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#1 of 97 Old 10-04-2013, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.medicaldaily.com/acetaminophen-behind-autism-epidemic-otc-meds-given-prevent-fever-after-vaccines-may-be-culprit

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#2 of 97 Old 10-04-2013, 04:37 PM
 
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I am very against Tylenol, for sure, I won't ever even have it in the home. But I don't think it is the whole answer . . .
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#3 of 97 Old 10-04-2013, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Definitely not the only cause. After all, autism was first diagnosed before acetaminophen was ever used. But I wonder how much the autism rate would be reduced if acetaminophen suddenly stopped being used. My kids have never been vaccinated, and they have never been given acetaminophen.

 

Perhaps people who insist on vaccinating their kids would at least be open to avoiding acetaminophen. Education about fever is definitely important. Parents are terrified of fever, when they should instead be terrified about the drugs used to lower it.

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#4 of 97 Old 10-04-2013, 05:13 PM
 
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Doubt it.  

 

One thing I did find interesting is that the article said:

Quote:
 Although Cuba’s per capita income is about eight times lower than that of the U.S., the percentage of its population with autism is also lower — a surprising 298 times lower.

 

I wonder if it really has a lower rate, or if it is a diagnostic/counting difference?

 

Vaccines in Cuba are mandatory, so they have an very high vaccination rate.  

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#5 of 97 Old 10-04-2013, 05:34 PM
 
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Who are these Peds who are advising 5 days of PreTreatment with Tylenol?!?! I thought even giving it before the shots @ all was vaguely controversial & outmoded. I have never met a Dr that recommended it on other than an 'as needed' basis, afterwards.
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#6 of 97 Old 10-05-2013, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I've never heard of the 5 days before either. But it's still very, very common for doctors to recommend acetaminophen before vaccines. But I've only heard the day of, not 5 days prior. Or even 2 days prior.

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#7 of 97 Old 10-07-2013, 06:05 AM
 
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I think paracetamol is overused and dangerous. It has its merits, but in the US based on my observations it's handed out like candy. When I was a child we rarely ever got paracetamol. A fever had to hit 40 degrees Celsius before we were medicated... It was the standard and advised by the pediatrician.

 

In the US at the regular pediatricians we have seen they always handed out an information sheet for each visit which always included to give paracetamol before and after shots. Just as a precaution. Yuck! I can't take paracetamol as my liver is unable to process it quickly, we found out randomly during bloodwork. So I avoid it for the kids. I did give it to them during the flu when the fever hit 40 to alternate with ibuprofen, so they got maybe like 3 doses and I underdose them (e.g. the 2 year old gets a dose for a 6 months old; the 5 year old gets a dose for a 2 year old).

 

Apart from that, it would be interesting to know the Cuban schedule and brands used. In the ex Soviet countries it was mandatory to be vaccinated. But in East Germany, as an infant, I never received more than one vaccine at a time and only if healthy. A little cold and the doctors would say no, come back with a healthy child. We also received tons of vitamin D3 (dekristol) supplements as infants.... (schedule was: bcg at birth, dtp at 9/11/14 months and 6 years, opv at 10/13/15 months and at 4 years and measles at 12 months). They also were watching carefully for reactions and excluded kids who had febrile seizures etc.

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#8 of 97 Old 10-12-2013, 11:19 AM
 
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Acetaminophen usage rates and autism rates do mirror each other   Acetaminophen was rarely used prior to 1980 but replaced aspirin, for pregnant women and children, after aspirin was associated with Reye's syndrome. This is when the autism rates started to increase.  Autism did occur prior to 1980 but it was very rare.

 

Boys get autism 4-5 times more often than girls.  Acetaminophen being a causal factor provides on of the few plausible explanations why. In the mid 1990's, pain management guidelines started suggesting that boys get 5-7 doses of acetaminophen in the vulnerable first days of life with the circumcision procedure. At this time, metabolic systems are not functioning well. Worldwide and US state autism rates highly correlate to their circumcision rates.  Worldwide prenatal acetaminophen usage rates also correlate to the autism rates.  Obviously, correlation is not causation, but this is interesting enough that this should be investigated further.

 

A new study in Nature states "Our findings suggest that chemicals and genetic mutations that impair topoisomerases could commonly contribute to autism spectrum disorder and other neurodevelopmental disorders".  NAPQI the toxic metabolite of acetaminophen is a topoisomerase poison.  Just doubling the dose of acetaminophen can cause it to convert to NAPQI.

 

Caution and more research is warranted!

http://www.ehjournal.net/content/12/1/41

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23995680

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15035644

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#9 of 97 Old 10-12-2013, 12:21 PM
 
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Thx for sharing! I will admit, as a Vax safety parent, that has also extended to the pharmaceutical industry generally, I did not Circ & have been VERY hesitant to give Tylenol. I never have given more than 1/2 the recommended dose, on very rare occasions. I gave it to my oldest slightly more often than 'never' (which is how often I gave it to my youngest).

I've always preferred Ibuprofen, because of Tylenol's rep as a liver damager.

It would be really hard to tease out Tylenol use from Vax b/c more 'mainstream' parents are less likely (IMO) to skip/delay Vax & in the US, more likely to choose Tylenol over infant Motrin. And they are often admin'ed concurrently. I wonder if there could be some synergistic affect also?
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I would not be at all surprised if Tylenol is a major player in autism.  But I do want to remind everyone that mercury poisoning affects males to females at a rate of 4 to 1:  http://abcmt.org/A%20Novel%20Form%20of%20Mecury%20Poisoning.pdf

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#11 of 97 Old 10-23-2013, 09:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nia82 View Post
 

 But in East Germany, as an infant, I never received more than one vaccine at a time and only if healthy. A little cold and the doctors would say no, come back with a healthy child. We also received tons of vitamin D3 (dekristol) supplements as infants.... (schedule was: bcg at birth, dtp at 9/11/14 months and 6 years, opv at 10/13/15 months and at 4 years and measles at 12 months). They also were watching carefully for reactions and excluded kids who had febrile seizures etc.

 

 

 

There also seems to be a genetic component? 

 

One of the boys I work with had the MMR booster at 18 months. He was (according to his mum) perfectly healthy before, but after the booster slowly started regressing and escaping into his own world. Stimming, self-harming, repetitive speech, the lot. She then had another child, also a boy. He did not get vaccinated and the same thing happened to him, just that the one one is WAY more affected, despite never having been vaxxed. The whole family live on GFCF diet, mostly Paleo. No medication apart from homeopathy. 

 

She gave birth again. Twins. Boy and girl. The boy is fine, the girl is severely autistic, too. 

 

Had she only had one kid, she would have blamed the MMR, but three out of four kids autistic, three never vaccinated? 

 

In the school I work in are MANY siblings. Identical autistic twin boys, 9 years old, non-verbal. Older and younger brother, older is more on the Asperger side, younger is severely affected and at the developmental stage of a 12 month old. At 14 years old. 

 

 

It is pretty clear that vaccinations are not the cause, neither is paracetamol. But what IS?

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#12 of 97 Old 11-06-2013, 05:02 AM
 
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A systematic review of studies of sex differences in neurodevelopment related to mercury exposure states "The weight of the evidence on mercury exposure does not support
a clear pattern on gender differences in neurodevelopmental deficits."  (Llop et al. 2012)

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.uml.edu/science/article/pii/S0300483X13001194#

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#13 of 97 Old 11-06-2013, 10:58 AM
 
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There is something besides genetics with that amount of kids being autistic these days. I don't remember autistic kids either. Slow learners? Yes. Down kids? Yes. But not anyone qualified for ASD that I grew up with. And it was a small community, a village. People didn't hide their "non" normal kids as so often suggested what happened in the US. I didn't even meet an autistic child until 2005ish. My mom is a special ed teacher and she extremely rarely had autistic kids until the 2000s. And even then there were maybe 2 to a 15 class of other similarly impaired children. Still non of my friends have autistic kids/relatives. I know of one case of Asperger's in a close-by village and that's that. The life we had growing up was also different: no processed foods, plenty of outside time, less meds (colds without meds, just chamomile tea and snuggles), not much TV, no computers, no cells, no GMOs, and so on. It was a different era. There was heavy pollution in some parts of East Germany but not my area. Still kids had significantly lower allergy and asthma rates than their Western counterparts. There is so much to learn about all those things still. My personal guess it is environmental and when combined with a certain genetic disposition will show. But that's just my opinion.

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#14 of 97 Old 11-06-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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One of the boys I work with had the MMR booster at 18 months. He was (according to his mum) perfectly healthy before, but after the booster slowly started regressing and escaping into his own world. Stimming, self-harming, repetitive speech, the lot. She then had another child, also a boy. He did not get vaccinated and the same thing happened to him, just that the one one is WAY more affected, despite never having been vaxxed. The whole family live on GFCF diet, mostly Paleo. No medication apart from homeopathy. 

 

She gave birth again. Twins. Boy and girl. The boy is fine, the girl is severely autistic, too. 

 

Had she only had one kid, she would have blamed the MMR, but three out of four kids autistic, three never vaccinated? 

 

 

It is pretty clear that vaccinations are not the cause, neither is paracetamol. But what IS?

 

The only thing that is clear from your story is that vaccinations and paracetamol (acetaminophen/Tylenol) are not the cause of autism in every case, and obviously not the cause in never-vaccinated and never medicated kids (assuming the mother was not vaccinated or took Tylenol during pregnancy).

 

Saying that vaccines/Tylenol are not the cause based on your observations, is like saying that smoking obviously does not cause lung cancer, since some smokers don't get lung cancer, and some people who never smoked do get lung cancer.

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Current research supports the idea  that autism is primarily the result of toxic overload, with some sort of genetic susceptibility factor.  Acetaminophen appears to be one of the contributory toxins.  A new, very well done study found that children exposed to long-term use of acetaminophen during pregnancy had substantial adverse developmental outcomes at 3 years of age. These included adverse behavioral, gross motor skill and communication outcomes. This study controlled for familial and genetic factors and other important factors such as fever, infection and other drug use.  This study also looked at ibuprofen and did not find an effect. 

http://scicasts.com/disease-processes/2045-drug-applications/6854-new-study-on-neurodevelopmental-effects-of-prenatal-exposure-to-paracetamol

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#16 of 97 Old 11-06-2013, 02:16 PM
 
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Same here. I had tonsillitis a lot and many of my vaccinations had to be delayed until healthy. I also do not remember any autistic kids in East Germany? We were 600 kids in our Primary and not one was autistic. One could say that it is now better diagnosed, and recognised. BUT I work with autistic kids and they so obviously are autistic. Stimming, non-verbal (half of them). That couldn't have just been overseen or not recognised. 

 

There also seems to be a genetic component? 

 

One of the boys I work with had the MMR booster at 18 months. He was (according to his mum) perfectly healthy before, but after the booster slowly started regressing and escaping into his own world. Stimming, self-harming, repetitive speech, the lot. She then had another child, also a boy. He did not get vaccinated and the same thing happened to him, just that the one one is WAY more affected, despite never having been vaxxed. The whole family live on GFCF diet, mostly Paleo. No medication apart from homeopathy. 

 

She gave birth again. Twins. Boy and girl. The boy is fine, the girl is severely autistic, too. 

 

Had she only had one kid, she would have blamed the MMR, but three out of four kids autistic, three never vaccinated? 

 

In the school I work in are MANY siblings. Identical autistic twin boys, 9 years old, non-verbal. Older and younger brother, older is more on the Asperger side, younger is severely affected and at the developmental stage of a 12 month old. At 14 years old. 

 

But then... there IS a genetic component, but autism didn't used to be that common? No idea bout the cause, it is scary. 

 

It is pretty clear that vaccinations are not the cause, neither is paracetamol. But what IS?

no, it is not pretty clear - it is your observation 

 

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The only thing that is clear from your story is that vaccinations and paracetamol (acetaminophen/Tylenol) are not the cause of autism in every case, and obviously not the cause in never-vaccinated and never medicated kids (assuming the mother was not vaccinated or took Tylenol during pregnancy).

 

Saying that vaccines/Tylenol are not the cause based on your observations, is like saying that smoking obviously does not cause lung cancer, since some smokers don't get lung cancer, and some people who never smoked do get lung cancer.

 

observations are just that - observations, data is still out


 

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Thought this was relevent http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24837462

 

Early days, but a suggestion that autism could be detected at the age of 3 months by looking for subtle signs. They make it very clear they're very subtle and would likely be missed by parents. It would be fantastic if children who are at risk of developing autism could be identified so early and appropriate help be given to them for their development.


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#18 of 97 Old 11-07-2013, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thought this was relevent http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24837462

 

Early days, but a suggestion that autism could be detected at the age of 3 months by looking for subtle signs. They make it very clear they're very subtle and would likely be missed by parents. It would be fantastic if children who are at risk of developing autism could be identified so early and appropriate help be given to them for their development.

 

If autism is caused by genetic susceptibility combined by environmental insults, I see how it might be possible to notice some early differences, due to the genetic susceptibility part. Of course by 3 months most babies have already received several vaccines, and many of them have already been given Tylenol.  This would be an awesome opportunity for such parents to start avoiding any and all environmental insults that they can possibly think of, and that they can possibly avoid. And making sure their infants are getting enough vitamin D, and possibly supplementing with probiotics as well.

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EineMutti, I think you're missing something rather obvious.


It's certainly possible for your friend's oldest son to have reacted to the MMR because of a genetic predisposition, resulting in autism. Let's not forget that he received approximately 25 vaccines PRIOR to receiving the MMR, perhaps even a couple WITH the MMR.  They may have contained thimerosal, as well, so you can't rule out the mercury factor in your friend's case, either.

 

The sister could have ended up with the same genetic predisposition, but autism in her case might have been triggered by something completely different from the MMR.  For all you know, the mother could have had amalgam tooth fillings while pregnant, could have received a thimerosal-preserved flu shot while pregnant, and may have taken a lot of Tylenol as well.  The infant twins might have been exposed to measles, perhaps shed by someone who had just received an MMR, and if there is any kind of genetic predisposition to subclinical measles infection resulting in brain inflammation and/or autism, that could have happened.

 

And let's not forget that many infants are given hep B vaccination the day of birth, WITHOUT their parents' knowledge or consent.  It certainly happened to one of my kids, and nearly happened to another.

 

And there is a study showing that infant boys vaccinated with hep B at birth are 3 times as likely to be diagnosed with autism down the road....

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#20 of 97 Old 11-16-2013, 05:49 AM
 
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That is a good point, Taximom. The kind of autism that seems to appear suddenly and then makes the child regress could be triggered by many factors. One of them might be the vaccine, who really knows. But then, if in those cases it is, it would probably have been triggered by a common virus as well. 

 

My girl's eczema came on very suddenly with the chickenpox. So did her astigmatism. All of a sudden, her eye turned in and she broke out in eczema that took ten years to clear. 

 

Been thinking about the "autism epidemic" a lot recently. It seems to be diagnosed more and more, children are classed "brain damaged" just because there are different. So was Einstein, Tesla and Mozart, they might nowadays be diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, too. Or ASD. Or just classed as "weird". While the severely affected kids I work with are definitely autistic and many are brain damaged (tumours, mitochondrial disease, missing enzymes, PKU, oxygen deprivation at birth, near-drowning or choking accidents, herpes encephalitis, tuberous sclerosis, frontal lobe damage due to brain trauma, FAS) many kids now diagnosed have slight SPD and show some signs of Asperger's which wouldn't have been pathologised decades ago. 

 

I will try and find some literature for that as it is fascinating. 

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#21 of 97 Old 11-16-2013, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That is a good point, Taximom. The kind of autism that seems to appear suddenly and then makes the child regress could be triggered by many factors. One of them might be the vaccine, who really knows. But then, if in those cases it is, it would probably have been triggered by a common virus as well. 

 

 

Why do you think that? Do you think vaccines are nothing except weak viruses? 

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That is a good point, Taximom. The kind of autism that seems to appear suddenly and then makes the child regress could be triggered by many factors. One of them might be the vaccine, who really knows. But then, if in those cases it is, it would probably have been triggered by a common virus as well. 

 

 

Edited:  I'd rather repeat what ma2two said  in reply to this outrageous statement:

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Originally Posted by ma2two View Post
 

 

Why do you think that? Do you think vaccines are nothing except weak viruses? 

 

 

Really, excellent question.

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Why do you think that? Do you think vaccines are nothing except weak viruses? 


That is my impression too- I can't figure it out either.

 

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I shouldn't speak for EineMutte - but if you're claiming the weakened virus in a vaccine can cause an autoimmunne respose which causes or triggers autism (which I do not believe there is any proof for I should say, I know others do), why would you not think the full strength virus causing an illness would cause a similar reponse? 

 

Is it just about the method of administration? The fact that the weakened virus bacteria parts are injected in a solution containing preservatives, trace amounts of the substances used to grow and/or weaken the virus and in some cases adjuvants to stimulate immune response? If the weakened virus could be administered orally (or nasaly like the flumist) does it concern you less? 

 

Is this why we see parents lumping VItamin K shots in with vaccinations in their minds? It's about injecting the stuff mostly, not so much the exposure to the weakened virus?


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Nasal vaccines do concern me WAY less. I do think there is an immune response to all the components of the vaccine, not just the intended parts. In Paul Offit's course he talked pretty extensively about the real and documented history of demyelination (sp) that occurred when myelin was included in vaccines, for example.

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I shouldn't speak for EineMutte - but if you're claiming the weakened virus in a vaccine can cause an autoimmunne respose which causes or triggers autism (which I do not believe there is any proof for I should say, I know others do), why would you not think the full strength virus causing an illness would cause a similar reponse? 

 

Is it just about the method of administration? The fact that the weakened virus bacteria parts are injected in a solution containing preservatives, trace amounts of the substances used to grow and/or weaken the virus and in some cases adjuvants to stimulate immune response? If the weakened virus could be administered orally (or nasaly like the flumist) does it concern you less? 

 

Is this why we see parents lumping VItamin K shots in with vaccinations in their minds? It's about injecting the stuff mostly, not so much the exposure to the weakened virus?

 

I don't know why you would consider 25 micrograms of mercury or 250 micrograms of aluminum to be trace amounts, especially when
1)   Multiple shots are given at once, so babies might be given up to 175 micrograms at once,

2) infants might be given both mercury-containing and aluminum-containing shots at the same time, which could seriously increase the toxicity

3) there could be a cumulative effect, particularly in individuals who are unable to properly excrete heavy metals from their bodies (for example, individuals with vitamin D deficiency) or in individuals who have intestinal malabsorption problems (people with celiac, IBS, etc).

I find this pdf to be very informative and helpful:  http://thinktwice.com/aluminum.pdf

 

"For example, in 1997 the New England Journal of Medicine published data showing that premature babies injected with aluminum build up toxic levels in the blood, bones and brain, and that aluminum toxicity can lead to neurological damage, including mental handicaps at 18 months of age." 

(Bishop, NJ., et al. “Aluminum neurotoxicity in preterm infants receiving intravenous-feeding solutions.” New England Journal of

Medicine 1997;336(22):1557-62.)

 

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is also aware that aluminum is dangerous. In a critical FDA document on drug evaluation, the following statement is made: “Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates, who receive [injections] of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5mcg per kilogram of body weight per day, accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates.”  

(Rappaport, B. “Document NDA 19-626/S-019.” FDA: Office of Drug Evaluation II, Center for Drug Evaluation and Research (February

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#27 of 97 Old 11-19-2013, 02:19 PM
 
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I don't know why you would consider 25 micrograms of mercury or 250 micrograms of aluminum to be trace amounts, especially when
1)   Multiple shots are given at once, so babies might be given up to 175 micrograms at once,

2) infants might be given both mercury-containing and aluminum-containing shots at the same time, which could seriously increase the toxicity

3) there could be a cumulative effect, particularly in individuals who are unable to properly excrete heavy metals from their bodies (for example, individuals with vitamin D deficiency) or in individuals who have intestinal malabsorption problems (people with celiac, IBS, etc).

I find this pdf to be very informative and helpful:  http://thinktwice.com/aluminum.pdf

 

"For example, in 1997 the New England Journal of Medicine published data showing that premature babies injected with aluminum build up toxic levels in the blood, bones and brain, and that aluminum toxicity can lead to neurological damage, including mental handicaps at 18 months of age." 

(Bishop, NJ., et al. “Aluminum neurotoxicity in preterm infants receiving intravenous-feeding solutions.” New England Journal of

Medicine 1997;336(22):1557-62.)

 

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is also aware that aluminum is dangerous. In a critical FDA document on drug evaluation, the following statement is made: “Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates, who receive [injections] of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5mcg per kilogram of body weight per day, accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates.”  

(Rappaport, B. “Document NDA 19-626/S-019.” FDA: Office of Drug Evaluation II, Center for Drug Evaluation and Research (February

 

*anything* is dangerous in high enough dosages.  Water can kill you. 

 

"I don't know why you would consider 25 micrograms of mercury or 250 micrograms of aluminum to be trace amounts" 

 

They are trace amounts. Look at this graph. 

 

 

That tiny spec is 1,000 bigger than the amount of aluminum in a vaccine.  That is a *trace* amount. 


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#28 of 97 Old 11-19-2013, 04:11 PM
 
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"For example, in 1997 the New England Journal of Medicine published data showing that premature babies injected with aluminum build up toxic levels in the blood, bones and brain, and that aluminum toxicity can lead to neurological damage, including mental handicaps at 18 months of age." 

(Bishop, NJ., et al. “Aluminum neurotoxicity in preterm infants receiving intravenous-feeding solutions.” New England Journal of

Medicine 1997;336(22):1557-62.)

 

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is also aware that aluminum is dangerous. In a critical FDA document on drug evaluation, the following statement is made: “Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates, who receive [injections] of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5mcg per kilogram of body weight per day, accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates.”  

(Rappaport, B. “Document NDA 19-626/S-019.” FDA: Office of Drug Evaluation II, Center for Drug Evaluation and Research (February

odd that a pro-vaccer (teacozy) doesn't trust the info from the New England Journal of Medicine or The FDA but  FB meme is more accurate :laugh 


 

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Want to join? Just ask me!

 

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Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

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#29 of 97 Old 11-19-2013, 04:31 PM
 
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odd that a pro-vaccer (teacozy) doesn't trust the info from the New England Journal of Medicine or The FDA but  FB meme is more accurate :laugh 

 

I don't see that she's not trusting info from the NEJM.  She's just not comparing apples and oranges the way you are.

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Comparing Water to Mercury & Aluminum is pretty much comparing apples to oranges. I don't like to pretend that because these ingredients are in (some) current vaccine formulations, that they are essential to the concept (they aren't) or above scrutiny (again, nope).

I think a middle path is usually the most reasonable. I read a blog yesterday where a blogger I occasionally like defies her OB & Pharmacist to get a Flu Shot WITH Thimerosal while pregnant (and not in her 3rd trimester). Basically because she can't be bothered to come back another day or go to a different pharmacy.

Way to put your money where your mouth is, I *guess* but since preservative free flu shots are available, why test out your faith in Ethylmercury on a fetus?
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