corn & Soy & Bt Cotton. So GMO fantasizers are saying GMOs can 'decrease herbicide inputs' but reality (also the realm in which real science must operate) we see they are herbicide/seed JOINT VENTURES!

In any case, the VAST majority of US infant formula is GMO corn & soy, up to 66% GMO in the Parent's Choice brand. Is that a 'conspiracy theory'? No, it is a nutrition fact. Which brings in not just the transgenic issue itself, but the inseparable RoundUp residue issue as well.

And the majority of US infants are 100% formula fed, almost from birth. Now is that a conspiracy to make the US children less healthy? No, but a significant number of historical & contemporary institutional & governmental policies work very well together to accomplish the goal of increased formula sales & the profit motive plays a role.
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#36 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 06:49 PM
 
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I wonder why nobody addressed my GMO concerns.

 

Because this is the vaccine subforum.


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#37 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 06:55 PM
 
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There's some deep issues lying at the core of those arguments about 9/11 (as the arguments about CDC being a corrupt useless system). Here's how my debate has gone lately with several people that argue that there's a U.S conspiracy (9/11 CT) on 9/11:

orangeorchid: "Wouldn't the U.S. government need hundreds, thousands of people to implement their 9/11 scheme for: taking down buildings, surveillance, travel, security, training, authorization, etc."

9/11 c.t. : "Yes they would need lots of people to make it happen"

orangeorchid: "Don't you think that at least one of them will regret being involved in such an awful thing?"

9/11 c.t. : "They are too afraid to talk"

orangeorchid: "All of them? If it's thousands of people, there must be many who want to talk. Look at Snowden for example, and if they kill one, others will become nervous and may talk"

9/11 c.t.: "The government killed all involved"

 

That's the point where the discussion usually stops. The theorist has not realized, that the group of people that killed all involved may also feel remorse. Her theory has turned into a vicious circle of irrationality.

 

Off topic anecdotes.

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#38 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 06:59 PM
 
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Because this is the vaccine subforum.

 

Ridiculous answer.

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#39 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 07:06 PM
 
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The linked video by kathymuggle had some voodoo arguments about 9/11 (yes, I watched part of it).

 

This has been brought up twice now.

 

I linked the video because I thought the discussion of the term "conspiracy theorist" was interesting.  I was not trying to make any point on 911 - I know very little about 911.

 

I find it very interesting when some newbie decides to open with linking non-vaxxers to conspiracy theorists.  Ah, well, baitish.  I think most people can see through this and make vaccine decisions on evidence and not ad hominem attacks.  

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#40 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 07:13 PM
 
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If beliefs about the Moon Landing are relevant in this forum & can discredit someone's views, then so are 'anti-science' beliefs about GMO safety (like that they require FEWER chrmical inputs) that fly in the face of actual farming facts. These beliefs are equally capable of discrediting the author of the MJ's article's views.
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#41 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 08:15 PM
 
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http://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c2912

Would any of my fellow vax nerdlings have access to the full text? This looks like a fascinating read germane to this thread. My sense from this article is that the game is to employ mockery to change the subject and to marginalize anyone who questions a conflict of interest by labelling them a "conspiracy theorist."

What's going on in this thread is actually a specialized form of the ad hominem fallacy, poisoning the well. I strive to be a logical person, so this kind of discourse is fingernails on the chalkboard to me.
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#42 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 05:54 AM
 
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Schooling someone on 9/11? That sounds like quite a stretch. The linked video by kathymuggle had some voodoo arguments about 9/11 (yes, I watched part of it).

There's some deep issues lying at the core of those arguments about 9/11 (as the arguments about CDC being a corrupt useless system). Here's how my debate has gone lately with several people that argue that there's a U.S conspiracy (9/11 CT) on 9/11:

orangeorchid: "Wouldn't the U.S. government need hundreds, thousands of people to implement their 9/11 scheme for: taking down buildings, surveillance, travel, security, training, authorization, etc."

9/11 c.t. : "Yes they would need lots of people to make it happen"

orangeorchid: "Don't you think that at least one of them will regret being involved in such an awful thing?"

9/11 c.t. : "They are too afraid to talk"

orangeorchid: "All of them? If it's thousands of people, there must be many who want to talk. Look at Snowden for example, and if they kill one, others will become nervous and may talk"

9/11 c.t.: "The government killed all involved"

 

That's the point where the discussion usually stops. The theorist has not realized, that the group of people that killed all involved may also feel remorse. Her theory has turned into a vicious circle of irrationality.

 

Like the article on the first post implied, the conspiracy theorist will ignore all rational evidence and instead focus on an abnormality, regardless of whether that abnormality is real or not.

I don't want to prolong this tanget, but I will say, from the above, it clearly shows you have not done much research into 9/11, because you presented a very weak arguement.

 

There have been literally dozens of witness and insiders who have attempted to blow the whistle on various aspects of 9/11. So your arguement that the official story must be true because "someone would have talked" is no arguement at all, but just a dishonest diversion form the truth (same goes with vaccines). These whistleblowers have been very public, appearing at conferences, filling formal appeals, and they have made themselves available for interviews with the MSM. But not surprisingly they have been shunned, just like those doctors and scientists that have spoken out against vaccines.

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#43 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 08:09 AM
 
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Mirzam, you are correct! I'll just go ahead and get this out of the way, and when anyone else wants to bring up 9/11, I'll just direct them to this post.

 

You can watch my personal favorite video, presented by Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. This video is amazing, and I encourage all of you to click anywhere on the video, listen to one minute, and decide if it is worthy of your time. You will quickly see that these are experts, not nutcases, who are calling for a new investigation of that fateful day. There is NOTHING, nothing to be ashamed about if you are skeptical of 9/11.  Do not let peer pressure shape your opinions!

 

Links to sites:

*Scholars for 9/11 Truth  http://911scholars.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=72&Itemid=51 (for beginners)   and      http://stj911.org/         

*Architects and Engineers http://www.ae911truth.org/en/evidence.html

*Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials.......read that again. Not crazy lunatics like you had hoped! Sorry to disappoint ya...  http://patriotsquestion911.com/


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#44 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 10:29 AM
 
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Links to sites:

*Scholars for 9/11 Truth  http://911scholars.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=72&Itemid=51 (for beginners)   and      http://stj911.org/         

*Architects and Engineers http://www.ae911truth.org/en/evidence.html

*Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials.......read that again. Not crazy lunatics like you had hoped! Sorry to disappoint ya...  http://patriotsquestion911.com/

 

Haven't looked at the video yet, but I just started glancing at your bottom link as I was curious as to who these senior military and such were, and much to my surprise, it only took a minute or so to come across someone I recognized.  There third from the top of of the "pilots an aviation professionals" is John Lear who I've hear on coast to coast radio talking about how aliens working with the US government were behind 9/11, and also a some stuff about Roswell and how these aliens mutilate an eat humans.  Gotta say, my first impression is not that great.  Now we've got the Roswell Grays involved... sheesh... that's just what this thread needed. 

 

Why would a site going for an appearance of credibility include him?

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#45 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 11:00 AM
 
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orangeorchids, I find your posts personally offensive and disrepectful. You clearly are unable to debate the facts, so have had to resort to marginalizing us with the conspiracy theory argument. Which, incidently, has gotten very tired at this point. 

 

I have said I will not discuss 9/11 further on this thread, but you have not come within a nanometer of convincing me you have done any meaningful research on the topic if the best you can do is link to a National Geographic video! :rotflmao 

 

I have absolutely no problem with people believing that vaccines are safe and effective, and for choosing vaccination for themselves and their children. But for those that accept the government's postion that vaccines are unavoidably unsafe, or for whatever reason they decide they don't want to use a potentially dangerous medical treatment on themselves or their children, do they not have the human right to decline? They do not have to be insulted by being called nut jobs aka conspiracy theorists.


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#46 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 11:00 AM
 
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My question is: why are so many people so reluctant to question the mainstream interpretation of things that they are hostile towards anybody who does?  Remember what happened to Semmelweis, and Galileo, and Darwin, etc....?  Sure, sometimes the mainstream interpretation is right, but sometimes it's wrong too, and running around calling people "conspiracy theorists" doesn't contribute anything constructive, or even interesting, to the discussion, and certainly doesn't clarify which side is "right", only which side has better critical thinking, and debating skills.

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#47 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 11:48 AM
 
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The Galileo argument is ridiculous. 

 

"The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."

--Carl Sagan

 

 

Look up the "Galileo Fallacy"  

 

"The Galileo gambit, or Galileo fallacy, is the notion that if you are vilified for your ideas, you must be right. It refers to Galileo Galilei's famous persecution at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church for his defence of heliocentrism in the face of the orthodox Biblical literalism of the day.

 

In "reality", taking up the mantle of Galileo requires not just that you are scorned by the establishment but also that you are correct.[1]—that is, that the evidence supports your position. There is no necessary link between being perceived as wrong and actually being correct; usually if people perceive you to be wrong, you are wrong. However, the selective reporting of cases where people who were persecuted or ostracized for beliefs and ideas that later turned out to be valid has instilled a confidence in woo promoters and pseudoscientists that is difficult to shake. They really do forget the part where they have to prove themselves right in order to be like Galileo." 

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Galileo_gambit


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#48 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 11:50 AM
 
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Should we talk about JFK now?

 

Should we talk about   GMOs!!

Yes orangeorchids, why not finally get around to this subject?  After all, your original link did mention GMOs, right?  If you are finished covering all the other conspiracy theories like JFK, the moon, and 9/11, maybe we can talk about this now!  After all, it is probably the most relevant to the vaccination issue, and it was in your original post link. This is my attempt to get back on track with the discussion, so maybe you can too!

 

Pers, please view the architects and engineers link,  and video, even if it's only for a minute or two.


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#49 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 12:12 PM
 
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http://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c2912

Would any of my fellow vax nerdlings have access to the full text? This looks like a fascinating read germane to this thread. My sense from this article is that the game is to employ mockery to change the subject and to marginalize anyone who questions a conflict of interest by labelling them a "conspiracy theorist."

What's going on in this thread is actually a specialized form of the ad hominem fallacy, poisoning the well. I strive to be a logical person, so this kind of discourse is fingernails on the chalkboard to me.

 

If you click on "read responses," there are (at this posting) 24 responses to the article, with much discussion between the questioners and the editor of the BMJ.  Very interesting and informative reading.  You don't need access to the full text to read the responses (though I, too, would like to read the full text).

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#50 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 12:18 PM
 
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The Galileo argument is ridiculous. 

 

"The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."

--Carl Sagan

 

 

Look up the "Galileo Fallacy"  

 

"The Galileo gambit, or Galileo fallacy, is the notion that if you are vilified for your ideas, you must be right. It refers to Galileo Galilei's famous persecution at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church for his defence of heliocentrism in the face of the orthodox Biblical literalism of the day.

 

In "reality", taking up the mantle of Galileo requires not just that you are scorned by the establishment but also that you are correct.[1]—that is, that the evidence supports your position. There is no necessary link between being perceived as wrong and actually being correct; usually if people perceive you to be wrong, you are wrong. However, the selective reporting of cases where people who were persecuted or ostracized for beliefs and ideas that later turned out to be valid has instilled a confidence in woo promoters and pseudoscientists that is difficult to shake. They really do forget the part where they have to prove themselves right in order to be like Galileo." 

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Galileo_gambit

 

But nobody is using "the Galileo Gambit" as a means to establish correctness.  They are using it as a means to point out the ridiculousness of your approach, which is to lump any vaccine critic in with something most people scorn ("Tinfoil-hat-wearing-conspiracy-theorist!"), and then to attempt to transfer the scorn to the vaccine critic by association.

 

You see, you forget the part where you have to prove the vaccine critics wrong in order to prove that they are like the tinfoil-hat-wearing-conspiracy-theorists.

 

I continue to be amazed at the double standard you have, and am even more amazed that you think that nobody will notice it.

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#51 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 12:41 PM
 
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Arguments against vaccines are often based on conspiracy theories.

 

Often can mean different things to different people.   Quantify this please, with a source (preferably a fairly neutral one) otherwise this is simply opinion and fairly weak sauce.  

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#52 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 12:54 PM
 
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But nobody is using "the Galileo Gambit" as a means to establish correctness.  They are using it as a means to point out the ridiculousness of your approach, which is to lump any vaccine critic in with something most people scorn ("Tinfoil-hat-wearing-conspiracy-theorist!"), and then to attempt to transfer the scorn to the vaccine critic by association.

 

You see, you forget the part where you have to prove the vaccine critics wrong in order to prove that they are like the tinfoil-hat-wearing-conspiracy-theorists.

 

I continue to be amazed at the double standard you have, and am even more amazed that you think that nobody will notice it.

 

"They are using it as a means to point out the ridiculousness of your approach, which is to lump any vaccine critic in with something most people scorn ("Tinfoil-hat-wearing-conspiracy-theorist!")," 

 

Evidence please of where I ever said that every person that is a NVer is a conspiracy theorist? I said believing in conspiracies makes you a conspiracy theorist.  There are lots of NVers who just aren't satisfied with the curent data or feel like there is an under reporting of side effects and that is certainly not what I call a conspiracy theorist.  The ones who believe the government are purposefully hiding the effects of vaccines to make money or as some sort of way to depopulate countries or who believe that the government is "orchestrating" measles outbreaks I do consider conspiracy theorists.  

 

The OP was a study that showed a link between conspiracy theorists and being anti/non vaccine. Usually in a debate forum when someone starts a thread that has a study in it you debate the study. It's kind of the point. Whether you think the results are accurate etc.  I do believe there is sometimes a link and I was presenting evidence for that. 


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#53 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 02:55 PM
 
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I'm afraid you have already made up your mind (see link in post #1 which help explains why people against vaccines oppose science). There's no point in trying to convince you otherwise. Moreover, you have already made a predictable statement in post 41, implying I'm some kind of conspirator.

That's not my experience at all.  The person who first got me questioning the vaccine schedule was my microbiology professor.  Of course, she's not "opposed" to vaccines, but I'm pretty sure her statements would get her labled as "anti-vax", even though she's extremely pro-science, and science is the reason she advocated a critical approach to vaccinations.  And no, she's not the only pro-science, vaccine-cautious person I've met.

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#54 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 04:02 PM
 
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Atheists generally LOVE vaccines, since many of them substitute deity worship with Humanism & the idea that Science & Technology shall 'deliver us from Evil'. That is why it is considered subhuman Heresy by atheist groups like 'Skeptics' & Wired/NatGeo/NPR fans to question them.

Remember, NatGeo sponsors Orac & Steve Novella's blog.

That is why, as much as many hate him, I sorta still like Paul Offit, because he seems to leave the quasi religious element out of it in a way ScienceBlogs can't seem to.
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#55 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 04:06 PM
 
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In the National geographic documentary, it is stated how conspiracy theorists feel the need to find an explanation to everything, even if the explanation is over simplistic.

This is a similarity with those who are against vaccines. Without realizing it, their explanations are oversimplistic. Why? Because it is not based on any real (scientific) evidence. And when the scientific evidence is not available, conspiracy theories arise.

 

As a defense, they refer to themselves as 'not being mainstream'. Well I'm not mainstream, I'm an atheist and I bet several members cringed when they read this last sentence (and will probably judge me for it)

 

 

There is plenty of real scientific evidence (peer reviewed) on the dangers of vaccination and there is plenty of hard scientific evidence supporting alternative views on 9/11 (it is the official explanation that defies logic), Becky has provided several links.

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#56 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 04:09 PM
 
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Here's a video of a 'Thinking Atheist' getting really creepy on the topic of Vaxes. She actually compares Viruses to Jesus. She is a writer for NatGeo sponsored ScienceBlogs & regularly hurls insults & other totally non-objective/scientific moves.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdseVBWbw2w
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#57 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 04:14 PM
 
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You know, I haven't seen a poster reference specific posts by number since . . .
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#58 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 04:21 PM
 
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You know, I haven't seen a poster reference specific posts by number since . . .

 


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#59 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 04:48 PM
 
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This thread is making me feel barfy.

Seriously, is this what we've evolved into? Name calling? "You're a nutjob!!"

How does any of this have anything to do with vaccine debate? CALLING ME A CONSPIRACY THEORIST IS NOT AN ARGUMENT.

Losing faith in humanity by the second. Good thing I believe in Aliens. Next time they abduct me (which of course the government will try and cover up) I'm going to ask them to keep me on their planet.
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#60 of 139 Old 10-04-2013, 05:07 PM
 
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This thread is making me feel barfy.

Seriously, is this what we've evolved into? Name calling? "You're a nutjob!!"

How does any of this have anything to do with vaccine debate? CALLING ME A CONSPIRACY THEORIST IS NOT AN ARGUMENT.

Losing faith in humanity by the second. Good thing I believe in Aliens. Next time they abduct me (which of course the government will try and cover up) I'm going to ask them to keep me on their planet.

 

Who called you a conspiracy theorist? 

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