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#1 of 81 Old 12-18-2013, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So, on this thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1394278/why-are-we-so-worried-about-vax-vs-non-vax/80#post_17529672

 

I said this: 

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
 

 

My guess is that for most NV families (those without reactions or other medical objections) if there were a big up tick in VPDs the benefits may start to outweigh the risks, making your fears unfounded. I don't frequent the forums here though so maybe I'm wrong about that assumption. 

 

And then member felt like I was making this assumption in ignorance and that my comment implied that I thought non-vaccinating families would "turn on a dime". 

 

To that I responded: 

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
 

 

I did not mean to imply that those who don't vaccinate "would turn on a dime" but that they would make changes to hep prevent a "big deal" caused by not vaccinating in the unlikelyhood that an uptick serious enough to make vaccination choice a big concern.

 

Of course this thread can go any number of directions in this forum but I wanted to start a new thread to ask a few questions. First, if I make a statement/assumption about a choice a person/people make, and what I say feels offensive to someone, I feel obligated to clarify and also to look at myself and try to figure out if I should change my views or how I express myself. 

 

To clarify, although I am aware that for many the issue of vaccination is a religious issue, I assume they are left out of the vaccine debate out of respect for their religious freedom. So, I did not factor them. But, I did think (from reading here, from friends who don't vaccinate, and based on the way I make my own choices) that the risk of contracting (and severity) of a VPD was a factor in "most" NV families. Please feel free to discuss this assumption. You can feel comfortable telling me why you think that's wrong or even if you think it's a reasonable assumption, why it's an insensitive thing to say. I feel open to changing my views about what I said. 

 

Secondly, all of my statements (believe it or not) were made in defense of not vaccinating. So, when I said that I thought that people who don't vaccinate would make changes in the event of a "big deal" VPD occurrence I meant just that. I didn't mean that I thought they "should" but that they "would". 

 

To clarify this comment I should say that maybe my "big deal" scenario was far too vague. I didn't have in mind 6 cases of whooping cough in CT and, as sad as the Syrian conflict is, I didn't even have in mind the cases of polio there. I had this apocalyptic story in my head and should have made that clear. 

 

I was asked what changes I thought non-vaccine families would make in the event of a situation of a situation like this (which I should have made more clear the severity of). 

 

I will answer... 

 

I think that a situation like what I was imagining would create a lot of unity for us as a culture. I never said that I thought anyone "should" do anything but I think in a serious health crisis that we would all do our part according to our values. For those who chose not to vaccinate because they were weighing risk/benefit, I assume that a lot of those people would choose to get the vaccination for that VPD. For those who were opposed to vaccination even in times of high likelihood of contracting a serious illness, I assume that those people would make lifestyle choices to keep their children and those around them safe. 

 

So, same as above -- please point out the places where this view is insensitive or ignorant. I can say that you may not need to point out why my hypothetical scenario is a silly thing to talk about. I agree with that and know better than to go down that road. 

 

Apologies in advance for typos. I can only seem to see them after I post. 

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#2 of 81 Old 12-18-2013, 08:05 PM
 
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Thanks for taking the time to bring more clarity to your post, and for being open to responses!  I, personally, understood the crazy/apocalyptic scenario you were intending to convey.  Made me think.  I doubt that scenario would change many of my choices or my approach to family healthcare, but one can only know what one would do when the moment presents itself.

 

I got that you seriously believe that families with children who are not vaccinated are thoughtful caring people who would not be letting their children with a case of diphtheria run freely through the playground or lick the apples at the grocery store.  : )  Hows that for a run-on sentence?  

 

For me, I made my choice vaccine by vaccine and according to each individual disease (it's prevalence and survivability and complications).  It is an on-going choice, and I don't consider myself "anti" or "pro" vaccine.  Some vaccines are tools that I choose to use, and other vaccines are not tools I would use.  My thinking applies both to my responsibility as a parent to make the best decisions for my family, AND as a member of society making the best choice for my community.

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#3 of 81 Old 12-18-2013, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I also want to quickly say that I do regret talking about a hypothetical event because it will inevitably to go other real events that then someone (like me) will end up trivializing because it doesn't represent a big enough occurrence for the type of effect I want to talk about.  I realize that the point at which something seems serious enough to feel like a national or global issue is relative. 

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#4 of 81 Old 12-18-2013, 08:13 PM
 
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I've seen some selective/non-vaxers post about looking at each disease individually and looking at the risk of getting the disease, the risk from the disease, and the risk from the vaccine, and deciding based on those factors. I would assume that if one of those factors changed significantly for a given disease (or for a given person) then some people would reevaluate, even if they ultimately ended up making the same decision as before. At least, that's what I'm getting out of your post, and it seems reasonable to me, though I am pro-vax. 


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#5 of 81 Old 12-18-2013, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by OrmEmbar View Post
 

Thanks for taking the time to bring more clarity to your post, and for being open to responses!  I, personally, understood the crazy/apocalyptic scenario you were intending to convey.  Made me think.  I doubt that scenario would change many of my choices or my approach to family healthcare, but one can only know what one would do when the moment presents itself.

 

I got that you seriously believe that families with children who are not vaccinated are thoughtful caring people who would not be letting their children with a case of diphtheria run freely through the playground or lick the apples at the grocery store.  : )  Hows that for a run-on sentence?  

 

For me, I made my choice vaccine by vaccine and according to each individual disease (it's prevalence and survivability and complications).  It is an on-going choice, and I don't consider myself "anti" or "pro" vaccine.  Some vaccines are tools that I choose to use, and other vaccines are not tools I would use.  My thinking applies both to my responsibility as a parent to make the best decisions for my family, AND as a member of society making the best choice for my community.

Thank you. 

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#6 of 81 Old 12-18-2013, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by erigeron View Post
 

I've seen some selective/non-vaxers post about looking at each disease individually and looking at the risk of getting the disease, the risk from the disease, and the risk from the vaccine, and deciding based on those factors. I would assume that if one of those factors changed significantly for a given disease (or for a given person) then some people would reevaluate, even if they ultimately ended up making the same decision as before. At least, that's what I'm getting out of your post, and it seems reasonable to me, though I am pro-vax. 

Yea, I guess this could have been phrased the opposite way. If a vaccine started showing more or worse side effects and/or the illness was discovered to  be milder than previously believed, would you reevaluate? I think I've read a question like that before but of course that is a bit different because the choice to vaccinate is the mainstream choice. 

 

You post reminded me to clarify one more thing. 

 

Even if a NV family reevaluated and decided to get a vaccine during my hypothetical scenario, I would not assume that anything else would change for them in terms of how they evaluate vaccines. I know we have a few pretty staunch NV families who have chosen a vaccine or two. I do not in any way shape or form consider those people inconsistent. But, I'm a selective/delayed person so that would make sense, I guess. 

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#7 of 81 Old 12-18-2013, 09:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
 

So, on this thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1394278/why-are-we-so-worried-about-vax-vs-non-vax/80#post_17529672

 

I said this: 

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
 

 

My guess is that for most NV families (those without reactions or other medical objections) if there were a big up tick in VPDs the benefits may start to outweigh the risks, making your fears unfounded. I don't frequent the forums here though so maybe I'm wrong about that assumption. 

 

And then member felt like I was making this assumption in ignorance and that my comment implied that I thought non-vaccinating families would "turn on a dime". 

 

To that I responded: 

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
 

 

I did not mean to imply that those who don't vaccinate "would turn on a dime" but that they would make changes to hep prevent a "big deal" caused by not vaccinating in the unlikelyhood that an uptick serious enough to make vaccination choice a big concern.

 

Of course this thread can go any number of directions in this forum but I wanted to start a new thread to ask a few questions. First, if I make a statement/assumption about a choice a person/people make, and what I say feels offensive to someone, I feel obligated to clarify and also to look at myself and try to figure out if I should change my views or how I express myself. 

 

To clarify, although I am aware that for many the issue of vaccination is a religious issue, I assume they are left out of the vaccine debate out of respect for their religious freedom. So, I did not factor them. But, I did think (from reading here, from friends who don't vaccinate, and based on the way I make my own choices) that the risk of contracting (and severity) of a VPD was a factor in "most" NV families. Please feel free to discuss this assumption. You can feel comfortable telling me why you think that's wrong or even if you think it's a reasonable assumption, why it's an insensitive thing to say. I feel open to changing my views about what I said. 

 

Secondly, all of my statements (believe it or not) were made in defense of not vaccinating. So, when I said that I thought that people who don't vaccinate would make changes in the event of a "big deal" VPD occurrence I meant just that. I didn't mean that I thought they "should" but that they "would". 

 

To clarify this comment I should say that maybe my "big deal" scenario was far too vague. I didn't have in mind 6 cases of whooping cough in CT and, as sad as the Syrian conflict is, I didn't even have in mind the cases of polio there. I had this apocalyptic story in my head and should have made that clear. 

 

I was asked what changes I thought non-vaccine families would make in the event of a situation of a situation like this (which I should have made more clear the severity of). 

 

I will answer... 

 

I think that a situation like what I was imagining would create a lot of unity for us as a culture. I never said that I thought anyone "should" do anything but I think in a serious health crisis that we would all do our part according to our values. For those who chose not to vaccinate because they were weighing risk/benefit, I assume that a lot of those people would choose to get the vaccination for that VPD. For those who were opposed to vaccination even in times of high likelihood of contracting a serious illness, I assume that those people would make lifestyle choices to keep their children and those around them safe. 

 

So, same as above -- please point out the places where this view is insensitive or ignorant. I can say that you may not need to point out why my hypothetical scenario is a silly thing to talk about. I agree with that and know better than to go down that road. 

 

Apologies in advance for typos. I can only seem to see them after I post. 

 I think a lot of currently nonvaxing families think they would never vax  but if confronted with the reality of a verging epidemic, they would most likely vax their kids. Especially if they saw their friends, neighbors, and own family members start to fall ill.

 

This family is now provax

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10855638

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#8 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Lisa Sing View Post
 

 I think a lot of currently nonvaxing families think they would never vax  but if confronted with the reality of a verging epidemic, they would most likely vax their kids. Especially if they saw their friends, neighbors, and own family members start to fall ill.

 

This family is now provax

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10855638

Yes, and I think I can see why some members felt that my comments were insulting because I think there are a lot of ways this sort of comment can be interpreted, especially with the linked article that talks about this family who "thought they were informed".  

 

 

Weighing likelihoods is a tough game because we all know on some level that "if there are cases out there" that we could be the ones. When it's our children I really sympathize with parent who change their minds about whatever choice they made. I have and do make some alternative choices for my kids and I have often wondered what I would do if I were to be one of the rare cases of a poor outcome. ETA: I have also make a lot of mainstream choices for my kids and I wonder if I would change my mind about those too if we had a poor outcomes from one of those choices. I would be lying if I said I knew for sure I wouldn't totally change my mind. I think that's human nature and not something unique to people who choose to not vaccinate.  

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#9 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 05:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Lisa Sing View Post
 

 I think a lot of currently nonvaxing families think they would never vax  but if confronted with the reality of a verging epidemic, they would most likely vax their kids. Especially if they saw their friends, neighbors, and own family members start to fall ill.

 

This family is now provax

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10855638

The H1N1 "pandemic" in 2009 that never was....I saw many people get mildly sick with this, and mainstream media with the nonstop hype and fearmongering going on, telling everyone to rush out and get this vax before this 'deadly flu' kills you.  I didn't rush out to get vaccinated, nor did i rush my kids to the dr for vaccines, either.   We all caught swine flu, and were over it in two days.  So much for the 'epidemic' to kill millions.  All nonvaxers I know of, did not rush out to get vaccinated for this either.   They're all alive, to this day, too. 

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#10 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 06:26 AM
 
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So, on this thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1394278/why-are-we-so-worried-about-vax-vs-non-vax/80#post_17529672

 

I said this: 

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
 

 

My guess is that for most NV families (those without reactions or other medical objections) if there were a big up tick in VPDs the benefits may start to outweigh the risks, making your fears unfounded. I don't frequent the forums here though so maybe I'm wrong about that assumption. 

 

And then member felt like I was making this assumption in ignorance and that my comment implied that I thought non-vaccinating families would "turn on a dime". 

 

To that I responded: 

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
 

 

I did not mean to imply that those who don't vaccinate "would turn on a dime" but that they would make changes to hep prevent a "big deal" caused by not vaccinating in the unlikelyhood that an uptick serious enough to make vaccination choice a big concern.

 

Of course this thread can go any number of directions in this forum but I wanted to start a new thread to ask a few questions. First, if I make a statement/assumption about a choice a person/people make, and what I say feels offensive to someone, I feel obligated to clarify and also to look at myself and try to figure out if I should change my views or how I express myself. 

 

To clarify, although I am aware that for many the issue of vaccination is a religious issue, I assume they are left out of the vaccine debate out of respect for their religious freedom. So, I did not factor them. But, I did think (from reading here, from friends who don't vaccinate, and based on the way I make my own choices) that the risk of contracting (and severity) of a VPD was a factor in "most" NV families. Please feel free to discuss this assumption. You can feel comfortable telling me why you think that's wrong or even if you think it's a reasonable assumption, why it's an insensitive thing to say. I feel open to changing my views about what I said. 

 

Secondly, all of my statements (believe it or not) were made in defense of not vaccinating. So, when I said that I thought that people who don't vaccinate would make changes in the event of a "big deal" VPD occurrence I meant just that. I didn't mean that I thought they "should" but that they "would". 

 

To clarify this comment I should say that maybe my "big deal" scenario was far too vague. I didn't have in mind 6 cases of whooping cough in CT and, as sad as the Syrian conflict is, I didn't even have in mind the cases of polio there. I had this apocalyptic story in my head and should have made that clear. 

 

I was asked what changes I thought non-vaccine families would make in the event of a situation of a situation like this (which I should have made more clear the severity of). 

 

I will answer... 

 

I think that a situation like what I was imagining would create a lot of unity for us as a culture. I never said that I thought anyone "should" do anything but I think in a serious health crisis that we would all do our part according to our values. For those who chose not to vaccinate because they were weighing risk/benefit, I assume that a lot of those people would choose to get the vaccination for that VPD. For those who were opposed to vaccination even in times of high likelihood of contracting a serious illness, I assume that those people would make lifestyle choices to keep their children and those around them safe. 

 

So, same as above -- please point out the places where this view is insensitive or ignorant. I can say that you may not need to point out why my hypothetical scenario is a silly thing to talk about. I agree with that and know better than to go down that road. 

 

Apologies in advance for typos. I can only seem to see them after I post. 


OK, I "turned on a dime."

 

I used to fully vax my first baby. I thought I was doing society a "favor." I thought it was my "civic duty." What did I get for a reward of being oh-so-responsible? A brain damaged child from vaccine injury! So, yeah, I "turned on a dime." AWAY from believing  the BS about standard vaccine "safety."  When people see their own children seizing, hear their baby screaming that high pitched "brain damage" scream, watch their child's fever fly upwards of 106 degrees the day after a DPT, watch as their toddler develops Cerebellar Ataxia, stops walking, stops moving and just LIES THERE staring into space and whimpering, not even being able to lift her head off of the bed,in the days following her first MMR,  then watches that child's personality change dramatically from a happy baby to a worried looking, ticcing, twitching seizing, constantly moving, unhappy child, they may too, (if they are paying attention to the timing) "turn on a dime."

 

Yes, I was actully stupid enough and brain washed enough to get my poor baby the MMR AFTER she had already had a reaction to the DPT becuase our "good doctor" told us "they are very different vaccines." So due to my STUPIDITY my child got brain damage whammied TWICE. I'll NEVER forgive myself. Never.

 

Plus, myself and two of my three children were vaxed (one only semi vaxed) against Pertussis. Our family GOT Pertussis a few years back. My little one, who had never had a Pertussis vaccine, got it, my oldest, who HAD gotten 2 oe 3 Pertussis vaccines got it, my middle one got it, and I got it. There was NO difference in severity based on who was vaccinated. NONE. PLus, our experince would NOT cause me to vax for Pertussis if were to have an other child. NOr will any of us get "boosters" of this poison.  The vaccine is worse than the disease. I've LIVED both the disease and fall out and damage from the vaccine, I'd take the disease hands down every time with Pertussis. It sucked, but the vaccine reaction was FAR WORSE.

 

I have one more thing to say: You said To clarify, although I am aware that for many the issue of vaccination is a religious issue, I assume they are left out of the vaccine debate out of respect for their religious freedom.

 

People who make choices based on religious stuff aren't responsible for their actions?

 

So, somebody who makes a choice not to vaccinate because other people are telling them what to do and don't have to "defend their choices" but those of us who don't vax or selectively vax because we do our own THINKING for ourselves  have to explain ourselves?

 

I would think it would be the other way around. I make my OWN decisions, it isn't based on superstition or wives tales or because I fear I'll end up in some firey place because I don't do something that some guy in Power told me to. My decisions are based on what I've SEEN and what I've learned. WHY is that to be "respected" less than someone who may make the same decisions I do, but does it because she thinks something superstitious is going to strike her down in her tracks if she doesn't toe some made up line? (Which, in the end is made up by.... people who want power over others. Ain't nothin' in The Bible about vaccination.)

 

One IS completely responsible for what one does when one DECIDES to blindly follow religious dogma. If I have to "be responsible" for my choices to selectively vax, )or not vax at all) then someone who made the same of similar choice because her religion "told her to" is JUST as responsible. And MY decision should be subject to just as much resepct as hers.

 

No one should get out of responsiblity because they claim "Somebody told me I have to do this." Nor are they worthy of more "respect" than people who make similar decisions based on THINKING. (Y'know, using the brain the Good Lord gave you?)

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#11 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 06:27 AM
 
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You are a brave soul, ICM.  I am glad you started this thread.  

 

I will say I was a little uneasy with your comments.  

 

If you would vaccinate in an outbreak, an argument can be made you should vaccinate to prevent an outbreak, and that you are really just benefiting from other people taking a risk with their children you will not take with yours.  There is some validity to this argument, but it is sooo much more complex than this.  

 

With any disease, to justify not vaxxing for it (not that you have to justify not vaxxing to anybody, perhaps more to yourself…) you should ask yourself a few questions.

 

1.  Is this a disease you are suffeciently concerned about that you would vaccinate if there was an uptick?  If the answer is no, rest easy. 

 I would still not vaccinate even if there was an increase in rubella, mumps, chicken pox, rotavirus, or hep. a in children

 

2.  Do you think vaccines play a significant roll in keeping the disease rates low?  If the answer is no, rest easy.  For me, these diseases include tetanus, diphtheria, hep. b. pertussis and the flu.   I actually would vaccinate if diphtheria returned (nasty disease) I just cannot see that happening.  It is  very much a disease of over-crowding and poor sanitation.  I don't think it is primarily kept in check where I live by vaccines.   

 

The only 2 diseases where I feel I am resting on the risks other people take with their children are measles and Polio. I feel very shaky where measles stats are concerned, I have read everything from a fatality rate of 1/300 to 1/3000 in developed countries.  I would head towards vaxxing a teen, and might take my chances with the disease in children.  It is a tough call.  Measles is a highly contagious disease, I do think it could come back if rates dropped.  We have some evidence for this (Europe).

 

Polio.  I would prefer my kids do not get this.  The risk of long term paralysis (1/200-1/400, IIRC) is too high for me. Still, given the incredibly low rate of Polio in developed nations, the risk at this time is more theoretical than real.  It is hard for me to justify a vaccine-risk for a disease they have virtually no chance of getting.  I would vaccinate for Polio if it returned.  

 

So, of all the disease we have on the vaccine schedule, the only 2 that give me pause are measles and Polio.  

 

Really, though, I have no lost sleep over the issue.  If I am relying on the risks of others for 2 vaccines, so be it.  I can assure you that other people benefit from my actions, including health choices, in other ways.  My life scorecard is pretty good. 


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#12 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 06:45 AM
 
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Even if a NV family reevaluated and decided to get a vaccine during my hypothetical scenario, I would not assume that anything else would change for them in terms of how they evaluate vaccines. I know we have a few pretty staunch NV families who have chosen a vaccine or two. I do not in any way shape or form consider those people inconsistent. But, I'm a selective/delayed person so that would make sense, I guess. 

My youngest has had one vaccine.  I do believe the doctor thought I had switched sides when I asked for the vaccine.  She started talking about baby steps and further vaccines.  Uh…no.  This vaccine, for this child.  I think I made her quite happy and then burst her bubble, all in the space of 90 seconds, lol.

 

I actually did have difficulty letting people know here that I had given my child one vaccine.  It sounds lamish, but when you argue forcibly against vaccines for awhile, it can be a hard thing to admit.  I know it goes the other way, as well.   I once asked several pro-vaxxers to list which vaccines they saw as priority, and they would not do it.  My own opinion is that dedication to their cause of pro-vax kept their mouths shut - they did not want to admit any personal opinions or hesitancies they had.  

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#13 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 07:03 AM
 
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I've seen some selective/non-vaxers post about looking at each disease individually and looking at the risk of getting the disease, the risk from the disease, and the risk from the vaccine, and deciding based on those factors. I would assume that if one of those factors changed significantly for a given disease (or for a given person) then some people would reevaluate, even if they ultimately ended up making the same decision as before. At least, that's what I'm getting out of your post, and it seems reasonable to me, though I am pro-vax. 


Let me ask you a question, and this is a hard one. If your child or children were to suffer a vaccine injury would YOU change your mind about being "pro-vax?"

 

I did.


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#14 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 08:59 AM
 
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It's a good question, but I don't know that it's a hard one. Even the biggest pro-vaxxer will admit that some children, however miniscule the number, can't handle vaccines. So in this situation, that pro-vaxxer would not be pro-vax for her own child. If anything, it makes them more strongly pro-vax because they believe that everyone else around them should be vaccinated to create a cocoon of protection around that child. I don't share this position, necessarily, but I believe that's how it is argued.
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#15 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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OK, I "turned on a dime."

 

I think the idea of "turning on a dime" is viewed so negatively in our culture. It sounds like the vaccine reaction that your family experienced caused you to go back through the research and that combined with your experience caused you to change your views. I wish we lived in a culture where that was not considered a bad thing. :o

 

I'm curious if the experience you had of changing your mind give you some special insight into similar perspective changing experiences that other families may have? 

 

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I have one more thing to say: You said To clarify, although I am aware that for many the issue of vaccination is a religious issue, I assume they are left out of the vaccine debate out of respect for their religious freedom.

 

People who make choices based on religious stuff aren't responsible for their actions?

 

So, somebody who makes a choice not to vaccinate because other people are telling them what to do and don't have to "defend their choices" but those of us who don't vax or selectively vax because we do our own THINKING for ourselves  have to explain ourselves?

 

 

 

I can't get a good read on this response and can't tell if this is more of a vent about religiously formed opinions getting a free pass from the general population or if this is directed specifically to me. Either way, I don't think any of those things above. 

 

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I will say I was a little uneasy with your comments.  

 

If you would vaccinate in an outbreak, an argument can be made you should vaccinate to prevent an outbreak, and that you are really just benefiting from other people taking a risk with their children you will not take with yours.  

 

Thanks, Kathy. I like your whole post and can relate to everything you said and I especially relate to not losing sleep over people thinking I'm not doing my share for society. Most of my family and friends are in the NFL sort of progressive community and the focus on others "not doing their part" is a peeve of mine because I look at myself and know that I am not perfect and the energy I would spend on trying to make someone else do their part would take away from me doing better for myself.  

 

Can you tell me more about what you said about the relationship between being willing to vaccinate and people thinking you should vaccinate? 

 

Can you tell me what your general response would be to the idea that vaccination is an important issue to focus on in terms of what other families choose to do because of the fear of a health issue (especially a big outbreak) related to that choice?  Because that was really the origin of my very first post about this.  

 

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I actually did have difficulty letting people know here that I had given my child one vaccine.  It sounds lamish, but when you argue forcibly against vaccines for awhile, it can be a hard thing to admit.  I know it goes the other way, as well. 

Yea, that's become more clear to me. I have a generally positive view of a person changing their mind - no matter which way or on what topic.  But, I guess that if someone is constantly trying to pick apart your choices that my assumption that those choices would change if circumstances changed feels a lot like more of the same attack? Is that right? 

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#16 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 10:44 AM
 
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Let me ask you a question, and this is a hard one. If your child or children were to suffer a vaccine injury would YOU change your mind about being "pro-vax?"

 

I did.

I'm sure somebody will rejoin with "Well, you never know how you'll feel until you're in the situation" and use that to invalidate my entire opinion, but you asked, so I'll share it. My thought on this at this time is that no, I would not change my mind. I would continue to look at what the science says as I continued to consider further vaccinations for my children. If I had a child with a vaccine reaction, that points to a medical risk for my family--not for everybody, or a majority, or even a minority of any size. I would accordingly evaluate the medical risk to that child and to any other children I might have who are genetically related to that child. Having a serious reaction would make me know my family has risk factors. I don't think it would alter my belief that vaccination is the best choice for the general population in absence of risk factors. 

 

My mom had flu-like symptoms from a flu shot for a few days once, but I've never had a reaction worse than some arm soreness, so one family member's reaction won't necessarily predict another's either. Though when I got my first flu shot, I did bear that in mind. I didn't actually get one until such a time as I was part of a higher-risk group for flu. I chose a career in health care, though, so I'll be in that higher-risk group for a while. 

 

I know we are all nervous about that small percent chance of a reaction. I was nervous too when I vaccinated my daughter, even though logically I knew that she would more than likely be fine--which she has been. We vaccinated her on a slightly delayed schedule, but she was caught up by her two-year checkup, except the rotovirus which our doc's office didn't keep in stock but kept saying they could order and then not getting in, and the doses of flu before two, which I skipped. The only vaccine reaction she has ever had was a bit of leg redness for 1 day when she got either MMR or varicella, I forget which. She never even had any extra crying, moodiness, or anything like that (aside from crying for a moment right after the shot because it hurt). I think I'll be less nervous about vaccinating my next child. 


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I really liked your post @erigeron and that way you are describing making a different choice in light of different circumstances while still maintaining your core values on an issue is something that makes a lot of sense to me. 

 

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I'm sure somebody will rejoin with "Well, you never know how you'll feel until you're in the situation" and use that to invalidate my entire opinion, but you asked, so I'll share it. 

 
Not at all to argue this but to use to as a jumping off point about how this relates to my OP...
 
I think my comments may have felt a little like the sort of invalidation you are describing. I mean, we all can acknowledge that we really never will know how we will react to something with 100% certainty. That does't change the fact that when someone who doesn't respect our choices or thought process says something to that effect it can feel very invalidating. 
 
It can be so hard to read intent online. Has anyone experienced someone saying "You never know how you'll feel until you're in the situation" online? I have and I've interpreted it differently depending on a lot of factors. Sometimes I feel very appreciated of that perspective.... other times, not so much. ;)
 
The problem with online communication is that intent is a huge factor and that is so hard to read. I know that if/when I come off as invalidating that I do appreciate having that pointed out...no matter how difficult that can be to hear. So, I do appreciate everyone speaking up!  
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#18 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 12:09 PM
 
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I'm sure somebody will rejoin with "Well, you never know how you'll feel until you're in the situation" and use that to invalidate my entire opinion, but you asked, so I'll share it. My thought on this at this time is that no, I would not change my mind. I would continue to look at what the science says as I continued to consider further vaccinations for my children. If I had a child with a vaccine reaction, that points to a medical risk for my family--not for everybody, or a majority, or even a minority of any size. I would accordingly evaluate the medical risk to that child and to any other children I might have who are genetically related to that child. Having a serious reaction would make me know my family has risk factors. I don't think it would alter my belief that vaccination is the best choice for the general population in absence of risk factors. 

 

 

 

I get this.  As posted upthread, my youngest has recieved a vaccine.  I decided it was a good idea for her.  That doesn't mean I have switched sides and decided the vast majority of children should recieve all their vaxxes on time.  

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#19 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 12:21 PM
 
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Yea, that's become more clear to me. I have a generally positive view of a person changing their mind - no matter which way or on what topic.  But, I guess that if someone is constantly trying to pick apart your choices that my assumption that those choices would change if circumstances changed feels a lot like more of the same attack? Is that right? 

Yes, somewhat.  I was not horribly offended, though. Truly. I would have told you if I was.

 

I was more concerned with where the argument of "if the disease comes back, more people would vax" would lead, and not necessarily by you.  It has traditionally lead to flame-type fests, with non-vaxxers being accused of resting on other peoples risks.  

 

ETA:  but really, you should not be afraid to say something because of where it may lead.  It is a messy board, lol.  

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#20 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 12:26 PM
 
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So in this situation, that pro-vaxxer would not be pro-vax for her own child. If anything, it makes them more strongly pro-vax because they believe that everyone else around them should be vaccinated to create a cocoon of protection around that child. I don't share this position, necessarily, but I believe that's how it is argued.

I actively dislike it when those whose children cannot be vaccinated expect others to vaccinate their children.

 

Remain pro-vax even if you can't vax?  Sure.

 

Be grateful to those that did vaccinate?  Ok

 

Expect others to vaccinate because your child cannot be vaccinated?  No.  


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#21 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 01:24 PM
 
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I actively dislike it when those whose children cannot be vaccinated expect others to vaccinate their children.

Remain pro-vax even if you can't vax?  Sure.

Be grateful to those that did vaccinate?  Ok

Expect others to vaccinate because your child cannot be vaccinated?  No.  

Agreed. My problem with that attitude, besides how it can reek of entitlement, is that it's illogical and short-sighted. There are thousand and thousands of different pathogens, and an immunocompromised person expects everyone around them to engage in a medical intervention, with its embedded risks, just to protect their non-vaxxed selves from a mere handful of them? Even with a 100% compliant population, the immunocompromised, or people who can't be vaxxed, will go through life having to take extraordinary precautions. Honestly, we all have to take sensible precautions, vaxxed or not. It's just an unfortunate fact.

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#22 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was more concerned with where the argument of "if the disease comes back, more people would vax" would lead, and not necessarily by you.  It has traditionally lead to flame-type fests, with non-vaxxers being accused of resting on other peoples risks.  

 

ETA:  but really, you should not be afraid to say something because of where it may lead.  It is a messy board, lol.  

 

Well, except that I do think there are certain concepts, phrases, or perspectives that are just kind of unwelcome and I get that because I feel the same way about some things.  I think maybe since I'm a long time member and a mod it was an ok assumption that maybe I should have known better. But, like with all things, I read along but I don't pick up on everything. Vax debate isn't a focus of mine so I didn't realize how controversial what I said was. 

 

No one likes it when someone picks their words apart but I think it's totally reasonable to say, "Hey, I understand that you didn't mean what I thought you meant but I want you to know that the language you used to express your ideas is a really sensitive topic in this community."  

 

As for the general idea that I brought up, I'm still open to hearing about the ways that it's problematic. It seems that it isn't just about the language I used by also the sentiment behind it. For you, is it more the history of how the sentiment has been used to belittle your choices or is there more to just the general assumption that many people who choose not to vax may chose to if there was a big rise in a VPD? 

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#23 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 02:52 PM
 
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I just wanted to say thank you to the contributors on this thread for such a lovely, respectful crystallization of some of your opinions.  Many of you post a lot, and as a casual reader of various debates, I've always wondered where you're coming from on some of the debates.  @kathymuggle - I really appreciate your explanations on this thread.  no real comment - just wanted to say thanks for this refreshing and candid view of where people are coming from.  (Not that I think it's all that relevant, but I'm a selective vaccinator - I do not get flu or varicella, and I delayed my kids' vaccinations.)

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I can't get a good read on this response and can't tell if this is more of a vent about religiously formed opinions getting a free pass from the general population or if this is directed specifically to me. Either way, I don't think any of those things above. 

 

IdentityCrisisMama, it was not directed towards you, not at all.

shake.gif

It was that people who don't vax due to religious reasons get a "free pass." It irritates me. I actually had a guy at the school district, when we first started being harassed about not "fully" vaccinating our children told me, "Worse comes to worse, make up your own religion. They can't touch you then." I didn't want to do that, I thought it would be more than a little disingenuous.

 

You also said (I haven't mastered multiple quotes yet) :

I think the idea of "turning on a dime" is viewed so negatively in our culture. It sounds like the vaccine reaction that your family experienced caused you to go back through the research and that combined with your experience caused you to change your views. I wish we lived in a culture where that was not considered a bad thing. :o

 

I'm curious if the experience you had of changing your mind give you some special insight into similar perspective changing experiences that other families may have? 

 

I think so. I had a lot of trust in the medical profession, I stilll do, but it's tempered with checking my data and thinking before just assuming "there's only one way to do things."  I can't speak for other families, but I'm sure most families who have a vaccine injured child feel betrayed and lied to, as I was. My child was the one whose dates of her MMR and dates of her admission to the hospital were switched, and later blamed on "clerical error" and now it's written in stone, Our Ped knows my oldest is vaccine damaged, but we never brought a case or anything. I'm not the suing kind and at the time, we didn't know the Cerebellar Ataxia or what we know now was the encephalitic crying would have long term effects on our child.


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#25 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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IdentityCrisisMama, it was not directed towards you, not at all.

Oh, good. I'm glad I asked. 

 

I totally agree with you about the religious exemption. The state where I live now only has religious but my previous state has philosophical as well. I can greatly sympathize with frustration over only having a religious exemption -- especially given the way those forms in my state are worded - with no specification about what religion is and is not. It's so vague that it just begs to be applied with a very broad brush. 

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#26 of 81 Old 12-19-2013, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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(I haven't mastered multiple quotes yet) :

At some point MDC changed their quote formatting. The multi quote feature works by clicking all of the posts you want to quote and then hitting "quote" at the last one you want to use. When I want to quote a bunch of different parts of one long post I will cut and paste the whole quote and then edit out the parts I don't want to use. It's less than ideal. I vote for us to allow ourselves to go off topic on the subject of quote technique if anyone has some better tips - I know I could sure use them. 

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#27 of 81 Old 12-20-2013, 08:19 AM
 
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At some point MDC changed their quote formatting. The multi quote feature works by clicking all of the posts you want to quote and then hitting "quote" at the last one you want to use. When I want to quote a bunch of different parts of one long post I will cut and paste the whole quote and then edit out the parts I don't want to use. It's less than ideal. I vote for us to allow ourselves to go off topic on the subject of quote technique if anyone has some better tips - I know I could sure use them. 

Thank you. :stillheart I'll try to do it next time.

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#28 of 81 Old 12-20-2013, 08:34 AM
 
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IdentityCrisisMama, it was not directed towards you, not at all.

shake.gif

It was that people who don't vax due to religious reasons get a "free pass." It irritates me. I actually had a guy at the school district, when we first started being harassed about not "fully" vaccinating our children told me, "Worse comes to worse, make up your own religion. They can't touch you then." I didn't want to do that, I thought it would be more than a little disingenuous.

 

You also said (I haven't mastered multiple quotes yet) :

I think the idea of "turning on a dime" is viewed so negatively in our culture. It sounds like the vaccine reaction that your family experienced caused you to go back through the research and that combined with your experience caused you to change your views. I wish we lived in a culture where that was not considered a bad thing. :o

 

I'm curious if the experience you had of changing your mind give you some special insight into similar perspective changing experiences that other families may have? 

 

I think so. I had a lot of trust in the medical profession, I stilll do, but it's tempered with checking my data and thinking before just assuming "there's only one way to do things."  I can't speak for other families, but I'm sure most families who have a vaccine injured child feel betrayed and lied to, as I was. My child was the one whose dates of her MMR and dates of her admission to the hospital were switched, and later blamed on "clerical error" and now it's written in stone, Our Ped knows my oldest is vaccine damaged, but we never brought a case or anything. I'm not the suing kind and at the time, we didn't know the Cerebellar Ataxia or the Crei Du Chat would have long term effects on our child.


Sadly, my post was co-opted by an other site who attacked my use of a term. When my oldest DD had the high pitched encephalitic screaming after her DPT (back then they used the whole cell Pertussis vaccine) our Ped, the one with the MD after her name referred to the screaming, as she had me put the baby on the phone so she could hear the screaming and SHE referred to it as "Cri Du Chat." I again. trusted someone with an MD after her name and was AGAIN given improper information. FIREdevil.gif     See my point?  (And my MD had been practicing a lot longer than say..... 6 year.... but my guess is she has more important things to do with her time than go around making sure every off hand comment of others isn't used in nasty, attack mode ways because she actually practices medicine.... to this day.  And, to be honest, I still trust her most of the time.) I did trust that someone with an MD after her name would know her ALL terms, and put it in my records and referred to it as I TRUSTED an MD to use proper terminology. Stuff happens, it wasn't the end of the world. No one person can know everything.

 

My oldest child does NOT have a chromosome disorder. So forgive me for using an improper term. (An unforgivable action in the eyes of some who seek to harm others with vile words and unkind actions. How sad to live one's life this way, only looking for ways to mock and use hyperbole and twist words to hurt others. What an existence.) This makes me even less trusting and more likely to question everything I am told by certain people.

 

My child is STILL vaccine damaged.


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#29 of 81 Old 12-20-2013, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you. :stillheart I'll try to do it next time.

I'm a total Luddite - it takes me forever to figure this stuff out. It was like 2011 when I learned about ctl+C/P and I JUST learned about ctl+Z and it has changed my life.  :rotflmao 


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#30 of 81 Old 12-20-2013, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I did trust that someone with an MD after her name would know her ALL terms, and put it in my records and referred to it as I TRUSTED an MD to use proper terminology. Stuff happens, it wasn't the end of the world.  

 

To this point, I am grateful for getting pregnant with my first child while living in a little progressive college town. My class on child development included a great education on advocating for children during pregnancy, birth and early childhood. On top of that I had the privilege of picking and choosing care providers. Those two things helped create a situation where I have felt very "in charge" of my children's medical care from the very beginning. Even still, I too have been given erroneous information from both mainstream medical providers as well as alternative practitioners and that makes it hard to sift through what is already quite a lot for a parent be informed about. I try my best to double check information...but it can be very hard to find the time.  That's one of the things I admire about the regulars in this forum (on both sides). 

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