Evolution, Adaptation, and Vaccines - Mothering Forums

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Old 02-04-2014, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Would a spin-off be OK? I actually think that evolutionary biology is quite relevant to the vaccine discussion.

I'll launch the discussion with some links. Please peruse them, and post your thoughts.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631860/

http://iai.asm.org/content/66/2/670.short

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2640786/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X10004755

http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/5/18/3.short


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Old 02-04-2014, 10:59 PM
 
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I don't have time to type a whole post. Subscribing so I can come back later.
Thanks Turquesa for starting the thread and posting those links!
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:04 PM
 
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 I plan to post later today once I've had some sleep :)


 
 
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:52 AM
 
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I was going to post to the other thread but my remarks are more relevant to this one. Thanks for starting the spin off, Turquesa.

I am a Christian and I believe that God created the world. I can't prove it so don't ask me for quotes or citations or resources to prove my claims. I believe that the Bible is the word of God and thus, I believe the account of creation it contains.

However, I also believe that the creation is not static. Mutation and adaptation can and do occur and changes happen. I just don't believe that every living thing in the universe today is the result of different mutations and adaptations of a single DNA source.

I have, so far, been able to study and understand biology (primarily human, but I did do photosynthesis at school and I got a B for senior biology so I must have manage to twist my mind around it somehow winky.gif ) without too much trouble. Although I do admit to struggling with the renal countercurrent mechanism. I have also taught anatomy and physiology at an undergrad level so, yeah...

As far as my views on vaccination: I am fully vaccinated. My 3.5yo is most of the way through a catch-up schedule. My 1yo is unvaxxed but will probably follow the same schedule as the 3.5yo at about the same age.

I do believe vaccines work and have made a difference to the incidence and/or severity of the diseases they attempt to prevent. I think that mainstream medicine and media, for a variety of reasons some laudable, some not, exaggerate the effectiveness and downplay the risks. I think there is very likely a link between vaccination and auto-immune disorders/immune system disruption and I think this probable link is downplayed/ignored to our (collective "our") detriment. I think the risks are greater the younger the person is, which is why we delayed and why I am ok with vaccinating myself as an adult.

So, there you are. FWIW, those are my views, in a nutshell. I'll be interested to read what others have to say on the subject.

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Old 02-05-2014, 05:44 AM
 
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Would a spin-off be OK? I actually think that evolutionary biology is quite relevant to the vaccine discussion.

I'll launch the discussion with some links. Please peruse them, and post your thoughts.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631860/

http://iai.asm.org/content/66/2/670.short

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2640786/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X10004755

http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/5/18/3.short
 

I think that the co-evolutionary race discussed in these articles encourages parents to support vaccination. The vaccination makes life harder for the known strain, so a new strain evolves. This challenges epidemiologists to keep up the good work, continue fighting this ongoing "arms race". Without the vaccines strain mutations would occur at a slower rate because more people would be successfully infected by the current strain. If the strain is able to thrive it is not under adaptive pressure.

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Old 02-05-2014, 06:30 AM
 
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I think that the co-evolutionary race discussed in these articles encourages parents to support vaccination. The vaccination makes life harder for the known strain, so a new strain evolves. This challenges epidemiologists to keep up the good work, continue fighting this ongoing "arms race". Without the vaccines strain mutations would occur at a slower rate because more people would be successfully infected by the current strain. If the strain is able to thrive it is not under adaptive pressure.

 

Are you suggesting that people who have severe reactions to the vaccines are acceptable collateral damage for making it more difficult for known strains of disease to survive, while new, more virulent strains emerge?

 

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Old 02-05-2014, 06:48 AM
 
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I think that the co-evolutionary race discussed in these articles encourages parents to support vaccination. The vaccination makes life harder for the known strain, so a new strain evolves. This challenges epidemiologists to keep up the good work, continue fighting this ongoing "arms race". Without the vaccines strain mutations would occur at a slower rate because more people would be successfully infected by the current strain. If the strain is able to thrive it is not under adaptive pressure.

Do you not think that vaccines could produce mutant 'weaponized' strains of viruses given how they are produced? Also, if left alone, that is without vaccines, would these pathogens evolve to be less virulent? It certainly appears to be what happened in the first half of the 20th century when the death rates for infectious diseases plummeted prior to the introduction of vaccines, for example, in the UK the death rate from measles fell by 99.6 percent prior to the introduction of the vaccine in 1971.


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Old 02-05-2014, 06:58 AM
 
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Are you suggesting that people who have severe reactions to the vaccines are acceptable collateral damage for making it more difficult for known strains of disease to survive, while new, more virulent strains emerge?

 

Eugenics is social Darwinism.


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Old 02-05-2014, 07:12 AM
 
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Eugenics is social Darwinism.

Eugenics is the practice of controlled breeding to improve the genetics of a population. Are you calling the pathogens social darwinists? It would not make sense to suggest I'm into eugenics because I'm advocating the use of vaccines. The alternative to my view, in the case of vaccine-preventable diseases, is to place what I would consider unnecessary selective pressure on our immune systems which leads to genetic changes in communities. 

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:17 AM
 
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I think that the co-evolutionary race discussed in these articles encourages parents to support vaccination. The vaccination makes life harder for the known strain, so a new strain evolves. This challenges epidemiologists to keep up the good work, continue fighting this ongoing "arms race". Without the vaccines strain mutations would occur at a slower rate because more people would be successfully infected by the current strain. If the strain is able to thrive it is not under adaptive pressure.


See, I think the ongoing "arms race" is reason to scale back vaccinations for some diseases (like pertussis) to just those people who really need to avoid the disease.  That way, the strains have less pressure to adapt to the vaccine, so the vaccine will continue to be a viable option for those people who actually need it for longer. 

 

Evolution is actually a big part of why I'm less than impressed by the current trend of mass vaccinations against a growing number of illnesses.  Long-term, as a species, vaccines will prove to be pretty insignificant since they give such narrow ranged immunity, can't be adapted very fast, etc...

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:18 AM
 
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At risk of sounding like a complete idiot (which I'm sure I will, but I'm actually okay with that because I'm really curious as to the answer to my question :) ), why is it less of a problem to have mutating viruses than the issue we are currently experiencing with mutating bacteria as a result of over-use of antibiotics? I realize that the two act differently in the body, but it seems to be well acknowledged in the medical community that the over-use of antibiotics has contributed to the evolution of these "super-bugs" that we're seeing that are causing us a lot of grief. What's to stop the viruses from becoming "super-viruses" that become far more difficult, if not impossible, for us to treat, leading to more deaths?

 

Quote:
 I think that the co-evolutionary race discussed in these articles encourages parents to support vaccination. The vaccination makes life harder for the known strain, so a new strain evolves. This challenges epidemiologists to keep up the good work, continue fighting this ongoing "arms race". Without the vaccines strain mutations would occur at a slower rate because more people would be successfully infected by the current strain. If the strain is able to thrive it is not under adaptive pressure.

 

This makes sense to me, but I'm not sure why it's a good thing, so I'm trying to understand. Thanks!

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:19 AM
 
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Eugenics is the practice of controlled breeding to improve the genetics of a population. Are you calling the pathogens social darwinists? It would not make sense to suggest I'm into eugenics because I'm advocating the use of vaccines. The alternative to my view, in the case of vaccine-preventable diseases, is to place what I would consider unnecessary selective pressure on our immune systems which leads to genetic changes in communities. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-klinghoffer/the-dark-side-of-darwinis_b_630627.html

 

So, we have evolved throughout the millennia with defective immune systems, and now through the use of vaccines we are able to improve our immune systems to evolve into super humans. Sort of like transhumanism?

 

Do you think it might be possible that some of these self-limiting childhood diseases have any benefit for the organism? For example measles and less asthma, or mumps and less cancer of the ovaries? 


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Old 02-05-2014, 07:20 AM
 
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 The alternative to my view, in the case of vaccine-preventable diseases, is to place what I would consider unnecessary selective pressure on our immune systems which leads to genetic changes in communities. 

WHAT?????????????????????????????

 

 

 

http://swampland.time.com/2014/02/05/bill-nye-ken-ham-debate/ :thumb


 

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:26 AM
 
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Eugenics is the practice of controlled breeding to improve the genetics of a population. Are you calling the pathogens social darwinists? It would not make sense to suggest I'm into eugenics because I'm advocating the use of vaccines. The alternative to my view, in the case of vaccine-preventable diseases, is to place what I would consider unnecessary selective pressure on our immune systems which leads to genetic changes in communities. 

There's pressure placed on our immune systems whether it's from natural exposure to the microbes or exposure to vaccines.  The two play out a little differently, but our immune systems are still kept busy.  

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:30 AM
 
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Ah, mizram, you are quick with the thumbs up …..but I sense this thread may go down the slippery path to eugencis so I am editing it as I am am not up for it today (or ever, really) 

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:37 AM
 
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Ah, mizram, you are quick with the thumbs up …..but I sense this thread may go down the slippery path to eugencis so I am editing it as I am am not up for it today (or ever, really) 

I fear you are right, eugenics is always a topic that evolves into board mayhem.


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Old 02-05-2014, 07:39 AM
 
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There's pressure placed on our immune systems whether it's from natural exposure to the microbes or exposure to vaccines.  The two play out a little differently, but our immune systems are still kept busy.  

 

Quote:
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Are you suggesting that people who have severe reactions to the vaccines are acceptable collateral damage for making it more difficult for known strains of disease to survive, while new, more virulent strains emerge?

 

I'm not convinced of the evidence for these severe reactions and I also believe in acting for the greater good rather than a rule of "first do no harm". Often stories have not been linked irrefutably to the vaccine. My cousin's cousin died without warning at 5 years old. He was healthy and happy. 20 minutes before he died he complained about a mild headache and that was all. Sometimes (rarely) deaths happen and there is absolutely no explanation. If this little boy had happened to have an injection on that sad day no doubt the injection would have been blamed. I use this anecdote as an example of how bad things can happen without a known explanation and by coincidence could be attributed to a wrong cause. 

 

It doesn't make sense to me personally to worry about all the teeny tiny possible risks of every day. I would argue that stairs and kettles and cars are riskier to use than vaccinations and we all use them everyday without question. Looking at the evidence I see that the risk of the disease is greater than the risk of serious vaccine reaction. 

 

Are you saying it is "better the devil you know" when it comes to vaccine preventable diseases? That we shouldn't try to prevent them because selective pressure will increase the rate of mutations?    http://www.hpa.org.uk/NewsCentre/NationalPressReleases/2013PressReleases/130201Casesofwhoopingcoughdeclineafterrecordnumbers/

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:45 AM
 
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See, I think the ongoing "arms race" is reason to scale back vaccinations for some diseases (like pertussis) to just those people who really need to avoid the disease.  That way, the strains have less pressure to adapt to the vaccine, so the vaccine will continue to be a viable option for those people who actually need it for longer. 

 

Evolution is actually a big part of why I'm less than impressed by the current trend of mass vaccinations against a growing number of illnesses.  Long-term, as a species, vaccines will prove to be pretty insignificant since they give such narrow ranged immunity, can't be adapted very fast, etc...

I think you make some great points. With pertussis though studies have shown that without herd immunity individuals are still open to infection. 

 

To live this way we would have to accept living in "harmony" with the viruses which does inevitably mean damage and deaths. I'm not sure that childhood diseases are an essential part of the world's ecology and as we have successfully created the extinctions of many other species I'm not sure we should just give up on mass vaccination as a solution. 

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:50 AM
 
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Do you not think that vaccines could produce mutant 'weaponized' strains of viruses given how they are produced? No I don't.

 

Also, if left alone, that is without vaccines, would these pathogens evolve to be less virulent? Not necessarily. Pathogens do not benefit from mass extinction of their host species but neither do they benefit from keeping us all alive and undamaged. 

 

It certainly appears to be what happened in the first half of the 20th century when the death rates for infectious diseases plummeted prior to the introduction of vaccines, for example, in the UK the death rate from measles fell by 99.6 percent prior to the introduction of the vaccine in 1971.   I'll have to do a little research to be able to comment :)

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:54 AM
 
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I really don't want to be obnoxious, but can anyone address my question above. It really was a sincere question; this is an area that I don't know a lot about and I'm genuinely trying to understand. Thanks!

 

Quote:

Do you not think that vaccines could produce mutant 'weaponized' strains of viruses given how they are produced? No I don't.

 
 

This sort of begins to answer my question, but what I'm lacking is an understanding of why the mutations that you mentioned would happen in your earlier post wouldn't be stronger, more virulent strains, given what we've seen with bacteria in recent years.

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:56 AM
 
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-klinghoffer/the-dark-side-of-darwinis_b_630627.html

 

So, we have evolved throughout the millennia with defective immune systems, and now through the use of vaccines we are able to improve our immune systems to evolve into super humans. Sort of like transhumanism?

 

Do you think it might be possible that some of these self-limiting childhood diseases have any benefit for the organism? For example measles and less asthma, or mumps and less cancer of the ovaries? 

This made me laugh out loud :) No, absolutely not at all. Humans are in competition with their parasites and vice versa. This competition results in selection pressure that changes both organisms. Vaccines will never make us super humans LOL. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition

 

Are you suggesting that children and diseases have evolved a mutualism?   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(biology)

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:58 AM
 
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I think you make some great points. With pertussis though studies have shown that without herd immunity individuals are still open to infection. 

 

To live this way we would have to accept living in "harmony" with the viruses which does inevitably mean damage and deaths. I'm not sure that childhood diseases are an essential part of the world's ecology and as we have successfully created the extinctions of many other species I'm not sure we should just give up on mass vaccination as a solution. 


I think it's a bit misguided to assume that we can get rid of childhood illness through mass vaccination.  We've drastically lowered the rates of some of the illnesses, but kids still get sick.  If anything, kids these days are sicklier.

 

Also, given what we know about pertussis and the vaccine, I don't think the word "herd immunity" applies, and I doubt we've got an accurate idea of what the infection rate is (as opposed to the rate of diagnosis). 

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Old 02-05-2014, 07:58 AM
 
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I think you make some great points. With pertussis though studies have shown that without herd immunity individuals are still open to infection. 

 

To live this way we would have to accept living in "harmony" with the viruses which does inevitably mean damage and deaths. I'm not sure that childhood diseases are an essential part of the world's ecology and as we have successfully created the extinctions of many other species I'm not sure we should just give up on mass vaccination as a solution. 

 

There is no such thing as herd immunity with pertussis vaccine, it DOES NOT PREVENT TRANSMISSION.

 

I have a very hard time of accepting your belief that living in harmony with microbes inevitably means damage and death. Do you believe we are all victims and have no control over our reality? Do you know that every time you step into the ocean you are walking into a soup of viruses? Perhaps you should be wearing a hazmat suit when you next go for a swim?

 

You are essentially saying that "Science" should play God. Is this not then a religion? Vaccines as the holy magic water and the initiation or baptism into the Church of Science? Here in the US babies get to become members of the Church on the first day of birth.


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Old 02-05-2014, 08:02 AM
 
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At risk of sounding like a complete idiot (which I'm sure I will, but I'm actually okay with that because I'm really curious as to the answer to my question :) ), why is it less of a problem to have mutating viruses than the issue we are currently experiencing with mutating bacteria as a result of over-use of antibiotics? I realize that the two act differently in the body, but it seems to be well acknowledged in the medical community that the over-use of antibiotics has contributed to the evolution of these "super-bugs" that we're seeing that are causing us a lot of grief. What's to stop the viruses from becoming "super-viruses" that become far more difficult, if not impossible, for us to treat, leading to more deaths?

 

 

This makes sense to me, but I'm not sure why it's a good thing, so I'm trying to understand. Thanks!

I love your question rednightingale and I don't know all the answers. I'm wondering the same things to myself. The thing is with antibiotics, it is very important to use the full prescription rather than leaving a few lingering problem-bacteria in your system. The left over bacteria can contain mutations that made them better able to survive the antibiotic than the ones that already died, so when they multiply they may have increased antibiotic resistance. This also relates to the concept of herd immunity. If people in the community aren't vaccinated they are acting as a reservoir for mutations to multiply and infect the rest of the population. 

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Old 02-05-2014, 08:15 AM
 
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Thanks for trying to answer Rexeldexel. Do you have anything to support the idea that the unvaccinated are acting as reservoirs for mutations, or is it speculation because of another particular scientific theory? I ask because my generation (I'm not that old, for the record) hasn't had all the vaccinations that children are given now, but people don't seem to be nearly as concerned about the effect of the adult unvaccinated on herd immunity as they are about children. We also didn't see the rapid mutation of viruses that we weren't vaccinated against, as far as I've heard/know. If my under-vaccinated  (I suppose you could say he was unvaccinated for the several months of his remission leading up to his death, since he underwent three autologous stem cell transplants, and from what I understand, that wipes out any immunity previously acquired from vaccines, though I could have misunderstood) child would be considered a reservoir for disease, why wouldn't I? I'm not under vaccinated for my generation, but I certainly don't have all the vaccines that my daughter does, for example. (FTR, I don't do flu shots, so I guess I could be considered under vaccinated, but I don't find the evidence for getting a flu shot very compelling, given my own life situation.)

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Old 02-05-2014, 08:18 AM
 
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There is no such thing as herd immunity with pertussis vaccine, it DOES NOT PREVENT TRANSMISSION.

 

I have a very hard time of accepting your belief that living in harmony with microbes inevitably means damage and death. Do you believe we are all victims and have no control over our reality? Do you know that every time you step into the ocean you are walking into a soup of viruses? Perhaps you should be wearing a hazmat suit when you next go for a swim?

 

You are essentially saying that "Science" should play God. Is this not then a religion? Vaccines as the holy magic water and the initiation or baptism into the Church of Science? Here in the US babies get to become members of the Church on the first day of birth.

I don't know how you could misunderstand me so thoroughly Mirzam. I have no interest in anybody's religious beliefs in this forum. You are confusing science for religion although many many religious people manage to understand both at the same time. Evolutionary theory is a theory as strong as gravitational theory. If I were talking about gravity would you also accuse science of playing god? Evolution is not a faith belief. 

 

Everything living has a life strategy. Some form parasitic relationships, others form mutualisms and that briefly explains why some bacteria are "good" and some bacteria are "bad" for us. Everything is competing for resources eg energy. Plants gain energy from sunlight and as a result you can observe the structure of a woodland canopy from the highest tree tops, to the under storey to the ground and even below the ground as all the species live together in competition for the energy as it travels through the trophic systems. Childhood disease causing pathogens compete with a child's body for resources. Picture a flea living on an animal. That flea is competing with the animal for the energy value in its blood. The child's immune system responds to this invasion and chemical warfare ensues. That is the nature of parasitic microbes so if we are to live in harmony with them this is what we can all expect them to do.  

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Old 02-05-2014, 08:25 AM
 
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Thanks for trying to answer Rexeldexel. Do you have anything to support the idea that the unvaccinated are acting as reservoirs for mutations, or is it speculation because of another particular scientific theory? I ask because my generation (I'm not that old, for the record) hasn't had all the vaccinations that children are given now, but people don't seem to be nearly as concerned about the effect of the adult unvaccinated on herd immunity as they are about children. We also didn't see the rapid mutation of viruses that we weren't vaccinated against, as far as I've heard/know. If my under-vaccinated  (I suppose you could say he was unvaccinated for the several months of his remission leading up to his death, since he underwent three autologous stem cell transplants, and from what I understand, that wipes out any immunity previously acquired from vaccines, though I could have misunderstood) child would be considered a reservoir for disease, why wouldn't I? I'm not under vaccinated for my generation, but I certainly don't have all the vaccines that my daughter does, for example. (FTR, I don't do flu shots, so I guess I could be considered under vaccinated, but I don't find the evidence for getting a flu shot very compelling, given my own life situation.)

http://media.mycme.com/documents/34/omer_2009_8396.pdf

 

Try searching for "herd effect" or "disease risk unvaccinated population" with google scholar. Sorry I have to collect my daughter from school now otherwise I'd take more time in replying....

The ability of a particular bacteria or virus to mutate rapidly depends on its life history. I don't know if it's a useful example, but if you can imagine trying to breed elephants for a particular physical trait vs mice, it would take a lot longer with the elephants. It will depend on characteristics of the disease like where it lives in the body and what method of transmission it uses etc. How contagious is it and how long does it lie dormant?

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Old 02-05-2014, 08:52 AM
 
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I don't know how you could misunderstand me so thoroughly Mirzam. I have no interest in anybody's religious beliefs in this forum. You are confusing science for religion although many many religious people manage to understand both at the same time. Evolutionary theory is a theory as strong as gravitational theory. If I were talking about gravity would you also accuse science of playing god? Evolution is not a faith belief. 

 

Everything living has a life strategy. Some form parasitic relationships, others form mutualisms and that briefly explains why some bacteria are "good" and some bacteria are "bad" for us. Everything is competing for resources eg energy. Plants gain energy from sunlight and as a result you can observe the structure of a woodland canopy from the highest tree tops, to the under storey to the ground and even below the ground as all the species live together in competition for the energy as it travels through the trophic systems. Childhood disease causing pathogens compete with a child's body for resources. Picture a flea living on an animal. That flea is competing with the animal for the energy value in its blood. The child's immune system responds to this invasion and chemical warfare ensues. That is the nature of parasitic microbes so if we are to live in harmony with them this is what we can all expect them to do.  

 

No, I am not confusing 'science' with religion, it is your interpretation of 'science' that is religious. Again, I don't know if it is a language thing, but you are coming off as extremely condescending. You are just relaying your beliefs. I am probably not going to waste much more of my energy on addressing your posts - am half way through a long post about how vaccines produce mutant, weaponized viral strains, but I may not bother to finish it. It is frustrating for me to discuss these things with someone who's point of perception is so limited. I don't mean to be rude, but we will get absolutely nowhere because we are on completely different wavelengths. I thought you came on here to learn, but I guess you really came on to tell us non-vaxers a thing or two; to show us the error of our ways. By the way, you have shown me nothing I haven't heard already a zillion times. I don't care if you believe vaccines are the greatest medical invention ever created, and that through vaccines we can create a world of harmony without disease (see how religious that sounds?). I am not here to convert people to anti-vaccinationism, I am here for those who are are wanting to learn as much as they can about vaccines so that they can make an informed choice as to whether they want to utilize them or not. I have spent around 18 years exploring the issue of vaccines, and health and healing. I am also a student of the nature of reality and the more I learn, the more I know everything and I mean everything is bollocks. 


t
 
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Old 02-05-2014, 09:16 AM
 
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I think it's a bit misguided to assume that we can get rid of childhood illness through mass vaccination.  We've drastically lowered the rates of some of the illnesses, but kids still get sick.  If anything, kids these days are sicklier.

 

Also, given what we know about pertussis and the vaccine, I don't think the word "herd immunity" applies, and I doubt we've got an accurate idea of what the infection rate is (as opposed to the rate of diagnosis). 

I agree rachelsmama that kids will always get sick, but I think we should aim to reduce the damage of serious childhood diseases as much as possible, ideally to extinction.  I guess whether or not an infectious disease can be eradicated by vaccination depends on its life cycle and transmission dynamics. Smallpox and rinderpest are gone, polio may be gone next and others have been dramatically reduced too. 

 

Herd immunity clearly did apply to pertussis control until recently and now more research is needed before any conclusions can be drawn. 

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Old 02-05-2014, 09:33 AM
 
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No, I am not confusing 'science' with religion, it is your interpretation of 'science' that is religious. Again, I don't know if it is a language thing, but you are coming off as extremely condescending. You are just relaying your beliefs. I am probably not going to waste much more of my energy on addressing your posts - am half way through a long post about how vaccines produce mutant, weaponized viral strains, but I may not bother to finish it. It is frustrating for me to discuss these things with someone who's point of perception is so limited. I don't mean to be rude, but we will get absolutely nowhere because we are on completely different wavelengths. I thought you came on here to learn, but I guess you really came on to tell us non-vaxers a thing or two; to show us the error of our ways. By the way, you have shown me nothing I haven't heard already a zillion times. I don't care if you believe vaccines are the greatest medical invention ever created, and that through vaccines we can create a world of harmony without disease (see how religious that sounds?). I am not here to convert people to anti-vaccinationism, I am here for those who are are wanting to learn as much as they can about vaccines so that they can make an informed choice as to whether they want to utilize them or not. I have spent around 18 years exploring the issue of vaccines, and health and healing. I am also a student of the nature of reality and the more I learn, the more I know everything and I mean everything is bollocks. 

You have been really rude to me Mirzam. I think it is obvious that your education in health, healing and vaccines has not been based on the same science as mine because you have criticised or misunderstood the widely accepted scientific concepts I've mentioned. And as you say that everything is bollocks anyway I have no idea why you decided to be offended by mine (or societies version of modern science) in particular. Perhaps with your superior knowledge you might have condescended to teach me a new concept despite how "limited" my point of perception may be.

 

I never said that vaccines are the greatest medical vaccination ever invented. I never shared my religious views with you. I never mentioned a world of harmony without disease. 

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