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#61 of 81 Old 12-26-2013, 03:45 PM
 
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Every corporation's #1 goal is to maximize shareholders's wealth/profits. Vaccine manufacturers are no exception. Someone who buys and uses vaccines has to really mistrust the natural, innate, non toxic healthy ways of building a strong healthy immune system and overall health, since they rather trust the corporations' s toxic diseased vaccine products.
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#62 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 12:37 AM
 
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Yes. Vaccine corporations benefit from manufactured vaccine controversy because it lets them make new vaccines protected by patents that they can sell for big profits. Are you a shill for Big Pharma?
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#63 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 07:27 AM
 
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Big Pharma may have minimal/insignificant benefit due to sheeple but overall more non-sheeple are awakening to the whole vaccine scam and refusing vaccines. It takes people speaking out against vaccines for others to learn about it, since the majority of people won't think to question vaccines via their own originating thought. 99% of the time they first hear about vaccines being damaging and deadly from someone else.

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#64 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 08:58 AM
 
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It's not insignificant, it is literally billions of dollars in new drug business. Ten years ago there were vaccine shortages because it wasn't profitable for the big companies to produce generic vaccines. Now they are jumping into new vaccine development, inhalable vaccines, preservative-free vaccines, you name it. All thanks to people like you who are "sounding the alarm" about vaccines. It's a brilliant marketing strategy.
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#65 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 09:24 AM
 
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Pieces of paper (money) are insignificant. Money is insignificant. Protecting human lives from being poisoned and damaged by vaccines is what is significant. Just go to the "I'm not vaccinating" forum in here and ask them how they first learned to not vaccinate. Most people like myself first heard of it from someone else speaking out about vaccines being harmful, ineffective and dangerous. That is significant.

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#66 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 09:35 AM
 
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It's not insignificant, it is literally billions of dollars in new drug business. Ten years ago there were vaccine shortages because it wasn't profitable for the big companies to produce generic vaccines. Now they are jumping into new vaccine development, inhalable vaccines, preservative-free vaccines, you name it. All thanks to people like you who are "sounding the alarm" about vaccines. It's a brilliant marketing strategy.

Naimah  and anyone else, really….what, exactly, should those who advocate vaccine caution do then?  (serious question, no snark).

 

Creating vaccine controvery really does just fuel pro-vaccination sentiment…and yet, keeping quiet is not a great option - at all!!!

 

Mylilpwny - I am not going to tell you or anyone else how to post.  I do have some ideas on areas where we (non-vaxxers) are on pretty firm ground, however, and maybe we need to tailor our message?

 

Less hyperbole and inexact wording that people can pick apart (deflect) and more messages that are hard to refute:

 

-I am the parent and will make the call

-mandatory vaccines or strict exemptions are a very slippery slope

-things even mainstream medicine and organisations admit is a problem:  conflict of interest, lousy rates of efficacy in pertussis and influenza vaccines, etc.  There are lots of very sound reasons to question vaccines, that only a complete apologist could deny.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#67 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 09:46 AM
 
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Like I said, its a brilliant marketing strategy. I am pro-vaccine in the sense that I see evidence pointing to the fact that vaccinating is marginally less risky than not vaccinating. But honestly, the benefits are pretty marginal if you look at the stats. People should be able to do what they want.
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#68 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 09:49 AM
 
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Like I said, its a brilliant marketing strategy. I am pro-vaccine in the sense that I see evidence pointing to the fact that vaccinating is marginally less risky than not vaccinating. But honestly, the benefits are pretty marginal if you look at the stats. People should be able to do what they want.

Are you saying those who who argue for the non-vax postion are either knowingly or unknowingly aiding and abbetting the pro-vax side?  

 

If so, I would still like an answer as to how you think those who are non-vax should procede…or should we all just shut up?  Do you see flaws to that plan?

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#69 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 11:22 AM
 
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You're conflating pro-vax with pro-drug industry. They're not the same thing. And yes the broad impact of public vaccine controversy plays right into the hands of Big Pharma.

That's why I ask: is the anti-vaccine movement really all individual choice? Or are you just listening to other people telling you compelling stories about what to think? And where did those messages really come from? What if they were from pharma marketing experts? A lot of them seem to be straight off the package inserts.
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#70 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 11:41 AM
 
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You're conflating pro-vax with pro-drug industry. They're not the same thing. 
 Well, no, but I can see why you think that.  It was sloppy writing on my part.  I tend to use pro-vax as an umbrella term, but perhaps I should be more precise. (ex: pro-compliance, vaccine apologist, pro-drug company, etc)

That's why I ask: is the anti-vaccine movement really all individual choice? Or are you just listening to other people telling you compelling stories about what to think? And where did those messages really come from? What if they were from pharma marketing experts? A lot of them seem to be straight off the package inserts.
You are asking questions but not really answering mine, lol.   I do think the pro-vax side benefits more from online bickering than the non-vax side.  They have a majority on their side, and in some instances we are completely vilified.  I am not going to go so far as to say the pharmaceutical company is arranging this (who knows?) but they benefit from it.  My question to you is what do you think someone who is non-vax is supposed to do?  Not bring to light certain ideas?  
In any event, I do not think it is an entire slam dunk for vaccine apologists.  I think there is a growing acceptance for very selective/delayed.  I don't think HPV vaccine or flu vaccine have played out as favourably as some would like in the court of public opinion.  As I stated earlier, I think tailoring non-vax messages might be the smart thing to do.  I am interested in hearing what you think non-vaxxers should do.  

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#71 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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This is such an interesting shift in topic - very much appreciated in terms of though provoking ideas. :thumb  

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#72 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 02:18 PM
 
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Kathy, I wish I had an answer for you but I don't. I'm not sure anyone has really.

The growing acceptance of selective/delayed vax ties right in to the development and acceptance of new patent-protected vaccines (without thiomersal, acellular, new adjuvants, etc) "to meet market demand". Not sure it's a plus.
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#73 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 02:22 PM
 
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Kathy, I wish I had an answer for you but I don't. I'm not sure anyone has really.
 

Thanks for getting back to me, even if you do not have an answer :)

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#74 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 04:41 PM
 
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ICM, in response to your original post- I don't find it offensive and it is pretty representative of my stance on a few vaccines. In general, I don't find most vpds too scary, but if incidence rose, I would reevaluate whether or not I should vaccinate my kids.
For instance, I think about vaccinating for tetanus, and I may do that at some point. If it were more common, I'd be more concerned and more likely to vaccinate them for it. This has nothing to do with social responsibility, as it isn't a contagious disease. It has everything to do with weighing my concerns about potential harm from the vaccine against likelihood of contracting the illness (and its potential for harm).

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#75 of 81 Old 12-27-2013, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, Jenny!  


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#76 of 81 Old 12-30-2013, 07:13 AM
 
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The tailoring is fine. I already discuss conflicts of interest alot, but what I'm saying is no hyperbole and i do use exact wording for the reality of what's in vaccines and what they cause. Injecting toxic poison and diseased pus into people either saves them from being attacked and killed by the disease...Or it doesn't and its just a fraudulent illusion. One side is right the other side is wrong. We have absolutely nothing to lose and all the health to gain by avoiding these poisons. Injecting vaccines is always harmful because you knowingly inject toxic poison diseased pus inside someone, which is damaging and or deadly.

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#77 of 81 Old 01-05-2014, 12:49 PM
 
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 Injecting toxic poison and diseased pus into people either saves them from being attacked and killed by the disease...Or it doesn't and its just a fraudulent illusion. One side is right the other side is wrong. We have absolutely nothing to lose and all the health to gain by avoiding these poisons. Injecting vaccines is always harmful because you knowingly inject toxic poison diseased pus inside someone, which is damaging and or deadly.

 

Just out of curiosity, how many people do you personally know that have had mumps, measles, rubella,  diphtheria, or polio recently? 

 

Just 5 years before the rubella vaccine was licensed in the US in 1964 there were 20,000 cases of congenital rubella, resulting in 11,250 abortions (spontaneous or surgical), 2,100 neonatal deaths, 11,600 cases of deafness, 3,580 cases of blindness, 1,800 cases of mental retardation.   How many kids have you seen be born with congenital rubella lately? 

 

Do you really think it is a coincidence that those numbers have virtually dropped to zero since the vaccine? I mean you aren't going to argue that there was a huge increase in sanitation between 1964  and the 1970s are you?  

 

By 1979, rubella vaccination had eliminated the characteristic 6--9 year epidemic cycle of rubella in the United States. 

 

So yes, vaccines do "save people from being attacked and killed by disease". 

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#78 of 81 Old 01-14-2014, 06:31 AM
 
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Congenital rubella increased after the vaccine was invented. Source: CDC. MMWR (October 25, 2996). From 1966 to 1968, before the rubella vaccine was invented, 77% of all rubella cases occurred in persons 14 years of age or younger. Only 23% of all cases occurred in persons 15 years of age or older. By 1990, 81% of all rubella cases were in the 15 or older group, with the greatest increases in persons 15 to 29 years old. Source: CDC. “Rubella and congenital rubella syndrome – United States, 1985-1988. MMWR 1989; 38:173-178.

 

Pertussis: During a pertussis outbreak in Ohio, 82% of younger children stricken with the disease had received regular doses of the vaccine. Source: New England Journal of Medicine (July 7, 1994): 16-20. Also, babies die at a rate of 7 times greater than normal within 3 days after getting a pertussis vaccine. Source: American Gournal of Epidemiology “Confounding in studies of adverse reactions to vaccines”, 136 (1992), pp. 121-35.

 

Mumps: harmless & benign in children. Aseptic meningitis is a well-recognized disease caused by the mumps vaccine, with onset typically occurring 15 to 35 days after receiving the shot. Source: Lancet “Risk of aseptic meningitis after measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine in U.K. Children” 1993; 342:371.

 

Measles: harmless & benign in children. The measles vaccine manufacturer has published the following effects of the measles vaccine: encephalitis, subacute sclerosing panencephalitis, Guillain-Barre syndrome, befrile and afebrile convulsions, seizures, ataxia, ocular palsies, anaphylaxis, angioneurotic edema, bronchial spasms, panniculitis, vasculitis, atypical measles, thrombocytopenia, lymphadenopathy, leukocytosis, pneumonitis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, erythema multiforme, urticaria, deafness, otitis media, retinitis, optic neuritis, death. Source: Physician's Desk Reference; 55th edition, p. 1884

 

Diptheria: long before the diptheria vaccine was ever introduced, death from the disease decreased from 7.2 deaths per 10,000 in 1911 to .9 deaths per 10,000 in 1935, which is an 88% decrease, before the vaccine was ever invented. Source: Dublin L., et al. “Twenty-Five Years of Health Progress” (New York: Metropolitan Life Inusrnace Company, 1937) p. 56

 

Thus, vaccines kill, harm and damage people. They don't save anyone from being attacked by disease.

 

How many people do you know with cancer, autism or various auto-immune diseases, recently? How common were these conditions before vaccines were ever invented?

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#79 of 81 Old 01-14-2014, 10:16 AM
 
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Congenital rubella increased after the vaccine was invented. Source: CDC. MMWR (October 25, 2996). From 1966 to 1968, before the rubella vaccine was invented, 77% of all rubella cases occurred in persons 14 years of age or younger. Only 23% of all cases occurred in persons 15 years of age or older. By 1990, 81% of all rubella cases were in the 15 or older group, with the greatest increases in persons 15 to 29 years old. Source: CDC. “Rubella and congenital rubella syndrome – United States, 1985-1988. MMWR 1989; 38:173-178.

 

Pertussis: During a pertussis outbreak in Ohio, 82% of younger children stricken with the disease had received regular doses of the vaccine. Source: New England Journal of Medicine (July 7, 1994): 16-20. Also, babies die at a rate of 7 times greater than normal within 3 days after getting a pertussis vaccine. Source: American Gournal of Epidemiology “Confounding in studies of adverse reactions to vaccines”, 136 (1992), pp. 121-35.

 

Mumps: harmless & benign in children. Aseptic meningitis is a well-recognized disease caused by the mumps vaccine, with onset typically occurring 15 to 35 days after receiving the shot. Source: Lancet “Risk of aseptic meningitis after measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine in U.K. Children” 1993; 342:371.

 

Measles: harmless & benign in children. The measles vaccine manufacturer has published the following effects of the measles vaccine: encephalitis, subacute sclerosing panencephalitis, Guillain-Barre syndrome, befrile and afebrile convulsions, seizures, ataxia, ocular palsies, anaphylaxis, angioneurotic edema, bronchial spasms, panniculitis, vasculitis, atypical measles, thrombocytopenia, lymphadenopathy, leukocytosis, pneumonitis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, erythema multiforme, urticaria, deafness, otitis media, retinitis, optic neuritis, death. Source: Physician's Desk Reference; 55th edition, p. 1884

 

Diptheria: long before the diptheria vaccine was ever introduced, death from the disease decreased from 7.2 deaths per 10,000 in 1911 to .9 deaths per 10,000 in 1935, which is an 88% decrease, before the vaccine was ever invented. Source: Dublin L., et al. “Twenty-Five Years of Health Progress” (New York: Metropolitan Life Inusrnace Company, 1937) p. 56

 

Thus, vaccines kill, harm and damage people. They don't save anyone from being attacked by disease.

 

How many people do you know with cancer, autism or various auto-immune diseases, recently? How common were these conditions before vaccines were ever invented?

 

I agree with your points except for the first one.   An increase in PERCENTAGE of cases in a specific age group does not mean more TOTAL cases.  Were there more total cases, fewer total cases, or did that source not say how many total cases?

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#80 of 81 Old 01-14-2014, 09:29 PM
 
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Thus, vaccines kill, harm and damage people. They don't save anyone from being attacked by disease.

 

 

 

I don't have time to address all your points, but here is a graph you may find helpful.

 

 

Just looking at your first point on congenital rubella you are clearly wrong that cases went up after vaccinations.  20,000 cases in 1964 and ZERO cases in 2004. 

 

The rest of the graph speaks for itself.  Again, there is *no* doubt that vaccines have "saved people from being attacked by disease". 

 

Graph link:  http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=209448


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#81 of 81 Old 01-14-2014, 09:37 PM
 
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Am I seeing correctly that your graph does not show the progression of time but merely compares two distinct time periods for each drug?
You may be correct that the pp is wrong about congenital rubella, but you may be incorrect- your graph does not provide information to support your assertion. She said cases went up following introduction of the vaccine, correct? You are only displaying that cases are currently lower, not that they never went up.

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