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#1 of 139 Old 10-02-2013, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hey everyone. A recent article came out saying there's a correlation between not believing in vaccines and believing the moon landing was fake (among other things). I don't know what to make of their argument, what do you guys think?

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/10/vaccine-denial-conspiracy-theories-gmos-climate

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#2 of 139 Old 10-02-2013, 03:58 PM
 
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He also believes concerns about gmo's are part of this vast conspiracy theory.

 

Frankly I don't care why other families choose to not vaccinate, but I seriously doubt if you did a poll in here that you are going to get a lot of moon-landing denialists.


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#3 of 139 Old 10-02-2013, 04:06 PM
 
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Yet another piece of "research" designed to marginalize non-vaxing parents. You'd think they would have better things to do with the time and money.


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#4 of 139 Old 10-02-2013, 07:44 PM
 
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I bet when the author speaks, all you hear is "Baa baa baaaaa". No room for critical thinking or questions of any sort.


 
 
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#5 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 05:12 AM
 
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If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.  Elbert Hubbard.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#6 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 05:21 AM
 
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op - you might like this video:

 

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/01/fake-skeptics-conspiracy-theorist-slur.html

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#7 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 09:58 AM
 
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'Conspiracy Theorist' is actually a slur that was propagated *on purpose* after the Warren Report specifically to marginalize.

Collusion facts are not conspiracy theories. All research to date on the issue has shown that human beings are monumentally bad @ operating outside their COIs.

The idea that to believe that there are issues with Vaccine Safety is to believe 'that all in science in medicine are evil & corrupt' is a fallacy of the highest order.
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#8 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 09:59 AM
 
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And I would say, no matter what the evidence shows, those that BELIEVE in a Dogma cannot be made to look @ the evidence.
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#9 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 10:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by orangeorchids View Post
 

A conspiracy theory video. Thanks but no thanks. I agree with the findings of Dr Lewandowsky. As the website says close to the end:

 

 

If you have not looked at the video, how can you know what is in it?  

 

It does bring up some interesting points about the term "conspiracy theorist" how different countries interpret things, etc.  

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#10 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 10:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by orangeorchids View Post
 

 

Hmmm, in the case of vaccines I would add to part of the quote above that: science is based on looking at all the evidence, rather than focusing on some abnormality (whether true or believed to be true).  No matter what the evidence shows, those that believe there's a conspiracy cannot be convinced otherwise. The debates found here are only useful if undecided parents are using the information within these forums to make a decision. Sadly, I don't think that is the case. Thanks for reading :)

 

I agree with Dinahx.  Anyone with a dogma cannot be made to look at the evidence.  This certainly applies to vaxxers as readily as non-vaxxers. I agree the debates here are most useful if undecided parents use information or links within these forums to make a decision.  I have no idea how often that happens - more than we see, of course, as a lot of undecideds are probably lurkers - but not a huge amount as MDC is not overly active.  

 

I was not thrilled with the article.  A lot of the wording showed bias.   I looked at the study too - meh.  IIRC one of the conclusions of the study was those who were conspiracy theorists (as defined by the researchers based on a questionnaire) were 2 or 3 times more likely to question vaccines than the general public.  This tells us very little.  It does not tell us what percentage of people who believe vaccines are problematic are conspiracy theorists.

 

In any event, I don't really care if a large percentage of non-vaxxers are defined as "conspiracy theorists"  (or, in other words, someone who does not readily accept everything the state and corporations tell them - hardly a horrible attribute).  I care whether they are right or wrong, and how strong the case is.     

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#11 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 10:44 AM
 
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Moon landing? Don't you mean "New Mexico Landing?"

Arguments like this make me want to throw my foil hat at the computer.

Seriously, if the only argument that can be made against me is "You're crazy. Look everyone! See how crazy she is?!" then I think we need to examine what actual evidence the folks making this argument have. They have nothing. They aren't even attacking the actual argument about the safety of vaccinations or the science on either side. They're no different than kids on a playground shouting names.

Rubbish!!!

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#12 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 10:45 AM
 
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These debates are useful as I refine my understanding of this issue continuously. Ultimately I can predict, but not with anywhere near 100% certainty where that will lead me, ultimately. I would say that is true for many here on both sides.

This decision has to be made for product after (ever increasing) product & many times through the life span in different states of personal & community health. Also there will always be questions & controversies surrounding it.

I also like to hear what both sides have to say about recent developments. And when an article (for example) doesn't even get a mention on here, IMO, that says something too.
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#13 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 10:48 AM
 
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Another thing this forum could be useful for is outbreak awareness. Probably not like Twitter, but if would make it here by & by.
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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#15 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 11:30 AM
 
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I don't think anyone who is familiar with the anti vaccine movement  is surprised in the least by this study.  Just look at popular anti vaccine sites, they are filled with conspiracy theories.  Here are some examples :

 

From the Australian Vaccination Network (Meryl Dorey) : 

 

 “The word ‘evil’ is much overused and I don’t say it lightly; but we are dealing with evil in the sense that the word is the reverse of ‘live’. Those behind the conspiracy to cull the human population and turn the rest into little more than computer terminals are anti-life.”

 

Source: http://nocompulsoryvaccination.blogspot.com/2009/07/flu-is-not-biggest-danger-its-vaccine.html

Meryl posted this article to the AVN blog and twitter 

"“A cabal of interbreeding families is seeking to impose a global fascist dictatorship of total human control.”

“The Illuminati plan for the world includes a mass cull of the population and the microchipping of every man, woman and child. Microchips would allow everyone to be tracked 24/7, but it goes much further than that.

Computer technology communicating with the chips has the potential to manipulate people mentally, emotionally and physically. This could be done en masse or individually through the chip’s unique transmitter-receiver signal. Killing someone from a distance would be a synch.”

More....

Make no mistake folks, this measles ‘outbreak’ was orchestrated for one reason and one reason only – to force the issue of compulsory vaccination.”

 

Source: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AVN/message/37076"

She also denies that HIV causes AIDS (another conspiracy theory) 

“But the court is definitely out on both the existence of an HIV virus and the connection between what is seen under the electron microscope (whatever that may be) with the symptoms we’ve come to call AIDS”.

Source: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AVN/message/41124

She also linked a video to her site that claimed that the flu vaccine is a secret contraceptive. 

“Yes, I agree! While we are already seen as rabid, idiotic fringe-dwellers by so many in the mainstream, it does our argument no good at all to bring in conspiracy theories which, though we may subscribe to them, are unprovable."

Source: AVN Yahoo! message 38725

Next up is VINE or Vaccine Information Network who, among  other things, believes there are "government child snatching agencies" 

 He also buys into the AIDS conspiracy 

 

And don't even get me started on whale who, along with being anti vaccine, also believes that reptilian overlords are taking over the world...or something. 

 

By definition, believing that the moon landing was faked, or that 9/11 is an inside job, or that Princess Diana faked her own death or was murdered by M16, or that the government is purposefully killing children through vaccines and hiding it *does* make you a conspiracy theorist.  These *are* conspiracy theories. 

 

 

 


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#16 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 12:10 PM
 
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Sigh...

When I was in college I took a philosophy course on logic. In the course we learned the structure of valid arguments and also the many invalid argumentative techniques used as smokescreens. The suggestion that people who choose not to vaccinate are crazy is just that, a smokescreen that is not an actual valid argument.

Take this example for instance: Let's say there is a crazy person who thinks she is the queen of England. She goes around everywhere saying she is the queen of England. But she also says "the sky is blue". If we use the strategy used in the post above, we could make the argument that of course the sky is not blue, I mean look at the source of this information. She's crazy! But actually, the source is irrelevant to the truth of the statement. Saying people who don't vaccinate are crazy does NOTHING to discredit their claims. It's just a personal attack at the root of it. It's meant to inflame. It's meaningless.

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#17 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 12:32 PM
 
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I can clearly see the point of this thread. You show us an article, then wait for all of us crazy conspiracy theorists to come out of the woodwork. Shall I take the bait, or leave it be?

I'll address one, and leave the other arguments for another day, as tempting as it may be to school you on 9/11.

Let's talk about GMOs.....now, folks, if you believe GMOs  are safe, and GMO skeptics are just crazy, then you need to learn more. Educate yourself about GMOs.  I'm asking you to learn more because I believe they are detrimental to the health of life on this planet.

Where is the "science" on GMOs? If you look to the FDA to keep you safe, well keep looking. The FDA has not preformed any safety studies on GMOs. So, ask yourself, "How much do I trust Monsanto"?

Quote:
 The FDA policy (unchanged since 1992) places responsibility on the producer or manufacturer to assure the safety of the food, explicitly relying on the producer/manufacturer to do so: “Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the producer of a new food to evaluate the safety of the food and assure that the safety requirement of section 402(a)(1) of the act is met.” So it is the company, not any independent scientific review, providing the research that is relied on to assert safety.

How's that for science? Still feel safe, warm, and fuzzy? Oh, but don't listen to me, I'm just a conspiracy theorist. I guess I'm bad because I don't think Monsanto is the epitome of all that is good and holy.

There are former Monsanto employees now holding influential government positions. Why is this important? Michael Taylor, former Monsanto executive, is now on the FDA as Deputy Commissioner of Foods. Does this concern you in any way? Talk about the fox guarding the hen house. Revolving door politics is not safe, and it's a shame you people don't hold your government to higher standards.

 

http://commonground.ca/2013/10/dr-thierry-vrain-gmo-whistleblower/

Quote:
 • Dr. Thierry Vrain, a former soil biologist and genetic scientist, worked for Agriculture Canada for 30 years. He was the designated spokesperson to assure the public of the safety of GMO crops. Since retiring 10 years ago, after taking into account scientific evidence ignored by most of the bio-tech industry promoters and government regulators, Dr. Vrain has reversed that position and now warns of the dangers from GMOs.

Educate yourself. Don't worry about your peers calling you names (like conspiracy theorist). Think for yourself, judge the evidence. You don't have to follow the others if they are wrong.

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#18 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 12:35 PM
 
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For anyone interested in making a difference, there is a worldwide March Against Monsanto coming soon. Find a location near you!

http://www.march-against-monsanto.com/

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 "Medical propaganda ops are, in the long run, the most dangerous. They appear to be neutral. They wave no political banners. They claim to be science. For these reasons, they can accomplish the goals of overt fascism without arousing suspicion.” — Jon Rappoport
 
 
 
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#19 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 01:00 PM
 
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Teacozy, the term "conspiracy theory" and its variant, "conspiracy theorists" should not be part of any discussion or debate here.  

 

I'm sure that there are some people with mental illness who are suffering from delusional paranoia.  Those people have nothing to do with the fact that there is massive corruption within the US government, within the pharmaceutical industry, and extending to the news media. It's become popular amongst defenders of the current vaccination program to use the term "conspiracy theorist" to insult anyone who points out corruption, and to shift the focus from that corruption to the person pointing it out.  It's worse than insulting; it's a calculated maneuver designed paint the opposition as mentally ill, rather than defending your own position with facts.

 

If accusing vaccine critics of "conspiracy theorism" is the best defense for vaccines that you can think of, perhaps it's time you re-examine the issue?  Seriously, is there anyone alive today who could possibly look at the US government/big business right now and assume that it's corruption-free?   :rotflmao 

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#20 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 03:14 PM
 
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@Becky  Was your post about GMOs directed at me? Because I don't recall ever saying anything about GMOs.  Also, you could not "school" me on 9/11. 

 

@Taximom "Seriously, is there anyone alive today who could possibly look at the US government/big business right now and assume that it's corruption-free?" 

 

There is a difference in believing the government does some underhanded things to believing the government is capable of doing something like conspiring to murder thousands of Americans on 9/11.   It's like saying "Well, you don't think doctors are perfect do you? Some of them may cheat on their taxes or cheat on their spouses so how can you *not* believe they are implanting our children with microchips?"  

 

Oliver Willis explained it well "...just willing to take that leap a little further than a responsible normal person would take it. For instance, it isn’t in dispute that the U.S. government has intervened in the affairs of foreign nations in order to produce results that are more in favor with us geopolitically. Now, the difference is between those of us who acknowledge known, uncomfortable facts and the conspiracy theorist who cites these cases as evidence of a globe-spanning conspiracy that controls the levers of power.

It really is that simple. You take something that is true, and use it as a launching pad into what is ludicrous. Then when challenged, someone like Jones can always refer to the true fact, and ask the interested party if they can believe “X” then why can’t they believe “Y” which is at least an adjacent set of ideas." 

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/04/why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories-and-why-you-shouldnt/

I think pointing out the conspiracy theories that some of these sites entertain is important because parents go to these sites looking for medical information.  If my doctor believed in the kinds of things I posted earlier, I would find a new doctor.  Their credibility *does* matter to me and the source where you get information that impacts the health and medical decisions of children is important.   I guess some of you disagree and that's fine. 


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#21 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 03:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

@Becky  Was your post about GMOs directed at me? Because I don't recall ever saying anything about GMOs.  Also, you could not "school" me on 9/11. 

 

@Taximom "Seriously, is there anyone alive today who could possibly look at the US government/big business right now and assume that it's corruption-free?" 

 

There is a difference in believing the government does some underhanded things to believing the government is capable of doing something like conspiring to murder thousands of Americans on 9/11.   It's like saying "Well, you don't think doctors are perfect do you? Some of them may cheat on their taxes or cheat on their spouses so how can you *not* believe they are implanting our children with microchips?"  

 

Oliver Willis explained it well "...just willing to take that leap a little further than a responsible normal person would take it. For instance, it isn’t in dispute that the U.S. government has intervened in the affairs of foreign nations in order to produce results that are more in favor with us geopolitically. Now, the difference is between those of us who acknowledge known, uncomfortable facts and the conspiracy theorist who cites these cases as evidence of a globe-spanning conspiracy that controls the levers of power.

It really is that simple. You take something that is true, and use it as a launching pad into what is ludicrous. Then when challenged, someone like Jones can always refer to the true fact, and ask the interested party if they can believe “X” then why can’t they believe “Y” which is at least an adjacent set of ideas." 

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/04/why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories-and-why-you-shouldnt/

I think pointing out the conspiracy theories that some of these sites entertain is important because parents go to these sites looking for medical information.  If my doctor believed in the kinds of things I posted earlier, I would find a new doctor.  Their credibility *does* matter to me and the source where you get information that impacts the health and medical decisions of children is important.   I guess some of you disagree and that's fine. 

 

Oh yes, Becky could "school" you on 9/11 no question about that. If you don't think a government is capable of conspiring to harm their own citizens, google Operation Northwoods.

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#22 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 03:38 PM
 
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But you don't have to believe in a 'global conspiracy' to believe that there are safety issues with vaccines that are systematically downplayed. It is like the HIV given to Hemophiliacs in the 1980s (as depicted in the film Bad Blood). That really happened & a number of *factors* conspired to make it possible (inertia, disbelief, ignorance, paying for plasma, & lack of understanding of the severity of HIV & Pharma prioritizing profits over people). That is different from saying *individuals* conspired.
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#23 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 03:43 PM
 
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Oh yes, Becky could "school" you on 9/11 no question about that. If you don't think a government is capable of conspiring to harm their own citizens, google Operation Northwoods.

 



Oh my goodness, I ASSURE you, she could not school teacozy on 9/11, nor me neither. If your argument against vaccines is as well-supported as 9/11 conspiracies, then I have to say they must be complete bunk.
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#24 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 04:08 PM
 
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Team Beckybird here.

 

I remember BeckyBird saying a few weeks ago that she thinks of 911 very often. If I were interested in 911, I would love to pick her brain on it.

 

Why couldn't she "school" you on it?  Or is someone who is non-vax  incapable of "schooling" you on any subject?  How dismissive...and sad.

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#25 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 04:11 PM
 
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Within the different vaccine communities, there are different opinions on different things other than vaccines. For example, there are people of different religious beliefs and different political beliefs. But those other ideas have NOTHING to do with vaccines. I may agree on very little with someone but agree with them on vaccines. On the other hand I may agree with someone on a broad range of things except vaccines, like with my best friend. So, I can't paint any one side with the same broad brush. People have different views on different things. Generalizing is not helpful to either side.
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Team Beckybird here.

 

I remember BeckyBird saying a few weeks ago that she thinks of 911 very often. If I were interested in 911, I would love to pick her brain on it.

 

Why couldn't she "school" you on it?  Or is someone who is non-vax  incapable of "schooling" you on any subject?  How dismissive...and sad.

 

Has nothing to do with her being non-vax; even if I didn't know she was non-vax  I would say the same.  She couldn't because I have read REAMS of info on 9/11, on both sides, and I'm quite sure that she wouldn't have anything new to tell me that hasn't already been thoroughly debunked.

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#27 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 04:34 PM
 
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I'd like to know how 9/11 has anything to do with vaccine debate, regardless of what your opinion is on it.

This thread is unfortunate. It has nothing to do with children, nothing to do with injury, and nothing to do with illness. The only thing it is about is "being right". That really doesn't help anyone.
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#28 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 04:34 PM
 
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If you have not looked at the video, how can you know what is in it?  

 

It does bring up some interesting points about the term "conspiracy theorist" how different countries interpret things, etc.  

 

Does it? It's been a little bit since I watched it, and forgive me if I don't feel like watching it again, but while I remember it claiming that Europeans were more open to such ideas, I don't remember it actually preventing any evidence that European in general were more likely to believe/less likely to laugh at the idea that the BBC was in on 9/11 and is helping cover up that the American government deliberately brought down building 7 that day. 

 

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Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post
 

 

Oh yes, Becky could "school" you on 9/11 no question about that. If you don't think a government is capable of conspiring to harm their own citizens, google Operation Northwoods.

 

Where are all these people arguing that our government hasn't done and isn't capable of doing terrible things?  Especially with Bush at the helm?

 

Ask most people who believe Bush is evil incarnate who used 9/11 to his advantage and lied about Iraq having WMD in order to take the war where he wanted it to go (which actually was conspiring to harm US citizens, considering all the US soldiers who were seriously injured or died there) and they will still laugh at the idea that our government orchestrated 9/11.  Not because they don't believe the Bush government is capable of wanting do such a thing so much as because of the implausibility of them being able to pull it off and how many of the "truths" 9/11 truthers base their theories on have simple explanations. 

 

The idea from the conspiracy theory video that the BBC reporting that a building that was believed to be on the verge of collapse and had been evacuated in preparation for such getting the story mixed up an reporting that it had collapsed twenty minutes before it did is taken as any sort of evidence has to be the most out there theory of all. It was a very confusing day, and all the news sources were in a rush to be the first to get the story out there, which is a shame in itself because getting the story right should come before getting it first.  A lot of news mistakes were made that day. 

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#29 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 04:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dalia View Post

I'd like to know how 9/11 has anything to do with vaccine debate, regardless of what your opinion is on it.

This thread is unfortunate. It has nothing to do with children, nothing to do with injury, and nothing to do with illness. The only thing it is about is "being right". That really doesn't help anyone.

 

I would not have thought to really link  vaccine denial to 9/11 or HIV/AIDS denial before seeing them side by side so many time on this board.  Although my other bit of anec-data is that the only person I've ever met in real life who thought the moon landing was a hoax was also very strongly against vaccines. 

 

This study may not be the greatest one ever in terms of reliability, but still, the results make a lot of sense to me.  It is absolutely not saying that if someone doesn't believe in vaccines then obviously they must not believe in climate change or whatever too, and while there are some anti-vaxers here who believe the US government orchestrated 9/11 and others who believe HIV is a benign virus not the cause of AIDS, I don't think there is anyone here who actually thinks the moon landing was a hoax.  

 

There are a lot of different reasons why people are anti-vax.  Some are for purely religious reasons, and others are because they think the goverment is wrong and maybe a little to influenced by big pharma, so just not really seeing that vaccines are more dangerous than disease.  But then there are those who believe that the goverment is helping big pharma use vaccines deliberately make people sick  so the drug company can then line their pockets treating the resulting chronic diseases. 

 

Is it really any surprise that someone who believes the government is telling this huge lie might be slightly more likely to believe the government is telling these other big lies too than someone who trusts the government on vaccines is?

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#30 of 139 Old 10-03-2013, 05:00 PM
 
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Trusting 'the government' is actually the most ludicrous stance on this thread. You might as well trust '7-11' or 'Phizer Corp'

No corporation or government has ever or will ever deserve TRUST or FAITH. That is what is truly insane & flies in the face of every bit of history/fact.

Let's review: trust is for individuals (not institutions), faith is for God/gods & perhaps utopian ideals like 'love' or 'science'. All others must submit data & need external regulation.
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