Mother believes her 19 yr old son died from complications of flu shot - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 11:47 AM
 
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duh.gif  Right. And I don't believe there is any need to vaxx my kids against a whole host of things. And I don't fear any of the diseases you listed nor do I teach my children to. And I don't think that millions of 20 years olds are going to drop dead from the flu because they decided against the flu vaxx after seeing this story.

 

Not millions, just a few thousand here and there. Won't be in the news, anyway.

 

And about your opinion to teach your kids not to fear any virus in that list. Your kids aren't teens yet? HIV is pretty scary. 

 

But let us hope there will be a vaccine soon!

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#62 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 11:55 AM
 
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And about your opinion to teach your kids not to fear any virus in that list. Your kids aren't teens yet? HIV is pretty scary.

 

Thanks for your concern. Our beliefs about sex in general are probably not shared by you, so not going there, but needless to say that at the moment they are at ZERO risk of contracting it.

 

Either way, not really scared of it. Certainly it is not good, but it is not the death sentence it used to be. Maybe you should read more about it - http://projecthopeful.org/ - my friends with hiv+ children are pretty tired of the fear-mongering going on that ostracizes their kids.

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#63 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 12:03 PM
 
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No, it is not a death sentence. But if there was a vaccine, my kids would get it. If it was as safe as the other, standard ones we get now. That is certainly safer than the meds you get when being HIV positive. Or the risks from virus itself, right? 

 

And no, we probably don't share the same ideas on sex. But then, my adult, adopted kids don't share the same ideas as I do. Nor do they share everything they do. Teens rarely do. My girl INSISTED on the HPV three years before coming sexually active. She was a very late bloomer. 

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#64 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 12:05 PM
 
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Anyway, this thread has gone way off track. You fear diseases. I fear vaccines. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Reality is that our children are at much higher risk of death from things we do every single day than from either of VAD or a vaxx. So we as parents get to make those decisions for ourselves. And we get to share our stories online and with the media. Free speech and all that.


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#65 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 12:06 PM
 
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There is a trackable reduction in MMR in the UK linked back to press around Wakefield.

And there are measles outbreaks which cause hospitalization and contributed to at least 1 death linked to that reduction in MMR vaccination.

It was in the news this summer - doesn't take much research to find. We even discussed it here.

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#66 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 12:11 PM
 
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Anyway, this thread has gone way off track. You fear diseases. I fear vaccines. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Reality is that our children are at much higher risk of death from things we do every single day than from either of VAD or a vaxx. So we as parents get to make those decisions for ourselves. And we get to share our stories online and with the media. Free speech and all that.

 

True. 

 

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There is a trackable reduction in MMR in the UK linked back to press around Wakefield.

And there are measles outbreaks which cause hospitalization and contributed to at least 1 death linked to that reduction in MMR vaccination.

It was in the news this summer - doesn't take much research to find. We even discussed it here.

 

UK or US news? Those cases make the news, too. Luckily.

 

I do wish that the 46 kids who get diagnosed with cancer in the US every day would make it to the news, too. 

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#67 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 12:13 PM
 
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Or the gun deaths.... But that's another issue entirely.

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#68 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 12:15 PM
 
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I do wish that the 46 kids who get diagnosed with cancer in the US every day would make it to the news, too.

 

That we can agree on. But I find that the news is pretty useless altogether anyway. There are primarily more interested in who fathered a Kardashian baby and what Miley did than they are in actual news.

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#69 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 01:28 PM
 
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That we can agree on. But I find that the news is pretty useless altogether anyway. There are primarily more interested in who fathered a Kardashian baby and what Miley did than they are in actual news.

 

 

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#70 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 02:58 PM
 
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It is more likely to get shingles from the disease than from vaccines. Had this discussion before, I even provided the CDC link. 

Shingles is on the rise in people who have had natural occurring CP ( in my country - pretty much everyone over 15 or so) and that rise is thought to be caused  lack of immune boost.  Once upon a time those who had CP got an immune boost that is thought to keep shingles at bay any time they encountered someone with CP.  The decrease in wild CP has led to an increase in shingles in those who have already had CP.  

 

Here is a slightly old mainstream article on the issue:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/03/health/03vaccine.html

 

I will stop going OT.  I simply think the idea that fear-mongering about all viruses as a completely good thing is preposterous - and the above is one reason why.  

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#71 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 03:49 PM
 
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#72 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 03:50 PM
 
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Shingles is on the rise in people who have had natural occurring CP ( in my country - pretty much everyone over 15 or so) and that rise is thought to be caused  lack of immune boost.  Once upon a time those who had CP got an immune boost that is thought to keep shingles at bay any time they encountered someone with CP.  The decrease in wild CP has led to an increase in shingles in those who have already had CP.  

Here is a slightly old mainstream article on the issue:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/03/health/03vaccine.html

I will stop going OT.  I simply think the idea that fear-mongering about all viruses as a completely good thing is preposterous - and the above is one reason why.  

"Several studies report that the overall incidence of herpes zoster started increasing before the varicella vaccine was introduced in the United States. The reasons for this increase are not well understood. Currently, there is no evidence that increases in herpes zoster incidence in the United States have been accelerated by the varicella vaccination program."


http://www.cdc.gov/shingles/hcp/clinical-overview.html

Plus, there's now a shingles vaccine.

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#73 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 04:30 PM
 
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Plus, there's now a shingles vaccine.

The shingles vaccine is about 50% effective, and not universally covered.  

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/shingles/hcp-vaccination.htm

 

Another study showing how the increase in shingles may be related to less wild chicken pox:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0066485

 

Really, though, you are going to believe what suits your choices. You could shoot that ball right back at me.  Confirmation bias at its finest.  You could also say we could let the specialists decide - nice, but assuming they would even treat the issue fairly, it would take decades to sort out.  

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#74 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 04:36 PM
 
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Shingles is on the rise in the UK, too. And we don't vaccinate for CP. 

 

Sucks that the shingles vax isn't that good yet, but 50% is better than a kick up the arse. They will hopefully improve it soon. 

 

CP is another reason of my not believing in our awesome immune system or the theory that viruses make us stronger ;)

 

Where does that idea come from, anyway? Any proof?

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#75 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 04:46 PM
 
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Where does that idea come from, anyway? Any proof?

 

Proof is such a hard word.  It is a very high bar.  I think we have theories more than proof a lot of the time.

 

In any event:

 

Hygeine hypothesis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841828/

 

mumps may help prevent Ovarian cancer:

http://www.dfhcc.harvard.edu/news/news/article/283/?PHPSESSID=384434aea5a51986e0acc2dfebba82f6

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#76 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 05:22 PM
 
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One of the great things about facts is that it doesn't matter whether you believe in them or not. There is ultimately reality, and the reality is, vaccines save lives. They have saved millions of lives. They even protect the lives of those who never get vaccinated, by way of herd immunity. I'm summing up here- need sources, take a public health course.

Using a real-life case to illustrate facts, to make them real to the listener, is not fear mongering. Fear mongering is done when you don't have the facts, the stats, to back your view point up. If I tell fruitfulmomma about a girl from a devoutly religious household who I treated for chlamydia at age 15 (with no HIPAA violating details!!), it would not be fear mongering, as teens who are raised with "abstinence only" education are less likely to use condoms when they do become sexually active.

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#77 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 05:39 PM
 
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If I tell fruitfulmomma about a girl from a devoutly religious household who I treated for chlamydia at age 15 (with no HIPAA violating details!!), it would not be fear mongering, as teens who are raised with "abstinence only" education are less likely to use condoms when they do become sexually active.

 

Pretty sure I said we weren't going to discuss my kids and their sexuality in this thread, nor did I say anything about what we do and don't teach. Totally uncalled for for you to even bring that up.

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#78 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 06:05 PM
 
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Using a real-life case to illustrate facts, to make them real to the listener, is not fear mongering. No, but it is an anecdote, which is of limited value (or is it only of limited value when the other side does it?)  

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#79 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 06:54 PM
 
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Pity that the people who died from viruses aren't in the news, there would at least be some balance. 

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This isn't about forums, just the media. People in forums can bloody well post whatever they like. But if the media over-represents vaccine-scandals that might not even be true, it could have nasty long-term effects. 

 

Today, seven children in the US died from cancer. Tomorrow, another seven children will die from cancer. Can't find the articles in the news. 

 

 

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UK or US news? Those cases make the news, too. Luckily.

 

I do wish that the 46 kids who get diagnosed with cancer in the US every day would make it to the news, too. 

 

just in this thread alone!

you seem to want a lot in the news and off the topic of this tread headscratch.gif

 

many people choose not to be in the news nor to put their children in, regardless of the issue, disease, virus, cancer, etc - it's called privacy, be it personal or the fact that they don't want their children bombard with childhood death from cancer all over the place

 

actually I see quite a bit about children with cancer in the news, I guess not the large amount you desire - lots, from the Make a Wish to locals dealing with it and some dead (we have an annually occurring event for a toddler that died of cancer in my area and they raise money for it year round, you can see bins all over)- I see stories on clusters in my area as well, one recently that the family choose not to use their names nor make the lots of the information public, the felt there was too much out there (their words on it) and didn't want more news stories about it.

 

It also comes of as odd this fixation with "disease" and this great "heard" mentality you seem to bring it up in almost every thread too.

 

IRL, I have found many with cancer (parents dealing with their own children and adults dealing themselves) are not these big heard fan that seem to be so rampant here, actually quite the opposite - the avoidance of the heard comes into play.

Since many learn about the roles that freshly vaced children play in their lives when they deal with cancer, it is also a time the information on vaccines and their effects really play a larger roles in many lives that they never did prior, not to mention toxins take on a whole new meaning to some (as in what really is in vaccines). Suddenly heard isn't the great thing to many and it does change their perspective on vaccines greatly.

 

This information can be found on many sites-

http://www.upmccancercenter.com/cainformation/chemotherapy.cfm

  • Follow your doctor's advice about when to have a flu shot. You should avoid babies, children, or adults who have received live vaccinations within six to eight weeks. Live vaccinations include BCG (used to test for tuberculosis), chicken pox, measles, mumps, rubella, oral polio and yellow fever. A person who has received a live vaccination continues to shed small amounts of the live virus in their tears, saliva, nasal secretions, perspiration, urine and feces for one month. You are at high risk for contracting the virus if exposed to even a small amount of live vaccine. In many cases, scheduled vaccines can be postponed. If this is not possible, we will assist you in arranging alternative plans to avoid exposure.
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There is a trackable reduction in MMR in the UK linked back to press around Wakefield.

And there are measles outbreaks which cause hospitalization and contributed to at least 1 death linked to that reduction in MMR vaccination.

It was in the news this summer - doesn't take much research to find. We even discussed it here.
 so glad you brought this up - we should remember it or google it if you don't know - that young man, he was not diagnosed when he went to the hospitable, he was sent home and they only found out he had measles in his postmortem - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/swansea-man-who-died-during-4802699

 

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Go research it! 

 

another ongoing thread theme - say and don't support it :laugh

 

yes, we all can, we can look at the CDC and really see how many are dying from these things every year - it's not call  fear - I call it facts with numbers, and well, they don't add up and warrant news stories for every one  - the desire doesn't seem to be there

 

also there is this thing called privacy, and many people just don't wish to have what every they have out there 

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#80 of 85 Old 11-29-2013, 07:05 PM
 
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and here we see just another "coincidence", child gets shot, child suffers mysterious illness and/or death, but no one wants to believe it could be the vaccine.  I witnessed the same sick denial in my own son's case.   It's always something else, but they never know what that "something else" is.   SMH

It is really an odd thing - you DO see news stories on those who win a Mega million or other super out of this world jackpot, where the odds are beyond crazy!!! yet they get those numbers - they BEAT the odds…….

 

and 

 

in the same way, we DO know vaccines can cause reactions, some sever, those are also odds, but when someone wins the money $$ lottery we are happy for them (in most cases, yet mad it was not us) but when someone hits that vaccine lottery, we don't even believe it happen to them - and you know I have also read some NEWS stories where lottery winners win a SECOND time too!  - just google it! lottery winner second time around :eyesroll


 

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#81 of 85 Old 12-09-2013, 02:04 PM
 
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This is one anecdote.  We cannot draw conclusions from one anecdote.  That does not mean I disbelieve the mother though.  Who  am I to disbelieve her?  The arrogance!  

 

 

Just now going through some parts of this thread I missed and this stuck out at me.  I know chickabiddy already addressed this, but this argument always bothers me.  It almost feels like an accusation, like I am calling other mothers liars.   Fact is, giving birth does not come with a medical degree.  I can certainly believe a mother when they say X happened sometime after receiving a vaccine, but I don't have to believe that the vaccine caused X just because they say so or think it did.  That doesn't make me arrogant. 


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#82 of 85 Old 12-10-2013, 07:05 AM
 
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  Fact is, giving birth does not come with a medical degree.  I can certainly believe a mother when they say X happened sometime after receiving a vaccine, but I don't have to believe that the vaccine caused X just because they say so or think it did.  That doesn't make me arrogant. 

 

Well you certainly do come off as showing you are superior in your thought (that vaccine reactions can not occur) that it can not be true, and that is part of what arrogant means. 

 

Stating a mother does not get a medical degree by giving birth is true, it is also true that having a medical degree does not make one infallible and your snippy remarks comes off as if a mother is wrong because she does not have the degree you hold to such high esteem. 

 

I have a ped I love, he hold to the understanding the mother knows her child best, not him, and he acknowledges medicine is FALLIBLE and also he is, the degree does not change that.

 

Even the CDC acknowledges it, they state reactions DO occur. Someone, sadly has to be in that percentage that has a reaction and it can be severe or cause death - that is a fact. Medicine (be a Dr or a medication or a vaccine) is fallible, not acknowledging it is arrogant-IMO

 

Instead of being so insulating why couldn't you acknowledge it can happen? We do know that is true.

Kathymuggle doesn't know, I don't know and frankly you and chickyabiddy don't know it either.

 

Tea you have stated your child is young so you still have time, we should hope you never have your mothering questioned but if it should ever happen, wouldn't it be nice if someone believed you?

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#83 of 85 Old 12-10-2013, 09:09 AM
 
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There a big difference between saying it can't possibly be a reaction and saying that just because it happened right after a vaccination doesn't mean it is definitely a reaction….. 

 

The one surety about medicine in my experience is that nothing is really that sure - they work on best guesses, and most likely outcomes more often than most of us would like to admit! ;) 


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#84 of 85 Old 12-10-2013, 09:11 AM
 
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Nobody is questioning this mother's mothering.  Some of us are questioning her medical diagnostic skills.

 

It is possible that this young man died from a reaction to the vaccine.  It is also possible that he died of completely unrelated reasons.  Without an autopsy, we probably will never know (we may not have known even with an autopsy).

 

It is not arrogant to say that the mother doesn't know either why her son died.  She doesn't.


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#85 of 85 Old 12-10-2013, 01:12 PM
 
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Nobody is questioning this mother's mothering.  Some of us are questioning her medical diagnostic skills.

 

It is possible that this young man died from a reaction to the vaccine.  It is also possible that he died of completely unrelated reasons.  Without an autopsy, we probably will never know (we may not have known even with an autopsy).

 

It is not arrogant to say that the mother doesn't know either why her son died.  She doesn't.

:yeah

 

It's incredibly sad, but sometimes these things just happen.   Here's a story from this year of a teenager who collapsed a day after feeling sick while at a music festival.  An autopsy showed there were no illegal substances and her death is unexplained.  Within the same week a second teenager also collapsed and died at a music festival.  No explanation.  Had these teenagers been given any vaccine beforehand, the parents would almost certainly blame the vaccine for their deaths.  

 

James Houghton http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/28/student-james-houghton-dies-leeds-festival_n_3829038.html

 

Esme Blore http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/esme-blore-death-parents-teenager-2235189

 

"The parents of a teenage girl who died after becoming ill at Reading Festival say they are "in limbo" as they wait for answers about their daughter's death.

Seventeen-year-old Esme Blore, from Stevington near Bedford, is thought to have begun feeling unwell as she joined thousands of music fans at Reading Festival on Saturday.

She was taken to hospital in Reading and later discharged. But she collapsed after returning home on Sunday, and was rushed to Northampton General Hospital where she later died.

Tragedy also struck at Reading's sister festival in Leeds over the weekend, where 19-year-old guitarist James Houghton collapsed and died.

Police are investigating the circumstances surrounding his "unexplained" death, but it is not being treated as suspicious.

James, from Hartlepool, was due to take up a place at Manchester University next month." 

 

As I said, an autopsy was conducted on Esme and no cause of death could be determined. 

"A 17-year-old girl who died after attending the Reading Festival had not taken any illegal substances.

Esme Blore, of Stevington in Bedfordshire, died in hospital in August.

A post-mortem examination carried out at the time proved inconclusive. Northamptonshire Police said toxicology reports showed she had not taken an illegal substances.

An inquest into her death was opened and adjourned in September."  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24909727

These stories are all equally sad, but unexplained deaths in teenagers unfortunately happen, even in teenagers that didn't recently receive an HPV or Flu vaccine.  So you can see why many of us want/need more information before just assuming that unexplained teenage death sometime after a vaccine = vaccine must have caused it. 


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
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