A pediatrician's different perspective on why he doesn't accept unvaccinated children - Page 10 - Mothering Forums
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#271 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 12:32 PM
 
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It does take it a step further.....from someone who opposes something personally to someone who actively goes out of their way to show their opposition.

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#272 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It does take it a step further.....from someone who opposes something personally to someone who actively goes out of their way to show their opposition.

 

Well, thats news to me.  The term activist isn't negative in and of itself.  

 

Don't a lot of people who are against circumcision like being called "intactivists" for example? 


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#273 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 12:40 PM
 
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I'm not up on the circ lingo, but I do know that not one of his posts have been respectful in the naming department.  The mature thing to do would be to sit by and read a few threads and posts first to get the gist of how things are, test the waters so to speak.  But not jump right in with the insults.  I don't care what kind of info you are sharing, if you pepper it with insults it is not likely to met with open arms.  Kind of like telling someone you support them, BUT.....yah totally negates the compliment of support.  There's no need for debates to get dirty.

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#274 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 01:17 PM
 
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Well, thats news to me.  The term activist isn't negative in and of itself.  

 

Don't a lot of people who are against circumcision like being called "intactivists" for example? 


I think the difference is that intactivists want to actively discourage/stop people from circumcising anybody who can't/doesn't consent to the procedure.  Most people who don't vaccinate on schedule aren't actively trying to stop anybody who chooses to vaccinate to not vaccinate (yes, I know there are exceptions.)  and are only actively trying to preserve or gain the right to choose.

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#275 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 01:21 PM
 
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I think the difference is that intactivists want to actively discourage/stop people from circumcising anybody who can't/doesn't consent to the procedure.  Most people who don't vaccinate on schedule aren't actively trying to stop anybody who chooses to vaccinate to not vaccinate (yes, I know there are exceptions.)  and are only actively trying to preserve or gain the right to choose.

thanks.gif I knew there had to be better wording lol

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#276 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think the difference is that intactivists want to actively discourage/stop people from circumcising anybody who can't/doesn't consent to the procedure.  Most people who don't vaccinate on schedule aren't actively trying to stop anybody who chooses to vaccinate to not vaccinate (yes, I know there are exceptions.)  and are only actively trying to preserve or gain the right to choose.

 

Activism doesn't have to mean that you are trying to stop someone from doing something, though.  The online definition is "an especially activevigorous advocate of a cause, especially a political cause."

 

That cause could just be wanting more people to be aware of vaccine "dangers", or trying to get rid of exemptions etc.

 

In any case, I had no idea that being called an activist was offensive.  You learn something new everyday! 


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#277 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 02:02 PM
 
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Activism doesn't have to mean that you are trying to stop someone from doing something, though.  The online definition is "an especially activevigorous advocate of a cause, especially a political cause."

 

That cause could just be wanting more people to be aware of vaccine "dangers", or trying to get rid of exemptions etc.

 

In any case, I had no idea that being called an activist was offensive.  You learn something new everyday! 


You're right, most people on here are "activists" in one way or another, but not in the way that was being implied by the term "anti-vax activist", and let's face it, some of the statements involving that term were meant to be offensive.

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#278 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 02:50 PM
 
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I'm sorry if I offend everyone by saying anti-vax or anti-vaxxer.

 

"Anti-vax argument" seems more clear to me than "vaccine critical argument" because I consider everyone in this debate to be critical of vaccines-- as in critically considering their risks and/or usefulness. When I say "anti-vax" it's specifically someone who has argued against the use of vaccinations as a policy decision, not just as a personal choice.

Awkwardly dancing around these terms isn't going to make a demeaning remark any more polite, nor a fairly neutral mark any more nasty. Maybe it triggers something in the recipient, but the fact that we have a "pro-vax" side and an "anti-vax/nonvax/whatever" side is responsible for that, IMO. I sometimes have a gut reaction to statements against "pro-vax" but it's not because of the term, but the polarity, or the accusations made in that particular statement.

 

So I guess I just don't get it.

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#279 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 05:13 PM
 
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Anti-vax to me means against vaccines for everyone in every circumstance.

Non-vax is more of an umbrella term to describe someone who doesn't vax. A non-vaxxer may be anti-vax, or they may simply be against vaccine for their child for one of numerous reasons.
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#280 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 05:22 PM
 
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That's what I think. So I don't think I need to avoid the term anti-vax altogether when it makes the statement more specific to that group, rather than to those who simply refuse vaccines. Some arguments are distinctly anti-vax, and for the sake of simplicity, those who make those arguments I refer to as "anti-vax."

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#281 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 06:07 PM
 
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That's what I think. So I don't think I need to avoid the term anti-vax altogether when it makes the statement more specific to that group, rather than to those who simply refuse vaccines. Some arguments are distinctly anti-vax, and for the sake of simplicity, those who make those arguments I refer to as "anti-vax."

Right.  Except, I tried to say that those who argue for pro-compliance should be called pro-compliant but the pro-vax do not like that name and I am being disrespectful to call them a name they do not like.  Bah Humbug.

 

Non-vaxxers do not typically want to be called "anti-vax"  so unless they are very clearly making a "vaccines - never!" statement it is inappropriate.  I spend far too much time here, and very rarely see that argument.  Of course, whether someone is making a anti-vax argument or a pro-compliance argument is subjective  (indeed, we have had pages on whether someone who believes in strict school exemptions is pro-compliance)  - so we are back to who decides what terms to use - the speaker or the group being spoken about?

 

In any event, for your reading pleasure:

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1397155/the-term-pro-vax/20

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#282 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 06:58 PM
 
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 Some arguments are distinctly anti-vax, and for the sake of simplicity, those who make those arguments I refer to as "anti-vax."

 

Exactly what arguments would those be?

 

Some people are distinctly overweight, but I refrain for referring to them as, say, "the fat lady," even though it might be simpler than referring to them as "the woman in the blue dress, across the room and next to the door,"  particularly if I've been asked to refrain from using the term "fat lady."

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#283 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 09:11 PM
 
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Activism doesn't have to mean that you are trying to stop someone from doing something, though.  The online definition is "an especially activevigorous advocate of a cause, especially a political cause."

 

That cause could just be wanting more people to be aware of vaccine "dangers", or trying to get rid of exemptions etc.

 

In any case, I had no idea that being called an activist was offensive.  You learn something new everyday! 

I think it has to do with the  implied judgment on you that is being conferred by the term. Think about having someone use a term for you that you think is negative and, while used by some people to describe your position, doesn't match how you think of yourself. Then imagine them tacking "activist" onto the end. For instance, I am pro-choice. I would prefer to have my view on abortion described in that way. Some pro-lifers want to change pro-choice to pro-abortion. If that term is applied to me it makes me go "ah, come on, guys, you're misrepresenting me". If they were to then tack "activist" onto the end of it, it basically makes it worse... like "Now you want to call me not just pro-abortion but a pro-abortion ACTIVIST? Like I'm ... out there beating babies with protest signs or something?" Or something along those lines.

 

I'm having a hard time describing it, but I totally get that having "activist" tacked on the end of an obnoxious epithet somebody pinned on you makes that epithet sound even more obnoxious. On the other hand, I don't mind having "activist" added to a label I agree with for myself (although I'm not really much of an activist about anything, admittedly). 

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#284 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 09:16 PM
 
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I think it has to do with the  implied judgment on you that is being conferred by the term. Think about having someone use a term for you that you think is negative and, while used by some people to describe your position, doesn't match how you think of yourself. Then imagine them tacking "activist" onto the end. For instance, I am pro-choice. I would prefer to have my view on abortion described in that way. Some pro-lifers want to change pro-choice to pro-abortion. If that term is applied to me it makes me go "ah, come on, guys, you're misrepresenting me". If they were to then tack "activist" onto the end of it, it basically makes it worse... like "Now you want to call me not just pro-abortion but a pro-abortion ACTIVIST? Like I'm ... out there beating babies with protest signs or something?" Or something along those lines.

 

I'm having a hard time describing it, but I totally get that having "activist" tacked on the end of an obnoxious epithet somebody pinned on you makes that epithet sound even more obnoxious. On the other hand, I don't mind having "activist" added to a label I agree with for myself (although I'm not really much of an activist about anything, admittedly). 

 

I think you did a great job describing it.  Thank you for your sensitivity and understanding.

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#285 of 292 Old 03-25-2014, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think it has to do with the  implied judgment on you that is being conferred by the term. Think about having someone use a term for you that you think is negative and, while used by some people to describe your position, doesn't match how you think of yourself. Then imagine them tacking "activist" onto the end. For instance, I am pro-choice. I would prefer to have my view on abortion described in that way. Some pro-lifers want to change pro-choice to pro-abortion. If that term is applied to me it makes me go "ah, come on, guys, you're misrepresenting me". If they were to then tack "activist" onto the end of it, it basically makes it worse... like "Now you want to call me not just pro-abortion but a pro-abortion ACTIVIST? Like I'm ... out there beating babies with protest signs or something?" Or something along those lines.

 

I'm having a hard time describing it, but I totally get that having "activist" tacked on the end of an obnoxious epithet somebody pinned on you makes that epithet sound even more obnoxious. On the other hand, I don't mind having "activist" added to a label I agree with for myself (although I'm not really much of an activist about anything, admittedly). 

 

Thanks for explaining it that way, it makes a lot more sense. 


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If the terminology is really a big deal, maybe we can make a vocabulary and terminology post that's sticky at the top of the forum. Otherwise I imagine this will be an issue over and over again.

 

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Exactly what arguments would those be?

 

Some people are distinctly overweight, but I refrain for referring to them as, say, "the fat lady," even though it might be simpler than referring to them as "the woman in the blue dress, across the room and next to the door,"  particularly if I've been asked to refrain from using the term "fat lady."

 

Meh, if the majority of the forum doesn't want to be called anti-vax that's fine with me.I will stop and like I said, sorry if I offended.  I just see it differently. I'm not going to make a list of exact arguments, since I've already mentioned a few exact arguments in this thread a few posts back. Arguments in general that exactly implicate vaccines as dangerous, and vaccine policies as harmful. I'm not saying they are bad arguments. I'm saying they are against vaccine policy, thus anti-vax.

 

Being fat is a personal characteristic. Not vaccinating is a personal choice. When someone branches beyond that and starts making political arguments about their personal characteristics or personal choices, then IMO they open themselves up to people trying to sort and classify their political opinions.

 

There are people who call themselves "fat activists" and advocate "fat acceptance." I don't assume that "the fat lady" you mention is a fat activist just because she's overweight. I already understand she probably doesn't want to be called fat because that's culturally accepted as rude. I don't assume someone who refuses vaccines is against vaccine policy simply because they refuse.

 

I wouldn't call someone fat for no reason, but if I were in a conversation with someone who advocated fat acceptance, and for whom being fat was a political position as well as a personal attribute, then I wouldn't dance around the word "fat" to preserve sensitivity. If I said "that's a common fat advocate argument" it would be to specify, not to say that only fat people say stuff like that, or all fat people say it, or that it's not a good argument. If someone who promoted fat acceptance was offended because I said "fat advocate" I'd be sorry for the offense, but I would also be confused. If they just wanted to be called "overweight" then when I say "that's a common overweight person argument" in making the statement more general, and more neutral, I'd be including plenty of overweight people who aren't even involved in "fat" politics.

 

I don't think when I'm referring to arguments like those above, that it's fair for me to say "vaccine refusers" or "non-vaccinators" to examine those general arguments, because I know plenty of people who are non-vaxxing who don't argue about it at all. I feel like they just get dragged into the politics for no reason.

 

I don't expect people to understand me or my position without having a detailed conversation about it. I think it would be absolutely absurd to expect everyone I debate with  to distinguish all the ways that I am different from other people with similar positions on one specific topic.

 

BTW, I want to be called a vaccine critic, too, so if you say "pro-vax" then I'll assume you're not talking about me.

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#287 of 292 Old 03-26-2014, 05:32 AM
 
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I think it has to do with the  implied judgment on you that is being conferred by the term. Think about having someone use a term for you that you think is negative and, while used by some people to describe your position, doesn't match how you think of yourself. Then imagine them tacking "activist" onto the end. For instance, I am pro-choice. I would prefer to have my view on abortion described in that way. Some pro-lifers want to change pro-choice to pro-abortion. If that term is applied to me it makes me go "ah, come on, guys, you're misrepresenting me". If they were to then tack "activist" onto the end of it, it basically makes it worse... like "Now you want to call me not just pro-abortion but a pro-abortion ACTIVIST? Like I'm ... out there beating babies with protest signs or something?" Or something along those lines.

 

I'm having a hard time describing it, but I totally get that having "activist" tacked on the end of an obnoxious epithet somebody pinned on you makes that epithet sound even more obnoxious. On the other hand, I don't mind having "activist" added to a label I agree with for myself (although I'm not really much of an activist about anything, admittedly). 


To be fair, there are people who are out there with signs advocating FOR abortion. A lot of picketing pro-lifers encounter that attitude. It's a different one from being pro-choice, to me, whether or not a pro-lifer makes the distinction.

I had a friend who said she wanted to get pregnant so she could have an abortion. Maybe she was just reacting to this perception that you're talking about, where pro-choicers are called pro-abortion, and then taking it to the extreme. Either way, there is definitely a culture of people who are pro-abortion. I wouldn't classify them with the mainstream pro-choice movement, but "pro-abortion" makes sense as a term sometimes. Just not when it's misapplied.

 

I dunno, I guess I'm the odd one out in not understanding the sensitivity about these terms. Obviously "wackjob anti-vaxxer" is offensive. But someone wanting to be offensive could so easily say "wackjob non-vaxxer" and before long we'll all be discussing the next most appropriate way to describe whatever it is we're trying to describe.

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#288 of 292 Old 03-26-2014, 05:44 AM
 
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I had a friend who said she wanted to get pregnant so she could have an abortion. Maybe she was just reacting to this perception that you're talking about, where pro-choicers are called pro-abortion, and then taking it to the extreme. Either way, there is definitely a culture of people who are pro-abortion. I wouldn't classify them with the mainstream pro-choice movement, but "pro-abortion" makes sense as a term sometimes. Just not when it's misapplied.

Completey OT but can I just say jaw.gif . That's like the lovely girl I came across on twitter who said she was going to circumcise her hypothetical future son just to spite me. dizzy.gif

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#289 of 292 Old 03-26-2014, 05:54 AM
 
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To be fair, there are people who are out there with signs advocating FOR abortion. A lot of picketing pro-lifers encounter that attitude. It's a different one from being pro-choice, to me, whether or not a pro-lifer makes the distinction.
I had a friend who said she wanted to get pregnant so she could have an abortion. Maybe she was just reacting to this perception that you're talking about, where pro-choicers are called pro-abortion, and then taking it to the extreme. Either way, there is definitely a culture of people who are pro-abortion. I wouldn't classify them with the mainstream pro-choice movement, but "pro-abortion" makes sense as a term sometimes.

I've never in my life heard of anyone EVER holding up a sign with the words "pro-abortion" rather than "pro-choice." And I used to work down the street from a health clinic where there were frequent demonstrations. And your friend sounds profoundly disturbed.
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I dunno, I guess I'm the odd one out in not understanding the sensitivity about these terms. Obviously "wackjob anti-vaxxer" is offensive. But someone wanting to be offensive could so easily say "wackjob non-vaxxer" and before long we'll all be discussing the next most appropriate way to describe whatever it is we're trying to describe.

The term "anti-Vaxxer" is considered derogatory:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anti-vaxxer
"anti-vaxxer
English[edit]

Noun[edit]
anti-vaxxer (plural anti-vaxxers)
(slang, derogatory) An anti-vaccinationist.  [quotations ▲]
2012, Amanda Marcotte, "Measles Outbreak Traced to Super Bowl, Anti-Vaccination Fanatics", Slate, 24 February 2012:
Janice D'Arcy reports at the Washington Post on the latest measles outbreak traced back to anti-vaccination fanatics, but this time, instead of an outbreak being traced back to a Whole Foods or a nursery school---the usual places where the kids of yuppie anti-vaxxers have a chance to expose and be exposed---the trail for this one leads back to the Super Bowl."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-vaccination_movement
"The Anti-vaccination movement (or vaccine hysteria) is an irrational trend of mistrust of vaccination that is almost as old as the technique itself. The movement (more mockingly referred to as "Anti-vaxxers") blame vaccines, or their ingredients, for a range of maladies whose mechanisms are rejected or have not been explained by current scientific research. Some of these maladies can often be childhood illnesses in order to increase the emotive factor of the argument. The ubiquity of vaccination often makes it an easy target for blame."

NOW do you understand?
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I've never in my life heard of anyone EVER holding up a sign with the words "pro-abortion" rather than "pro-choice." And I used to work down the street from a health clinic where there were frequent demonstrations. And your friend sounds profoundly disturbed.
This was shared in the pro-life community a few weeks ago, with much horror: http://studentsforlife.org/fetus-slayer/  The signs say "proud fetus slayer" "abortion on demand and with no apologies" etc.

The term "anti-Vaxxer" is considered derogatory:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anti-vaxxer
"anti-vaxxer
English[edit]

Noun[edit]
anti-vaxxer (plural anti-vaxxers)
(slang, derogatory) An anti-vaccinationist.  [quotations ▲]
2012, Amanda Marcotte, "Measles Outbreak Traced to Super Bowl, Anti-Vaccination Fanatics", Slate, 24 February 2012:
Janice D'Arcy reports at the Washington Post on the latest measles outbreak traced back to anti-vaccination fanatics, but this time, instead of an outbreak being traced back to a Whole Foods or a nursery school---the usual places where the kids of yuppie anti-vaxxers have a chance to expose and be exposed---the trail for this one leads back to the Super Bowl."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-vaccination_movement
"The Anti-vaccination movement (or vaccine hysteria) is an irrational trend of mistrust of vaccination that is almost as old as the technique itself. The movement (more mockingly referred to as "Anti-vaxxers") blame vaccines, or their ingredients, for a range of maladies whose mechanisms are rejected or have not been explained by current scientific research. Some of these maladies can often be childhood illnesses in order to increase the emotive factor of the argument. The ubiquity of vaccination often makes it an easy target for blame."

NOW do you understand?

 

I understand you don't want to be called that and that's fine with me.

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That's great. I wish you could also understand that it is widely considered a derogatory term.
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#292 of 292 Old 03-26-2014, 06:12 AM
 
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That's great. I wish you could also understand that it is widely considered a derogatory term.


 I do, now. Thanks for enlightening me.

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