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#1 of 17 Old 10-29-2013, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We are experiencing a measles outbreak in this developed area of the world. While I understand the fear and don't judge ANY parental decision to vaccinate or not vaccinate, I am concerned about the hundreds of babies 6 months to a year getting vaccinated with their first MMR. They will then get their second at 12 months and a third at 2 years.
It just all seems a little crazy.
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#2 of 17 Old 10-29-2013, 10:05 PM
 
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I do not see anything crazy in protecting my child and others around him. Modern vaccines have fewer antigens. So, even thought a child getting more shots than in 1960's, the burden is less.  Measles is not a benign disease.

 

"About 30% of measles cases develop one or more complications, including

  • Pneumonia, which is the complication that is most often the cause of death in young children.
  • Ear infections occur in about 1 in 10 measles cases and permanent loss of hearing can result.
  • Diarrhea is reported in about 8% of cases.

These complications are more common among children under 5 years of age and adults over 20 years old.

Even in previously healthy children, measles can be a serious illness requiring hospitalization. As many as 1 out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, and about 1 child in every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis. (This is an inflammation of the brain that can lead to convulsions, and can leave the child deaf or mentally retarded.) For every 1,000 children who get measles, 1 or 2 will die from it. Measles also can make a pregnant woman have a miscarriage, give birth prematurely, or have a low-birth-weight baby."http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

 

 

 

"

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#3 of 17 Old 10-29-2013, 10:28 PM
 
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I'm not understanding your post, OP. Are you saying that delaying the shot is a bad idea? Not following...

Also, can you define "outbreak"? As in, what are the number of cases?

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#4 of 17 Old 10-29-2013, 11:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry for the lack of direction in my post. Thinking out loud. Cochrane review of almost 17 million children in studies dating up to 2011 concluded safety design and outcomes for MMR vaccine are "largely inadequate". I understand negative outcomes from disease probably outweigh serious adverse effects of the vaccine but its not a risk-free shot and we evidently don't know exactly how risky it is.

I know they are doing their best (health system and parents) to keep the most vulnerable from getting sick but it seems risky to give MMR to such young babies ( vaccinating from 6-12 months). Not to mention a new hypothesis coming out of the Quebec measles outbreak that suggests the younger kids are vaccinated with MMR the lower their subsequent immunity as they get older ( despite boosters).

The health unit here has a policy that even if a baby is vaccinated with MMR ( full dose) a day before they turn 1 - they will need their second shot the next day again. And then again at 2 years. That is crazy.

I would be scared if I had a small baby right now. Stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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#5 of 17 Old 10-30-2013, 07:54 AM
 
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No one  thinks that vaccines are 100%.  But given risks and benefits I go with vaccine. I am not  between a rock and hard place.  I am between a hard place and a tiny pebble.  I read many studies and I talked to immunologists at the world class university. We know enough to know that the measles itself is more dangerous than vaccine.

 

Vaccines do not make immune system weaker but quiet an opposite. Newer studies show some amazing benefits

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24027-booster-shots-the-accidental-advantages-of-vaccines.html#.UnEcMRCMISZ

 

I work with thousands of people. I know only one who had a really bad reactions to a vaccine. Myself. It was discovered that I am allergic to a preservative. I get it preservative free vaccines.

 

 

Can you post a link to that Quebec study? It is not coming up in my search.

 

Delaying vaccinations actually increases rate of side effects. This is really fascinating.

 

 

http://shotofprevention.com/2013/10/15/new-evidence-of-risk-from-delaying-vaccines/

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#6 of 17 Old 10-30-2013, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Those are really interesting articles. I like articles that make me feel better about my choice to vaccinate smile.gif ( except that Paul Offits name is main reference in the delayed vaccination and he has a lot of controversy surrounding him. Not sure I can trust anything he says related to vaccines) I also feel I delayed the mmr shot a little too late with my 9 yr old due to arthritis risk associated with older kids

What I feel can't be discounted is the issue that we don't have the safety data that we need to make an informed decision re: the shot. You may not have seen any short term effects but what about long term? The cochrane review is the gold standard of the scientific community and if they say that safety design and outcomes for the mmr vaccine are "largely inadequate" I would be concerned about vaccinating a baby 3 times with it in their first two years of life.
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#7 of 17 Old 10-30-2013, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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And not a study re: Quebec outbreak. Just hypothesis. http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/4134150
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#8 of 17 Old 10-30-2013, 07:47 PM
 
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I would be concerned about a child getting 3 MMR shots.  MMR is one of the more reactive vaccines, and has a fairly significant febrile seizure rate.

 

I have also seen the data out of Quebec, and yes, it does seem that those vaccinated early might have less immunity.

 

I have seen the study (or article) on how early vaccination leads to less febrile seizures.  it sounds nice, until you realize that those fevers are signs the body is mounting a good immune response to the vaccines, so younger kids might not be as prone to fevers (and thus febrile seizures) as they are not mounting as good a response.

 

If I were doing MMR at all, I would do it between 3-9, and I would check titres after one shot.  A second is often not needed.  If I did not want to wait until 3, I would do it after 15 months and check tires.

 

A little OT, but yes, I think vaccine policy that is over the top pushes a small percentage of the people away or on a road to questioning things.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#9 of 17 Old 10-30-2013, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I would be concerned about a child getting 3 MMR shots.  MMR is one of the more reactive vaccines, and has a fairly significant febrile seizure rate.

I have also seen the data out of Quebec, and yes, it does seem that those vaccinated early might have less immunity.

I have seen the study (or article) on how early vaccination leads to less febrile seizures.  it sounds nice, until you realize that those fevers are signs the body is mounting a good immune response to the vaccines, so younger kids might not be as prone to fevers (and thus febrile seizures) as they are not mounting as good a response.

If I were doing MMR at all, I would do it between 3-9, and I would check titres after one shot.  A second is often not needed.  If I did not want to wait until 3, I would do it after 15 months and check tires.

A little OT, but yes, I think vaccine policy that is over the top pushes a small percentage of the people away or on a road to questioning things.  

I completely agree. It's stupid policy like this- really two shots in 24 hrs? - That makes people question the rest of it.
I appreciate you mentioning the titres after one shot- we are doing this as well. Curious do you worry about mumps immunity? Most likely the measles portion has been effective but mumps isn't as high after one shot.
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#10 of 17 Old 11-01-2013, 09:02 PM
 
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If you are worried about effect of the dead or weakened microorganisms in vaccine, what do you think the full strength disease agent will do to your child immune system and other organs?

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#11 of 17 Old 11-02-2013, 01:31 AM
 
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Could someone post the link to the Cochrane review on MMR?

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#12 of 17 Old 11-02-2013, 05:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alenushka View Post
 

If you are worried about effect of the dead or weakened microorganisms in vaccine, what do you think the full strength disease agent will do to your child immune system and other organs?

Maybe she does not think her kids will get measles.  I am not sure where she lives, but the average number of measles cases in the USA is around 60 a year.  The arguement that the rate is low because of vaccines does not change the fact her child (depending on where she lives) might be extremely unlikely to get the disease.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#13 of 17 Old 11-02-2013, 05:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Could someone post the link to the Cochrane review on MMR?

http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD004407/using-the-combined-vaccine-for-protection-of-children-against-measles-mumps-and-rubella


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#14 of 17 Old 11-02-2013, 01:03 PM
 
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Kathymuggle - thanks.

Dandilionkid - I thought I remembered right. Cochrane didn't say the safety of MMR was inadequate, only that many of the studies of safety are inadequate. There's a huge difference in those statements. Thanks to km people can easily read the actual conclusions for themselves. Personally I find them quite reassuring, even given the calls for more studies.

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#15 of 17 Old 11-03-2013, 03:24 AM
 
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Let's not forget about SSPE either. 4-18  per 100 000 measles infections, which is still  much higher than fatal side effects from vaccinations. SSPE is always deadly. My friend's boy died from it this year, he has been in a coma for nine years after onset of symptoms (he got infected from an unvaxxed 10-year-old at his peds office).  

 

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

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#16 of 17 Old 11-03-2013, 06:01 AM
 
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Let's not forget about SSPE either. 4-18  per 100 000 measles infections, which is still  much higher than fatal side effects from vaccinations. SSPE is always deadly. My friend's boy died from it this year, he has been in a coma for nine years after onset of symptoms (he got infected from an unvaxxed 10-year-old at his peds office). Sleep tight, Micha. 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.html

I went to the link, and this is what it had to say:

 

 Analysis of data from an outbreak of measles in the United States during 1989-1991 suggests a rate of 4-11 cases of SSPE per 100,000 cases of measles. A risk factor for developing this disease is measles infection at an early age. Studies in the United Kingdom indicate that 18 out of every 100,000 people who get measles when they are less than a year old will develop SSPE. This is compared to 1.1 per 100,000 in those infected after 5 years of age. 

 

First off the line in blue is odd.  It might just be sloppy wording (if it confirms what other data says, then it is probably valid) - but still.  According to the pink book, there weren't even 100 000 cases of measle in  1989-1991.  There were about 55 000 cases in those 3 years.  I am not sure you can get firm rates from such a low number - it might be an outlier.  

 

I found the bolded interesting - SSPE has a higher risk in those under 1, and is quite low in those over one.  

 

Sorry for your loss :(


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#17 of 17 Old 11-03-2013, 11:26 AM
 
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Yeah, that is odd. 

 

I think he was in the German news. I didn't know them that well, just from the neuro-rehab and a special needs parenting board. They have suffered a lot, I don't know how they do it. 

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