Vaccines don't make money.... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 34 Old 01-30-2014, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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....and the pharmaceutical companies purely offer them for humanitarian reasons?

 

Pfizer pins hopes on vaccine data to kick-start revenue growth.

 

Looks like they are getting closer with a Staphylococcus aureus vaccine:

 

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Talking to investors following the release of fourth quarter results, Pfizer CEO Ian Read said the company will present data from Phase II trials of its Staphylococcus aureus and meningococcal B vaccines later this year. The S. aureus trial wrapped up last year and Read hinted he is happy with the data, saying there are "encouraging signals" that the vaccine generates a positive immune response. Pfizer expects to present the data at a medical conference this year and advance to late phase trials.

 

The market for the vaccine is worth in the region of $4 billion - hardly peanuts. 

 

Merck's pulled its S. aureus vaccine (bolding mine):

 

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Less than four years ago Merck ($MRK) was talking up the change in antibody levels in patients who received its S. aureus vaccine candidate in a Phase II study. Merck advanced into late-stage trials on the strength of the data, but pulled the plug in 2011 after an interim analysis suggested the vaccine was ineffective. Worse still, it was associated with multiple organ failure and death. Pfizer still faces competition from GlaxoSmithKline ($GSK), Novartis ($NVS) and Sanofi ($SNY) though.



 


FierceVaccines http://www.fiercevaccines.com/story/pfizer-pins-hopes-vaccine-data-kickstart-revenue-growth/2014-01-30#ixzz2ruVfXBd2 
 

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#2 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 02:56 AM
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Yes. Vaccines do bring in a lot of money when you only look at the 'gross income.'

But I am quite curious why you do not look at the 'net income.'

The net, being actually, a loss of money. After paying all the scientists that develop the vaccine and paying to get the vaccine past FDA standards (which takes billions of dollars to do), the net amount of money for vaccines is actually a loss.

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#3 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 06:33 AM
 
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The net, being actually, a loss of money. After paying all the scientists that develop the vaccine and paying to get the vaccine past FDA standards (which takes billions of dollars to do), the net amount of money for vaccines is actually a loss.

:laugh

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#4 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The net, being actually, a loss of money. After paying all the scientists that develop the vaccine and paying to get the vaccine past FDA standards (which takes billions of dollars to do), the net amount of money for vaccines is actually a loss.

 

Poor wittle pharmaceutical corporations. bawling.gif


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#5 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 08:35 AM
 
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(which takes billions of dollars to do), the net amount of money for vaccines is actually a loss.

Do you have a source for this? If this is true, why do you think they still make vaccines at a loss?

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#6 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Do you have a source for this? If this is true, why do you think they still make vaccines at a loss?

Because the wove us soooo much. :throb

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#7 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 08:44 AM
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Do you have a source for this? If this is true, why do you think they still make vaccines at a loss?

Government ordered them to.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/10/17/141429853/vaccinations-can-be-money-losers-for-doctors

In fact, preventative medicine such as vaccines is WAY less of a money maker than.. say... if the person gets really sick and must be admitted to a hospital.

For example.. If we had socialized medicine, people would see the doctor quite a bit more and find out a problem and nip that problem in the butt WAY BEFORE it becomes a serious issue and costs lots of money in hospital visits. Surgery, for example, costs a LOT of money to do. Surgeons earn around 400,000-700,000 a year per surgeon. But if the individual instead... ran... and exercised, they may not have needed that expensive heart surgery which costs $787,700 according to http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0310/top-10-most-expensive-medical-procedures.aspx. So again. Preventative medicine is way cheaper. If big pharma were out to get people, you'd think they wouldn't be interested at all in preventative medicine. You'd think doctors would never tell people to exercise to prevent heart disease or to lose weight. Doctors would maniacally wait for their "patients" to get REALLY sick then con them into surgery which is what brings in the bank. This just doesn't happen though.

Vaccines are a cheap way to get preventative medicine. Not everything is about money.
 

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#8 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 08:58 AM
 
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Your link was about doctors losing money, not pharmaceutical companies.

 

It would be nice if people exercised more, but as long as they continue to eat toxic crap food, they will be at risk. The food in the US is horrendous--full of pesticides, artificial dyes and ingredients, chemicals, devoid of nutrients, etc. Common modern wheat contains much more gluten than before, and many people are sensitive and suffer from this alone! We are in a sad situation, the American diet is "SAD". Doctors are not as educated in nutrition as I would like. Preventative medicine should have a foundation in nutrition and biochemistry, but that is not the case with our current system. We are in the rut of a drug-based, reductionist system. The entire medical system, from the ground up, needs an update!

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#9 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 09:10 AM
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Except no amount of exercise can procure antibodies against specific viral infections.

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#10 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Except no amount of exercise can procure antibodies against specific viral infections.

 

That's why we have natural immunity. 

 

[v]accination does not engage the genuine mechanism of immunity. Vaccination typically engages the immune response—that is, everything that immunologists would theoretically “want” to see being engaged in the immune system. But apparently this is not enough to confer robust protection that matches natural immunity. Our knowledge of the immune system is far from being complete.” Dr Tetyana Obukhanych Ph.D

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#11 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 09:20 AM
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That's why we have natural immunity. ​

Natural immunity is inefficient. There is a lagging period between proliferation and the production of antibodies to fight off the disease. By the time you get an appropriate amount of antibodies, the disease is already running rampant in your system making it much harder to fight off.

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#12 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Natural immunity is inefficient. There is a lagging period between proliferation and the production of antibodies to fight off the disease. By the time you get an appropriate amount of antibodies, the disease is already running rampant in your system making it much harder to fight off.

 

No natural immunity is not inefficient, it is perfectly designed. Are you are proponent of transhumanism by chance?

 

As a biologist you must understand we have two arms to our immune system - cell-mediated and humoral. Vaccination is merely the attempt to stimulate the antibodies to without a cell-mediated response. This results in inferior immunity and can cause many, many other problems like auto immune disease. The symptoms you call sickness and feel are undesirable are products of the cell-mediated immune system, they are healing symptoms, it is not the virus that cause the symptoms, they are from our own immune system. When you suppress these symptoms with steroids for example, then a person can be infected with a virus, but don't get sick, but they are still infected.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#13 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 09:58 AM
 
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We've done this "how much money do vaccines make pharmaceutical companies" so many times on here. For anyone hearing this argument for the first time I suggest a search on the forum for great links with actual facts in them (dollar amounts etc.)

Bottom line us that compared to other medicines they are not a big money maker.
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#14 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 10:16 AM
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No natural immunity is not inefficient, it is perfectly designed. Are you are proponent of transhumanism by chance?



Perfectly designed?

Uh. No. There is no design in our immune system and it's by far not perfect. Organisms evolve to try to get us sick. Our immune system evolves to try to fight off invaders. This war of attrition continues on and on. This is why our immune system is often inefficient. If our immune system was perfect, no one would catch any disease ever.

The problem with you guys is that you've never experienced the disease it prevents against first hand and thus perceive the situation differently. It's a double edged sword. On one hand, we figured out a way to stop these diseases. On the other hand, people eventually lost the reference point of why we were vaccinating in the first place which is bringing back diseases that were once no longer present in the 1st world population.

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If you think our bodies are the way they are because they were designed to work perfectly, please stop trying to use evolutionary theory to bolster your arguments. You don't get it.
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#16 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Perfectly designed?

Uh. No. There is no design in our immune system and it's by far not perfect. Organisms evolve to try to get us sick. Our immune system evolves to try to fight off invaders. This war of attrition continues on and on. This is why our immune system is often inefficient. If our immune system was perfect, no one would catch any disease ever.

The problem with you guys is that you've never experienced the disease it prevents against first hand and thus perceive the situation differently. It's a double edged sword. On one hand, we figured out a way to stop these diseases. On the other hand, people eventually lost the reference point of why we were vaccinating in the first place which is bringing back diseases that were once no longer present in the 1st world population.

 

This is complete garbage, okay, I'll be nice, fantasy.

 

And yes, I have experienced these diseases first hand, survived them all, no big deal. You are again parroting vaxganda, You do realize that most of the outbreaks of vaccine available disease are in vaccinated populations - eg, my daughter's high school had a whooping cough outbreak of 48 kids, 97% were completely vaccinated, including having 7th grad DTap booster. Do you know that we are experiencing a outbreaks of atypical measles, as a direct result of the vaccine?

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#17 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If you think our bodies are the way they are because they were designed to work perfectly, please stop trying to use evolutionary theory to bolster your arguments. You don't get it.

Are you talking to me? You have no idea what my thoughts are on evolution, I have never discussed it here. It is you that don't get it.

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So evolutionary theory is a fantasy, now?

Haha!

 

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You do realize that most of the outbreaks of vaccine available disease are in vaccinated populations -
 

Even IF this were true, we have to take into account the harshness of the infection and how deadly it is. Vaccines severely reduce the harm diseases can cause.

 

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#19 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So evolutionary theory is a fantasy, now?

Haha!

 

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You do realize that most of the outbreaks of vaccine available disease are in vaccinated populations -
 

Even IF this were true, we have to take into account the harshness of the infection and how deadly it is. Vaccines severely reduce the harm diseases can cause.

 

Nice try. Our immune system, is a perfect system which adapts to our environment. Until it gets trashed by vaccines, environmental toxins, GMOs and pharmaceutical drugs.

 

I will also add, that our immune system is also hampered by poor nutrition (scurvy, rickets as examples), and stress.

 

It is true.

 

What infection precisely ? I have already told you that the symptoms of illness are caused by our cell-mediate immune system, not from a pathogen, they are healing symptoms. Vaccines do not reduce the harm diseases can cause, they merely suppress and cause havoc to are natural immune system. Vaccines wage war on natural immunity.

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 is a perfect system which adapts to our environment

Is this why Small pox wiped out native americans?

 

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GMOs

Trangenic engineering is actually what I am interested in as a specialty of mine and EVERYTHING is GMO. Nature commits to a natural form of GMO known as HGT and HGT (horizontal gene transfer) occurs all the time. Various agrobacteria pick up DNA from one species and transfers it to another species. Viruses do the same thing. All scientists do is try to predict the outcome of a focused HGT transfer. So it's a lot safer than the 'random' transfer that occurs in nature all the time.

Poor nutrition CAN lower our immune system, but perfect nutrition does not make us into supermen. There is only so much vitamin C your body can contain. The rest washes out in urine.

 

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Vaccines wage war on natural immunity.

Is this why vaccines increase our life expectancy?

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#21 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Trangenic engineering is actually what I am interested in as a specialty of mine and EVERYTHING is GMO. Nature commits to a natural form of GMO known as HGT and HGT (horizontal gene transfer) occurs all the time. Various agrobacteria pick up DNA from one species and transfers it to another species. Viruses do the same thing. All scientists do is try to predict the outcome of a focused HGT transfer. So it's a lot safer than the 'random' transfer that occurs in nature all the time.

Poor nutrition CAN lower our immune system, but perfect nutrition does not make us into supermen. There is only so much vitamin C your body can contain. The rest washes out in urine.
 

 

You like to play "God' huh?

 

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Is this why vaccines increase our life expectancy?

 

Really? Where's the proof it was vaccines? 

 

#pro-vaccine playbook

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#23 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 12:30 PM
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*sigh* Someone who disagrees with what you're saying and refutes you does not a troll make.

 

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Where did you learn about immunology Mirzam? 

 

It's so weird reading these threads because it's like the pro-vaccinators are talking a totally different language to the non-vaccinators.

 

Maybe this is why there is so much animosity between the parties in the wider world eg fb (if that can be classed as the wider world LOL)

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*sigh* Someone who disagrees with what you're saying and refutes you does not a troll make.

 

 

You are correct.

 

I would like to use your own words to challenge you to cease your double standard.   You need to understand that someone who has had a different experience than you have had with vaccines and vaccine reactions (and perhaps different knowledge as well) had does not an ignorant person make. 

 

We won't treat you like a troll if you don't treat us like we are ignorant.

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Where did you learn about immunology Mirzam? 

 

It's so weird reading these threads because it's like the pro-vaccinators are talking a totally different language to the non-vaccinators.

 

 


Can you explain more about this "totally different language?"

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#27 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 06:36 PM
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Taximom. There is this concept known as 'statistics.'

Statistically, the people who are harmed from vaccines is far far far lower than the amount of people who died from the diseases that vaccines protect against. Even if 1 person had a bad vaccine reaction, 100,000 others wouldn't.

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#28 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 07:23 PM
 
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Taximom. There is this concept known as 'statistics.'

Statistically, the people who are harmed from vaccines is far far far lower than the amount of people who died from the diseases that vaccines protect against. Even if 1 person had a bad vaccine reaction, 100,000 others wouldn't.

 

Lol, you haven't participated in many discussions of this sort, have you?  

 

I agree with you.  We're not going to win this argument though because there is a standard list of comebacks to it including that the statistics do not represent the real vaccine injury rate as most vaccine reactions go unreported, and that if you go to your doctor with something that is clearly a reaction they will insist it is just a coincidence, and that most modern vaccine trials test the vaccine against another vaccine rather than a "true placebo" which hides reactions since both vaccines could be causing the same ones, and some vaccine injuries don't show up for many many years after the vaccine that caused them, and, and, and... Oh, also, any study that shows a link between vaccines and diseases is worth paying attention to even if it is an internet survey which doesn't even show an increased risk of disease except the authors are twisting it to make it seem like it does by comparing unvaxed kids too young to be diagnosed with most conditions being discussed with the general population of older vaxed kids.  However, if a study shows no link between vaccines and various conditions such as autism or allergies, it is clearly deeply flawed in methodology and bad science overall. 

 

So basically, there is pretty much 0 chance you are going to change any minds of anyone you are discussing it with.  It's still nice to have the discussion though just to prevent it from being a complete echo chamber and to provide a bit of balance for lukers and people who stumble in from Google. 

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#29 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 07:43 PM
 
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Taximom. There is this concept known as 'statistics.'

Statistically, the people who are harmed from vaccines is far far far lower than the amount of people who died from the diseases that vaccines protect against. Even if 1 person had a bad vaccine reaction, 100,000 others wouldn't.


#1)  We don't know how many people are harmed by vaccines, because there is no adequate reporting/tracking system. Currently, the indications are that severe adverse events are much higher than previously thought.

#2)  Ethically, we cannot mandate an invasive prophylactic procedure for healthy individuals if it harms even a small percentage; neither you nor anyone else has the right to determine what percentage is acceptable for "collateral damage" done by invasive prophylactic procedures.

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#30 of 34 Old 02-02-2014, 07:55 PM
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#1)  We don't know how many people are harmed by vaccines, because there is no adequate reporting/tracking system. Currently, the indications are that severe adverse events are much higher than previously thought.

I see a claim. A claim that lacks evidence.

 

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#2)  Ethically, we cannot mandate an invasive prophylactic procedure for healthy individuals if it harms even a small percentage; neither you nor anyone else has the right to determine what percentage is acceptable for "collateral damage" done by invasive prophylactic procedures.

By this logic, all medicine ought to be banned because you can never KNOW if a medicine will harm an individual or not, even if 100,000,000 people are shown to not be adversely affected.

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