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#31 of 57 Old 02-10-2014, 11:41 AM
 
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My point is homeopaths are frauds. Homeopathic remedies are sugar pills. And when people tell me that their sugar pills are curing them of illnesses, I am really not inclined to trust their judgment on things like vaccine reactions they claim to have witnessed. 

Wow. 

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#32 of 57 Old 02-10-2014, 11:44 AM
 
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My point is homeopaths are frauds. Homeopathic remedies are sugar pills. And when people tell me that their sugar pills are curing them of illnesses, I am really not inclined to trust their judgment on things like vaccine reactions they claim to have witnessed. 

Wow. 

Wow indeed.

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#33 of 57 Old 02-10-2014, 11:45 AM
 
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I'm done here. I've had enough sanctimonious negativity to last a lifetime.

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#34 of 57 Old 02-10-2014, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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well this certainly went off the rails. I'm really sorry, I was just curious and can't seem to find any articles explaining how they worked. Maybe I should have posted in the I'm not vaccinating board instead. 

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#35 of 57 Old 02-10-2014, 11:55 AM
 
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well this certainly went off the rails. I'm really sorry, I was just curious and can't seem to find any articles explaining how they worked. Maybe I should have posted in the I'm not vaccinating board instead. 

Give it a shot.  You might be able to ask if you word it very carefully.  

 

Fwiw, I do not know much about homeopathy, I have used them before with hit and miss results.  I don't really understand them (shrug).  I would use them again if I felt the need, though….no harm, no foul, and I do not care if I waste a bit of money, as I do not think homeopathy guarantees results. 

 

I would not use nosodes, though.  In addition to knowing very little about them, I just do not see the point.  Most diseases we vaccinate for are rare or mild.  

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#36 of 57 Old 02-10-2014, 11:57 AM
 
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well this certainly went off the rails. I'm really sorry, I was just curious and can't seem to find any articles explaining how they worked. Maybe I should have posted in the I'm not vaccinating board instead. 

That probably would have been wise. There is very little on these nosodes. I have a large collection of old homeopathic books (DH inherited them), when I get a chance I will see if I can find anything for you. Traditionally, they are given during an epidemic when there has been an exposure. I don't think they can be equated to traditional vaccines which illicit a humoral immune response. The production of antibodies is just one small part of the immune response, and short lived compared with cell immunity.

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#37 of 57 Old 02-10-2014, 01:07 PM
 
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To the OP -  Disclaimer:  I am not a practitioner - my mom took us to a homeopath when we were kids, I have a couple different homeopathic materia medica books on my shelf, and I've studied the general concepts in my herbal studies.

 

Using nosodes in the absence of symptoms (like an alternative to vaccines)  does not fit my understanding of homeopathy.  My learning comes from the classical homeopathic school of thought.  If I were to use any type of homeopathic remedy in the absence of symptoms, I would be inviting a "proving".  (symptoms arising in the absence of disease that point towards the symptoms that would indicate the use of the remedy if disease were present)

 

This article is a bit challenging to read because it uses classical homeopathic terminology, but it seems to have good information - according to my limited experience.  Numbers 7 and 8 address the issue of vaccines and prophylaxis.

http://www.simillimum.com/education/little-library/constitution-temperaments-and-miasms/nih/article.php

 

None of the info in the article points to the use of nosodes as a "vaccine" in the way we normally use vaccines.  Even the "prophylactic" approach is only used on children if the parents have had the disease and it is suspected that the children have inherited some of the disease patterns.

 

I think the best fit for nosodes in today's first world nations is as a supplement to modern vaccines - helping a person to utilized the vaccine well and possibly help prevent side effects.

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#38 of 57 Old 02-10-2014, 02:10 PM
 
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To answer the OP, this is what the British Homeopathic Association has to say about nosodes :

 

"There is no evidence to show that homeopathic medicines can be used instead of vaccination. The Faculty of Homeopathy recommends that immunisation is carried out in the usual way, unless there are strong medical contraindications."

 

"There are no proven homeopathic substitutes for immunisation. Some
people have suggested using ‘nosodes’ (homeopathic preparations of the
‘bugs’ which cause the diseases). There is currently no evidence that
nosodes are effective in humans. Relying on nosodes instead of immunisation
may create a false sense of security, since efficacy is not proven. " 

 

http://www.britishhomeopathic.org/faqs/

 

Additionally, 

 

"Philip Edmonds, chairman of the Society of Homeopaths said: "The Society does not endorse the use of homeopathic medicines as an alternative to vaccination for the prevention of serious infectious diseases and recommends that members of the public seek the advice of their GP, and/or relevant Department of Health guidelines, concerning vaccination and protection against disease."


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My point is homeopaths are frauds. Homeopathic remedies are sugar pills. And when people tell me that their sugar pills are curing them of illnesses, I am really not inclined to trust their judgment on things like vaccine reactions they claim to have witnessed. The human brain tries to find connections and patterns, even when they do not exist, and homeopathy, as well as say, "treating" viral illnesses with antibiotics, are proof.

Can you imagine if a parent went to report to VAERS and they were asked "Have you ever given your child Hyland's teething tablets?" 

 

"Well...I'm sorry your vaccine reaction has been deemed not valid because you used homeopathy.  NEXT!!!" 

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#40 of 57 Old 02-10-2014, 07:57 PM
 
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My point is homeopaths are frauds. Homeopathic remedies are sugar pills. And when people tell me that their sugar pills are curing them of illnesses, I am really not inclined to trust their judgment on things like vaccine reactions they claim to have witnessed. The human brain tries to find connections and patterns, even when they do not exist, and homeopathy, as well as say, "treating" viral illnesses with antibiotics, are proof.

 


I hope you have the same opinion about psychiatrists?  The most commonly used psychiatric "remedies," antidepressants,  are no more effective than sugar pills, though, unfortunately, they can't be called placebos because they have some serious adverse effects.

 

So that means that when people tell you that antidepressants cured them of their depression, you should not trust their judgement on whether or not vaccines helped prevent diseases.  The human brain tries to find connections and patterns, even when they do not exist, and antidepressants, as well as, say, flu shots, are proof.

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#41 of 57 Old 02-10-2014, 08:24 PM
 
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 when people tell me that their sugar pills are curing them of illnesses, I am really not inclined to trust their judgment on things like vaccine reactions they claim to have witnessed

 

The placebo effect is a strange, and very real, phenomenon. If someone was cured by a placebo, they might just be telling the truth. Science is still trying to figure out why this happens. A person could be telling the truth about sugar pill cures AND vaccine reactions. You never know!

 

I'm not implying that homeopathic remedies are placebos. I'm just trying to point out that a person might not be lying if s/he reports a cure from a placebo.


 
 
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#42 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 05:12 AM
 
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The placebo effect is a strange, and very real, phenomenon. If someone was cured by a placebo, they might just be telling the truth. Science is still trying to figure out why this happens. A person could be telling the truth about sugar pill cures AND vaccine reactions. You never know!

 

 

I'm not implying that homeopathic remedies are placebos. I'm just trying to point out that a person might not be lying if s/he reports a cure from a placebo.

 

The placebo effect merely demonstrates that the body is able to heal itself. And I too am not saying homeopathic remedies are placebos. 


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I have seen homeopathic remedies work on babies - beings too small to be affected by the placebo effect.  I have seen the same remedy work more than once - thus lessening the likelihood it was a coincidence.  

 

 I doubt my assessment of their condition was based on placebo effect.  I have seen homeopathy not work as well, so it isn't like I expect homeopathy to work.  


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#44 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 06:26 AM
 
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The placebo effect is fascinating, and I hope gets studied more. I keep touting Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science", but it clearly had a big impact on my - also has a great discussion of the placebo effect. 

 

I don't remember what Goldacr says about homeopathy, but I'm fairly confident it wouldn't have been complimentary. 


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#45 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 08:11 AM
 
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Antidepressants and flu shots should be included in discussions of placebo, as they are among the most widely-used medications that are about as effective as placebos, albeit with much higher potential for adverse reactions.

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#46 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 10:16 AM
 
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 I doubt my assessment of their condition was based on placebo effect.  I have seen homeopathy not work as well, so it isn't like I expect homeopathy to work.  

 

The nice thing about homeopathy is that if you use the wrong remedy for your symptom, nothing happens; there are no adverse effects. Can't say that about most pharma products, even if they eliminate the symptom.

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I don't know too much about it. I had teething tablets and well at least they distracted the kidlets. ;) My sister was given homeopathics in the hospital (a university hospital in Germany) during birth. She doesn't believe in them at all. Yet they miraculously helped, she can't explain why, and she's a doctor. My other sister is into homeopathic remedies and has a bunch. When we were all together in summer, one nephew had pink eye and quickly gave it to my kids. He was on a triple antibiotic eye drop rx from the ped. I tried euphrasia eye drops from the pharmacy (the pharmacist highly recommended them, and I figured let's try them before jumping on the antibiotic bandwagon, especially since my ped always said that's mostly viral, while MD sister claims it is bacterial in kids) and their eyes cleared in under 24 hours. My nephew's case took 3 days to achieve healing. I was quite surprised. I bought a bunch of Weleda Euphrasia D3 drops and brought them back with me, as pink eye is so common.

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#48 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 12:51 PM
 
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I don't know too much about it. I had teething tablets and well at least they distracted the kidlets. ;) My sister was given homeopathics in the hospital (a university hospital in Germany) during birth. She doesn't believe in them at all. Yet they miraculously helped, she can't explain why, and she's a doctor. 

 

I wonder why homeopathy is so much more popular with European doctors than it is with American ones, even though we used to have a lot of homeopathic hospitals at one time? I read its declining popularity was due to  A.M.A. influence, but haven't researched about it in-depth.

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I wonder why homeopathy is so much more popular with European doctors than it is with American ones, even though we used to have a lot of homeopathic hospitals at one time? I read its declining popularity was due to  A.M.A. influence, but haven't researched about it in-depth.

 

The Flexner Report.

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Thanks for that Mirzam! :-)

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#51 of 57 Old 02-17-2014, 04:12 AM
 
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Water. Real science from real scientists, I dare you to watch, you might learn something.

 

 

 

Just wanted to thank you Mirzam for making me laugh out loud in the living room and giving me cause to explain "Lizards from the Fourth Dimension" to my daughter. For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, the video with real scientists Mirzam dares us to watch is produced by the "People's Voice" TV channel owned by David Icke, who I should have heard of before but hadn't. He's "famous" for (among other things) believing that all of the world's leaders are "lizards from the fourth dimension". You can read all about him on wikpedia. My excuse for not knowing about him is that I was quite young when he claimed he was the son of god, had a famous media interview on mainstream UK TV and then disappeared from public life for a while. I looked him up before watching the video as I wondered if I could find a transcript of it (failed on that). 

 

 Anyway I haven't had time to watch the video after that (it is an hour long after all), but I'll try to squeeze it in at some point. If reading about the producer can amuse me so much I might enjoy it. 

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#52 of 57 Old 02-17-2014, 04:31 AM
 
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I don't know too much about it. I had teething tablets and well at least they distracted the kidlets. wink1.gif My sister was given homeopathics in the hospital (a university hospital in Germany) during birth. She doesn't believe in them at all. Yet they miraculously helped, she can't explain why, and she's a doctor. My other sister is into homeopathic remedies and has a bunch. When we were all together in summer, one nephew had pink eye and quickly gave it to my kids. He was on a triple antibiotic eye drop rx from the ped. I tried euphrasia eye drops from the pharmacy (the pharmacist highly recommended them, and I figured let's try them before jumping on the antibiotic bandwagon, especially since my ped always said that's mostly viral, while MD sister claims it is bacterial in kids) and their eyes cleared in under 24 hours. My nephew's case took 3 days to achieve healing. I was quite surprised. I bought a bunch of Weleda Euphrasia D3 drops and brought them back with me, as pink eye is so common.

When I had pinkeye, my doctor said that antibiotic eyedrops are absolutely useless for pinkeye. He told me to use hot, moist compresses every couple of hours, and to keep rinsing it clean (no soap), using a clean towel to dry each time.

It always cleared in 24 hours, and I haven't had it in about 20 years.

So maybe it's not so much that the homeopathic treatment worked so well, but that you weren't adding to the problem with antibiotics?
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#53 of 57 Old 02-17-2014, 05:40 AM
 
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Just wanted to thank you Mirzam for making me laugh out loud in the living room and giving me cause to explain "Lizards from the Fourth Dimension" to my daughter. For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, the video with real scientists Mirzam dares us to watch is produced by the "People's Voice" TV channel owned by David Icke, who I should have heard of before but hadn't. He's "famous" for (among other things) believing that all of the world's leaders are "lizards from the fourth dimension". You can read all about him on wikpedia. My excuse for not knowing about him is that I was quite young when he claimed he was the son of god, had a famous media interview on mainstream UK TV and then disappeared from public life for a while. I looked him up before watching the video as I wondered if I could find a transcript of it (failed on that). 

 

 Anyway I haven't had time to watch the video after that (it is an hour long after all), but I'll try to squeeze it in at some point. If reading about the producer can amuse me so much I might enjoy it. 

 

*giggle snort*

 

Is he the same person that owns wale?  I know that site buys into the reptilian overlords conspiracy as well.  


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#54 of 57 Old 02-17-2014, 08:02 AM
 
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Prosciecemum, laugh away, if it makes your feel superior, go for it! Too bad you can't judge a program by its content. David Icke had nothing to do with show. There is no talk of shape-shifting reptiles, just the latest science of water, of which you appear to be unaware.

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#55 of 57 Old 02-17-2014, 08:31 AM
 
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there is just nothing to it! …….why on earth would the English royal family use it since the 19th century!? oh, I fancy a spot of tea :tea


 

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Just a note that there's a Horizon special on the Placebo Effect tonight on BBC TV. Doubt I'll watch it tonight (or soon), but try to find time somewhere. I think the placebo effect is truly fascinating. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mgxf


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#57 of 57 Old 02-17-2014, 10:27 AM
 
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Just a note that there's a Horizon special on the Placebo Effect tonight on BBC TV. Doubt I'll watch it tonight (or soon), but try to find time somewhere. I think the placebo effect is truly fascinating. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mgxf

maybe placebo instead of vaccines are the way to do it! :bgbounce

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