Over a dozen people on life support in Michigan from the flu - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 40 Old 01-06-2014, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Rxlist.com has more extensive information:

"Children or teens should not take aspirin for 4 weeks after getting FluMist. FluMist may interact with steroids."

and

"Call your doctor at once if you have any of these serious side effects:

  • severe weakness or unusual feeling in your arms and legs (may occur 2 to 4 weeks after you receive the vaccine); or
  • high fever, chills, body aches, flu symptoms."

 

So the manufacturer KNOWS that severe adverse effects can occur 2 to 4 weeks after vaccination.

 

And teacozy wants to assume that "the vaccine certainly didn't cause him to die." 

 

I don't have much time to respond but first of all, my response was to your assertion that his parents might have contracted the flu from his flumist shedding.  You said "​If it was the flu MIST, that is known to CAUSE flu...and it could certainly have been the source of infection for his parents, if they came down with it a week or two after he was given FluMist."  

 

Second of all, you put a period after "Flumist may interact with steroids" when there isn't one on RXlist.com.  What it says is "Children or teens should not take aspirin for 4 weeks after getting FluMist. FluMist may interact with steroids, medications to treat psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, or other autoimmune disorders, or medications to treat autoimmune disorders. Tell your doctor all medications and supplements you take and other vaccines you have recently received." http://www.rxlist.com/flumist-side-effects-drug-center.htm

 

It doesn't say anywhere that I could find that steroids should not be given a month after the flumist, just that they shouldn't be taken in conjunction/right before the vaccine. The reason is that steroids weaken the immune system.  So I would like a link/some evidence that giving a steroid a month after the flumist is contraindicated. 

 

"Before receiving FluMist, tell the doctor about all other vaccines you have recently received.

Also tell the doctor if you have recently received drugs or treatments that can weaken the immune system, including:

  • an oral, nasal, inhaled, or injectable steroid medicine;

  • medications to treat psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, or other autoimmune disorders; or

  • medicines to treat or prevent organ transplant rejection.

If you are using any of these medications, you may not be able to receive the vaccine, or may need to wait until the other treatments are finished." 

 

"severe weakness or unusual feeling in your arms and legs (may occur 2 to 4 weeks after you receive the vaccine); "

And where does it say he suffered any of these symptoms? This wasn't in any article I read.  Again, you are just grasping at any straw you can to blame the vaccine when in reality it was the flu that killed him.  His mother, doctors, medical professionals all said he died FROM THE FLU.  Are you really trying to argue that you know more about his cause of death that his doctors and parents?  Wow.  


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#32 of 40 Old 01-06-2014, 03:38 PM
 
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From the article on the Oregon boy:

 

"I think it's a good way to keep his memory alive, to get his story out and let it be known that vaccination or not, if your child has a fever and flu like symptoms, they need to be seen by a doctor. That's something my son would agree with I think, to help other people."

 

I think it is a fair message.  Vaccinated or not, you can get the flu.

I also think, particularly given the flu vaccines less than stellar efficacy rate, we need to focus on non-vaccine ways to prevent the flu and how to treat it properly if you get it.


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#33 of 40 Old 01-06-2014, 04:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

I don't have much time to respond but first of all, my response was to your assertion that his parents might have contracted the flu from his flumist shedding.  You said "​If it was the flu MIST, that is known to CAUSE flu...and it could certainly have been the source of infection for his parents, if they came down with it a week or two after he was given FluMist."  

 

Second of all, you put a period after "Flumist may interact with steroids" when there isn't one on RXlist.com.  What it says is "Children or teens should not take aspirin for 4 weeks after getting FluMist. FluMist may interact with steroids, medications to treat psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, or other autoimmune disorders, or medications to treat autoimmune disorders. Tell your doctor all medications and supplements you take and other vaccines you have recently received." http://www.rxlist.com/flumist-side-effects-drug-center.htm

 

It doesn't say anywhere that I could find that steroids should not be given a month after the flumist, just that they shouldn't be taken in conjunction/right before the vaccine. The reason is that steroids weaken the immune system.  So I would like a link/some evidence that giving a steroid a month after the flumist is contraindicated. 

 

"Before receiving FluMist, tell the doctor about all other vaccines you have recently received.

Also tell the doctor if you have recently received drugs or treatments that can weaken the immune system, including:

  • an oral, nasal, inhaled, or injectable steroid medicine;

  • medications to treat psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, or other autoimmune disorders; or

  • medicines to treat or prevent organ transplant rejection.

If you are using any of these medications, you may not be able to receive the vaccine, or may need to wait until the other treatments are finished." 

 

"severe weakness or unusual feeling in your arms and legs (may occur 2 to 4 weeks after you receive the vaccine); "

And where does it say he suffered any of these symptoms? This wasn't in any article I read.  Again, you are just grasping at any straw you can to blame the vaccine when in reality it was the flu that killed him.  His mother, doctors, medical professionals all said he died FROM THE FLU.  Are you really trying to argue that you know more about his cause of death that his doctors and parents?  Wow.  

I'm saying that the manufacturer admits that the vaccine can have adverse effects 2-4 weeks AFTER the vaccine is given, and that it can have interactions with steroids, and other things as well.  Unusual weakness in arms and legs?  That sounds like a neurological reaction. Are you such an expert that you can be absolutely sure that those interactions can't EVER take place 2-4 weeks post-vaccination?

 

I'm saying that giving steroids to a child whose immune system is already not dealing effectively with flu symptoms may be malpractice, because inhibiting or shutting off the immune system right when the immune system needs to be fighting a virus is not going to have a happy ending.  


I'm saying that we don't know what role the flu vaccine played in his death.  Don't try to turn it on me--you're the one who said  "The vaccine certainly didn't cause him to die."

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#34 of 40 Old 01-06-2014, 07:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 

I'm saying that giving steroids to a child whose immune system is already not dealing effectively with flu symptoms may be malpractice, because inhibiting or shutting off the immune system right when the immune system needs to be fighting a virus is not going to have a happy ending.  

The doses of oral steroids that are typically given to help with respiratory inflammation aren't really high enough to cause much immunosuppression. There could theoretically be a bit, but the benefits to breathing are probably considered to outweigh the immune drawbacks in this situation. I doubt this would be malpractice. 

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#35 of 40 Old 01-07-2014, 08:13 AM
 
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I doubt this would be malpractice. 

I doubt it's helpful to misdiagnose, and send someone home from the ER - sounds a lot like the recent case in Wales of the young man that was also sent home from the ER and misdiagnosed when he really had measles- he also later died from improper care. 

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#36 of 40 Old 01-07-2014, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm saying that we don't know what role the flu vaccine played in his death.  Don't try to turn it on me--you're the one who said  "The vaccine certainly didn't cause him to die."

 

Yes we do, because we know his cause of death.  He didn't die from "unknown causes".  His doctors, medical professionals, and family have confirmed that he died from the H1N1 virus.  The statement is not "It is suspected that he died from H1N1". That is what he died from, end of story.  Since we know the vaccine cannot give him H1N1 we know that the vaccine played no role in his death.  Again, are you really trying to argue that you know more about the circumstances of his death than his doctors and parents? 


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#37 of 40 Old 01-07-2014, 11:33 AM
 
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Yes we do, because we know his cause of death.  He didn't die from "unknown causes".  His doctors, medical professionals, and family have confirmed that he died from the H1N1 virus.  The statement is not "It is suspected that he died from H1N1". That is what he died from, end of story.  Since we know the vaccine cannot give him H1N1 we know that the vaccine played no role in his death.  Again, are you really trying to argue that you know more about the circumstances of his death than his doctors and parents?

 

As it has been pointed out, it's the presumption that the vaccine played absolutely no part in his death that is objectionable.  I'm not saying it caused his death, and I don't think anybody else is saying the vaccine caused his death, but we don't know for absolutely certain that his flu vax didn't play a part in his death.  Personally, I wonder if he would have received proper diagnosis, and proper treatment, sooner if he hadn't had a flu vaccine.  It's not very common for a five-year-old with access to medical care to die from the flu, so it's not unreasonable to speculate about what could have contributed, even in a minor way, to his death.

 

ETA: Also, the article that Turquesa linked to up-thread (http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2010/04/new-canadian-studies-suggest-seasonal-flu-shot-increased-h1n1-risk) seems applicable.  It's hard to say what factor(s) made this kid's symptoms deadly, instead of just very serious.

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#38 of 40 Old 01-07-2014, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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As it has been pointed out, it's the presumption that the vaccine played absolutely no part in his death that is objectionable.  I'm not saying it caused his death, and I don't think anybody else is saying the vaccine caused his death, but we don't know for absolutely certain that his flu vax didn't play a part in his death.  Personally, I wonder if he would have received proper diagnosis, and proper treatment, sooner if he hadn't had a flu vaccine.  It's not very common for a five-year-old with access to medical care to die from the flu, so it's not unreasonable to speculate about what could have contributed, even in a minor way, to his death.

 

ETA: Also, the article that Turquesa linked to up-thread (http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2010/04/new-canadian-studies-suggest-seasonal-flu-shot-increased-h1n1-risk) seems applicable.  It's hard to say what factor(s) made this kid's symptoms deadly, instead of just very serious.

 

Just a quick reply because this is getting silly. 

 

"I'm not saying it caused his death, and I don't think anybody else is saying the vaccine caused his death..."  So we agree then.  Because that was my exact statement as pointed out by Taximom "The vaccine certainly didn't cause him to die."

 

It's like if somewhere in an article the mother says "He was just fine a few days earlier. He was eating pasta and bread sticks and acting completely normal"  and then someone asked " Does the fact that he ate pasta and bread sticks worry you?"  and I replied "Why would that worry me? He certainly didn't die because he ate pasta and bread sticks. He died from the flu."  And then the response was "How do you know that?! It could have played some role. Maybe he picked up the flu virus while at the grocery store with his mom getting the tomato sauce and noodles!"   While that may be true, it doesn't change the fact that the pasta and bread sticks did not *cause* him to die.  He died from the flu. 

 

There is absolutely *no* evidence that the flu vaccine caused his death, which was my original statement. 

 

As far as the article, did you even read it?  It wasn't exactly glowing.  "But the authors warn that, since all four studies were observational, even careful design cannot rule out the possibility that some undetected methodologic bias affected the results. That caution is echoed in a companion editorial, written by US researchers unconnected to the Canadian study, who cite the contradictory results of six other studies conducted in Mexico, Australia, and the United States at the same time as the Canadian ones. Four of those studies found no association between seasonal flu vaccination and pandemic flu illness, while the two done in Mexico paradoxically found that seasonal flu shots may have had a protective effect."

 

This is a pretty classic example of the cherry picking fallacy.  Also, the article was talking about injected flu vaccines, not nasal spray. 


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#39 of 40 Old 01-07-2014, 12:39 PM
 
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Teacozy, you're missing the point.

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#40 of 40 Old 01-07-2014, 01:10 PM
 
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Teacozy, you're missing the point.

:laugh


 

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