Trying to get accurate info on Syrian Polio outbreak. - Mothering Forums

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Old 12-16-2013, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I posted this in the "debate" forum because I'm hoping to get accurate info on the Syrian Polio outbreak. Last I read, there were 22 cases, but today I was told that 17 children have been paralyzed. That seems like a really high percentage considering the size of the outbreak. Does anyone have up-to-date info? I went to the WHO website, but it hasn't been recently updated. Thanks. 

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Old 12-17-2013, 09:39 AM
 
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The most recent update I've seen was from the end of November.

 

Here is a link to the November report: http://www.promedmail.org/direct.php?id=20131128.2078961

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Old 12-17-2013, 01:42 PM
 
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Old 12-17-2013, 02:09 PM
 
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I don't know how accurate the reports are, that much paralysis sounds really high! It takes months or a year for the original symptoms and inflammation of Polio to calm and at least a year to know if a child will be paralyzed. (My dad had Polio in the 1940s, absolutely no paralysis, no iron lung, no lasting effects, but was in bed for around 6 months so our family is quite familiar with it.) Of course in the majority of cases, Polio presents as a really bad upper respiratory infection (it's how my dad's and everybody elses in the 1930s and 40s started)  and never goes beyond a respiratory infection so MANY cases go undiagnosed.

 

Also, these camps are not clean, people are packed in together and human waste is flowing through the streets, AND SO they use Oral Polio Vaccine which is ALIVE and is excreted in the stool for up to 6 months after vaccination! Using LIVE polio vaccine will only INCREASE polio rates in the area because anyone who is exposed to the stool of children who are getting the vaccine are being exposed to LIVE POLIO. Why would they do this? A ploy to "show how dangerous it is not to be vaccinated?" Sounds like the intentional exacerbation of events. Maybe, maybe the first few cases were wild Polio, but any Polio seen after these kids get LIVE ORAL Polio vaccine is caused by the people administering this stuff, thus iatrogenic.

 

Frustrating as heck to use human lives for political gain. The smart thing to do would be to use the INJECTED Polio vaccine, which is a killed vaccine and cannot be transferred in stool or any other bodily fluid and cause more Polio.

 

Info on % of cases result in permanent paralysis: about 1%. It's medically impossible to have 20 cases of Polio and 17 of them resulting in permanent paralysis.

 

Poliovirus is an enterovirus. Infection occurs via the fecal–oral route, meaning that one ingests the virus and viral replication occurs in the alimentary tract. Virus is shed in the feces of infected individuals. In 95% of cases only a primary, transient presence of viremia (virus in the bloodstream) occurs, and the poliovirus infection is asymptomatic. In about 5% of cases, the virus spreads and replicates in other sites such as brown fat, reticuloendothelial tissue, and muscle. The sustained viral replication causes secondary viremia and leads to the development of minor symptoms such as fever, headache and sore throat.Paralytic poliomyelitis occurs in less than 1% of poliovirus infections. Paralytic disease occurs when the virus enters the central nervous system (CNS) and replicates in motor neurons within the spinal cord, brain stem, or motor cortex, resulting in the selective destruction of motor neurons leading to temporary or permanent paralysis. In rare cases, paralytic poliomyelitis leads to respiratory arrest and death.weakness and paralysis. Paralysis typically persists anywhere from days to weeks prior to recovery. Reference:

  1. Bodian D and Horstmann DH (1969). Polioviruse. Philadelphia, Penn: Lippincott. pp. 430–73.
  2. Jump up ^ Sabin A (1956). "Pathogenesis of poliomyelitis; reappraisal in the light of new data". Science 123 (3209): 1151–7. doi:10.1126/science.123.3209.1151. PMID 13337331.
  3. Jump up ^ http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/306440-overview
  4. Jump up ^ http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/967950-overview

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Old 12-17-2013, 03:35 PM
 
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Looking into this a little more.  Reports of acute flaccid paralysis are used as a surveillance tool to identify polio outbreaks, but there are other diseases/conditions that cause it as well.  It looks like there was an outbreak of AFP in Syria - 22 reported cases.  They tested the afflicted people and 17 of them were carriers of wild poliovirus type I.  Considering AFP is rare - 1% of polio cases, it seems like we can estimate that actual polio prevalence is higher.  :( 

 

Does that make sense?  The numbers that we have are reporting paralysis, not polio.

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Old 12-17-2013, 04:51 PM
 
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I don't know how accurate the reports are, that much paralysis sounds really high! It takes months or a year for the original symptoms and inflammation of Polio to calm and at least a year to know if a child will be paralyzed. (My dad had Polio in the 1940s, absolutely no paralysis, no iron lung, no lasting effects, but was in bed for around 6 months so our family is quite familiar with it.) Of course in the majority of cases, Polio presents as a really bad upper respiratory infection (it's how my dad's and everybody elses in the 1930s and 40s started)  and never goes beyond a respiratory infection so MANY cases go undiagnosed.

 

Also, these camps are not clean, people are packed in together and human waste is flowing through the streets, AND SO they use Oral Polio Vaccine which is ALIVE and is excreted in the stool for up to 6 months after vaccination! Using LIVE polio vaccine will only INCREASE polio rates in the area because anyone who is exposed to the stool of children who are getting the vaccine are being exposed to LIVE POLIO. Why would they do this? A ploy to "show how dangerous it is not to be vaccinated?" Sounds like the intentional exacerbation of events. Maybe, maybe the first few cases were wild Polio, but any Polio seen after these kids get LIVE ORAL Polio vaccine is caused by the people administering this stuff, thus iatrogenic.

 

Frustrating as heck to use human lives for political gain. The smart thing to do would be to use the INJECTED Polio vaccine, which is a killed vaccine and cannot be transferred in stool or any other bodily fluid and cause more Polio.

 

Info on % of cases result in permanent paralysis: about 1%. It's medically impossible to have 20 cases of Polio and 17 of them resulting in permanent paralysis.

 

Poliovirus is an enterovirus. Infection occurs via the fecal–oral route, meaning that one ingests the virus and viral replication occurs in the alimentary tract. Virus is shed in the feces of infected individuals. In 95% of cases only a primary, transient presence of viremia (virus in the bloodstream) occurs, and the poliovirus infection is asymptomatic. In about 5% of cases, the virus spreads and replicates in other sites such as brown fat, reticuloendothelial tissue, and muscle. The sustained viral replication causes secondary viremia and leads to the development of minor symptoms such as fever, headache and sore throat.Paralytic poliomyelitis occurs in less than 1% of poliovirus infections. Paralytic disease occurs when the virus enters the central nervous system (CNS) and replicates in motor neurons within the spinal cord, brain stem, or motor cortex, resulting in the selective destruction of motor neurons leading to temporary or permanent paralysis. In rare cases, paralytic poliomyelitis leads to respiratory arrest and death.weakness and paralysis. Paralysis typically persists anywhere from days to weeks prior to recovery. Reference:

  1. Bodian D and Horstmann DH (1969). Polioviruse. Philadelphia, Penn: Lippincott. pp. 430–73.
  2. Jump up ^ Sabin A (1956). "Pathogenesis of poliomyelitis; reappraisal in the light of new data". Science 123 (3209): 1151–7. doi:10.1126/science.123.3209.1151. PMID 13337331.
  3. Jump up ^ http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/306440-overview
  4. Jump up ^ http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/967950-overview

 

Are you seriously accusing the WHO of deliberately infecting people with polio as part of some type of PR campaign?  Because that's what it sounds like, and that is seriously nuts.  

 

FYI, the oral vaccine is the vaccine of choice in an active outbreak, specifically because of the fecal-oral route of transmission.  People are more likely to acquire immunity via passive exposure to the vaccine-type virus and because the OPV is much, much more effective and provides life-long immunity.

 

You might want to read up on the difference between and live virus and a live attenuated virus before you go accusing health care workers who are risking their lives by entering a war-torn country of deliberately infecting children with a deadly disease.

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Old 12-17-2013, 05:27 PM
 
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Read the information. Polio Is milld disease 99 per cent of the time. People with low immunity have been known to GET Polio and die from coming in contact with the feces of pp who have been recently given the orall vaccine.

Do you think biological warfare is not being practiced? I justentioned thar it was a possibility that giving the ORAL vaccine when the injectable is safer sounds suspect.

I form my own opinions and I don't appreciate being insulted and called crazy.

Please read the rules on MDC.

Thank you.

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Old 12-17-2013, 05:56 PM
 
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Read the information. Polio Is milld disease 99 per cent of the time. People with low immunity have been known to GET Polio and die from coming in contact with the feces of pp who have been recently given the orall vaccine.

Do you think biological warfare is not being practiced? I justentioned thar it was a possibility that giving the ORAL vaccine when the injectable is safer sounds suspect.

I form my own opinions and I don't appreciate being insulted and called crazy.

Please read the rules on MDC.

Thank you.

 

Well, you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.  OPV is the correct vaccine to use in an outbreak situation.

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Old 12-17-2013, 07:42 PM
 
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Also, I'd like to see your evidence that all the cases of polio since the initial one were iatrogenic.  You seem very definite on that point.

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Old 12-17-2013, 07:54 PM
 
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I said it was possible since once LIVE Polio is introduced into an area many of the cases may just well be iatrogenic since LIVE POLIO is contagious

Can you prove that the oral form MUST be used in an "outbreak?"

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Old 12-18-2013, 05:15 AM
 
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I said it was possible since once LIVE Polio is introduced into an area many of the cases may just well be iatrogenic since LIVE POLIO is contagious

Can you prove that the oral form MUST be used in an "outbreak?"

 

Actually, you said, and I quote, "Maybe, maybe the first few cases were wild Polio, but any Polio seen after these kids get LIVE ORAL Polio vaccine is caused by the people administering this stuff, thus iatrogenic."

 

You didn't say it was possible.  You said it was a fact.  Words matter.

 

"Prove" the oral form must be used?  Well, no more than I can "prove" that you use ciprofloxacin to treat pseudomonas rather than cephalexin.  There a right way to do things and a wrong way.

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Old 12-18-2013, 05:49 AM
 
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I stated an opinion. Don't put words in my mouth. I never used the word "fact. "

Ok I see how it is. YOU say something therefore everyone should simply believe you without question. You one of those people who think there is only ONE right way to do everything? No thanks that's the reason I gave up discussing anything with pp like my conservative FIL 15 years before he died. He was never wrong in his own mind and to him there was only "a right way or a wrong way" to do everything. Good luck with that view.
W
Conversation over. I don't discusd things with people who don't even consider the possibility they could be wrong but DEMAND PROOF for the things other pp say.

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Old 12-18-2013, 06:18 AM
 
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I'm not putting words into your mouth!  You said, and again, I'll quote, "Maybe, maybe the first few cases were wild Polio, but any Polio seen after these kids get LIVE ORAL Polio vaccine is caused by the people administering this stuff, thus iatrogenic."

 

You said any polio seen after the vaccine IS CAUSED by the the people administering it.

 

Stand by your words or retract them, if that's not what you meant.  But don't tell me that I'm assigning a meaning to something that you said yourself.

 

As far as how to vaccinate during an outbreak, that's not my opinion. It's a fact.  And it's not because I say it- it's because that's how it's done.  Here, read it for yourself.  

 

http://www.polioeradication.org/Portals/0/Document/Resources/PolioEradicators/1a.PolioOutbreakGuideline20110107.pdf

 

Sometimes there is a right way to do things and a wrong way.  In the case of a polio outbreak, vaccination with the OPV is the right way.

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Old 12-18-2013, 08:50 AM
 
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Since we are talking about Polio I thought I'd share this 3 minute video that was recently published.  And sign the petition, if you can.  I know in the US there isn't any live polio but there are children that are suffering due to lack of vaccines in these war torn countries.  

 

 

And this one minute long video by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation called "Polio's last percent" 

 


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Old 12-18-2013, 09:10 AM
 
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Stand by your words or retract them, if that's not what you meant.  But don't tell me that I'm assigning a meaning to something that you said yourself.

 

As far as how to vaccinate during an outbreak, that's not my opinion. It's a fact.  And it's not because I say it- it's because that's how it's done.  Here, read it for yourself.  

 

http://www.polioeradication.org/Portals/0/Document/Resources/PolioEradicators/1a.PolioOutbreakGuideline20110107.pdf

 

Sometimes there is a right way to do things and a wrong way.  In the case of a polio outbreak, vaccination with the OPV is the right way.

Don't tell me what to do.

 

BLOCK!


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Old 12-18-2013, 09:25 AM
 
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So, I guess that means you have nothing to back up your accusation of health care workers deliberately infecting children with polio?

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Old 12-18-2013, 02:17 PM
 
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I don't know how accurate the reports are, that much paralysis sounds really high! It takes months or a year for the original symptoms and inflammation of Polio to calm and at least a year to know if a child will be paralyzed. (My dad had Polio in the 1940s, absolutely no paralysis, no iron lung, no lasting effects, but was in bed for around 6 months so our family is quite familiar with it.) Of course in the majority of cases, Polio presents as a really bad upper respiratory infection (it's how my dad's and everybody elses in the 1930s and 40s started)  and never goes beyond a respiratory infection so MANY cases go undiagnosed.

 

 

Where is anything said about already there being children with permanent paralysis? 

 

Quote:
 

Also, these camps are not clean, people are packed in together and human waste is flowing through the streets, AND SO they use Oral Polio Vaccine which is ALIVE and is excreted in the stool for up to 6 months after vaccination! Using LIVE polio vaccine will only INCREASE polio rates in the area because anyone who is exposed to the stool of children who are getting the vaccine are being exposed to LIVE POLIO. Why would they do this? A ploy to "show how dangerous it is not to be vaccinated?" Sounds like the intentional exacerbation of events. Maybe, maybe the first few cases were wild Polio, but any Polio seen after these kids get LIVE ORAL Polio vaccine is caused by the people administering this stuff, thus iatrogenic.

 

Frustrating as heck to use human lives for political gain. The smart thing to do would be to use the INJECTED Polio vaccine, which is a killed vaccine and cannot be transferred in stool or any other bodily fluid and cause more Polio.

 

No, it would not be a smart thing to use injected polio in an outbreak situation because injected polio is not nearly as good a oral at preventing the spread of wild polio.    If you are vaccinated with injected polio, it will almost certainly prevent you from being paralyzed or having symptoms if exposed to polio, but it might not keep you from getting, and if you do, you could excrete wild poilio and so infect others.  

 

Oral polio virus can cause paralysis, which is why it is not used in countries that are currently polio-free.  However, it is much, much, much less likely to cause paralysis than wild polio, which is why in place where wild polio is spreading, it is is not necessarily a bad thing for oral polio to spread a little bit a people who have oral polio virus (whether they were vaccinated with it directly or got it from someone who was vaccinated) are highly unlikely to suffer any negative effects from it and will afterwards have the benefit of not catching or spreading wild polio if they are exposed to it later.  

 

If oral polio is allowed to spread too far that can be a bad thing as if allowed to go through too many generations it can mutate into a more dangerous form of virus.  This is why in outbreaks it is important to vaccinate as many people will get either the original pure oral polio virus directly or from someone who was vaccinated so it doesn't have time to mutate thew way it could if it was passed from person to person through a long chain of people.  

 

Using the injected form of the vaccine in an outbreak would prevent many cases of paralysis and could slow the outbreak a little but will not stop the outbreak the way the oral vaccine can.

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Old 12-18-2013, 03:33 PM
 
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Poliobis far more than respiratory infection. It doesn't take a year for paralysis to appear. Yes, that many kids can get very ill at ones. This is why US had so many wards with iron lungs before mass vaccinations. There are always resurgence of preventable VPDs in time of war and other social upheavals because rates of vaccinations go down, sanitary and nutrition conditions also worsen. Syria has a perfect storm situation right now.
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Old 12-18-2013, 07:56 PM
 
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I posted this in the "debate" forum because I'm hoping to get accurate info on the Syrian Polio outbreak. Last I read, there were 22 cases, but today I was told that 17 children have been paralyzed. That seems like a really high percentage considering the size of the outbreak. Does anyone have up-to-date info? I went to the WHO website, but it hasn't been recently updated. Thanks. 

I would also love to know but have not heard any thing!

 

as I asked in the last thread on this - why isn't there any information (I had posted what I saw) or deep concern with a population that had very high numbers pre conflict and how the vaccine seems to not have worked (as expected??) now we are re-vaccinating most - I certainly understand break down in conflict but given the previous high numbers and the part I posted that even adults traveling to the area have to re-vaccinate, does this mean the vaccine (either one really) doesn't work as expected? Re-vaccination a concern? 


 

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Old 12-18-2013, 08:17 PM
 
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It looks like the next update is scheduled for December 26 so hopefully we'll get more information then.

 

As to why the vaccination campaign... Coverage has dropped significantly for one. It's something like 65% now. So we have a new population of susceptible individuals - mostly children - that warrant protecting.

 

Secondly, Syria had been polio-free since 1999. They had switched to the IPV. So the reason they want to revaccinate with OPV is for all the reasons pers talked about in her post. IPV is great for preventing disease in an individual, but not so great at preventing transmission. Given the living conditions in Syria right now, it's believable that the wild type polio could again become endemic. Reducing transmission will help avoid that.

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Old 12-19-2013, 04:11 PM
 
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Edited.

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edited. 

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Trollin at the highest level.


 
 
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:51 AM
 
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It looks like the next update is scheduled for December 26 so hopefully we'll get more information then.

 

As to why the vaccination campaign... Coverage has dropped significantly for one. It's something like 65% now. So we have a new population of susceptible individuals - mostly children - that warrant protecting.

 

Secondly, Syria had been polio-free since 1999. They had switched to the IPV. So the reason they want to revaccinate with OPV is for all the reasons pers talked about in her post. IPV is great for preventing disease in an individual, but not so great at preventing transmission. Given the living conditions in Syria right now, it's believable that the wild type polio could again become endemic. Reducing transmission will help avoid that.

actually that is not what I am really talking about - yes, coverage has dropped BUT if you re-vacanate the whole population,  those who have already been FULLY vaccinated and also require all those going into the country (as I had posted in the other threat this - http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/notices/alert/polio-syria ) - you (be it the CDC or WHO) is saying the vaccine (s) don't work - IF they did you would not re-vaccinate those who have been FULLY vacated and received the required dose…………..are we to be lead to believe should a infrastructure breakdown occurs here we must re-vaccanted for polio? 

 

Given the numbers of doses they plan (as of the last news I read) the numbers are not just for children that have been born since the "conflict" and have not been dosed  - this is a re-bolstering/re-vaccinating for the masses 

 

 

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/notices/alert/polio-syria

Because of the risk of cross-border transmission, CDC recommends a one-time booster dose of polio vaccine for fully vaccinated adults who are traveling to Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey to work in health care facilities, refugee camps, or other humanitarian aid settings.

 

in other words you are NOT fully vaccinated if you have to get a one-time booster 


 

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Old 12-22-2013, 02:07 PM
 
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actually that is not what I am really talking about - yes, coverage has dropped BUT if you re-vacanate the whole population,  those who have already been FULLY vaccinated and also require all those going into the country (as I had posted in the other threat this - http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/notices/alert/polio-syria ) - you (be it the CDC or WHO) is saying the vaccine (s) don't work - IF they did you would not re-vaccinate those who have been FULLY vacated and received the required dose…………..are we to be lead to believe should a infrastructure breakdown occurs here we must re-vaccanted for polio? 

 

I addressed this in the second part of my post.  There is a difference between IPV and OPV and the level of protection needed in a country that has eliminated endemic polio, which Syria had as of 1999, vs. the level of protection needed in a country where polio is endemic or in outbreak status, which Syria is as of a couple months ago.  WHO is saying that IPV provides very good individual-level protection, but not very good transmission-level protection.

 

I'm curious to know if you read pers post because I think she explained very well why OPV is being recommended for everyone in Syria.  I don't think I can do a better job. 

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Old 12-22-2013, 02:33 PM
 
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I addressed this in the second part of my post.  There is a difference between IPV and OPV and the level of protection needed in a country that has eliminated endemic polio, which Syria had as of 1999, vs. the level of protection needed in a country where polio is endemic or in outbreak status, which Syria is as of a couple months ago.  WHO is saying that IPV provides very good individual-level protection, but not very good transmission-level protection.

 

I'm curious to know if you read pers post because I think she explained very well why OPV is being recommended for everyone in Syria.  I don't think I can do a better job. 

bit snippy?

 

did you read my post?  

 

I'm well aware of the difference between IPV and OPV.

 

 

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/notices/alert/polio-syria

Because of the risk of cross-border transmission, CDC recommends a one-time booster dose of polio vaccine for fully vaccinated adults who are traveling to Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey to work in health care facilities, refugee camps, or other humanitarian aid settings.

 

in other words you are NOT fully vaccinated if you have to get a one-time booster 

 

FULLY vaccinated is a joke!:bgbounce …………there is no FULLY vaccinated!


 

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Old 12-22-2013, 02:47 PM
 
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How do you define fully vaccinated? Do you think it's the same way the CDC defines it?
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Old 12-22-2013, 03:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwill View Post

How do you define fully vaccinated? Do you think it's the same way the CDC defines it?

IF you (or your child) has received what is on the US schedule according to the CDC and WHO for the dose for the polio vaccine.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/VACCINES/vpd-vac/polio/default.htm

Children get 4 doses of IPV at these ages: 2 months, 4 months, 6-18 months, and a booster dose at 4-6 years. OPV has not been used in the United States since 2000 but is still used in many parts of the world.

 

If you (again or your child) have been vaccinated and in this country (US) there are many that have only had OVP, you travel to a country listed--- you re-booster. I know several that started with OVP and also got IVP because of the change date, my DD is one of them. 

 

So, there is no such thing as FULLY vaccinated and this should concern those here who vaccinate and feel they are protected, you are ONLY until they say you need to re-booster when FULLY vaccinated-----there is no such thing and FULLY vaccinated.

 

Just when does the ONE time only re-booster start in the US for everyone?


 

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Old 12-22-2013, 03:56 PM
 
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When polio comes back.


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Old 12-22-2013, 04:42 PM
 
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It's true that policies change given the prevalence of a disease. If you choose to consider that as meaning there is no such thing as fully vaccinated... well, OK.
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