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#301 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 11:30 AM
 
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Drink? Doesn't go well with Tylenol.

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#302 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 11:35 AM
 
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Drink? Doesn't go well with Tylenol.

 

Well it might be ok with an organic Tylenol ;) 

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#303 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 11:43 AM
 
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This one says a lot:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17928818

 

 

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Abstract

A suggested association between certain childhood vaccines and autism has been one of the most contentious vaccine safety controversies in recent years. Despite compelling scientific evidence against a causal association, many parents and parent advocacy groups continue to suspect that vaccines, particularly measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and thimerosal-containing vaccines (TCVs), can cause autism.

 

The author DeStefano, F. knows quite well from an earlier study he was involved with that vaccines containing thimerosal can indeed cause neurological damage in babies. Perhaps Mr Lazarus should double check these studies.

 

 

 

 

http://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/00mmdd_EISAbstractSubmission_IncreasedRiskOfDevelopmentalNeurologicImpairmentAfterHighExposureToThimerosal-containingVaccine_.pdf

 

ETA: the above abstract was obtained via FOIA from the CDC. 


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#304 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 12:09 PM
 
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The more recent study is available only to subscribers, and the abstract isn't very informative. So let's look at the older one.

 

I continue to wonder, Mirzam, why you cite material without reading it, despite the secondary source you used last time flat-out misstating the data in the original paper. I seem to recall your agreeing you hadn’t read the original paper, even though the full text was available at no cost through Google search. In this case, you are citing a preliminary report. You missed (or, rather, your sources missed, and probably on purpose) all of the follow-on studies, which involved obtaining more HMO raw data. You know what happened, when that study was finished, don't you? The same authors concluded there was no evidence of a thimerosal-autism link. Abstract.

 

Out of 110 studies, you'd expect 5 to show completely spurious correlations at p<0.5 significance.

 

Instead of posting more studies that you cull from unreliable sources, why don't you take a few of Teacozy's that tend to show no connection and tell us where their flaws are, without assuming the conclusion? We already know where are the "flaws" of the Honda-Rutter study of autism in Yokohama after the end of MMR Administration. They "forgot" to add in a surge in MMR use in a much smaller city 8 hours by road away, but, as Taximom helpfully explained, it is only 2½ hours by bullet train, and that explains everything—although I just don't see it.

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#305 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 12:20 PM
 
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I continue to wonder, Mirzam, why you cite material without reading it, despite the secondary source you used last time flat-out misstating the data in the original paper.

The very first study tea linked (nothing personal, tea) in her multi-link post was abstract only. I doubt she read the full study unless she paid for it or has some sort of work related access.  

 

You seem to continually call out Mizram, it seems borderline personal and it is getting old. 

 

Perhaps all those PVers who got so annoyed we were discussing Dorit Reiss of all people on INV could tell AL to knock it off?  I wait with baited breath.

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#306 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 12:22 PM
 
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Because in the previous case, it was obvious that Mirzam hadn't read the paper's own abstract either.

 

As for calling someone out, I don't have access from home to many of these papers, so I too just read the abstract. But I can't imagine not doing that. Some posters seem self-taught in research methodology; maybe I should leave it at that.

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#307 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 12:24 PM
 
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Because the rates of autism did not differ between the immunized and non immunized younger sibling groups of children with autism.

 

 

But the younger siblings were labeled as "non-immunized" if even a single vaccine was delayed or declined.   Nearly 1/3 of the "non-immunized" younger siblings group received an autism diagnosis.  From the abstract, we don't know how many of them were fully immunized, how many had the birth dose of hep B vaccine, how many had mothers who were vaccinated with thimerosal-preserved Rhogam, or...well, anything else.
 
And you want to leap to the conclusion that that proves no link between vaccines and autism?
 
How very unscientific.
 
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#308 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 12:24 PM
 
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The very first study tea linked (nothing personal, tea) in her multi-link post was abstract only. I doubt she read the full study unless she paid for it or has some sort of work related access.  

 

You seem to continually call out Mizram, it seems borderline personal and it is getting old. 

 

Perhaps all those PVers who got so annoyed we were discussing Dorit Reiss of all people on INV could tell AL to knock it off?  I wait with baited breath.

 

No.  Andrew Lazarus is not attacking Mirzam's parenting or her personality.  And, it's in the debate section, which is the appropriate place for "big-girl panties" (sorry, Andrew).


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#309 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 12:24 PM
 
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The more recent study is available only to subscribers, and the abstract isn't very informative. So let's look at the older one.

 

I continue to wonder, Mirzam, why you cite material without reading it, despite the secondary source you used last time flat-out misstating the data in the original paper. I seem to recall your agreeing you hadn’t read the original paper, even though the full text was available at no cost through Google search. In this case, you are citing a preliminary report. You missed (or, rather, your sources missed, and probably on purpose) all of the follow-on studies, which involved obtaining more HMO raw data. You know what happened, when that study was finished, don't you? The same authors concluded there was no evidence of a thimerosal-autism link. Abstract.

 

Out of 110 studies, you'd expect 5 to show completely spurious correlations at p<0.5 significance.

 

Instead of posting more studies that you cull from unreliable sources, why don't you take a few of Teacozy's that tend to show no connection and tell us where their flaws are, without assuming the conclusion? We already know where are the "flaws" of the Honda-Rutter study of autism in Yokohama after the end of MMR Administration. They "forgot" to add in a surge in MMR use in a much smaller city 8 hours by road away, but, as Taximom helpfully explained, it is only 2½ hours by bullet train, and that explains everything—although I just don't see it.

 

Yes, I know what the end result of the the study was, it was so manipulated that it became a bunch of lies. I am not going to waste my time googling garbage. I am very grateful for people like Brian Hooker PhD, who have the dedication to call out the CDC liars and to re-analyze these bs studies from the CDC. For those that are seeking the truth, this interview with Dr Hooker is highly illuminating.

 

Safeminds article on the above abstract and the Simpsonwood transcripts: http://www.safeminds.org/blog/2014/01/23/new-disclosures-vaccine-safety-datalink-vsd/

 

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#310 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 01:16 PM
 
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Yes, I know what the end result of the the study was, it was so manipulated that it became a bunch of lies. I am not going to waste my time googling garbage. 

Glad to see you go wherever the evidence takes you!

 

I do spend time googling garbage. Learning good arguments and good data from bad arguments and bad data is instructive. In fact, when I was teaching, I had a wonderful time in an introduction to proofs class where many of the exercises were to determine a good proof of a true conclusion, a bogus proof of a true conclusion, or a claimed, but inevitably wrong, proof of a false result. But this helps explain upvoting a "correction" of the Honda-Rutter study that involves MMR buying a train ticket, on the extra-charge express yet, and spreading autism almost 400 miles up the tracks.

 

There's a significant asymmetry in how we acquire information.

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#311 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 04:14 PM
 
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Glad to see you go wherever the evidence takes you!

 

I do spend time googling garbage. Learning good arguments and good data from bad arguments and bad data is instructive. In fact, when I was teaching, I had a wonderful time in an introduction to proofs class where many of the exercises were to determine a good proof of a true conclusion, a bogus proof of a true conclusion, or a claimed, but inevitably wrong, proof of a false result. But this helps explain upvoting a "correction" of the Honda-Rutter study that involves MMR buying a train ticket, on the extra-charge express yet, and spreading autism almost 400 miles up the tracks.

 

There's a significant asymmetry in how we acquire information.

 

You entirely misunderstood the statement about the bullet train.  You said that Yokohama was 8 hours away; I corrected you.  No need to leap to unreasonable conclusions.  If there's something you don't understand, ask nicely, and someone will explain.  

 

In fact, the link I posted explained very clearly:
"Further, the Nakatani paper indicates this similarity in the data is unlikely to be coincidence.  The Nakatani paper shows the national vaccination rates in Japan. These are closely similar in profile to that shown for Kurashiki City.  It is also reasonable to expect that the national vaccination rates would be similar for Kohoku Ward (data in the Honda/Rutter paper)."

If you have proof that the vaccine rates in Yokohama were significantly different, please do post such proof.  

 

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#312 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 04:55 PM
 
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We seem to agree that there is no reason to relate Kurashiki City to Yokohama, without an independent reason to believe they have similar rates, whether we measure the distance by road (eight hours) or train (two and a half). Of course, it makes even more sense to use the Yokohama data itself, but that data strongly suggest that MMR is not related to autism. (Of course, some one component might be: we are looking here at the replacement of MMR with individual vaccines, but still vaccines.) From the Honda-Rutter paper.

Quote:
 According to Yokohama statistics, MMR vaccination rates declined from 69.8% in the 1988 birth cohort, to 42.9%, 33.6%, 24.0%, and a mere 1.8% in birth cohorts 1989 to 1992.

Autism diagnoses continued to rise.

Meanwhile, over in Kurashiki, this is what the abstract says

Quote:
The Japanese surveillance showed the numbers of measles patient in Okayama to be a few times higher than the mean number nationwide. The number of persons vaccinated was approximately 2,000-3,000 per year, while the number of births was about 6,000 per year.

So before the experiment, 50% coverage tops. After…

Quote:
 After passing a revised vaccination law in 1994, the number of vaccinations increased to more than 4,000, and the epidemic situation decreased to the nationwide level. 

This isn't surprising, because the claim that Kurashiki was similar to the national average is false. Just going from your own link, nationwide coverage for measles was 65% or (usually) higher every year, not 50% and lower. (Look for Fig. 2 about halfway down the page, which I think is scanned from the Nakatani paper.) That is, the entire subject of the Terada paper is the campaign to get Kurashiki to conform to the national profile. The attempt to claim it is typical is countered by the text itself.

 

The graph you link is dishonest. The increase in autism in Yokohama is almost certainly driven by whatever is driving increased diagnoses in autism throughout the developed world. The Kurashiki data placed behind it is a unique one-off. (It would also be enlightening to examine any increase in autism in Kurashiki to see if it rose faster than in places where vaccine coverage was constant throughout the time period.)

 

[ADDED: According to the Terada paper, the death rate for measles in Japan is 1 in every 2000 cases.]

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#313 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 07:42 PM
 
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We seem to agree that there is no reason to relate Kurashiki City to Yokohama, without an independent reason to believe they have similar rates, whether we measure the distance by road (eight hours) or train (two and a half). Of course, it makes even more sense to use the Yokohama data itself, but that data strongly suggest that MMR is not related to autism. (Of course, some one component might be: we are looking here at the replacement of MMR with individual vaccines, but still vaccines.) From the Honda-Rutter paper.

Quote:

 According to Yokohama statistics, MMR vaccination rates declined from 69.8% in the 1988 birth cohort, to 42.9%, 33.6%, 24.0%, and a mere 1.8% in birth cohorts 1989 to 1992.

Autism diagnoses continued to rise.

 

Please tell us what vaccines were given in the 1988 birth cohort, and what vaccines were given in the 1989-1992 birth cohort? Remember, children who weren't given the MMR were given separate measles and rubella vaccines--which, unlike the MMR, were preserved with thimerosal, as was the Japanese Encephalitis vaccine (given in 3 separate doses).

So how does this rule out a link between vaccines and autism?

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#314 of 466 Old 04-08-2014, 08:04 PM
 
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What is ruled out is a connection between the combined MMR vaccine and autism. I agree, you can't rule out all vaccines from these data, nor from adding in the Kurashiki data which appears to be measles only.

 

Now, what I would do in your shoes is throw away the Terada paper and Kurashiki, and work from the Nakatani paper and the Honda paper. Figure 2 of the Nakatani paper, which I found online, is the starting point for vaccine coverage nationwide in Japan, for all types of vaccinations. Unfortunately, it is almost illegible, and the supporting data, to copy into a decent charting program, must be only in the full paper, which I did not find, and which may be in Japanese even if I do. Most vaccine coverage was flat to 1995 (or is it 1994?!) when the law changed, and there was a big jump in several vaccines, and then flat again. That wouldn’t match an ongoing continual increase in autism diagnoses very well, but maybe one can find longer term autism numbers than Honda, and see what sort of correlation there is. (Doesn't prove causation, but if you don't even have correlation…) Honda was basically interested in one thing: what happened at the time of the withdrawal of the MMR combo with autism. I think that's typical of a quite short paper. (The MMR combo was withdrawn because of significant and unnecessary side effects with the mumps portion: science seems able to recognize problems with vaccines, at least some of the time.)

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What is ruled out is a connection between the combined MMR vaccine and autism. I agree, you can't rule out all vaccines from these data, nor from adding in the Kurashiki data which appears to be measles only.

 

Now, what I would do in your shoes is throw away the Terada paper and Kurashiki, and work from the Nakatani paper and the Honda paper. Figure 2 of the Nakatani paper, which I found online, is the starting point for vaccine coverage nationwide in Japan, for all types of vaccinations. Unfortunately, it is almost illegible, and the supporting data, to copy into a decent charting program, must be only in the full paper, which I did not find, and which may be in Japanese even if I do. Most vaccine coverage was flat to 1995 (or is it 1994?!) when the law changed, and there was a big jump in several vaccines, and then flat again. That wouldn’t match an ongoing continual increase in autism diagnoses very well, but maybe one can find longer term autism numbers than Honda, and see what sort of correlation there is. (Doesn't prove causation, but if you don't even have correlation…) Honda was basically interested in one thing: what happened at the time of the withdrawal of the MMR combo with autism. I think that's typical of a quite short paper. (The MMR combo was withdrawn because of significant and unnecessary side effects with the mumps portion: science seems able to recognize problems with vaccines, at least some of the time.)

 

Thank you for the advice here.  I do appreciate it, and I'm not being sarcastic.

I'm not throwing anything away, because there is too much we don't know.

We can't rule out a connection between the combined MMR and autism, because there is too much we don't know.

 

Yes, we can say that the combined MMR by itself doesn't cause autism in all children, or even in the vast majority of children.  But that doesn't mean that we can rule it out in one or more specific subgroups.  For example, we don't know whether the combined MMR by itself causes autism in children of mothers with undiagnosed celiac disease, or in children with predisposition for seizure disorder, or in children with predisposition to autoimmune disease.  

And we can't say anything at all about MMR either in combination with other vaccines, or given at 12 months after a specific set of, say, 20 vaccines had already been given, starting at 4 hours old, and continuing in different combinations until the last 7 of the 20 are given WITH the MMR, as per the 2004 schedule (which is a significantly higher number of vaccines than that in the Japanese studies--but we really don't know about the MMR in combination with those vaccines, either).


We don't know.  That means a vaccine/autism link has not been ruled out.  It means WE DON'T KNOW.

Unfortunately, it's all too easy to set up a study that appears to rule out a link between 2 events, even when such a link exists.

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#316 of 466 Old 04-09-2014, 11:29 AM
 
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science seems able to recognize problems with vaccines, at least some of the time.)

 

Does Science need glasses?

 

Not to be Captain Obvious but this is a pet peeve...

 

Science isn't a person.  It doesn't do anything.

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#317 of 466 Old 04-09-2014, 06:55 PM
 
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Thank you for the advice here.  I do appreciate it, and I'm not being sarcastic.

I'm not throwing anything away, because there is too much we don't know.

We can't rule out a connection between the combined MMR and autism, because there is too much we don't know.

 

Yes, we can say that the combined MMR by itself doesn't cause autism in all children, or even in the vast majority of children.  But that doesn't mean that we can rule it out in one or more specific subgroups.  For example, we don't know whether the combined MMR by itself causes autism in children of mothers with undiagnosed celiac disease, or in children with predisposition for seizure disorder, or in children with predisposition to autoimmune disease.  

And we can't say anything at all about MMR either in combination with other vaccines, or given at 12 months after a specific set of, say, 20 vaccines had already been given, starting at 4 hours old, and continuing in different combinations until the last 7 of the 20 are given WITH the MMR, as per the 2004 schedule (which is a significantly higher number of vaccines than that in the Japanese studies--but we really don't know about the MMR in combination with those vaccines, either).


We don't know.  That means a vaccine/autism link has not been ruled out.  It means WE DON'T KNOW.

Unfortunately, it's all too easy to set up a study that appears to rule out a link between 2 events, even when such a link exists.


First time poster!  I've been hearing about this vacc debate for many years so I just wanted to wade in a little and ask a couple questions.

 

To Taximom5, what would you say would be sufficient enough evidence that would at least overturn your view that the MMR vaccine is linked to autism?

 

Also, what other vaccines given in combo with MMR do you feel may contribute to autism?

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First time poster!  I've been hearing about this vacc debate for many years so I just wanted to wade in a little and ask a couple questions.

To Taximom5, what would you say would be sufficient enough evidence that would at least overturn your view that the MMR vaccine is linked to autism?

Also, what other vaccines given in combo with MMR do you feel may contribute to autism?

That's like asking what would be sufficient evidence that smoking is not linked to lung cancer, which is what the tobacco companies are still insisting.

We already know that there is a link for a small subgroup. "It can be argued that ASD with regression, in which children usually lose developmental skills during the second year of life, could be related to exposures in infancy, including vaccines." http://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(13)00144-3/fulltext which is actually a very flawed study, as it compares 2 groups of fully-vaccinated kids, one group having a high percentage of kids with symptoms of autism, the other having a high percentage of kids with...autism. But still, even they admit that regressive autism can be triggered by vaccines.

So why, exactly, would you want to convince someone that there's no link?
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#319 of 466 Old 04-09-2014, 09:07 PM
 
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That's like asking what would be sufficient evidence that smoking is not linked to lung cancer, which is what the tobacco companies are still insisting.

We already know that there is a link for a small subgroup. "It can be argued that ASD with regression, in which children usually lose developmental skills during the second year of life, could be related to exposures in infancy, including vaccines." http://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(13)00144-3/fulltext which is actually a very flawed study, as it compares 2 groups of fully-vaccinated kids, one group having a high percentage of kids with symptoms of autism, the other having a high percentage of kids with...autism. But still, even they admit that regressive autism can be triggered by vaccines.

So why, exactly, would you want to convince someone that there's no link?

 

I sort of get what you're saying but the paper says "We found no evidence indicating an association between exposure to antibody-stimulating proteins and polysaccharides contained in vaccines during the first 2 years of life and the risk of acquiring ASD, AD, or ASD with regression"

 

 Would you agree the majority of people who take vaccines don't necessarily experience apparent adverse symptoms (to my knowledge), unlike smoking?

 

Do vaccines have any use/benefit?

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I sort of get what you're saying but the paper says "We found no evidence indicating an association between exposure to antibody-stimulating proteins and polysaccharides contained in vaccines during the first 2 years of life and the risk of acquiring ASD, AD, or ASD with regression"

 Would you agree the majority of people who take vaccines don't necessarily experience apparent adverse symptoms (to my knowledge), unlike smoking?

Do vaccines have any use/benefit?

The paper says "we found no evidence..." because it was set up to find no evidence. If you start with two groups of fully vaccinated children with autism symptoms, you're not going to find evidence of anything just because you give one group a diagnosis of autism.

We don't know how many people experience adverse symptoms as a result of vaccination. Long-term effects, such as vaccine-induced autoimmunity, are not tracked.

The majority of smokers don't necessarily experience adverse symptoms within a few weeks of smoking their first cigarette, or even within a few years of heavy smoking.

There are, surprisingly, studies showing some health benefits to smoking. Perhaps you'd like children to be given tobacco as well as vaccines, against their parents' wishes?
http://www.livescience.com/15115-5-health-benefits-smoking-disease.html

You might like to read this article http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2012/january/tobacco-0123.html ; it's amazing how obvious the political similarities are with vaccination.
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#321 of 466 Old 04-10-2014, 07:36 AM
 
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That's like asking what would be sufficient evidence that smoking is not linked to lung cancer, which is what the tobacco companies are still insisting.

We already know that there is a link for a small subgroup. "It can be argued that ASD with regression, in which children usually lose developmental skills during the second year of life, could be related to exposures in infancy, including vaccines." http://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(13)00144-3/fulltext which is actually a very flawed study, as it compares 2 groups of fully-vaccinated kids, one group having a high percentage of kids with symptoms of autism, the other having a high percentage of kids with...autism. But still, even they admit that regressive autism can be triggered by vaccines.

So why, exactly, would you want to convince someone that there's no link?

I think you are misreading the bolded (by me) sentence. I read it as equivalent to "Other people are arguing that ASD…", i.e., that people such as yourself do so. I don't see an acknowledgment by the authors that they found any evidence for the hypothesis, or that they believe it themselves.

 

As far as smoking—do you wish to argue on those lines? Even if there are health benefits to smoking (color me dubious, but let that pass), we know that they are minor relative to the deleterious effects, including the negative effects of secondhand smoke on public health. Even if there are health benefits to non-vaccination, given the mortality rate pre-vaccine, they seem minor relative to the deleterious effects, including the negative effect of increased contact of ill or carrier individuals with the susceptible population (e.g., babies, cancer patients).

 

Large German study fails to find evidence of better health in the non-immunized. Only significant difference is non-vaccinated get more vaccine-preventable diseases! (Don't Germans have apple cider vinegar?) Admittedly, if we are looking for a 30-years-on effect for a 10-y.o. vaccine, we won't find it.

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#322 of 466 Old 04-10-2014, 08:26 AM
 
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http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

 

But measles is deadly and there is a need for treatment.  Would you agree that this is where a vaccine comes in?

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The paper says "we found no evidence..." because it was set up to find no evidence. If you start with two groups of fully vaccinated children with autism symptoms, you're not going to find evidence of anything just because you give one group a diagnosis of autism.

We don't know how many people experience adverse symptoms as a result of vaccination. Long-term effects, such as vaccine-induced autoimmunity, are not tracked.

The majority of smokers don't necessarily experience adverse symptoms within a few weeks of smoking their first cigarette, or even within a few years of heavy smoking.

There are, surprisingly, studies showing some health benefits to smoking. Perhaps you'd like children to be given tobacco as well as vaccines, against their parents' wishes?
http://www.livescience.com/15115-5-health-benefits-smoking-disease.html

You might like to read this article http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2012/january/tobacco-0123.html ; it's amazing how obvious the political similarities are with vaccination.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

 

But measles is deadly and there is a need for treatment.  Would you agree that this is where a vaccine comes in?

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#323 of 466 Old 04-10-2014, 08:55 AM
 
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http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

 

But measles is deadly and there is a need for treatment.  Would you agree that this is where a vaccine comes in?

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

 

But measles is deadly and there is a need for treatment.  Would you agree that this is where a vaccine comes in?

No.  A vaccine for measles is not a treatment for measles.  

 

Measles is not a deadly disease for healthy, well-nourished children living in developed countries.   It may very well be deadly for children with certain underlying medical conditions--but so are vaccines.  


Interestingly, it looks like vitamin A deficiency may be responsible for a large number of complications from both measles and MMR vaccine, but I don't see vaccine defenders showing the slightest interest in this non-invasive possibility to reduce complications.

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#324 of 466 Old 04-10-2014, 09:24 AM
 
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No.  A vaccine for measles is not a treatment for measles.  

 

Measles is not a deadly disease for healthy, well-nourished children living in developed countries.   It may very well be deadly for children with certain underlying medical conditions--but so are vaccines.  


Interestingly, it looks like vitamin A deficiency may be responsible for a large number of complications from both measles and MMR vaccine, but I don't see vaccine defenders showing the slightest interest in this non-invasive possibility to reduce complications.

 

Evidence please that healthy children living in developed countries can't die from measles? 

 

I'm sure Max's parents would love to hear how their son who got measles at 6 months old who then died from SSPE was malnourished and unhealthy.  

 

This is him at 11 years old

 

 

This was him at 18 years old in 2012. He has since died. 

 


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#325 of 466 Old 04-10-2014, 09:39 AM
 
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No.  A vaccine for measles is not a treatment for measles.  

 

Measles is not a deadly disease for healthy, well-nourished children living in developed countries.   It may very well be deadly for children with certain underlying medical conditions--but so are vaccines.  


Interestingly, it looks like vitamin A deficiency may be responsible for a large number of complications from both measles and MMR vaccine, but I don't see vaccine defenders showing the slightest interest in this non-invasive possibility to reduce complications.

 

Sorry I meant treatment as in prevention

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#326 of 466 Old 04-10-2014, 10:29 AM
 
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I don't agree with putting up photos of other people's children for debate purposes. JMO

These sad and unfortunate stories are on both sides.

 

But make no mistake:  Every life matters.  

 

Children who have been injured or died as a result of vaccines matter just as much as those who suffered or died from disease.

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#327 of 466 Old 04-10-2014, 10:36 AM
 
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I don't agree with putting up photos of other people's children for debate purposes. JMO

These sad and unfortunate stories are on both sides.

 

But make no mistake:  Every life matters.  

 

Children who have been injured or died as a result of vaccines matter just as much as those who suffered or died from disease.

 

His parents want to spread awareness and have even founded an association. 

 

http://www.vaccinestoday.eu/vaccines/how-measles-can-change-a-life/

 

Theres a link to the story. 


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#328 of 466 Old 04-10-2014, 10:38 AM
 
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Evidence please that healthy children living in developed countries can't die from measles? 

 

I'm sure Max's parents would love to hear how their son who got measles at 6 months old who then died from SSPE was malnourished and unhealthy.  


Evidence, please, that children in developed countries who have complications from measles do not have underlying medical and nutritional issues?


And if you want information on the deadly damage vaccines can do:  http://www.iansvoice.org, and http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/Hepatitis-B/fatherstory.aspx.  Read FaceBook posts and view pictures:  https://www.facebook.com/pages/My-childs-vaccine-reaction/372638272814622
 Oh, and check out the 2000+ cases of vaccine-induced brain damage, compensated by the US government. 

 

Look, we can trade pictures all day of children who appeared healthy and well-nourished who had either severe complications from disease, or who had just-as-severe complications from the vaccine that was supposed to protect them from disease.  But at the end of the day, we know that in both groups of children, there were pre-existing conditions that prevented the child's immune system from functioning as expected.  This doesn't mean that Max's parents starved him to death, or that he was overtly unhealthy.  I didn't say that, and you should not imply that I did.  We KNOW that vitamin deficiencies affect response to both disease and vaccines.  We know that there are other possibilities, such as latent autoimmune issues, undiagnosed celiac disease, and even concurrent infections.  The point is, though, that perhaps the expectations that children have no long-term damage from vaccines has already been shot down.  We're learning more and more about severe adverse reactions that used to be thought impossible, but now we know that happen, and sometimes we even know why.

 

So, let's not get trapped into melodramatically posting pictures of damage.  Let's put that energy into productive use, and call for safer vaccines, or even safer alternatives to vaccines, neither of which will happen until enough people recognize the damage that has already been done.  If you want people to vaccinate, you have to convince us that the problems we're reporting will be addressed.  Denying that they happen isn't going to convince anyone who known a family with a vaccine-injured child, and wow, there are more and more and more of them...

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#329 of 466 Old 04-10-2014, 10:39 AM
 
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Children who have been injured or died as a result of vaccines matter just as much as those who suffered or died from disease.

 

No argument there. 


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#330 of 466 Old 04-10-2014, 10:44 AM
 
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Taximom, your exact words were "Measles is not a deadly disease for healthy, well-nourished children living in developed countries. " 

 

Where is your evidence to back that claim up? 

 

Completely healthy children do die from measles.  Deaths from SSPE, pneumonia, encephalitis do not only occur in poor unhealthy children. 

 

Absolutely NO ONE can make the statement that their child would be fine if they got measles.   I don't care how healthy they are. 


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