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#1 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I certainly do not mean any offence, I am genuinely interested in learning more. I come from a position of being raised by a consultant paedeatrician and having studied a degree in biological science myself. So many of the posts I've read are anecdotal and based more on feelings than peer reviewed papers or statistical analysis that I'm left baffled. The non-vaccinators here seem to be intelligent people. You can all spell! So what information am I missing here?

 

Do any of the non-vaccinators on this thread have a scientific education?

 

Are most here American? I'm led to believe that in America Evolution is an optional part of the science curriculum, which makes me wonder about the general quality of biological study in the country.

 

 

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#2 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 03:43 PM
 
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Are most here American? I'm led to believe that in America Evolution is an optional part of the science curriculum, which makes me wonder about the general quality of biological study in the country.

 

 

 

I am confused as to why you are bring up evolution.  


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#3 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I want to understand why people are against vaccination as all the science I ever learned informs me that the risks are minimal and the dangers of not doing so are very real. I thought perhaps the difference was cultural or educational. This is why I asked if most people here were American. I had watched documentaries and seen news articles previously that said evolution was not taught at some american schools. Is evolution an essential part of the curriculum in your state too? 

 

If children aren't taught about evolution they will struggle to understand immunity and disease, so how would they grow up to make informed decisions about vaccinations?

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#4 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 04:05 PM
 
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I want to understand why people are against vaccination as all the science I ever learned informs me that the risks are minimal and the dangers of not doing so are very real. I thought perhaps the difference was cultural or educational. This is why I asked if most people here were American. I had watched documentaries and seen news articles previously that said evolution was not taught at some American schools. Is evolution an essential part of the curriculum in your state too? 

 

If children aren't taught about evolution they will struggle to understand immunity and disease, so how would they grow up to make informed decisions about vaccinations?

 

I would be interested in a thread on how evolution ties to vaccines as that has not been discussed here  (New topic!  Yippee!)

 

I am not going to fully answer your question.  There are 3 or 4 new pro-vaxxers at the moment, and I have no intention of writing a long post until I know if you will stay, play nice, etc.  

 

I will say that there are people from Canada, UK, Australia and the USA on this forum. There are a few other nationalities present, but they are not frequent posters as far as I know.  I would say US posters make up over half the population.  


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#5 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 04:07 PM
 
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I want to understand why people are against vaccination as all the science I ever learned informs me that the risks are minimal and the dangers of not doing so are very real.

Many, many of the posters here have learned the hard way, after seeing their own children suffer from those minimal, rare reactions. In our family it was my husband, before we had children.

 

Not all scientists and doctors agree on the issues. There are many well-educated doctors who question vaccines.

 

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I thought perhaps the difference was cultural or educational. This is why I asked if most people here were American.

There are people here from all over the world.

 

 

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#6 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The other question about doctors who may question vaccines is "how well trained are they in research science"?

 

I'm really sorry to hear about your family's experience. What happened to your husband?

 

Must be time for me to go to bed now. Night all!

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The other question about doctors who may question vaccines is "how well trained are they in research science"?

 

I'm really sorry to hear about your family's experience. What happened to your husband?

 

Must be time for me to go to bed now. Night all!

UK?


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#8 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 04:32 PM
 
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nvm


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#9 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 05:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

I want to understand why people are against vaccination as all the science I ever learned informs me that the risks are minimal and the dangers of not doing so are very real. I thought perhaps the difference was cultural or educational. This is why I asked if most people here were American. I had watched documentaries and seen news articles previously that said evolution was not taught at some american schools. Is evolution an essential part of the curriculum in your state too? 

 

If children aren't taught about evolution they will struggle to understand immunity and disease, so how would they grow up to make informed decisions about vaccinations?



Well, I would like to understand why you posted this question approximately 1 hour and 56 minutes ago, when you were clearly answered in another thread that American children ARE taught about evolution in schools.  This was posted approximately 3 hours and 41 minutes ago:

 

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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
 

No, evolution is not an optional part of any scientific education or biology course.

I am a science teacher, and NO, evolution is part of every science curriculum in my state, including religious schools who follow the state curriculum framework.

My colleagues all teach evolution in their science classes.

You believe in evolution? You must know that diseases come and go and change. Pertussis has changed but the vaccine has not kept up with it.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/whooping-cough-strain-now-immune-to-vaccine/story-e6freuy9-1225828959714

 

If you want to know what is optional in American education, you can look at the fact that in most medical schools nutrition is an elective course; the curriculum for diet and nutrition is put together under the auspices of the Kroc Foundation.  Very little time is spent on immunology or vaccines, two weeks, except what the vaccine manufacturers want future doctors to know.

 

 

 

And I know you saw it, because you answered it approximately 3 hours and 12 minutes ago:
 

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Originally Posted by Rexeldexel View Post
 

Well that's a relief to know :) Yes, of course I believe in evolution. The evidence is irrefutable.

 

I've had a look at the Australian article you linked to and agree that diseases mutate. The article suggests that non-vaccinating parents are a possible cause of an increasing level of mutation in pertussis strains, which must make it harder to keep up with the design of new strain vaccinations. It also says that the more effective broad-acting vaccine was narrowed in the first place because of pressure from parents concerned about side effects. My next door neighbour's new baby nearly died from whooping cough so certainly it would be something I'd want to avoid in my community.

 

It would be interesting to read the actual research papers instead of second hand, unreferenced news articles for more depth and scope on the subject. 

 

So why, 2 hours after your question was answered, do you keep asking if evolution is taught in US schools?

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#10 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 06:24 PM
 
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I know about immunity.

 

I know about evolution.

 

Variolation and other forms of using inhaled dried pus to prevent smallpox predate vaccination by centuries; Jenner was 1799, although variolation was in use in the colonies for over a hundred years by that time. Charles Darwin's Origin of the Species was written in Nov, 1859, although I am sure the academic community had been discussing an evolutionary theory for a few decades before; someone had to sponsor Darwin's travels and writing.  Why are you putting the two together?

Are you here to make some kind of point that people against vaccination are religious fanatics and not only anti-science but totally ignorant of any science to the point of being ignorant and antagonistic of scientific facts as evolution?

 

You are wrong,

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 You can all spell!

 and you are condescending.

 

And what do you have against Americans?

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#11 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 07:13 PM
 
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The other question about doctors who may question vaccines is "how well trained are they in research science"?

 

I find the whole idea that anyone who doesn't agree wholesale with the vaccine program must somehow be deficient in their training to be arrogant.

 

Maybe they question them because they are the type of doctors who listen to their patients and they are the ones who are seeing the trail left behind.

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#12 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 08:07 PM
 
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I am a healthcare professional with an advanced degree.  I have taken college courses in microbiology, anatomy and physiology and epidemiology.  I have written a 50 page thesis.  I know how to research.  I personally just looked at all the available literature and came to a different conclusion that you did, OP.  I don't think flat out that vaccines are dangerous.  I just don't think that enough research has gone into the real 10000s of vaccine induced reactions in children.  VAERS was a starting point but it should not be an end all be all stop point.  Scientists must listen to parents, and the science and development of vaccines must reflect their concerns.  At this point it does not.  There is a hole in the research.

 

I believe in evolution.  I can spell (which I do agree was condescending).  I believe many vaccines are effective (minus  acellular pertussis, and influenza for example).  But I do not believe they are safe.  What I would like to see is less finger pointing and blame and snugness and more open ended discussion between government public health agencies and concerned parents/groups about how to create safe (but still effective) vaccines. 


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I am a healthcare professional with an advanced degree.  I have taken college courses in microbiology, anatomy and physiology and epidemiology.  I have written a 50 page thesis.  I know how to research.  I personally just looked at all the available literature and came to a different conclusion that you did, OP.  I don't think flat out that vaccines are dangerous.  I just don't think that enough research has gone into the real 10000s of vaccine induced reactions in children.  VAERS was a starting point but it should not be an end all be all stop point.  Scientists must listen to parents, and the science and development of vaccines must reflect their concerns.  At this point it does not.  There is a hole in the research.

 

I believe in evolution.  I can spell (which I do agree was condescending).  I believe many vaccines are effective (minus  acellular pertussis, and influenza for example).  But I do not believe they are safe.  What I would like to see is less finger pointing and blame and snugness and more open ended discussion between government public health agencies and concerned parents/groups about how to create safe (but still effective) vaccines. 

:yeah:clap

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#14 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 09:11 PM
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  Scientists must listen to parents

Funny. I never knew that parents had advanced degrees in organic chemistry and biochemistry. In fact, most parents have trouble differentiating between an antibiotic and an antiviral.

Why should scientists listen to parents who do not understand biology?

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#15 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 09:19 PM
 
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 In fact, most parents have trouble differentiating between an antibiotic and an antiviral.

Plenty of doctors have this problem also.

 

Plenty of parents are scientists, doctors, chemists, biologists, et cetera. Never underestimate a parent of a sick child.

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The reason thimerasol was taken out of vaccines (well, most vaccines) was because of overwhelming amounts of pressure from the public. Many if not most of this concern was from parents. It took a decade of pressure before it was finally phased out. I think that was a small victory towards safer vaccines but there still is a lot of dialogue yet to have.

I'm truly stumped at where the assumption lies that parents are dumb. Truly. Maybe it's just the circles I travel in but I have a multitude of friends and acquaintances who are in the healthcare field (prescribing both antibiotics and antivirals--LOL, you'd hope we know the difference) who are midwives, nurses, ARNPs, doctors....And many made the informed and difficult decision to selectively vaccinate, delay vaccination, or not vaccinate at all.

As I always say, there is no black and white when it comes to the grand vaccine debate.

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#17 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 10:07 PM
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lenty of doctors have this problem also.

If a doctor can't figure out the difference between an antibiotic (removes the ability to catalyze a cell wall leading to cell destruction) and antivirals (mimics the cell receptors which confuses the viral particles) then you need to file a grievance with the hospital and get his license revoked.
 

 

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Plenty of parents are scientists, doctors, chemists, biologists, et cetera. Never underestimate a parent of a sick child.

Most are not. In fact... around half of Americans do not accept evolution. Why should I trust or even take a creationist seriously in matters of biology?

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#18 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 10:07 PM
 
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Also, MDC is a forum for parents. It's not supposed to be a vaccine debate forum (though we have a subforum called vaccine debate, I know.). I think there are many more avenues on the internet where a non parent who just wants to debate vaccines could find a better place to do that. I'm not telling anyone to leave, I just think the point of MDC (as a place for parents) is being lost a bit with all these sub forums.
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#19 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 10:09 PM
 
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I'm not sure where creationism comes into all of this. I can assure you I am not a creationist. I'm actually an atheist (though I respect people who believe in religion.)

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#20 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 10:09 PM
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The reason thimerasol was taken out of vaccines (well, most vaccines) was because of overwhelming amounts of pressure from the public.

And the rate of autism KEPT ON INCREASING!

 

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 I think that was a small victory towards safer vaccines but there still is a lot of dialogue yet to have.

Thiomersal wasn't harmful. In fact, it made vaccines safer because it kept them preserved so no other life formed would grow in it.

 

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I'm truly stumped at where the assumption lies that parents are dumb. ​

Having kids doesn't grant you magical knowledge on biological systems and enzymatic reactions and catalysts and organic/biochemistry.

 

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#21 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 10:10 PM
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I'm not sure where creationism comes into all of this. I can assure you I am not a creationist. I'm actually an atheist (though I respect people who believe in religion.)


Since half the american population doesn't accept something as basically fundamental as evolutionary theory to the biological sciences, why would you trust that their opinion on other aspects of biology are accurate or to be considered?

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#22 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 10:13 PM
 
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I'm not sure what you are trying to say. I am not asking the American population for advice about vaccinations. I did my own research.
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#23 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 10:17 PM
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I am saying that this is why I don't trust just 'random parents.'

Parenting does not automatically give you 4 years of schooling.

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#24 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 10:17 PM
 
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Anyway I think this thread started as a genuine question from Rexeldexel and now turned into something else. So on that note, goodnight all.
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No one is asking anyone to trust random parents. I would not either. But some random parents have had 4 years of schooling (or more like me) and advanced degrees and still come to a different conclusion as yourself. We all have a lot to learn from each other, but don't seek to lump us all together.

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#26 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 10:26 PM
 
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This newbie Kyle has been very successful at getting people to continue to respond to him. It's been interesting, in a way. Like a soap opera. But . . . Do we really want to continue with this? Just a quick check-in.
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#27 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 10:35 PM
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Like a soap opera. But . . . Do we really want to continue with this? Just a quick check-in.

You'll find out next week on DAYS OF OUR VACCINES!

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#28 of 244 Old 02-02-2014, 11:00 PM
 
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The reason thimerasol was taken out of vaccines (well, most vaccines) was because of overwhelming amounts of pressure from the public.
 

Originally Posted by Kyle Rutherford View Post
 

And the rate of autism KEPT ON INCREASING!
 

 

 

Did it?  Are you quite sure?

You see, thimerosal wasn't actually "taken out" of vaccines.  Thimerosal-free pediatric vaccines began to be produced in 2001, with the thimerosal-preserved, multi-does-vial pediatric vaccines continuing to be sold and distributed to pediatricians for as long as the shelf life was good.  Our pediatrician was still giving them in 2004.  There are many other similar reports of thimerosal-preserved pediatric vaccines being used as late as 2004.

 

The current official rate of autism, as announced by the CDC, is based on data from 2008, on 8-year-olds.

 

These 8-year-olds, obviously were born in 2000, and would have been given a higher number of thimerosal-preserved vaccines than any previous cohort.  In addition, they were also given more aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines than any previous cohort. So clearly, we don't yet have data on children who received thimerosal-free vaccines.

 

And we may never have that data.

It certainly muddies the waters to realize that, as thimerosal-preserved pediatric vaccines stopped being used in the US, thimerosal-preserved flu shots began to be recommended for infants, with 2 doses being given the first year of life, and a yearly shot after that.  11 doses by age 10.

And in 2009, flu shots began to be strongly recommended to women in all stages of pregnancy. Nearly all flu shots were, at that time, from multi-dose vials, and therefore preserved with thimerosal.  Thimerosal-free vaccines were, until this year, in very limited supply.  FluMist nasal spray vaccines have always been thimerosal-free, but are contraindicated for pregnant women and for children under 2 or 3 (depending on manufacturer). 

Pregnant women are also encouraged to get a pertussis booster (which would be a DTaP).   Adult versions of the vaccine are also thimerosal-preserved, as are many adult vaccinations.  Thimerosal-preserved pediatric vaccines are still manufactured in the US, and are shipped off to developing countries (where autism and autoimmune disorders are skyrocketing).

So that means that, in the US, pregnant women get a flu shot and sometimes a DTaP as well, both preserved with thimerosal (which is known to cross the placenta).  So infants are born already having up to 2 separate exposures to thimerosal (earlier than ever before), and then receive yearly thimerosal-preserved flu shots.


I think it's very important to get all the facts.   If you believe that "the rate of autism increased even after thimerosal was taken out of vaccines," you have obviously not gotten the facts.

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#29 of 244 Old 02-03-2014, 12:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I posted the same question here because I hoped for a fuller answer. 

 

Let me explain: I was brought to this site in the first place by fb where I saw a hateful response to a non-vaccinators comment. The people responding with hate could not spell. I came here half-wondering if mums who do not vaccinate were as uneducated as the pro-vaccinators abusing them. I know I'm educated and I know that vaccination has made sense sense to me. This may be arrogant, but it is less arrogant than deciding non-vaccinators are idiots and moving on without even taking the time to understand the truth. As many of you have studied these topics at a high level I feel that there is significantly more for me to learn.

 

I agree with Kyle that I would never want to take advice on vaccinations from a creationist who denies evolution. 

 

I love Americans! I had just seen articles such as the one below that said the education system was failing american students in science and I wondered if this was contributing to vaccination-fear?

 

http://biologos.org/blog/teaching-evolution-and-creationism-in-americas-biology-classrooms

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#30 of 244 Old 02-03-2014, 04:06 AM
 
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Are you a parent?

Most non-vaccinating parents are better educated, affluent, and, yes, have a strong science background and education.

 

There has always been groups of strong, intelligent, non-vaccinating parents in this world who love and care for their children and it has nothing to do with ignorance, poor education, misinformation or fear.  You are making some illogical leaps here.

 

If you appreciate good spelling, how about appreciating some good proofreading so that you can make some sense sense.

 

I do not know why you continue to harp on creationism and evolution; that question was answered for you hours ago. Make your next point.

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