I'm pro vaccine and even I think this is awful - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 19 Old 11-08-2013, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I guess I don't even know what the debate is because I can't see anyone thinking this is OK but just thought I would share this story.  A little boy went to the hospital because he hurt himself learning how to walk and apparently a hospital staff member left a handwritten note in his room classifying him a loser for not vaccinating. A 9 month old baby! At any age it would be wrong, but classifying a 9 month old baby as a loser is pretty bad. 

 

http://www.wistv.com/story/23885270/hospital-staff-member-classifies-child-as-loser-for-lack-of-immunizations

 

"COLUMBIA, SC (WIS) -

Palmetto Health has taken swift action against a staff member who left a note in a child's room classifying him as a "loser" because he was not vaccinated. 

According to the 9-month-old's father, Trevor Smart, the unidentified staff member left the handwritten note on a table inside the boy's room in the emergency room at Palmetto Health Children's Hospital Monday evening." 

 


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#2 of 19 Old 11-08-2013, 08:59 AM
 
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I hope that nurse is fired. But obviously the "loser" was meant to refer to the parents. I think the debate could be the extent that certain medical professionals such as Paul Offit, and the media that constantly quote him, contribute to such harsh judgements of non-vaccinating parents.

 

Also, I think that until this type of intolerant nonsense stops being the norm (the note was unusual, but the attitude behind it is not), non-vaccinating or delayed vaccinating parents should protect their children in ER's by saying they are "up to date." It is dangerous for medical professionals to be distracted from the medical emergency by their obsession with vaccines.

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#3 of 19 Old 11-08-2013, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I hope that nurse is fired. But obviously the "loser" was meant to refer to the parents. I think the debate could be the extent that certain medical professionals such as Paul Offit, and the media that constantly quote him, contribute to such harsh judgements of non-vaccinating parents.

 

 

 

The note was obviously for the parents, but the article makes it pretty clear she was referring to the child as a loser, not the parents. 

 

As far as Offit goes, he *is* an expert in the area of vaccines and I think hearing the opinion of an expert should be persuaded, not dissuaded. Obviously they should remain professional at all times and not call people "losers" to get their point across. 


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#4 of 19 Old 11-08-2013, 09:28 AM
 
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I know the article says that, but common sense says she was referring to the parents (or one of the parents). Unless the nurse admitted she was referring to the baby, and there was no indication in the article or the video that she did. The nurse should be fired whether she was referring to the parents or the baby. And she should get psychiatric treatment if she was referring to the baby.

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#5 of 19 Old 11-08-2013, 02:22 PM
 
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Being rude is never OK.

I don't think hiding medical facts from a doctor is a good idea.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#6 of 19 Old 11-08-2013, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Being rude is never OK.

I don't think hiding medical facts from a doctor is a good idea.

 

I agree on both points.  You shouldn't lie about your child's vaccine status to doctors, especially in an emergency situation. 


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#7 of 19 Old 11-08-2013, 09:44 PM
 
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You shouldn't lie about your child's vaccine status to doctors, especially in an emergency situation. 

 

An emergency situation is not the best time to be arguing about vaccines. It takes the focus off the emergency.

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#8 of 19 Old 11-09-2013, 06:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
Being rude is never OK.

I don't think hiding medical facts from a doctor is a good idea.

 

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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
I agree on both points.  You shouldn't lie about your child's vaccine status to doctors, especially in an emergency situation. 

I think that if you've never been in the position to feel scared/nervous/uneasy/etc. about what the reaction will be from a medpro to the information that your child has not had invasive questionable medical interventions, it's easy to say what someone else should or should not do.  Much like if you've never had no food & no way to get any, can you tell someone else who is in that situation that they shouldn't steal food?  Those of us in this position DO have to worry about what the consequences, both short & long term, will be.  Harassment? Bullying? Passive aggressive behavior (eye rolling, etc.)? Education? Arm twisting? A report to CPS?  How many who choose the conventional, standard CDC/state dictated route have to worry about this?

 

This is just one instance that we are hearing about.  How many more happen?  How many parents really want their child's lack of vaccination status broadcast to the world & would share such a thing on a news station?

 

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An emergency situation is not the best time to be arguing about vaccines. It takes the focus off the emergency.

I agree w/ this.  I think, depending on the emergency & many other factors, a parent has to decide what is best at the time.  Blanket statements don't help since every situation is different.

 

Sus

 

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#9 of 19 Old 11-09-2013, 07:07 AM
 
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Medical staff are humans too and say judgemental stuff to each other all the time and to patients sometimes. Leaving it on a note the parents will see after she's left is a hideous mix of bullying and cowardice, though.

In our state, vaccine records are instantly accessible to all healthcare facility and schools, so it is a given that a first impression will be made based on your child's status, much as your age, race, clothing, speech, occupation, area code, insurance type, etc affect how you are viewed and treated.

After a friend had her daughter's trauma treatment in the ER delayed while she was grilled about her shot status (and the injuries were obviously not a possible vaccine-related illness), I state that our schedules are selective and delayed at our doctor's advice rather than take an argumentative stance in a time-sensitive situation.
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#10 of 19 Old 11-09-2013, 07:54 AM
 
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In our state, vaccine records are instantly accessible to all healthcare facility and schools, 

After a friend had her daughter's trauma treatment in the ER delayed while she was grilled about her shot status (and the injuries were obviously not a possible vaccine-related illness), I state that our schedules are selective and delayed at our doctor's advice rather than take an argumentative stance in a time-sensitive situation.

 

Most states allow parents to opt out of vaccine registries, if they have one.

 

That's terrible what happened to your friend and her daughter. Unfortunately, I don't think that kind of experience is rare.

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#11 of 19 Old 11-10-2013, 06:58 AM
 
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I agree on both points.  You shouldn't lie about your child's vaccine status to doctors, especially in an emergency situation. 

But parents are starting to report that they are being threatened in the ER with social services/removal of their children, for not being "caught up" on vaccines.

And, as you have pointed our with the OP, they are also being subjected to bullying.
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#12 of 19 Old 11-10-2013, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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But parents are starting to report that they are being threatened in the ER with social services/removal of their children, for not being "caught up" on vaccines.

And, as you have pointed our with the OP, they are also being subjected to bullying.

 

Well they may be threatened with it (I've never heard of it ever happening and I do have friends and acquaintances that are NV) but you can't take a child away from their parents just for not vaccinating.  Hospital staff are trained to look for certain "warning signs" that a child may be neglected and some of those include not vaccinating.  That is not to say that most parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids are bad parents (quite the opposite from my experience, they tend to feed their children very healthy diets and give them lots of exercise etc)  but parents that are genuinely neglectful are probably not going to take their kids to the doctor to get vaccinated on time, or to the dentists etc so it can be a red flag if that is the only information they know. 

 

I still don't think it's a good idea to lie to medical staff about your child's vaccine status.  If you take your child to the ER for a sprained ankle from playing basketball it's probably not as big of a deal but if you are taking a child in for high fever, trouble breathing, a bad rash etc it becomes a lot more important. 


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#13 of 19 Old 11-10-2013, 01:39 PM
 
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Well they may be threatened with it (I've never heard of it ever happening and I do have friends and acquaintances that are NV) but you can't take a child away from their parents just for not vaccinating.  Hospital staff are trained to look for certain "warning signs" that a child may be neglected and some of those include not vaccinating.  That is not to say that most parents who choose not to vaccinate their kids are bad parents (quite the opposite from my experience, they tend to feed their children very healthy diets and give them lots of exercise etc)  but parents that are genuinely neglectful are probably not going to take their kids to the doctor to get vaccinated on time, or to the dentists etc so it can be a red flag if that is the only information they know. 

 

I still don't think it's a good idea to lie to medical staff about your child's vaccine status.  If you take your child to the ER for a sprained ankle from playing basketball it's probably not as big of a deal but if you are taking a child in for high fever, trouble breathing, a bad rash etc it becomes a lot more important. 

You don't remember this?

 

It's been posted several times - YES, you can have your child take away for not vaccinating (as in in the hospitable) - 

 

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/03/williamstown_couple_sues_penn.html

 

 

 

this story (the thread) IMO is typical of what so many on here have reported, harassment is getting to be the norm, not the rare exception

 

when (even on here) memes are posted from FB pages that call for parents to be jailed, fined and called all sorts of names 

when you have "professionals" as - ma2two pointed out, publicly call for exemptions to be restricted 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ma2two View Post
 

I hope that nurse is fired. But obviously the "loser" was meant to refer to the parents. I think the debate could be the extent that certain medical professionals such as Paul Offit, and the media that constantly quote him, contribute to such harsh judgements of non-vaccinating parents.

 

Also, I think that until this type of intolerant nonsense stops being the norm (the note was unusual, but the attitude behind it is not), non-vaccinating or delayed vaccinating parents should protect their children in ER's by saying they are "up to date." It is dangerous for medical professionals to be distracted from the medical emergency by their obsession with vaccines.

 

when medical organizations call for dropping parents from practices 

 

what do you expect? 

 

seems one side in this issues is doing things the other side is not - this just seems the new norm, medical professionals doing things in all ways as they seem fit

 

in this case I highly doubt the person who wrote this notes gets more than a note of a personnel file - surely won't be fired and is mostly likely being praised by their peers


 

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#14 of 19 Old 11-10-2013, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You don't remember this?

 

It's been posted several times - YES, you can have your child take away for not vaccinating (as in in the hospitable) - 

 

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/03/williamstown_couple_sues_penn.html

 

 

 

this story (the thread) IMO is typical of what so many on here have reported, harassment is getting to be the norm, not the rare exception

 

when (even on here) memes are posted from FB pages that call for parents to be jailed, fined and called all sorts of names 

when you have "professionals" as - ma2two pointed out, publicly call for exemptions to be restricted 

when medical organizations call for dropping parents from practices 

 

what do you expect? 

 

seems one side in this issues is doing things the other side is not - this just seems the new norm, medical professionals doing things in all ways as they seem fit

 

 

 

The problem with that link is that we are only hearing one side of the story.  The hospital disputes a lot of the claims that the parents were making. So there really is no way to tell what actually happened.  In any case, the parents got their baby back the next morning.  Also worth noting is that, generally, if it makes the news that means it is a rare occurrence.  Legally, you can't take a child away from otherwise good parents just for not vaccinating.  


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#15 of 19 Old 11-10-2013, 04:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

The problem with that link is that we are only hearing one side of the story.  The hospital disputes a lot of the claims that the parents were making. So there really is no way to tell what actually happened.  In any case, the parents got their baby back the next morning.  Also worth noting is that, generally, if it makes the news that means it is a rare occurrence.  Legally, you can't take a child away from otherwise good parents just for not vaccinating.  

 

 

no lawyer would let a hospitable that is being sued "talk" and it's not just the hospitable being sued here

 

IF one looks more into this (and several have) one would see that the hospitable and the social worker were both denied when they asked to have it dismissed - it is preceding, so I guess a judge saw something worth looking into regarding this - http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/2012/201212100.asp

http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/2012/order_denying_motion_to_dismiss.pdf

 

 “[t]he Amended Complaint thus establishes that the H[ershey] M[edical] C[enter] defendants knowingly set into motion and participated in a chain of events intending that a constitutional violation, namely the improper removal of [Annie] from her parents’ custody, would occur.”

 

all over hep b

 

and IF there is a settlement, (as has happened when cases are against a hospitable ) there usually is a gag order as well


 

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#16 of 19 Old 11-11-2013, 05:50 AM
 
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It is awful.  It is a very polarised issue.  In a way I think our constant bickering plays into this -and to whose benefit?  We, posters who post regularly, are frequently guilty of creating a climate where this sort of unaccaptable behaviour happens (not that I am excusing the nurse in any way - she should face disciplanary action of some kind).


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#17 of 19 Old 11-11-2013, 06:38 AM
 
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It is awful.  It is a very polarised issue.  In a way I think our constant bickering plays into this -and to whose benefit?  We, posters who post regularly, are frequently guilty of creating a climate where this sort of unaccaptable behaviour happens (not that I am excusing the nurse in any way - she should face disciplanary action of some kind).

I disagree here, the opposite is to keep your mouth shut, sit back and just take it, many have done that for years to this point.

 

Seeing that those who oppose vaccines have a voice I feel is important and it does come out in forms such as this, and frankly up against the $$$$ and the power (just look at who's elections big phara is funding) this bickering is a drop in the bucket -IMO

 

I have seen no evidence that not opening up (what ever you want to call it) about NOT vaccinating has helped those who don't - quite the opposite.

 

there is a BIG difference (again IMO) between disciplinary actions and being fired, a note on a file really won't matter to a hill of beans in the long run for this person and I highly doubt they will have trouble ever finding a job if they are in the medical community- the medical community does support / push vaccines - they might not  like how the person went about it, doesn't change the real meaning of the message - berate the choices parents make and do what you can to belittle them into vaccinating 

 

if you read the comments on the news reports about this, the support is not for the family, quite the opposite! 


 

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#18 of 19 Old 11-11-2013, 07:04 AM
 
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I disagree here, the opposite is to keep your mouth shut, sit back and just take it, many have done that for years to this point.

 

I don't think sitting back and taking it is the answer.  I am just not sure what is.  Does our infighting help or hurt?  I think getting very clear on goals and expectations is the key, and focusing on that.  


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#19 of 19 Old 11-11-2013, 08:11 AM
 
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I don't think sitting back and taking it is the answer.  I am just not sure what is.  Does our infighting help or hurt?  I think getting very clear on goals and expectations is the key, and focusing on that.  

If you look at history on other subjects where the minority was (insert word here - picked on, oppressed, etc) and the minority becomes vocal, it usually helps the minority point of view.

 

I don't think the PRO is doing themselves many favors here (as opposed to the anti side) - the PRO side is rallying their base, (again look to other topics in history where this is done) -this is in general, NOT here- and clearly being ANTI and using this form (if you only look at this message board and cast the others out) you see often those who are seeking support to deal with medical professional are being grateful they have support from others that have had to "fight" with medical professionals for their rights - bottom line for me is - one side is being attacked IRL over rights that they have but are so often told they don't have, it's not even a fair fight

 

back to this thread - I don't see it as negative that the family choose to be public and frankly I see that it will HELP not hurt the anti-vaccine people, especially those on the fence, and those are the ones the PRO side knows they are not winning over, countless surveys (no matter what you pick apart on them) show more and more people are questioning and choosing to delay or not vac and that number is growing not decreasing 

 

It's unfortunate for the family but I don't see the medical community suddenly having some grand epiphany here where some new directive is issued saying people who don't vac should be shown respect, I doubt the family can sue for being up set, I doubt the person who did it will be fired and I doubt much will change even here - the same side that supports medical professionals calling for the end of exemptions will still continue to quote those people, will still say off the debate sections their views on those who don't vac and the perceived consequences they feel their children receive from the other side, and since it doesn't happen on the debate side (and even prior I never saw it either) will we see the PRO side coming out to help a mother who was just kicked out or had an encounter in the ER and lend them support- I think not

 

IRL - even those and you can add here too if you want, do PRO side make it clear that choices to not vac be supported or encouraged - NO


 

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