Another industry whistleblower--this time, it's for Wyeth's Prevnar vaccine - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 62 Old 02-04-2014, 05:25 PM
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One last question, how is it my children have survived if all these horrible pathogens are waiting around every corner to strike them down. Them being unvaccinated and all?

It makes me wonder if according to this line of thinking, IF you don't vaccinate you have no chance of survival? WOW, didn't know that, makes me wonder how we did make it without vaccine in the first place headscratch.gif……….and for those who can not be vaccinated for medical reason, they are doomed anyway-correct?

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#32 of 62 Old 02-04-2014, 06:36 PM
 
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I think I understand what's going on here........Rexeldexel must have heard that many non-vaccinating parents in the USA are claiming religious waivers. Naturally, this means that they are all religious and ignorant of science, right?

 

Newsflash: A person can believe in God, and still understand science. Do you know there is a concept called "theistic evolution"? 

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 Theistic evolutiontheistic evolutionism or evolutionary creationism are the views that hold that religious teachings about God are compatible with modern scientific understanding about biological evolution.

 

I'm not speaking for anybody else, and I'm not judging anybody's faith. I just want you to know that you are misinformed about the majority of non-vaccinating Americans. I'm curious as to where you found your information. 

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Somebody needs to learn about the US constitution and laws. It predates Darwin.

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#35 of 62 Old 02-04-2014, 08:02 PM
 
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Don't you believe your children are at risk of disease? Or your community?


Do you have anything to say about the original post?

~~For instance, Wyeth failed to reveal that in 2003, FDA inspectors found so many quality-control failings at the Prevnar packaging plant in Pearl River, NY, that production was shutdown at the site. Among the many problems listed in FDA reports, inspectors described dirty work areas, sloppy operating procedures, contamination, improper environmental monitoring and insects in a hallway outside the room where vials were filled with the vaccine."

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#36 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 01:11 AM
 
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You do realize we are made up of 
more microbes than human cells and that we couldn't survived with out our microbiome?  It might be useful if you could explain your understanding of  'diseases' because it appears we are light years apart in our understanding of health and healing. So at this point, I can't see that I can waste any more of my time discussing this with you.


One last question, how is it my children have survived if all these horrible pathogens are waiting around every corner to strike them down. Them being unvaccinated and all?
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I think I understand what's going on here........Rexeldexel must have heard that many non-vaccinating parents in the USA are claiming religious waivers. Naturally, this means that they are all religious and ignorant of science, right?

Newsflash: A person can believe in God, and still understand science. Do you know there is a concept called "theistic evolution"? 

I'm not speaking for anybody else, and I'm not judging anybody's faith. I just want you to know that you are misinformed about the majority of non-vaccinating Americans. I'm curious as to where you found your information. 


I'm not talking about a religious belief. Evolution is basic science, as is the theory of gravity. I agree that many religious people *believe* in evolution and I absolutely disagree that religious people are ignorant of science. For example, my local CofE priest (and good friend) gave me Richard Dawkin's book The Greatest Show on Earth and my parents (a medic and a science academic) are both religious. This is certainly not an exhaustive list of all the religious and scientific people I know, and they are not all from the same religious backgrounds. Even the pope accepts evolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution. Evolutionary theory and religious belief are not (necessarily) in conflict. I certainly do not have problem with people holding religious beliefs UNLESS the religious doctrine prevents the education of children in sound science. If the kids don't need the science, fine. But what if they grow up and want to make an informed decision about vaccination? If they have NOT been allowed to learn a basic principle of biology they are seriously disadvantaged when they try to look through the papers and articles and advice that is available. I'm sorry if this offends you.

I've never heard of religious waivers beckybird.

Apple juice: Evolution has been operating for long time before the american continent was even formed, let alone the constitution.

Mirzam: Are you thinking I'm afraid of microbes? Of course I'm aware that our bodies have a rich flora of bacteria and that this is necessary and desirable. Do you know WHY microbes "want" to live in our bodies?

Your children have survived for many reasons which will include genetics, diet, exposure to toxins, I won't make an exhaustive list. Firstly "horrible pathogens" are not "waiting around every corner to strike them down". This would imply some sort of purpose or intent. Actually, what our immune systems consider as "horrible" changes over time because our immunity adapts to changing pathogens, and vice versa. This IS evolution.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/31/states-laws-challenge-teaching-evolution
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/12/new-anti-science-assault-us-schools
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2005/01/31/evolution-american-education
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/30/us-usa-poll-evolution-idUSBRE9BT0LC20131230
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#37 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 01:14 AM
 
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Do you have anything to say about the original post?
~~For instance, Wyeth failed to reveal that in 2003, FDA inspectors found so many quality-control failings at the Prevnar packaging plant in Pearl River, NY, that production was shutdown at the site. Among the many problems listed in FDA reports, inspectors described dirty work areas, sloppy operating procedures, contamination, improper environmental monitoring and insects in a hallway outside the room where vials were filled with the vaccine."

Hi littlec

no, I don't at the moment but will be back on the thread if I have anything on topic to write smile.gif
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#38 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 06:11 AM
 
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Mirzam: Are you thinking I'm afraid of microbes? Of course I'm aware that our bodies have a rich flora of bacteria and that this is necessary and desirable. Do you know WHY microbes "want" to live in our bodies?

Your children have survived for many reasons which will include genetics, diet, exposure to toxins, I won't make an exhaustive list. Firstly "horrible pathogens" are not "waiting around every corner to strike them down". This would imply some sort of purpose or intent. Actually, what our immune systems consider as "horrible" changes over time because our immunity adapts to changing pathogens, and vice versa. This IS evolution.

 

 

Yes, I do know WHY, but I would be curious to hear what YOU think why microbes want to 'live' (viruses are not alive) in our body. If my children can live without vaccines, why not others, if they do as we do as a family?

 

An slightly off topic quesiton for you pertaining to evolution. Can you tell me what causes autism and why it has become an epidemic within a generation? How does a species 'evolve' within 30 years? 

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#39 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 07:05 AM
 
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 Somebody needs to learn about the US constitution and laws. It predates Darwin.

 

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 Apple juice: Evolution has been operating for long time before the american continent was even formed, let alone the constitution.

You ignored my point, conveniently.

 

I thought you came here for clarification of your confusion regarding the non-vaccination side of the issue. You are preaching to us instead.

Please learn to spell; you said you admired our spelling skills in your earliest posts. That is NOT how I spell my user name. It is right there. Copy it the way it is; it is a name and I spell it the way I want. And please capitalize the A in America. It is not a continent, it is a nation, you know, the USA, on the continent of North America shared with Canada and Mexico.

 

I was referring, and I think you know it, to laws and constitution as it pertains to education in these United States. You keep saying that Evolution is not taught here, but Evolution is taught by judicial fiat and codified in each state curriculum framework. For someone who claims to be so educated and so well traveled, you seem to know very little about the American system of government outside of "what you have heard" from others, yet you feel free to repeatedly chastize the American educational system for not teaching Evolution; please check the credentials and motives of people who spread unfounded rumors. The universities of the USA are full of foreign students paying full tuition because our educational system excels; these foreign students DO NOT come thousands of miles to pay full tuition to learn Creationism or Intelligent Design.

Excellent question: what of evolution and the exponential rise of autism? Are we witnessing a new transmutation of the species competing for survival in our generation?

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#40 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 07:22 AM
 
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 Hi littlec

no, I don't at the moment but will be back on the thread if I have anything on topic to write smile.gif

Then before you took this thread off topic, YOU should have started another thread.

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#41 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 07:36 AM
 
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 I only meant that the risk with not vaccinating is if a vaccine preventable disease enters the community you are vulnerable to it, and the community is also more vulnerable to it.

If this community is up-to-date on all of its vaccines according to the recommended schedules and these vaccines work the way the drug companies and government claim they do, how is a fully vaccinated community vulnerable to this "vaccine preventable" disease entering the community?

 

I know I am vulnerable, but what of this fully vaccinated community?

 

If the community is vulnerable to a "vaccine preventable" disease that enters the community, why bother with vaccination if this puts them on the same immunity level as a non-vaccinated person?

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#42 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 08:28 AM
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If this community is up-to-date on all of its vaccines according to the recommended schedules and these vaccines work the way the drug companies and government claim they do, how is a fully vaccinated community vulnerable to this "vaccine preventable" disease entering the community?

 

I know I am vulnerable, but what of this fully vaccinated community?

 

If the community is vulnerable to a "vaccine preventable" disease that enters the community, why bother with vaccination if this puts them on the same immunity level as a non-vaccinated person?

exactly! 

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#43 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 08:35 AM
 
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Yes, I do know WHY, but I would be curious to hear what YOU think why microbes want to 'live' (viruses are not alive) in our body. If my children can live without vaccines, why not others, if they do as we do as a family?

 

An slightly off topic quesiton for you pertaining to evolution. Can you tell me what causes autism and why it has become an epidemic within a generation? How does a species 'evolve' within 30 years? 

 

Are you suggesting that autistic people are a new species???

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How many times will people have to bring up babies too young for vaccination, or people unable to be vaccinated due to health reasons? We can even add in the children of vaccine refuses (even if you don't want me to - I still hope they never get exposed to vpds).

All of these people are potentially harmed by others decisions to not vaccinate.
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#45 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 09:13 AM
 
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Are you suggesting that autistic people are a new species???

No I am not. But many in the neurodiversity movement believe autism is an evolution of a kind.

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#46 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 09:21 AM
 
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No I am not. But many in the neurodiversity movement believe autism is an evolution of a kind.

I'm surprised there is a movement that thinks autistic people are *better adapted* to modern life, although the sliding scale of autism allows many interesting and wonderful people to exist and contribute uniquely to the world.

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I'm surprised there is a movement that thinks autistic people are *better adapted* to modern life, although the sliding scale of autism allows many interesting and wonderful people to exist and contribute uniquely to the world.

 

I think this might be related to the idea/perception that all scientists are on the autism spectrum (although I suppose on a spectrum from zero to the most autistic person in the world we're all on it…), and that autistic people are often very good at maths, or music…. I have no personal opinion or evidence to share on this, but it is something I've heard discussed. 


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How many times will people have to bring up babies too young for vaccination, or people unable to be vaccinated due to health reasons? We can even add in the children of vaccine refuses (even if you don't want me to - I still hope they never get exposed to vpds).

All of these people are potentially harmed by others decisions to not vaccinate.

AND just how many here are doing this?       .3% ? 

 

Want to compare that to the failure rate of vaccines and lead others to think this is some massive amount of people not vaccinating? 

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#49 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 09:40 AM
 
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I think this might be related to the idea/perception that all scientists are on the autism spectrum (although I suppose on a spectrum from zero to the most autistic person in the world we're all on it…), and that autistic people are often very good at maths, or music…. I have no personal opinion or evidence to share on this, but it is something I've heard discussed. 

Yes, I don't know much about autism but I have often heard the same things said. My local GP is an active researcher in genomics and had apparently been looking at the genetic linkage between schizophrenia and creativity. I would love to know more about these links. 

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#50 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 09:41 AM
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I think this might be related to the idea/perception that all scientists are on the autism spectrum (although I suppose on a spectrum from zero to the most autistic person in the world we're all on it…), and that autistic people are often very good at maths, or music…. I have no personal opinion or evidence to share on this, but it is something I've heard discussed. 

it's that super rare percentage that is good at math, music, etc? that super tiny group

 

here in the US our schools are now filled with autistic children that need one on one care and can't even hope to do math or music, etc., they need hands on daily help with everything - it's much larger percentage 

 

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I'm surprised there is a movement that thinks autistic people are *better adapted* to modern life, although the sliding scale of autism allows many interesting and wonderful people to exist and contribute uniquely to the world.

you almost make it sound like parents should hope to have autistic children

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it's that super rare percentage that is good at math, music, etc? that super tiny group

 

here in the US our schools are now filled with autistic children that need one on one care and can't even hope to do math or music, etc., the need hands on daily help with everything - it's much larger percentage 

 

you almost make it sound like parents should hope to have autistic children

There are many autistic children in the world who are loved although I'm sure that the challenges you describe must be tough. Nobody actually knows how many people are subclinically autistic.

 

You talk about autistic children as if they were disgusting to you in some way which is an attitude I cannot understand. . 

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There are many autistic children in the world who are loved although I'm sure that the challenges you describe must be tough. Nobody actually knows how many people are subclinically autistic.

 

You talk about autistic children as if they were disgusting to you in some way which is an attitude I cannot understand. . 

What is sub-clinical autism? 

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#53 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 09:56 AM
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There are many autistic children in the world who are loved although I'm sure that the challenges you describe must be tough. Nobody actually knows how many people are subclinically autistic.

 

You talk about autistic children as if they were disgusting to you in some way which is an attitude I cannot understand. . you are so far off base here - you apparently did not understand what I wrote - that is offensive to accuse me of!

you really do not get at all what I posted! you are inaccurate and extremely misguided! 

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#54 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 09:57 AM
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There are many autistic children in the world who are loved although I'm sure that the challenges you describe must be tough. Nobody actually knows how many people are subclinically autistic.

 

You talk about autistic children as if they were disgusting to you in some way which is an attitude I cannot understand. . 

you lack of understanding regarding autism is abundantly clear-IMO

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#55 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 10:04 AM
 
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you really do not get at all what I posted! you are inaccurate and extremely misguided! 

Would it be possible for you to reword or explain what you actually meant?
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AND just how many here are doing this?       .3% ? 

Want to compare that to the failure rate of vaccines and lead others to think this is some massive amount of people not vaccinating? 

The fraction totally unvaccinated is irrelevant here. Not all vaccines are the same, and not all vpds are the same either. We need the fraction un- or under-vaccinated for each vpd separately, and we need to compare that to how easy the vpd is transmitted.

But we've discussed all that before.
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Would it be possible for you to reword or explain what you actually meant?

how much do you even know about autism?

 

apparently you are not that effected by those who are not in the tiny percentage that are high functioning 

 

you lack of understanding from what you have written is offensive 

 

do you have any understand how many children with autism have not only sever mental challenges but tons and tons of physical ailments?

 

you seem to think this scale is somehow so large and you make it seem exactly as like I put it!

 

many have duel issues that cause life threading health problems, you come off as crass 

 

 

here for starters, maybe you can grasp how rude your comments come across, please do some reading (there is a lot more)  - http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html  

 

 

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I'm surprised there is a movement that thinks autistic people are *better adapted* to modern life, although the sliding scale of autism allows many interesting and wonderful people to exist and contribute uniquely to the world.

you almost make it sound like parents should hope to have autistic children -------- as if it's no big deal - know any personally that have a child who is severe? Have you seen any with regression? Ever know a teacher that deals with a class room of sever autistic children?

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The fraction totally unvaccinated is irrelevant here. Not all vaccines are the same, and not all vpds are the same either. We need the fraction un- or under-vaccinated for each vpd separately, and we need to compare that to how easy the vpd is transmitted.

But we've discussed all that before.

yes we have and it's SUPER tiny yet you make a mountain out of a mole hill to fit an agenda :rotflmao 

 

yea, what's that number???? :lol 

 

IRL I am off to :lurk and YES, it's GMO free

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#59 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 10:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
 

how much do you even know about autism?

 

apparently you are not that effected by those who are not in the tiny percentage that are high functioning 

 

 

 

 

From your own link "

  • The majority (62%) of children the ADDM Network identified as having ASDs did not have intellectual disability (intelligence quotient <=70). [Read article]" 

 

So according to that link, the majority are high functioning. 

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#60 of 62 Old 02-05-2014, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

From your own link "
  • The majority (62%) of children the ADDM Network identified as having ASDs did not have intellectual disability (intelligence quotient <=70). [Read article
    ]" 



 



So according to that link, the majority are high functioning. 



teacozy, you are under some very strange misunderstanding about autism.

Those of us who have lived with or who work with autistic children know that the term "high functioning" has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence level. Profoundly autistic children can be extremely intelligent by any standard--and still not be potty-trained, have speech, or be able to function like a neurotypical child. These children usually have severe neurological and other physical issues: severe intestinal disorders (usually partially responsible for the difficulty toilet-training), vestibular disorders, and autoimmune issues. THEY CANT FUNCTION AT A HIGH LEVEL, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with their intelligence.
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