Is acetaminophen behind the autism epidemic? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 97 Old 11-21-2013, 09:27 AM
 
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That google books link doesn't prove anything, it is a secondary source & subjective. I suggested looking @ the very first papers published. Yk, primary sources.

So obvious 'it hits you in the face' is actually also just so subjective. People w/o diagnostic responsibilities retroactively diagnosing historical figures is an inherently suspect enterprise.
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#62 of 97 Old 11-21-2013, 10:17 AM
 
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True Dina. My grandparents' generation had kids from 18-mid 40ies. They had no birth control really so they had kids until menopause.

 

EineMutti, vaccination was compulsory but was done much more carefully. Vaccines were spread apart - I never received more than one vaccine at a time. OPV and DTP were not given at the same time to anyone in my family. We got BCG at birth but then nothing until 9 months... It's a very different schedule that only featured BCG, DTP, OPV and measles and starting in the mid80ies MMR instead of measles. I don't think the schedule is comparable at all to todays' schedules. I do wonder if anyone could find a package insert of the vaccines given in the ex soviet countries. From my understanding they made their own and didn't purchase them from "Western pharma companies".

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#63 of 97 Old 11-21-2013, 11:11 AM
 
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Acetaminophen usage rates and autism rates do mirror each other   Acetaminophen was rarely used prior to 1980 but replaced aspirin, for pregnant women and children, after aspirin was associated with Reye's syndrome. This is when the autism rates started to increase.  Autism did occur prior to 1980 but it was very rare.

 

Boys get autism 4-5 times more often than girls.  Acetaminophen being a causal factor provides on of the few plausible explanations why. In the mid 1990's, pain management guidelines started suggesting that boys get 5-7 doses of acetaminophen in the vulnerable first days of life with the circumcision procedure. At this time, metabolic systems are not functioning well. Worldwide and US state autism rates highly correlate to their circumcision rates.  Worldwide prenatal acetaminophen usage rates also correlate to the autism rates.  Obviously, correlation is not causation, but this is interesting enough that this should be investigated further.

 

A new study in Nature states "Our findings suggest that chemicals and genetic mutations that impair topoisomerases could commonly contribute to autism spectrum disorder and other neurodevelopmental disorders".  NAPQI the toxic metabolite of acetaminophen is a topoisomerase poison.  Just doubling the dose of acetaminophen can cause it to convert to NAPQI.

 

Caution and more research is warranted!

http://www.ehjournal.net/content/12/1/41

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23995680

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15035644


Rarely used prior to 1980? What are you basing this on? I was a kid in the 60s and 70s. I was raised along with my cousins a lot of the time, and we were all given APAP for fevers in the 60s and 70s, as it was available OTC. Back then it was simply called "liquid aspirin" (Aspirin itself cannot be held in solution or suspension due to its molecular make up.) or simply by its brand name, Tylenol. It was often used in infants and toddlers who could not chew baby aspirin, for kids with tummy problems as it didn't cause the GI distress that aspirin does, or just out of the parent's choice.  When I grew up there was a bottle of "liquid aspirin" (acetaminophen) in everyone's medicine cabinet. Tylenol, APAP, acetaminophen, Para whatever you want to call it was introduced originally as an OTC fever reducer and pain medication in 1953.

 

It's actually one of the safer meds in the US pharmacopeia, as long as one doesn't overdose on it. I have a child "on the spectrum" and I highly doubt aceto has anything to do with it.

 

I'll wait for more evidence based data and peer reviewed data before I completely make up my mind about this.

 

My children were selectively immunized after our oldest dd suffered a vaccine injury, (and I have a child who is considered "on the spectrum" but I am still debating the actual link between Asperger's and true autism)  but I am not going to jump on every new bandwagon without a lot of scientific proof. APAP usage is so ubiquitous that I am finding it hard to link it with autism.

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#64 of 97 Old 11-21-2013, 11:28 AM
 
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EineMutti, vaccination was compulsory but was done much more carefully. Vaccines were spread apart - I never received more than one vaccine at a time. OPV and DTP were not given at the same time to anyone in my family. We got BCG at birth but then nothing until 9 months... It's a very different schedule that only featured BCG, DTP, OPV and measles and starting in the mid80ies MMR instead of measles. I don't think the schedule is comparable at all to todays' schedules. I do wonder if anyone could find a package insert of the vaccines given in the ex soviet countries. From my understanding they made their own and didn't purchase them from "Western pharma companies".

 

 

 

I actually found my Impfausweis. And my Jungpionierausweis. ;) Will have a look at the schedule. 

 

What about this though? 

 

Conclusions: Because the incidence of autism among 2 to 5 year olds increased markedly among boys born in each year separately from 1988 to 1993 while MMR vaccine coverage was over 95% for successive annual birth cohorts, the data provide evidence that no correlation exists between the prevalence of MMR vaccination and the rapid increase in the risk of autism over time. The explanation for the marked increase in risk of the diagnosis of autism in the past decade remains uncertain.

 

http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7284/460

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#65 of 97 Old 11-21-2013, 06:49 PM
 
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Actually tho: if you read the early, academic papers on Autism, it isn't like: hey, now we have a word for this thing that has always been observed. It is like 'this is a new phenomenon we have never observed before'. I personally do not believe in over diagnosis playing a major factor in the epidemic increase, nor am I a fan of 'retroactively diagnosing historical geniuses'.

nor am I and many others

 

 

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That is how it used to be before the criteria of diagnosis has changed. A while ago, I worked with young adults with autism and they were all severely impaired. Developmentally between 12 and 36 months, mostly non-verbal. But then, 100 years ago, they wouldn't have been diagnosed with autism either, but with "mental retardation". 

 

I just simply can't see how an 18-year-old, who is developmentally at the age of a toddler, who is incontinent and highly aggressive, is supposed to have the same diagnosis as a six-year-old, who has normal or high intelligence, but has trouble changing routine and instead of relating to peers, gets obsessed with dinosaur books? The "spectrum" is a little wide now and more and more people are getting included, many of them not sick or damaged. That goes for ADHD, too. 

That really is not at all how I feel.

I know many now do have children that are ADHD and they know it's not perfect and they need the help with their child.

 

this is OT but you may or may not know how things here in the US really work -

 

You as a parent WANT your child to be "on the spectrum" in many cases - you are told and encouraged to have a diagnose on the "spectrum" - you NEED IT. That does not mean their is over dig nose going on on Autism, since autism is not the only item on the specturm.

We do not have free health care, and if you are middle class parent (since so many with a child with a disability file for bankruptcy due to out of pocket medical expenses) - you only get a very limited amount of FREE "early intervention" help - IF you are lucky enough to have insurance you NEED a spectrum diagnose in many states for services, without it most parents can't make it. Public school only do so much and while they are mandated, many do not push for their child's rights (they simply don't know all their child is entitled too) but additional therapy hold more weigh if their child is classified as a "spectrum" child. The guide lines are changing and many are very much in fear that they will loose what little help they are getting having their child a "spectrum" child.

IRL I know a family (their child was developmentally on par for his age, but got a brain tumor) that maxed our their insurance (and the ACA is not 100% yet) - they needed their child to be on the spectrum after his surgery, regardless that he wasn't autistic in any normal definition of the term autistic. They were helped by his Dr's to do this just to get the care he needed.

 

Each states runs things differently and in certain states, if you don't have your child on the "spectrum" that can mean a whole lot in their care or lack their of.


 

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#66 of 97 Old 11-21-2013, 07:29 PM
 
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Serenbat - so are you suggesting the increase in diagnose in the USA is due to a wish to get kids on the spectrum to qualify for help? That's an interesting idea - not one is heard before, but may make sense.

Shouldn't be an issue in most European countries with excellent tax funded health care. smile.gif

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#67 of 97 Old 11-21-2013, 08:12 PM
 
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Serenbat - so are you suggesting the increase in diagnose in the USA is due to a wish to get kids on the spectrum to qualify for help? That's an interesting idea - not one is heard before, but may make sense.

Shouldn't be an issue in most European countries with excellent tax funded health care. smile.gif

NO! not in "autism" but autism is not all that is included, you are aware of that? 

 

Pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified - is NOT full autism yet is included in "spectrum" - I know someone that had to get that to get that for their child to receive more services. After his surgery is was back developmentally to a newborn and he had several "traits" but clearly it was caused by the removal of the tumor on his pituitary gland. He had the surgery at age 3, he had been developmentally "normal" and on par prior. They had no clue there was even a problem except for his head size that cause testing to occur.

 

Every state and every insurance company (until ACA is 100%) picks and choose a WHOLE lot of what they will and will not cover for a child and you max out with insurance real quickly! - the federal mandates mostly are for public school(equal education) and "early intervention" (a part of public schools in most states) and they do not cover most therapies or extra services a child can get if they are "labeled as on the spectrum". 

 

ETA- most people are quite clueless when it comes to adults and how they DO NOT get many services! Some states allow them to attend public school til 21 but not in all states and additional services simply end! And the end is near for many that do have sever forms of autism, we are facing the largest group ever to need assistance that are coming into adulthood. 

 

ETA-again, about a year ago there was a tread in the special needs parenting on these purposed changes to the spectrum and how it might effect care for those that are high vs low functioning

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#68 of 97 Old 11-22-2013, 01:00 PM
 
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Serenbat - so are you suggesting the increase in diagnose in the USA is due to a wish to get kids on the spectrum to qualify for help? That's an interesting idea - not one is heard before, but may make sense.

Shouldn't be an issue in most European countries with excellent tax funded health care. smile.gif

It's not as simple as how you put it.  

 

There is a true increase in the number of children who are having major behavioral issues that are consistent with those on the autism spectrum.  These children may not be non-verbal, incontinent, spinning, flapping, rocking,or banging their head on the wall  24-7, but they still have major issues that prevent them from functioning adequately in the classroom.  Ask any kindergarten teacher who has taught for more than 20 years.  This increase is real, and not a result of improved diagnosis.

 

Remember, the diagnostic criteria changed in DSM-4 in 1994. That was 19 years ago, but diagnoses were still increasing steadily, every year, through 2008 (the latest year we have official CDC statistics for children with autism diagnoses, with the children in those rates being born in 2000).


What Serenbat is talking about is the fact that if your child displays behaviors and difficulties consistent with those found on the autism spectrum (such as speech delay, vestibular issues, lack of eye contact, failure to learn appropriate social skills, and/or the rigidity/ OCD behavior associated with Asperger's syndrome), parents are strongly encouraged to have their child screened for autism.  In the past, parents have often balked at this, because they don't want their child labeled.  But obtaining a diagnosis (and therefore a label) is often the only way to get help to DEAL with the behaviors and difficulties.

 

There is so much that is purposely muddled in the issue of autism.  Diagnosis is one.  Another is the issue of whether autistic children respond to dietary intervention.  There have recently been "studies" (i use the term loosely, you'll see why in a second) that were purposely set up to read to the average citizen as though it were a new study disproving the link between autism and gluten/casein.  But when you look at the "studies," what they are is a retrospective of medical records kept before the average person--no, before the average DOCTOR--had ever heard of gluten.  So when they analyzed the records, they found (surprise surprise) no indication of gluten-free or casein-free diets being at all helpful.

 

If you know anything at all about gluten-free diets, this is exactly what you'd expect. When I was first diagnosed with celiac disease, less than a decade ago, I met with 2 separate nutritionists.  One thought that Rice Krispies and Corn Flakes were gluten-free, and suggested I eat them (they are not).  The other thought that white bread (as opposed to wheat bread) was gluten-free, and told me to buy it fresh at a specific local bakery (whose owner immediately told me that she had never carried gluten-free bread, and that she wouldn't even order any, because she couldn't sell it in a facility with wheat flour blowing all over).

 

The point is, if these 2 were supposedly experts in nutrition, and they hadn't the faintest idea of what a gluten-free diet really entails, AS LATE AS THE MID-1990's, I don't think you're going to find that desperate parents of autistic children, trying a complicated diet in the pre-internet dark ages, would actually have managed a 100% gluten-free diet. 

 

And anyone with celiac or gluten sensitivity will tell you (as well as anyone whose autistic child turns out to be sensitive to gluten):  with a gluten-free diet, it has to be 100%, or you will not likely see any improvement.  

 

So any retrospective looking at medical records for proof of a diet's effectiveness, and looking at records from a time where the diet was poorly understood, is going to be useless.

 

Sorry for the veer off the subject, but I figured it was something that you probably are not aware of, and I think it's important.

 

Back to the subject, this would be a problem, no matter what country you live in, and no matter what the insurance system is, because there are so many more needing this specific kind of help than ever before.

 

Here in the US, where these things have always been discussed more openly than in the UK, what is coming up more and more often is the subject of Where To Put The Autistic Adults When Their Parents Can No Longer Care For Them.

 

Because we haven't always had 1% of the population with an autism diagnosis--not even when you count the ones who used to be diagnosed as MR, or psychotic.

I volunteer at a residential facility for severely impaired adults.  It's the only one of its kind in our metropolitan area.   It does not house 1% of the adult population, for starters.  More importantly, the adults in the facility are almost exclusively NOT AUTISTIC.  There are a few--maybe about 10%.  But most have Down Syndrome, other genetic disorders that result in severe mental restriction, or had obvious brain damage that resulted in their being in a slightly-more-than-vegetative existence (most of those are unresponsive, and unable to make purposeful movement-- in wheelchairs or worse).

This is where autistic people--no matter what their official diagnosis--would have been sent as they reached adulthood and/or as their parents became unable to care for them.

 

They aren't there.

 

If they've always been part of the population, we would know.  

 

So no health insurance in the world is financially capable of handling this, even if they wanted to.  And in the US, they DON'T want to.   And the reason is $$$$$$$$$$

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#69 of 97 Old 11-22-2013, 01:27 PM
 
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I volunteer at a residential facility for severely impaired adults.  It's the only one of its kind in our metropolitan area.   It does not house 1% of the adult population, for starters.  More importantly, the adults in the facility are almost exclusively NOT AUTISTIC.  There are a few--maybe about 10%.  But most have Down Syndrome, other genetic disorders that result in severe mental restriction, or had obvious brain damage that resulted in their being in a slightly-more-than-vegetable existence (most of those are in wheelchairs or worse).

This is where autistic people--no matter what their official diagnosis--would have been sent as they reached adulthood and/or as their parents became unable to care for them.

 

 

So no health insurance in the world is financially capable of handling this, even if they wanted to.  And in the US, they DON'T want to.   And the reason is $$$$$$$$$$

I don't want to stay OT but I feel it really should be out there for those who are non-US and may not know - what Taxi is talking about here also is not a freebie!

 

MOST do not even have this outlet-and if you do, even if it would be a low cost or community based program that would pick up the tab, it is very hard for a parent of a child to even take their child there - bus service, really ends the minute your child isn't in public school - the parent eats the cost. This will be a huge issue in the coming years for us to face as a nation and it's all about $$$$$ as she put it.  This is something we have never faced, to pretend that this "autism" is the same as in the past is clearly not accurate. These are children/adults now with total different needs vs the general population that needed mental health aid. 

 

And it really should be stressed I was not talking those (even children) that are MR, Downs, etc - they are not in the "spectrum" and are classified by what they have- example children/young adults with schizophrenia are not thrown in with those on the "spectrum" and causing the numbers to be inflated. They are not being lumped together. 

 

When so many don't even except that there is this population (and that it is increasing) that are classified as on the "spectrum", it will only hurt the lack of care these children/adults receive. 


 

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Anectdotal again... but I have not seen one, not ONE child who profited AT ALL from the GFCF diet. Half the kids in the boarding school for autistic children are on GFCF. VERY strictly. Not a trace of gluten gets into their mouths and neither my colleagues nor I have seen any improvement whatsoever. The food they get is non GMO, all organic, mostly Paleo, no artificial anything, grass-fed cows, free range eggs, etc. 

 

However, we don't profit from gluten in our diet anyway, and it is the parent's wish, so no harm done. It is sad though that so many parents had so much hope that a dietary change would help improve the behaviours, but it does not. Mind you, those are kids who really are severely affected,  not the ones Taximom has described, kids who have issues in a classroom. It may be different for children who are not as severely affected. I, too, would love a proper study on diet and behaviour in special needs children. I have seen what artificial colours can do to ADHD.kids, it is truly scary. 

 

@Serenbat: It is different here. While a diagnosis of course gets you more help and better services, the diagnosis for the child you described shouldn't be PDD, but brain trauma due to a tumour and surgery. My boy has MDEM and his development was affected. The worst inflammatory "event" he had left him blind and 100% paralysed. It took months of several therapies per day (visual stimulation, swimming, Vojta, Padovan, Petö, hippotherapy, occupational therapy, swallowing therapy, speech therapy, animal therapy) to get him where he is now. And another two years of a special needs status and 1:1 at nursery and then school. He had impulse control issues (not aggression, but constant, constant talking with no break and not a lot of it made sense, plus restlessness), severe dysgrammatism and weakness in his legs. Would he have had a PDD diagnosis in the US to get that? 

 

Having kids who have a different underlying condition thrown into the "spectrum pot" would raise the number of autistic children even more. So do all those kids who are now diagnosed with  PDD, ODD, ADHD who live on junk food and TV or computer games. The decline in abilities of children is visible in the UK and Germany also, and it is getting worse, despite vaccination rates going down or staying the same (I posted a link on that). Teachers who have been working for decades will confirm this... Social change? Overprotection? Too much junk, TV, video games? 

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 Would he have had a PDD diagnosis in the US to get that? I would not think to diagnosis your child - this thread is not about this.

 

Having kids who have a different underlying condition thrown into the "spectrum pot" would raise the number of autistic children even more. So do all those kids who are now diagnosed with  PDD, ODD, ADHD who live on junk food and TV or computer games.  ??? The decline in abilities of children is visible in the UK and Germany also, and it is getting worse, despite vaccination rates going down or staying the same (I posted a link on that). Teachers who have been working for decades will confirm this... Social change? Overprotection? Too much junk, TV, video games? This is what you think the "spectrum pot" as you call, is about? that's insulting! :irked

 

I can tell you and others can as well, teachers here do see major changes and it is not at all what you are describing.


 

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#72 of 97 Old 11-23-2013, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"Too much Tylenol in pregnancy could affect child's development, study finds"

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/too-much-tylenol-pregnancy-could-affect-childs-development-study-finds-2D11644164

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#73 of 97 Old 11-24-2013, 12:18 AM
 
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Thanks for sharing the link. Interesting - I will watch for the ongoing studies.

It's reassuring to me that they found this potential link and are studying it further - regardless of the Big Pharma profit machine. smile.gif Personally this reinforces my confidence that if any vaccination had serious long term side effects it would also be noticed and studied.

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I agree to an extent, PSM, but judging from the extreme hostility to the news when I posted it on my FB from loyal Tylenol users, I would expect that news of serious side effects from any well utilized & beloved med would be initially met with hostility & resistance. (I only posted it b/c it is interesting that Tylenol gets so much bad press of late).

My DH's uncle actually threw down the Conspiracy Theory gambit even tho I am *very careful* to only post credible links from mainstream sources.
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 Personally this reinforces my confidence that if any vaccination had serious long term side effects it would also be noticed and studied.

Like with Japan and the HPV vaccine? 


 

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#76 of 97 Old 11-24-2013, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Personally this reinforces my confidence that if any vaccination had serious long term side effects it would also be noticed and studied.

 

Like with Australia and the flu vaccine for children? And Europe and the narcolepsy link with the flu vaccine? Or how about the Urabe strain MMR vaccine? It was noticed in other countries enough to be banned, but given full liability protection in the U.K.

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#77 of 97 Old 11-24-2013, 02:39 PM
 
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There are a few--maybe about 10%.  But most have Down Syndrome, other genetic disorders that result in severe mental restriction, or had obvious brain damage that resulted in their being in a slightly-more-than-vegetable existence (most of those are in wheelchairs or worse).

 

 

I wish people wouldn't use that term. My boy was in a coma, blind and paralysed. That was my BABY. Not a vegetable. The day he learned to sit in his little wheel chair, eating again for the first time and smiling was one of the happiest days of my life. It's VEGETATIVE. Not VEGETABLE. 

 

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EineMutti, thanks for sharing with us. I did not know there was a specific term to use, so I'm glad you brought this up. I will be sure to use the term "vegetative", not "vegetable".

Your son is a handsome little guy!  It's wonderful that he has come so far with his recovery.


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#79 of 97 Old 11-24-2013, 04:12 PM
 
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 Increased consumption of organic food and autism mirror each other too.

 

There is more and more evidence that autism starts in the womb during the time when even the most mainstream mothers are careful with consumption of anything.

 

I understand the urge to find a simple explanation but there is none.  Autism is one of those complex thing that is cause by complex interplay  of genetic and environmental causes.

 

Signs of austim are not diagnosed at 2 months.

 

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-autism-babies-eye-contact-two-months-20131106,0,7124658.story#axzz2lbyivBDY

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#80 of 97 Old 11-24-2013, 04:23 PM
 
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As per the question the title poses…..I don't know.  I have no idea what is behind the rise in chronic conditions in children (including but not limited to autism).  I do believe parents when they tell their story, though.  

 

Pharmaceuticals can do a lot of good, and they can do a lot of harm, as well.  My own take is that everyone, but fetuses and babies in particular, should use pharmaceuticals cautiously.  There are lots of potentially dangerous things in this world - pharmaceutical usage is one of the things that is often within our control.


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#81 of 97 Old 11-24-2013, 04:50 PM
 
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I wish people wouldn't use that term.

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There are a few--maybe about 10%.  But most have Down Syndrome, other genetic disorders that result in severe mental restriction, or had obvious brain damage that resulted in their being in a slightly-more-than-vegetable existence (most of those are in wheelchairs or worse).

 

I did not read that she called any child a carrot or a cucumber and I see existence (as in that state) , this is really nit-picky- http://pmj.bmj.com/content/75/884/321.full and the term vegetative come from vegetable 

 

Edited to remove wrong link from Alenushka


 

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#82 of 97 Old 11-24-2013, 04:51 PM
 
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#83 of 97 Old 11-24-2013, 05:08 PM
 
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removed! :o


 

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#84 of 97 Old 11-25-2013, 02:00 AM
 
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I did not read that she called any child a carrot or a cucumber and I see existence (as in that state) , this is really nit-picky- http://pmj.bmj.com/content/75/884/321.full and the term vegetative come from vegetable 

 

 

I don't like either of the terms. But I personally find "vegetative" less offensive than "vegetable". The Germans say "Wachkoma" (waking coma). I much prefer that. Might be nitpicking, yes. I'd rather have an autistic child be called autistic than retarded. It's like "retard" coming from "retardation". Don't like either of them, but retard is more derogatory. "Vegetable-like-existence" is a sad thing to say about someone else's child. Parents live and breathe for every reaction, every smile, every second of eye-contact. I know I did. I know more parents of SN kids than of neurotypical children. They all hate that word. 

 

And it even says that in the link you mentioned.

 

Changes of terminology for sick people are a good thing. "Idiocy" used to be an official diagnosis. 

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#85 of 97 Old 11-25-2013, 02:27 AM
 
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I have known two autistic boys personally. Both had trouble breastfeeding early on, even with support and intervention. The mom of three boys, middle being autistic, said she could tell from the get-go that something was off about her autistic child from birth. My nephew is the other autistic boy I know closely. He started off with very poor breastfeeding and ended up taking bottles with many tears from my SIL, and even did not suck the bottles efficiently. I met him as an infant and he was engaging in eye contact and mimicking expressions and all that stuff from the start. 

 

I think sometimes it just happens. Genetic mutations, either random or inherited.


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#86 of 97 Old 11-25-2013, 02:37 AM
 
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I don't like either of the terms. But I personally find "vegetative" less offensive than "vegetable". The Germans say "Wachkoma" (waking coma). I much prefer that. Might be nitpicking, yes. I'd rather have an autistic child be called autistic than retarded. It's like "retard" coming from "retardation". Don't like either of them, but retard is more derogatory. "Vegetable-like-existence" is a sad thing to say about someone else's child. Parents live and breathe for every reaction, every smile, every second of eye-contact. I know I did. I know more parents of SN kids than of neurotypical children. They all hate that word. 

 

And it even says that in the link you mentioned.

 

Changes of terminology for sick people are a good thing. "Idiocy" used to be an official diagnosis. 

 

I work with a lot of neurologically impaired children. The term "persistent vegetative state" is on its way out. I more often see in patient charts the term "neurologically devastated" to describe a patient who is mostly non-responsive, non-communicative, and has non-purposeful movement. An example would be a child who was born with a severe syndrome that did not allow the brain to fully develop, or experienced a severe hypoxic event at birth. I have also seen patients who have have acquired brain injuries due to accidents and acute illness, and even though they also meet the description above, they are often referred to as being in a "comatose state." 

 

I occasionally see "mental retardation" in charts, but more often I see "developmentally delayed" or "severely developmentally delayed" to refer to a child who does have purposeful movement, some social interaction, but is very delayed in motor milestones, speech, and self-care activities. A good example of this patient is a child with Down Syndrome.


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#87 of 97 Old 11-25-2013, 04:42 AM
 
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I work with a lot of neurologically impaired children. The term "persistent vegetative state" is on its way out. I more often see in patient charts the term "neurologically devastated" to describe a patient who is mostly non-responsive, non-communicative, and has non-purposeful movement. An example would be a child who was born with a severe syndrome that did not allow the brain to fully develop, or experienced a severe hypoxic event at birth. I have also seen patients who have have acquired brain injuries due to accidents and acute illness, and even though they also meet the description above, they are often referred to as being in a "comatose state." 

 

I occasionally see "mental retardation" in charts, but more often I see "developmentally delayed" or "severely developmentally delayed" to refer to a child who does have purposeful movement, some social interaction, but is very delayed in motor milestones, speech, and self-care activities. A good example of this patient is a child with Down Syndrome.

I know those with autistic children that object to "delay" of any type, knowing their child is more than delayed and not going to catch up, yearly reviews on progress and they have to deal with how "delayed" they are told their child is, and in the next breath they are told their child is regressing 

 

ARC is slowing changing their meaning but not all over, and they still use the term mental retardation 

 

I hear persistence vegetative (existence/state) and vegetable existence (state, etc) often referred to in end of life care/living wills, directives  

 

In Taxi's quote she was not referring to autistic children but others (the 10% where she vollunteerrs) - I do hear that same terminology vs "neurologically devastated" (since most don't know what that is to mean outside of the medical community) and also "devastated" also does not sit well with many


 

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#88 of 97 Old 11-25-2013, 05:53 AM
 
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I know those with autistic children that object to "delay" of any type, knowing their child is more than delayed and not going to catch up, yearly reviews on progress and they have to deal with how "delayed" they are told their child is, and in the next breath they are told their child is regressing 

 

ARC is slowing changing their meaning but not all over, and they still use the term mental retardation 

 

I hear persistence vegetative (existence/state) and vegetable existence (state, etc) often referred to in end of life care/living wills, directives  

 

In Taxi's quote she was not referring to autistic children but others (the 10% where she vollunteerrs) - I do hear that same terminology vs "neurologically devastated" (since most don't know what that is to mean outside of the medical community) and also "devastated" also does not sit well with many

 

 

Are you really arguing this, serenbat? Really? The right to call a sick or dying child a vegetable? Or call their condition, whatever the cause, "vegetable-like existence"? Vegetable is not the same as delayed. The term delayed can be inaccurate, like you said. Vegetable is heartless and cruel. Not the same thing.

 

And I now really, really wonder why you are defending this terminology. 

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#89 of 97 Old 11-25-2013, 06:07 AM
 
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Are you really arguing this, serenbat? Really? The right to call a sick or dying child a vegetable? Or call their condition, whatever the cause, "vegetable-like existence"? Vegetable is not the same as delayed. The term delayed can be inaccurate, like you said. Vegetable is heartless and cruel. Not the same thing.

 

And I now really, really wonder why you are defending this terminology. 

I have no clue what you choose to read into thing :dizzy-once again, how you jump to assumptions! 

I was not talking about delays with vegetive state of any kind, I spoke of "delays" exactly as I stated - with autistic children I do not, nor do I know anyone in real life that associated "vegetative" what ever, with an autistic child - please read what I wrote

 

 

Quote:

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I know those with autistic children that object to "delay" of any type, knowing their child is more than delayed and not going to catch up, yearly reviews on progress and they have to deal with how "delayed" they are told their child is, and in the next breath they are told their child is regressing -REAL to me, IRL to those I know! This are not bed ridden, coma, etc children, they are autistic (many sever but mobil) FACT

 

ARC is slowing changing their meaning but not all over, and they still use the term mental retardation  you can search or refer to certain areas of the country where this is still in use - FACT

 

I hear persistence vegetative (existence/state) and vegetable existence (state, etc) often referred to in end of life care/living wills, directives (as in the case with many elderly who use directive, living wills, etc - thought most could understand what those where :dizzy)  yup, stilling going on-IRL FACT

 

In Taxi's quote she was not referring to autistic children but others (the 10% where she volunteers  - I do hear that same terminology vs "neurologically devastated" (since most don't know what that is to mean outside of the medical community) and also "devastated" also does not sit well with many -again, IRL most do not say "neurologically devastated" outside of the medical community - FACT again

these are facts, not an argument……..  the words mean two different thing and stated nor implied to mean the same- very simple here


 

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#90 of 97 Old 11-25-2013, 06:15 AM
 
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I know she was not referring to autistic children. I know that delay and vegetative are two different things. That was my point. One term is is, at times, inaccurate, one is heartless. 

 

I was talking about the general usage of the word "vegetable" or "vegetable-like" when referring to a sick or dying child (no matter what the condition is caused by). And by arguing with that, you are defending that usage. WHY?

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