A pediatrician's different perspective on why he doesn't accept unvaccinated children - Page 8 - Mothering Forums
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#211 of 292 Old 02-11-2014, 10:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 

Perhaps it's more to the point to say that there has not been sufficient research on adverse effects to determine the rate, and that there dismounting research that there are more adverse effects than were originally expected, and that both causes and mechanisms for such effects are as yet not completely understood.

 

The number of reports of seizure reactions to vaccines, of paralysis, of autoimmune disorders--these are increasing.

 

The number of children with neurological problems has increased far beyond what could be explained by better diagnosis.

 

And there are new findings about some of the ingredients in vaccines that seem to explain some of this.

 

These are the reasons why I'm extremely wary of vaccines; thanks Taximom5 for putting it so clearly. 

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#212 of 292 Old 03-14-2014, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Reports are that at least two of the people in NY with measles got it from their doctor's office. 

 

The pediatrician who wrote the article in my OP has written another one and uses this example as another major reason why he won't allow unvaccinated children in his practice.  I won't post the article here directly, but if you are really interested in reading it you can PM me, although I'm sure a lot of you have already seen it. 

 

Does the fact that two people in the NY outbreak caught measles from their doctor's office change your stance on whether or not you think it's unethical for pediatricians to require vaccines? 

 

He says "It is because I never want patients in my office to contract vaccine-preventable illnesses (like at least two unlucky people in the New York City outbreak, who got the disease from visiting their own doctors) that patients whose parents refuse to vaccinate them are not welcome in my practice. I cannot entirely eliminate the potential for disease exposure between children who come to see me, but I can do my best to mitigate it. " 


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#213 of 292 Old 03-14-2014, 08:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

Reports are that at least two of the people in NY with measles got it from their doctor's office. 

 

The pediatrician who wrote the article in my OP has written another one and uses this example as another major reason why he won't allow unvaccinated children in his practice.  I won't post the article here directly, but if you are really interested in reading it you can PM me, although I'm sure a lot of you have already seen it. 

 

Does the fact that two people in the NY outbreak caught measles from their doctor's office change your stance on whether or not you think it's unethical for pediatricians to require vaccines? 

 

He says "It is because I never want patients in my office to contract vaccine-preventable illnesses (like at least two unlucky people in the New York City outbreak, who got the disease from visiting their own doctors) that patients whose parents refuse to vaccinate them are not welcome in my practice. I cannot entirely eliminate the potential for disease exposure between children who come to see me, but I can do my best to mitigate it. " 

So you are saying they know for a fact someone who was unvaxxed is the cause of this? Or is this all just speculation because god forbid they accept that vaccines do in fact shed and it could have been a recently vaxxed kid leaving the office who spread it......   Because you can still transmit diseases for which you are vaccinated making it a moot point - the vaccinated can spread just as much as the unvaxxed.

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#214 of 292 Old 03-14-2014, 08:39 AM
 
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So you are saying they know for a fact someone who was unvaxxed is the cause of this? Or is this all just speculation because god forbid they accept that vaccines do in fact shed and it could have been a recently vaxxed kid leaving the office who spread it......   Because you can still transmit diseases for which you are vaccinated making it a moot point - the vaccinated can spread just as much as the unvaxxed.

 

 

We describe a case of vaccine-associated measles in a two-year-old patient from British Columbia, Canada, in October 2013, who received her first dose of measles-containing vaccine 37 days prior to onset of prodromal symptoms. Identification of this delayed vaccine-associated case occurred in the context of an outbreak investigation of a measles cluster.

 

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20649


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#215 of 292 Old 03-14-2014, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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As the doctor in the quote said, it's not about eliminating all risk, it's about mitigating it.  Requiring that everyone be vaccinated reduces the risk as much as humanly possible. 

 

Surely you don't think measles is more prevalent now than it was before the vaccine do you? 


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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

As the doctor in the quote said, it's not about eliminating all risk, it's about mitigating it.  Requiring that everyone be vaccinated reduces the risk as much as humanly possible. 

 

Surely you don't think measles is more prevalent now than it was before the vaccine do you? 

 

Humanly and vaccines are not two words I feel good going together. 

 

Since the "doctor" was talking about risk, I'm assuming this is your take on it? These are your words-correct? -  Requiring that everyone be vaccinated reduces the risk as much as humanly possible. Does this mean you now support mandatory vaccinations for all?

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I think that, given the context of the discussion, it's pretty clear that she means "requiring that everyone [in the practice] be vaccinated reduces the risk as much as humanly possible".

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#218 of 292 Old 03-14-2014, 02:48 PM
 
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I think that, given the context of the discussion, it's pretty clear that she means "requiring that everyone [in the practice] be vaccinated reduces the risk as much as humanly possible".

thanks but I prefer to hear it FOR SURE  from the poster

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#219 of 292 Old 03-14-2014, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think that, given the context of the discussion, it's pretty clear that she means "requiring that everyone [in the practice] be vaccinated reduces the risk as much as humanly possible".

 

Yes, thank you. I thought that was obvious. 

 

Sheesh serenbat, for someone who constantly accuses people of twisting things you sure do like to twist the words and meaning of others. 


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#220 of 292 Old 03-14-2014, 08:19 PM
 
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It is serenbat.

 

Pay attention to details. Details are important.

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#221 of 292 Old 03-14-2014, 08:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

Yes, thank you. I thought that was obvious. 



I did ask you two questions.

Funny I saw a post on another blog and the poster used nearly the exact sentence, thus why I inquired.
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
 

It is serenbat.

 

Pay attention to details. Details are important.

 

:lol

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#223 of 292 Old 03-15-2014, 06:06 AM
 
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Does the fact that two people in the NY outbreak caught measles from their doctor's office change your stance on whether or not you think it's unethical for pediatricians to require vaccines? 

 

No. There are sick people in waiting room - it is a doctors office.

 

I do think doctors should have separate healthy and "suspected contagious" rooms.  They can also hand out masks to people and anyone who is contagious with a disease that is spread through the air can wear one.   My hospital does this.  

 

Take a look at this article for just how often kids get sick after visiting a doctors office. 

 

http://www.today.com/health/taking-your-healthy-kids-doctor-may-make-them-sick-2D12110565

 

Visiting a doctors office may account for up to 700 000 cases of flu like illness in the USA each year.  Not a typo.  I have trouble getting worked up over two measles cases with numbers like that floating around.  


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#224 of 292 Old 03-15-2014, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It is serenbat.

 

Pay attention to details. Details are important.

 

Oh how clever!  Pointing out an obvious typo. 


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#225 of 292 Old 03-15-2014, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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No. There are sick people in waiting room - it is a doctors office.

 

 

So a doctor should just throw their hands in the air and say "Screw it! People are going to get sick so why bother? Let's remove our hand sanitizers and face masks because it's a doctor's office! People are going to get sick" 

 

That seems to be your logic.  That there's no point in mitigating risk by requiring vaccines, or providing hand sanitizers, or providing face masks for coughing children because "it's a doctor's office." 

 

Okay then. 

 

I disagree. 


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#226 of 292 Old 03-15-2014, 11:37 AM
 
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Oh how clever!  Pointing out an obvious typo. 

 

She pointed it out because it was funny. Plus, on keyboards, the m is far from the r.

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#227 of 292 Old 03-15-2014, 12:11 PM
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If it was an obvious typo I'd expect a correction by edit to be done, if not an apology. 

 

It seems there are some really intense personal stabs going on between some members and some teaming up to pit one side against the other. You all know this is happening and have been contacted multiple times about abiding by the rules of polite and comfortable discussion, even in debate. From this point forward we will be removing members from discussions and from forum access as necessary when such behavior is seen. So please stick to discussion of the topic and stop making the personal stabs, accusations and defenses of such behavior.


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#228 of 292 Old 03-15-2014, 01:41 PM
 
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So a doctor should just throw their hands in the air and say "Screw it! People are going to get sick so why bother? Let's remove our hand sanitizers and face masks because it's a doctor's office! People are going to get sick" 

 

That seems to be your logic.  That there's no point in mitigating risk by requiring vaccines, or providing hand sanitizers, or providing face masks for coughing children because "it's a doctor's office." 

 

Wt???

 

I actually said they should provide masks.  Quoting myself in the previous post:

 

"I do think doctors should have separate healthy and "suspected contagious" rooms.  They can also hand out masks to people and anyone who is contagious with a disease that is spread through the air can wear one.   My hospital does this."

 

I think you should edit.

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#229 of 292 Old 03-15-2014, 01:47 PM
 
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So a doctor should just throw their hands in the air and say "Screw it! People are going to get sick so why bother? Let's remove our hand sanitizers and face masks because it's a doctor's office! People are going to get sick" 

 

That seems to be your logic.  That there's no point in mitigating risk by requiring vaccines, or providing hand sanitizers, or providing face masks for coughing children because "it's a doctor's office." 

 

Okay then. 

 

I disagree. 


I really don't think its a good idea to jump to conclusions about someone else's logic, and to try to put words in their mouths.

kathymuggle did not say  "there's no point in mitigating risks...because it's a doctor's office."  In fact, she pointed out two possible ways to mitigate risk:  have separate waiting rooms for people who are sick, and for people who are there for other reasons, and provide masks for sick patients.

You pretty much ignored the rest of her post, too.  Perhaps you should read it.

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#230 of 292 Old 03-15-2014, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I really don't think its a good idea to jump to conclusions about someone else's logic, and to try to put words in their mouths.

kathymuggle did not say  "there's no point in mitigating risks...because it's a doctor's office."  In fact, she pointed out two possible ways to mitigate risk:  have separate waiting rooms for people who are sick, and for people who are there for other reasons, and provide masks for sick patients.

You pretty much ignored the rest of her post, too.  Perhaps you should read it.

 

Right, I was taking your logic to the extreme. 

 

Your response to the question about requiring vaccines to mitigate risk was "No. There are sick people in waiting room - it is a doctors office."    Which comes across as just saying "Your are in a doctor's office, there's no reason to require vaccines, it's inevitable that you are going to be exposed to things"   But if you apply that same logic to say, wearing masks or sanitizing hands it sounds ridiculous.   That was the point. 

 

Why say that it's important to have separate waiting rooms, and masks, but not vaccines?  Shouldn't we try to mitigate risk as much as possible? Especially considering pediatric waiting rooms regularly have infants? some premature? And children with auto immune diseases etc?  

 

Edit:  This was meant to be a response to Kathymuggle, sorry. 


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#231 of 292 Old 03-15-2014, 02:25 PM
 
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Right, I was taking your logic to the extreme. 

 

Your response to the question about requiring vaccines to mitigate risk was "No. There are sick people in waiting room - it is a doctors office."    Which comes across as just saying "Your are in a doctor's office, there's no reason to require vaccines, it's inevitable that you are going to be exposed to things"   But if you apply that same logic to say, wearing masks or sanitizing hands it sounds ridiculous.   That was the point. 

 

Why say that it's important to have separate waiting rooms, and masks, but not vaccines?  Shouldn't we try to mitigate risk as much as possible? Especially considering pediatric waiting rooms regularly have infants? some premature? And children with auto immune diseases etc?  

 

Edit:  This was meant to be a response to Kathymuggle, sorry. 


First of all, I think you should read more carefully, and edit more appropriately.

Second of all, the obvious answer to the bolded question is that attempting to mitigate one risk (spreading disease at the doctor's office) by giving vaccines to all opens the door to other risks (vaccine reactions, which many believe are both more serious and happen more often than what you seem to believe). Besides, we are learning that vaccines aren't stopping the spread of disease the way were told they would.  This is clearly true for pertussis, mumps, and flu, and it has been explained many times on this forum.

 

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Right, I was taking your logic to the extreme.

 

Your response to the question about requiring vaccines to mitigate risk was "No. There are sick people in waiting room - it is a doctors office."    Which comes across as just saying "Your are in a doctor's office, there's no reason to require vaccines, it's inevitable that you are going to be exposed to things"   But if you apply that same logic to say, wearing masks or sanitizing hands it sounds ridiculous.   That was the point.

 

Why say that it's important to have separate waiting rooms, and masks, but not vaccines?  Shouldn't we try to mitigate risk as much as possible? Especially considering pediatric waiting rooms regularly have infants? some premature? And children with auto immune diseases etc?

 

Edit:  This was meant to be a response to Kathymuggle, sorry.

The grocery store has infants as well...should I avoid that?  It's the responsibility of the parent to decide risks for their child and if you have a immunocompromised child or infant too young to be vaxxed and you knowingly take hem somewhere that viruses could be lurking you are taking a risk - own up to that risk, don't blame someone else or expect them to cater to you.

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#233 of 292 Old 03-15-2014, 03:48 PM
 
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Right, I was taking your logic to the extreme. 

 

Your response to the question about requiring vaccines to mitigate risk was "No. There are sick people in waiting room - it is a doctors office."    Which comes across as just saying "Your are in a doctor's office, there's no reason to require vaccines, it's inevitable that you are going to be exposed to things"   But if you apply that same logic to say, wearing masks or sanitizing hands it sounds ridiculous.   That was the point. 

 

Why say that it's important to have separate waiting rooms, and masks, but not vaccines?  Shouldn't we try to mitigate risk as much as possible? Especially considering pediatric waiting rooms regularly have infants? some premature? And children with auto immune diseases etc?  

 

Edit:  This was meant to be a response to Kathymuggle, sorry. 

 

 

 

My original suspicion was that you did not read my post properly, which is hardly the end of the world, but rather than recant you are saying "I am taking your logic to the extreme" which is far less respectable, IMHO, than simply saying "oops -I should have had a coffee before posting" or something like that.   No one appreciates having words put in their mouths, myself included.  This is a volatile forum and I do not think it is wise. I would prefer a discussion that is nuanced and considered.

 

As per "throwing up my hands" because it is a doctors office (a position I did not make) , I find it interesting that the health care providers in the article I cited were said to  say almost exactly that.

 

http://www.today.com/health/taking-your-healthy-kids-doctor-may-make-them-sick-2D12110565

 

"It always seemed that at those annual well visits, nine times out of 10 … she got another ear infection,” says Day , who lives in the Philadelphia-area town of Macungie, Pa.

When she’d return to the doctor’s office to treat Ashley’s infections, Day would say: “I was just here and she was fine and now she is sick.”

The doctors and nurses replied: “Kids get sick.”

 

 

Otherwise and as to your question - I defer to Taxi's post.  Vaccines come with risks that masks and separate waiting rooms do not come with.  

 

 


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Here is a list of 215 known infectious illnesses: http://www.ask.com/wiki/List_of_infectious_diseases?qsrc=3044 I believe the same list is on WIkipedia.

Some of these diseases will be readily transmissible in a doctor's waiting room, others not.

But if you were to name every single sub-type of each casually communicable disease, vaccine-targeted or not, the list would grow astronomically.

The common *viral* cold alone has at least 99 strains. http://www.topnews.in/healthcare/content/-21270scientists-chart-sequence-99-cold-virus-strains

Then consider the different types and sub-types of influenza, and the 100s of different ways that someone may present symptoms of non-vaccine-targeted influenza-like illness.

Then there's good old pertussis, whose vaccine clearly isn't preventing transmission.

All of these put others, especially the immunocompromised, at risk.

And this doctor is raising a stink over something as rare as measles? I call bull. Or at least I'd like to see some solid, quantifiable probability figures before I buy his argument.

Nobody is suggesting that we throw up our hands and hopelessly start coughing pathogens onto each other. But you'd be lying if you said that medical waiting rooms aren't hotbeds for the transmission of diseases that are not vaccine-targeted.

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#235 of 292 Old 03-15-2014, 07:04 PM
 
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Here is a list of 215 known infectious illnesses: http://www.ask.com/wiki/List_of_infectious_diseases?qsrc=3044 I believe the same list is on WIkipedia.

Some of these diseases will be readily transmissible in a doctor's waiting room, others not.

But if you were to name every single sub-type of each casually communicable disease, vaccine-targeted or not, the list would grow astronomically.

The common *viral* cold alone has at least 99 strains. http://www.topnews.in/healthcare/content/-21270scientists-chart-sequence-99-cold-virus-strains

Then consider the different types and sub-types of influenza, and the 100s of different ways that someone may present symptoms of non-vaccine-targeted influenza-like illness.

Then there's good old pertussis, whose vaccine clearly isn't preventing transmission.

All of these put others, especially the immunocompromised, at risk.

And this doctor is raising a stink over something as rare as measles? I call bull. Or at least I'd like to see some solid, quantifiable probability figures before I buy his argument.

Nobody is suggesting that we throw up our hands and hopelessly start coughing pathogens onto each other. But you'd be lying if you said that medical waiting rooms aren't hotbeds for the transmission of diseases that are not vaccine-targeted.

Yah, that, especially the bolded :wink

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Turquesa yes a hundred times. Can someone explain to me why European doctors don't fire patients? The only difference that's readily available is lawsuits.
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#237 of 292 Old 03-17-2014, 05:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

Yes, thank you. I thought that was obvious. 

 

Sheesh serenbat, for someone who constantly accuses people of twisting things you sure do like to twist the words and meaning of others. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

Here is a list of 215 known infectious illnesses: http://www.ask.com/wiki/List_of_infectious_diseases?qsrc=3044 I believe the same list is on WIkipedia.

Some of these diseases will be readily transmissible in a doctor's waiting room, others not. how about lice? bedbugs & ticks JUMP too! 

But if you were to name every single sub-type of each casually communicable disease, vaccine-targeted or not, the list would grow astronomically.

The common *viral* cold alone has at least 99 strains. http://www.topnews.in/healthcare/content/-21270scientists-chart-sequence-99-cold-virus-strains

Then consider the different types and sub-types of influenza, and the 100s of different ways that someone may present symptoms of non-vaccine-targeted influenza-like illness.

Then there's good old pertussis, whose vaccine clearly isn't preventing transmission.

All of these put others, especially the immunocompromised, at risk.

And this doctor is raising a stink over something as rare as measles? I call bull. Or at least I'd like to see some solid, quantifiable probability figures before I buy his argument.

Nobody is suggesting that we throw up our hands and hopelessly start coughing pathogens onto each other. But you'd be lying if you said that medical waiting rooms aren't hotbeds for the transmission of diseases that are not vaccine-targeted.

ALL so true!

 

Funny how conjunctivitis can go hand in hand with measles - how many parents are clueless as to what their child really has takes them in to the Dr for pink eye and ???……makes one wonder about a lot!

I wonder too if down the road the parents all worked up and only going to a Dr that only takes those who will fully vaccinated, will let their children sit all day in a classroom with the unvaccinated (public school)? Those unvaccinated they have no right to know about either, along with the unvaccinated staff and support personnel.

 

(edited to correct misspelling of name)

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 pro-transparency advocate

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lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

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Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

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#238 of 292 Old 03-17-2014, 08:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

ALL so true!

Funny how conjunctivitis can go hand in hand with measles - how many parents are clueless as to what their child really has takes them in to the Dr for pink eye and ???……makes one wonder about a lot!
I wonder too if down the road the parents all worked up and only going to a Dr that only takes those who will fully vaccinated, will let their children sit all day in a classroom with the unvaccinated (public school)? Those unvaccinated they have no right to know about either, along with the unvaccinated staff and support personnel.

Hey Serenbat I think you accidentally changed Teacozy's quote because while she edited her post to correct your username yesterday your quote has her spelling error still present. I know how it bothered you (rightfully so) and thought you might want to correct it. smile.gif
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#239 of 292 Old 03-17-2014, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Haven't gone through all the replies yet.

 

I've been very sleep deprived the last several days, hence the confusing posts that didn't make sense, replying to the wrong people, typos etc.   My son got his first stomach virus which has now resulted in a terrible diaper rash so it's been a rough few days.

 

Anyway, sorry for my confusing responses, or if I offended anyone, it was not my intention to do so. 

 

@kathymuggle 

 

The only point I was trying to make was that your response to my question about requiring vaccines to mitigate risk wasn't a very convincing one.  If my question had the word "vaccines" replaced with hand washing, or separate waiting rooms for sick and healthy children to mitigate risk to other children/infants and a person's response was  "No. There are sick people in waiting room - it is a doctors office."  That wouldn't be a very compelling or convincing argument. 


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
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#240 of 292 Old 03-18-2014, 05:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

Haven't gone through all the replies yet.

 

I've been very sleep deprived the last several days, hence the confusing posts that didn't make sense, replying to the wrong people, typos etc.   My son got his first stomach virus which has now resulted in a terrible diaper rash so it's been a rough few days.

 

Anyway, sorry for my confusing responses, or if I offended anyone, it was not my intention to do so. 

 

@kathymuggle 

 

The only point I was trying to make was that your response to my question about requiring vaccines to mitigate risk wasn't a very convincing one.  If my question had the word "vaccines" replaced with hand washing, or separate waiting rooms for sick and healthy children to mitigate risk to other children/infants and a person's response was  "No. There are sick people in waiting room - it is a doctors office."  That wouldn't be a very compelling or convincing argument. 

Banning patients who refuse to breastfeed their babies would probably reduce risks too, but that wouldn't make it right.  Or what about only accepting pediatric patients who have a stay-at-home parent so they aren't in daycare?  Again, that would probably have some impact on risk, but would be really, really wrong.   Separating patients who made appointments for routine maintenance from patients who want to see the doctor because they are sick isn't prophylactic, it addresses the situation at hand, and it's not forcing an irreversible procedure on anybody, etc...   It also addresses a much broader spectrum of illnesses than vaccines do. 

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