Pertussis Outbreaks and Responsible Public Health Policy - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 21 Old 11-18-2013, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Right now, U.S. state laws dictate that when there's an outbreak of a vaccine-targeted disease, children not vaccinated for that disease must stay home from school and daycare.

Now that we know the weaknesses of the pertussis vaccine, and that it can transmit between vaccinated individuals, should schools and childcare centers close entirely during outbreaks in order to curb outbreaks and reduce transmission? If you vaccinate for pertussis, would you voluntarily quarantine your children during an outbreak?

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#2 of 21 Old 11-19-2013, 05:00 AM
 
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I'm holding my breath!

 

Let's see, the CDC comes out and admits it in a big public service campaign??? Celebrity starts (maybe JLo can also do those ads) and the public confedence in vaccines becomes what??? Personally I would like Offit to do the PSA - I would pay to see that one! 

 

That might eliminate teachers from violating privacy to see who is and isn't vaccinated. But staying closed also means (to low level, non union and to many daycare workers) - NO work, NO pay! 

 

Seems I do remember when CP vac first came out, one of the pushers was that you as a parent didn't need to have to take off work, sure keeping home a whopping cough child will go over real well in the public arena. :laugh

 

BIG Pharma will love that more would question effectiveness of vaccines! Yea, haw I'm all for it!!!!!!!!!!! :twins 


 

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#3 of 21 Old 11-19-2013, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Part of me shares your cynicism, Serenbat.

But as a parent who's chosen this vaccine for the children, I'm genuinely interested in this question. If schools close, do public health officials run the risk of parents questioning the vaccine? In the end, which will be more important to these officials--saving lives through proper disease control measures, (as just one example, vaccinated children bringing the disease home to baby siblings could present a deadly scenario), or maintaining public credibility in the black-and-white, safe-and-effective message?
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#4 of 21 Old 11-19-2013, 10:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

Part of me shares your cynicism, Serenbat.

But as a parent whose chosen this vaccine for the children, I'm genuinely interested in this question. If schools close, do public health officials run the risk of parents questioning the vaccine? In the end, which will be more important to these officials--saving lives through proper disease control measures, (as just one example, vaccinated children bringing the disease home to baby siblings could present a deadly scenario), or maintaining public credibility in the black-and-white, safe-and-effective message?

Isn't that what is happening right now? The more "some" are not in school when there is an outbreak, the more parents are questioning! There have been tons of post (yes in the past here) where mom's say about children that have been vaccinated and they go for help from the Dr only to not be treated for the illness, in this case WC until they keep going back again - that does wake some parents up to it's not 100% - frankly IRL, I see few that feel they are not 100% - no matter what some say, the message clearly is NOT getting out there from CDC/govt, Peds, etc, that in general things are not 100% - especially with WC.

Out break - it's just jump to "it's the UN-vaccinated CHILD spreading it", not an unvaccinated adult - because of privacy, I do really question at some schools, how many are not vaccinated for WC when an outbreak happens vs those who are.

 

I just don't see it happening, the really would, as I put it, make you question MORE vaccines, not just WC - I don't know how the Govt can do that - A school just can't  - someone would question if the CDC doesn't come out, how can just a school pick and choose? In my state the Dept of Health would have to be involved and here they don't let you know vaccines are not 100%. 

 

Do they care more about public perception vs real health (closing a institution) - IMO it's a resounding YES, just add another booster is what the response has been.

 

Adults that come into schools, be it even a repair person or a vendor do not need to be up to date on their vaccines - many people tend to forget things like this - we recently had an election in my state - some are held at schools. 


 

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#5 of 21 Old 11-20-2013, 10:41 AM
 
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BUMP!

 

:lurk would love to hear the PRO- take on this!

 

So what is reasonable from the side that doesn't seem to feel there is much problem here except for all the unvaccinated children.  How many VACCINATED in an out break warrant a closing? 


 

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#6 of 21 Old 11-20-2013, 05:08 PM
 
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I have decided not to respond to any threads in which the little icon with popcorn eating appears. I just broke that rule I know, but I thought I would explain my lack of interest in debating in places where my opinions are wanted in order to be trashed. 


Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#7 of 21 Old 11-20-2013, 05:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
 

I have decided not to respond to any threads in which the little icon with popcorn eating appears. I just broke that rule I know, but I thought I would explain my lack of interest in debating in places where my opinions are wanted in order to be trashed. 

Turquesa asked a straight forward insightful question (S), and it has been up for awhile, all the while the regular PRO vaccers didn't even bother to post, yet did so on other topics way prior to my post- don't blame it on pop-corn :lurk


 

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#8 of 21 Old 11-21-2013, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I have decided not to respond to any threads in which the little icon with popcorn eating appears. I just broke that rule I know, but I thought I would explain my lack of interest in debating in places where my opinions are wanted in order to be trashed. 


 



duh.gif If somebody's response is a personal attack or other UAV, just click the little flag icon and be done with it. I asked my questions two days before you posted this, so it's not like you were planning to respond, anyway. Let's not use popcorn-dude as the excuse.

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#9 of 21 Old 11-21-2013, 08:30 PM
 
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The CDC has stated that recent pertussis outbreaks are not caused by unvaccinated children, but instead are caused by the virus evolving to evade the vaccine. Studies estimate that up to 90% of children who with pertussis are, in fact, vaccinated against it.

Vaccination is no longer the best way to prevent disease. Up to this point if a child is unvaccinated and an outbreak at their school occurs, they must be sent home to help prevent the spreading of the illness. I believe that in order to combat these outbreaks in our schools we need to quarantine every child, vaccinated or not as soon as there has been 2 confirmed cases.

In addition, I believe we need to educate the public and push actual health-improving protocols in our schools. Don’t just teach about health, enforce it! Hand washing between classes, before and after eating, before and after recess. Speaking of which, bring back recess! Vitamin D3 is essential for immune system support and it also helps fight depression and anxiety. The best source for vitamin D3 is direct sunlight on bare skin.

School meals need to be plant-based and healthful! Processed junk, fake meat and canned veggies do not a healthy child make! Fresh, real, whole foods and limiting beverages to water will create healthier and more alert children.Including a daily multivitamin with lunch would help fill in the gaps for children living in poverty.

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#10 of 21 Old 11-22-2013, 04:35 AM
 
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In addition, I believe we need to educate the public and push actual health-improving protocols in our schools. Don’t just teach about health, enforce it! 

about a year ago in the schooling section there was a tread about a kindy student and how the girl was required to bring in and use "wipes" because there was not enough time at snack time to wash hands - I fail to see how there is not enough time to wash hands in a public school!

 

we don't do school, we HS, I did ask around in my area and heard from another out of state and both told me of the "list" of stuff that students are required to bring at the beginning of the year to class - tons and tons of diaper wipes and hand sanitizer! PUKE!

 

and in my pipe dreams, schools would have to forced to give up sorts and convert the lush, emerald, manicured playing fields into gardens and get out each day and work in it - but they have been saturated for years with pesticides :( 


 

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#11 of 21 Old 11-25-2013, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, this is interesting.

http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2013/11/22/london-madison-plains-school-pertussis-outbreak.html

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#12 of 21 Old 11-25-2013, 12:54 PM
 
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And would it be safe to say that most children affected have been vaccinated?
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#13 of 21 Old 11-25-2013, 01:06 PM
 
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Most children have been vaccinated, so it's probably fair to say that most children affected have been vaccinated.  What matters is the percentage of unvaccinated children with pertussis as compared to the percentage of vaccinated children with pertussis.


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#14 of 21 Old 11-25-2013, 01:16 PM
 
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http://www.odh.ohio.gov/en/odhprograms/dis/immunization/immform.aspx


 

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#15 of 21 Old 11-25-2013, 01:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
 

I have decided not to respond to any threads in which the little icon with popcorn eating appears. I just broke that rule I know, but I thought I would explain my lack of interest in debating in places where my opinions are wanted in order to be trashed. 

I would extend that policy to threads with the :laughsmiley as well, personally. 

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#16 of 21 Old 11-25-2013, 06:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

Part of me shares your cynicism, Serenbat.

But as a parent who's chosen this vaccine for the children, I'm genuinely interested in this question. If schools close, do public health officials run the risk of parents questioning the vaccine? In the end, which will be more important to these officials--saving lives through proper disease control measures, (as just one example, vaccinated children bringing the disease home to baby siblings could present a deadly scenario), or maintaining public credibility in the black-and-white, safe-and-effective message?

Bolding mine.

 

I think they would go for the latter, primarily to try and maintain fath in the vaccine program as a whole. 


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#17 of 21 Old 11-25-2013, 06:09 PM
 
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Most children have been vaccinated, so it's probably fair to say that most children affected have been vaccinated.  What matters is the percentage of unvaccinated children with pertussis as compared to the percentage of vaccinated children with pertussis.

We don't know how many vaccinated kids get pertussis - as pertussis in the vaccinated is often symptom free, and thus under-reported,  but still transmissible.

 

I think the most useful thing to know would be where newborns (the ones most at risk from pertussis) get pertussis from.  As I understand it, most get it from a parent or sibling.  Are those parents and siblings typically vaccinated?  


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#18 of 21 Old 11-25-2013, 06:11 PM
 
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http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1393501/brand-new-pertussis-study-let-us-discuss this really ties into it :eyesroll


 

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#19 of 21 Old 11-26-2013, 04:51 PM
 
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I have decided not to respond to any threads in which the little icon with popcorn eating appears. I just broke that rule I know, but I thought I would explain my lack of interest in debating in places where my opinions are wanted in order to be trashed. 

@prosciencemum

I don't jump in to the vaccines debate threads, but I lurk here frequently, and I have to say that I was really bothered by this comment.  Isn't your very username just a version of the popcorn dude?  You're pro-science and pro-vax, so that makes the anti-vaxers just a bunch of anti-science idiots, right?  Just some crazy, backward, voodoo druids or something?  Because Science is this infallible, uncomplicated, static entity?  

 

LIke I said, I'm a lurker here.  I have three kids under 6, and my views on vaccines have been evolving since becoming a parent.  I know who the players in this forum are, who I trust, who I take with a grain of salt, and who isn't saying anything compelling to me at all.  You're not debating here because you're going to convince any of the active voices, and they're not going to convince you.  You're here for the lurkers who are on the fence.  So say your piece and don't let the popcorn dude hurt your feelings.  I'll try not to be insulted by your user name.

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#20 of 21 Old 11-26-2013, 07:08 PM
 
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We don't know how many vaccinated kids get pertussis - as pertussis in the vaccinated is often symptom free, and thus under-reported,  but still transmissible.

 

I think the most useful thing to know would be where newborns (the ones most at risk from pertussis) get pertussis from.  As I understand it, most get it from a parent or sibling.  Are those parents and siblings typically vaccinated?  

I think it's also useful to know why some newborns who are exposed to pertussis DON'T get it.

 

My understanding is that it's more complicated than just the fact that breastfeeding confers protection.  Women who got pertussis as children apparently confer far more effective immunity against pertussis through their milk than women who were vaccinated.

 

Obviously, this could end up being completely moot as pertussis mutates into something not protected against by naturally-designed immunity nor by vaccine-conferred antibodies.

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#21 of 21 Old 11-30-2013, 04:48 AM
 
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@prosciencemum

I don't jump in to the vaccines debate threads, but I lurk here frequently, and I have to say that I was really bothered by this comment.  Isn't your very username just a version of the popcorn dude?  You're pro-science and pro-vax, so that makes the anti-vaxers just a bunch of anti-science idiots, right?  Just some crazy, backward, voodoo druids or something?  Because Science is this infallible, uncomplicated, static entity?  

 

LIke I said, I'm a lurker here.  I have three kids under 6, and my views on vaccines have been evolving since becoming a parent.  I know who the players in this forum are, who I trust, who I take with a grain of salt, and who isn't saying anything compelling to me at all.  You're not debating here because you're going to convince any of the active voices, and they're not going to convince you.  You're here for the lurkers who are on the fence.  So say your piece and don't let the popcorn dude hurt your feelings.  I'll try not to be insulted by your user name.

 

 

I think it real important (regardless exactly who this poster is mentioning besides @prosciencemum) that many read but do not post (they tends to be greatly under estimated) and when this thread and http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1393501/brand-new-pertussis-study-let-us-discuss also gets posted, with clearly one side prospective, that send a message to moms like this one - it's also quite clear to moms like me that do post-only certain topics one side addresses, regardless of the importance it holds to others on here

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