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#91 of 110 Old 12-01-2013, 10:04 AM
 
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Vaccines are in fact effective through herd immunity, which is why it's important for everyone who can be vaccinated to do so. 

how do you explain disease that have been eliminated without vaccinating the herd?

 

and with the pertussis study that just came out - http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1393501/brand-new-pertussis-study-let-us-discuss#post_17517806 how well is the herd thing really working with this vaccine?


 

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#92 of 110 Old 12-01-2013, 12:06 PM
 
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how do you explain disease that have been eliminated without vaccinating the herd?

 

and with the pertussis study that just came out - http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1393501/brand-new-pertussis-study-let-us-discuss#post_17517806 how well is the herd thing really working with this vaccine?

 

Which diseases are you talking about specifically? Bubonic plague? Because that one isn't generally transmitted from person to person, it's through fleas.  So in this case sanitation and rat control measures are generally responsible for the drop in cases. But it certainly hasn't been "eliminated".  Thousands of people every year still get the bubonic plague.  There are even certain parts of the US that report cases every year.  " In recent decades, an average of 7 human plague cases are reported each year (range: 1-17 cases per year). Plague has occurred in people of all ages (infants up to age 96), though 50% of cases occur in people ages 12–45. Worldwide, between 1,000 and 2,000 cases each year are reported to the World Health OrganizationExternal Web Site Icon (WHO), though the true number is likely much higher. " http://www.cdc.gov/plague/faq/#cases 

 

So to flip this question around, why do you think the vast majority of diseases *haven't* been completely eliminated? Measles, for example, has been around since the 7th century. Do you really think it's just a coincidence that the US went from millions of people getting measles a year to an average of 60 a year after the introduction of the vaccine? 
 
 
 

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#93 of 110 Old 12-01-2013, 12:16 PM
 
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how do you explain disease that have been eliminated without vaccinating the herd?

 

and with the pertussis study that just came out - http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1393501/brand-new-pertussis-study-let-us-discuss#post_17517806 how well is the herd thing really working with this vaccine?

 

Do you think that because herd immunity difficult to accomplish for Pertussis that it means that herd immunity hasn't been successful with other vaccines? 

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#94 of 110 Old 12-02-2013, 06:11 PM
 
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First I said eliminated not eradicated.  how do you explain disease that have been eliminated without vaccinating the herd?

 

Which diseases are you talking about specifically? Bubonic plague? typhoid, cholera, scarlatina, yellow fever (yes, the US use to have this too) and measles were also on the decline prior to the vaccination to name a few  Because that one isn't generally transmitted from person to person, it's through fleas.  So in this case sanitation and rat control measures are generally responsible for the drop in cases. But it certainly hasn't been "eliminated".  Thousands of people every year still get the bubonic plague.  There are even certain parts of the US that report cases every year.  " In recent decades, an average of 7 human plague cases are reported each year (range: 1-17 cases per year). Plague has occurred in people of all ages (infants up to age 96), though 50% of cases occur in people ages 12–45. Worldwide, between 1,000 and 2,000 cases each year are reported to the World Health OrganizationExternal Web Site Icon (WHO), though the true number is likely much higher. " http://www.cdc.gov/plague/faq/#cases 

 

So to flip this question around, why do you think the vast majority of diseases *haven't* been completely eliminated? Measles, for example, has been around since the 7th century. Do you really think it's just a coincidence that the US went from millions of people getting measles a year to an average of 60 a year after the introduction of the vaccine? 
 
 
ETA- Gonorrhoea and syphilis rates have also decline, that has nothing to do fleas either. And if this is about herd vaccination the assumption that it can only be done through having the heard vaccinated simply is not accurate.

so how well is the polio vaccine working out? now in Syria (who had near 90% vaccination rate pre-conflict) they doing booster for polio  - I did start a thread about this - I would like to know how PRO vaccers feel on this happening here.

 

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Do you think that because herd immunity difficult to accomplish for Pertussis that it means that herd immunity hasn't been successful with other vaccines? 

I assume you were not able to answer the questions I asked of you so you thought it would just ask me instead :rotflmao 


 

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#95 of 110 Old 12-02-2013, 06:23 PM
 
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Yellow fever is transmitted by mosquitos.  Environmental controls have eradicated it from the US.  Cholera is transmitted via contaminated water.  Eliminated from the US via sanitation and water treatment.  Typhoid is transmitted via contaminated food (salmonella), and it is most definitely not eradicated, in the US or elsewhere.  Not sure why you think it is.  Scarlet fever is cause by Group A strep, and again is most definitely not eradicated in the US.

 

And measles mortality, not incidence, was on the decline before the vaccine (thanks to better supportive medical care).

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#96 of 110 Old 12-03-2013, 12:30 PM
 
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so how well is the polio vaccine working out? now in Syria (who had near 90% vaccination rate pre-conflict) they doing booster for polio  - I did start a thread about this - I would like to know how PRO vaccers feel on this happening here.

I assume you were not able to answer the questions I asked of you so you thought it would just ask me instead :rotflmao

 

Well, teacozy answered your first question before I had a chance to, and I did answer your second question,  so :rotflmao  right back atcha.  :thumb

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#97 of 110 Old 12-03-2013, 01:28 PM
 
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Well, teacozy answered your first question before I had a chance to, and I did answer your second question,  so :rotflmao  right back atcha.  :thumb NOPE you simply asked me another question!  remember this was your reply?  :laughDo you think that because herd immunity difficult to accomplish for Pertussis that it means that herd immunity hasn't been successful with other vaccines? 

 

 

 

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Yellow fever is transmitted by mosquitos.  Environmental controls have eradicated it from the US.  Cholera is transmitted via contaminated water.  Eliminated from the US via sanitation and water treatment.  Typhoid is transmitted via contaminated food (salmonella), and it is most definitely not eradicated, in the US or elsewhere.  Not sure why you think it is.  Because I didn't say eradicated, you did. Scarlet fever is cause by Group A strep, and again is most definitely not eradicated in the US.

 

And measles mortality, not incidence, was on the decline before the vaccine (thanks to better supportive medical care).

Yellow fever is can be spread from human to human once infected.                    The US doesn't vaccinated for this and we once did have it here and it killed thousands. http://www.cdc.gov/yellowfever/transmission/index.html 

  • In Africa, an intermediate (savannah) cycle exists that involves transmission of virus from mosquitoes to humans living or working in jungle border areas. In this cycle, the virus can be transmitted from monkey to human or from human to human via mosquitoes

Yellow fever virus has three transmission cycles: jungle (sylvatic), intermediate (savannah), and urban.

Typhoid is also spread by humans handling food - not as simple as say it's just contaminated food like you make it seem, again we don't vaccinate here for it.

http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/divisions/dfbmd/diseases/typhoid_fever/#spreading

Salmonella Typhi lives only in humans. Persons with typhoid fever carry the bacteria in their bloodstream and intestinal tract. In addition, a small number of persons, called carriers, recover from typhoid fever but continue to carry the bacteria. Both ill persons and carriers shed Salmonella Typhi in their feces (stool). 

You can get typhoid fever if you eat food or drink beverages that have been handled by a person who is shedding Salmonella Typhi or if sewage contaminated with Salmonella Typhi bacteria gets into the water you use for drinking or washing food. 

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/scarletfever/Pages/transmission.aspx You can get scarlet fever through direct contact with mucus from the throat, fluid from the nose, or saliva of an infected person.

 

Yellow fever, typhoid, cholera and scarletina have all been virtually eliminated in the US without vaccinating the herd! The few case of typhoid that the US reports are reported to have been contracted outside of the US. 

 

 

again, I did not say eradicated but the numbers are so small we are not vaccinating the herd here for these disease and we are not having the numbers that we once did, not even close

 

we are hearing more and more about disease we are vaccinating the herd for and having "outbreaks" of them!


 

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#98 of 110 Old 12-03-2013, 02:36 PM
 
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On yellow fever. It can be spread from human to human VIA MOSQUITOES. During that intermediate stage it can also spread from nonhuman primate to human primate VIA MOSQUITOES. At no point can it spread directly from human to human. It was eliminated from the US by controlling the mosquito that spreads it. End of story.

Diseases spread by animal vectors and fecal/oral route are simple to control/eliminate with limited vaccination and modern stable infrastructure. If the US infrastructure collapsed, we'd have cholera and typhoid back in a heartbeat.

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#99 of 110 Old 12-03-2013, 03:21 PM
 
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Thank you, Katie.  Beat me to it.

 

I'm not sure how Serenbat can put up that whole diagram, look at it, and still think that yellow fever is transmitted human to human.

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#100 of 110 Old 12-03-2013, 04:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 

 

Well, teacozy answered your first question before I had a chance to, and I did answer your second question,  so :rotflmao  right back atcha.  :thumb NOPE you simply asked me another question!  remember this was your reply?  :laughDo you think that because herd immunity difficult to accomplish for Pertussis that it means that herd immunity hasn't been successful with other vaccines?

 

I'm aware of my reply.  You asked how herd immunity was working with the pertussis vaccine, and I acknowledged that it's difficult to accomplish herd immunity though that vaccine.  How is that not answering the question?

 

Also, your chart illustrates how yellow fever is actually not transmitted human to human, and the text you copied, pasted, (and bolded!) says it outright...it's transmitted via mosquitoes. 

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#101 of 110 Old 12-03-2013, 05:59 PM
 
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Diseases spread by animal vectors and fecal/oral route are simple to control/eliminate with limited vaccination and modern stable infrastructure. If the US infrastructure collapsed, we'd have cholera and typhoid back in a heartbeat.

Like rotavirus?  It is fecal-oral.

 

Mosquito born illness can be very difficult to prevent.  Think West Nile, or in more tropical areas, things like Dengue fever.  Getting rid of mosquitoes in an area is not easy at all.  

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#102 of 110 Old 12-03-2013, 06:23 PM
 
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I'm aware of my reply.  You asked how herd immunity was working with the pertussis vaccine, and I acknowledged that it's difficult to accomplish herd immunity though that vaccine.  How is that not answering the question? NO, You asks me, you did not state your answer - these are your wordsDo you think that because herd immunity difficult to accomplish for Pertussis that it means that herd immunity hasn't been successful with other vaccines? That sentence is a question - you asked ME and end it with a ?

Herd immunity isn't working yet you have been say this whole thread it does.

Also, your chart illustrates how yellow fever is actually not transmitted human to human, and the text you copied, pasted, (and bolded!) says it outright...it's transmitted via mosquitoes. 


 

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#103 of 110 Old 12-03-2013, 06:27 PM
 
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Thank you, Katie.  Beat me to it.

 

I'm not sure how Serenbat can put up that whole diagram, look at it, and still think that yellow fever is transmitted human to human.

 

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On yellow fever. It can be spread from human to human VIA MOSQUITOES. During that intermediate stage it can also spread from nonhuman primate to human primate VIA MOSQUITOES. At no point can it spread directly from human to human. It was eliminated from the US by controlling the mosquito that spreads it. End of story.

Diseases spread by animal vectors and fecal/oral route are simple to control/eliminate with limited vaccination and modern stable infrastructure. If the US infrastructure collapsed, we'd have cholera and typhoid back in a heartbeat.

may this will help you with yellow fever - http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs100/en/

  • Urban yellow fever: Large epidemics occur when infected people introduce the virus into densely populated areas with a high number of non-immune people and Aedes mosquitoes. Infected mosquitoes transmit the virus from person to person.

http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/yellow-fever

Urban yellow fever occurs when the Aedes aegyptispecies of domestic mosquito transmits the virus between humans, without transmission via other primates.

 

 

 

 

ETA- Let me try and put this in again - it is not pasting for some reason - 

 

 

 

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs100/en/

  1. Urban yellow fever: Large epidemics occur when infected people introduce the virus into densely populated areas with a high number of non-immune people and Aedes mosquitoes. Infected mosquitoes transmit the virus from person to person.

 

http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/yellow-fever

Urban yellow fever occurs when the Aedes aegyptispecies of domestic mosquito transmits the virus between humans, without transmission via other primates.


 

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#104 of 110 Old 12-03-2013, 06:29 PM
 
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Like rotavirus?  It is fecal-oral.

 

Mosquito born illness can be very difficult to prevent.  Think West Nile, or in more tropical areas, things like Dengue fever.  Getting rid of mosquitoes in an area is not easy at all.  

 

and Lyme, that vaccine "failed" because not enough would agree to have it  


 

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#105 of 110 Old 12-03-2013, 07:21 PM
 
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I'm aware of my reply.  You asked how herd immunity was working with the pertussis vaccine, and I acknowledged that it's difficult to accomplish herd immunity though that vaccine.  How is that not answering the question? NO, You asks me, you did not state your answer - these are your wordsDo you think that because herd immunity difficult to accomplish for Pertussis that it means that herd immunity hasn't been successful with other vaccines? That sentence is a question - you asked ME and end it with a ?

Herd immunity isn't working yet you have been say this whole thread it does.


 

 

I'm sorry, but you are making a ridiculous point about how I worded my question.  I stated my agreement that herd immunity is difficult to achieve using the current vaccine, and asked if you realize that this isn't therefore true about ALL vaccines, and you are nitpicking that I didn't use two separate sentences...a statement AND a question...to express those two points.   What victory you think you are scoring from that eludes me completely.

 

Your statement:  "Herd immunity isn't working" is simply wrong.  It works well with some diseases and immunizations, and your example of pertussis does not refute that. 

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#106 of 110 Old 12-04-2013, 11:40 AM
 
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Like rotavirus?  It is fecal-oral.

 

 

Yes, but rotavirus is much more easily transmitted than typhoid.  Rotavirus can spread through toys, door knobs, changing tables, high chars etc.  Typhoid is spread through ingesting food or water contaminated by a person shedding Salmonella Typhi.  It's not generally transmitted by touching a door knob that someone with typhoid touches and then getting it like you can with rotavirus. 


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#107 of 110 Old 12-04-2013, 03:46 PM
 
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You need a much larger number of cholera bacteria to transmit the illness than of rotavirus. They are transmitted by the fecal-oral route but they have a lot of differences, too. (Wow, it's like microbiology is complicated or something!)
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#108 of 110 Old 12-04-2013, 04:54 PM
 
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may this will help you with yellow fever - http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs100/en/

  • Urban yellow fever: Large epidemics occur when infected people introduce the virus into densely populated areas with a high number of non-immune people and Aedes mosquitoes. Infected mosquitoes transmit the virus from person to person.

http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/yellow-fever

Urban yellow fever occurs when the Aedes aegyptispecies of domestic mosquito transmits the virus between humans, without transmission via other primates.

 

 

 

 

ETA- Let me try and put this in again - it is not pasting for some reason - 

 

 

 

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs100/en/

  1. Urban yellow fever: Large epidemics occur when infected people introduce the virus into densely populated areas with a high number of non-immune people and Aedes mosquitoes. Infected mosquitoes transmit the virus from person to person.

 

http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/yellow-fever

Urban yellow fever occurs when the Aedes aegyptispecies of domestic mosquito transmits the virus between humans, without transmission via other primates.

Well, thanks for making it EXTRA clear that yellow fever is not transmitted from human to human.

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#109 of 110 Old 12-04-2013, 05:03 PM
 
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You need a much larger number of cholera bacteria to transmit the illness than of rotavirus. They are transmitted by the fecal-oral route but they have a lot of differences, too. (Wow, it's like microbiology is complicated or something!)

Snort.

 

You made a broad sweeping statement (quote below) and I disproved it.  Guess you don't like that.  

 

"Diseases spread by animal vectors and fecal/oral route are simple to control/eliminate with limited vaccination and modern stable infrastructure" 


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#110 of 110 Old 12-05-2013, 09:40 AM
 
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Actually, kathymuggle, I was poking at myself a little.
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