vaccine research: financial conflict of interest is the norm, not the exception - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 38 Old 10-14-2013, 10:38 AM
 
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Funny SBM didn't mention this placebo study which showed that the having the flu vaccine resulted in 5 and a half times more respiratory infections than the unvaccinated.

 

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/13/cid.cis307

 

 

 

This study disputes that study "Influenza Vaccination Is Not Associated With Detection of Noninfluenza Respiratory Viruses in Seasonal Studies of Influenza Vaccine Effectiveness"  http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/6/789.abstract

 

This other study (that has many of the same authors of the study you just posted) shows that the flu vaccine was effective in children http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/55/5/695.abstract


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#32 of 38 Old 10-14-2013, 10:59 AM
 
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Are we going to play my study is better than your study, teacozy? For those interested the placebo study I post showed this, pretty clear isn't it:

 


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#33 of 38 Old 10-14-2013, 11:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

"Shall we have a meme-off? " 

I actually think a meme off thread would be a lot of fun.  Maybe I'm the only one....

 

No.  It could be fun.  :)

 

"Oh, well.  Did you rub your hands in glee at the mild goof?  Sometimes I think posters just look for weaknesses in wording rather than focusing on the big topic.  Classic diversion.  "

 

HILARIOUSLY ironic statement coming from you.  I was attacked on the "vast majority" statement (in more than one thread, I might add).  Even when I said I could easily change it to "many many many studies" and the point would still stand people still harped on that statement.  Funny.  The original point was that many many many studies that show the safety and efficacy of vaccines are done by people without conflicts of interest or ties to big pharma.  So the logic that since big pharma can do unethical things= all studies on vaccines are garbage is ridiculous. 

 

You refused to back up or concede the "vast majority" thing.  You did not change your wording, even when given the opportunity, as far as I know.  Numerous studies were posted discussing that the majority had industry funding - and still, no concession, no backing up of your POV.  I missed the change to "many, many" studies - which I would accept (although we might get bogged down in defining "many") as "many" is a subjective word.  I suggest we move on.

 

In any event, I did not feel  (in this case) that I was hyperfocusing on wording.  Knowing how many studies are funded by  vaccine industries is very important to me, as it is crucial to understand conflicts of interest and their ramifications in vaccine decisions.  I might have been amiss to comment on Sassyfire's wording, and you focusing on it (maybe it is important to you and you are not just focusing on hole-picking) Maybe she really did mean  there are were no trials, ever, that compared vaccines to a  placebo.  I think she misspoke, but we shall see. 

 

"In any event, the major point is there are very, very, very few studies that compare unvaxxed children to vaxxed children in a double blind, placebo controlled study." 

 

Do you mean completely unvaccinated children? Then, of course there isn't.   Exactly.

 

 


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#34 of 38 Old 10-14-2013, 11:07 AM
 
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Are we going to play my study is better than your study, teacozy? For those interested the placebo study I post showed this, pretty clear isn't it:

 

If we are playing study comparisons over influenza, I predict non-vaxxers for the win.  

 

The influenza vaccine is one lousy, over-hyped vax.  

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#35 of 38 Old 10-14-2013, 11:07 AM
 
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Are we going to play my study is better than your study, teacozy? For those interested the placebo study I post showed this, pretty clear isn't it:

 

 

The study you posted had 115 kids in it.  Mine had almost 4,000 people total.  Yeah....


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#36 of 38 Old 10-14-2013, 11:09 AM
 
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Are we going to play my study is better than your study, teacozy?

 

Well, if we're going to, I'd say a study with a sample size of 3748 is "better" than one with a sample size of 115.

 

Oops, crossposted.  Oh well.  Great minds think alike.


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#37 of 38 Old 10-14-2013, 11:16 AM
 
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"

I actually think a meme off thread would be a lot of fun.  Maybe I'm the only one....

 

No.  It could be fun.  :)

 

Dooo it! :D

 

I did say I could easily change the wording to "many many" and even used "many many" in following posts.  I can't remember if I actually went back and edited the post. Moving on...

 

"Do you mean completely unvaccinated children? Then, of course there isn't.   Exactly."   Would you put your kids in a double blind vaccine study? Somehow I seriously doubt it. We went though this ad nauseum in the other thread I linked under the meme. 


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#38 of 38 Old 10-14-2013, 11:18 AM
 
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Well I'm not sure what your're trying to say with your fist link when the first graph associated shows that 89 people or 17.7% of the vaccine group died by the conclusion of the study, while 80 people or 15.9% of the placebo group died.  And why they couldn't evenly split the groups 503/503 but instead gave one extra to the placebo group, well whatever.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2834887/figure/fig1/

 

Because that's what I'm interested in - correlations between rate of death, disease, and other episodes which may not include the disease for which they are vaccinating.  You know, all those things that are vehemently denied as "vaccine" reactions because no one wants to go down that path of research.  Since they only focused the study on "pneumonia" in various forms, there is no information regarding what those other deaths were, and how/when they occurred following vaccination/placebo.  Death following a placebo would be unrelated, but a heart attack following vaccine - how do you conclusively state that it was NOT due to the vaccine?

 

"Another limitation of this study was that antibody responses to vaccination were not measured and correlated with clinical outcomes."  So there was no measure of antibody response, nor for that matter did they test any of these patients prior to the study to determine an pre-existing antibodies which could lend to different outcomes.  Seems like a pretty important factor that was skipped over.  Were this study in opposition of the vaccine, I'm sure you'd be all over that fact.

 

Another point here, The first definition of efficacy according to Merriam-Webster is "the power to produce a desired result or effect".  That says a lot right there - desired.  You go into a study looking for what you *hope* will be a result and you set out to achieve/produce that result. In terms of efficacy as it relates to the actual vaccine, it's much different than efficacy of a study yet we take these study results to mean that that vaccine itself is effective when in fact very specific information was used to draw a conclusion (an opinion really since many people draw different conclusions from the same grouping of information all the time) and that is all.

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