Chicken Pox, and the rest of the VPD! Are we treating disease correctly? - Mothering Forums

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Old 02-17-2014, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Since most can admit VPD still are happening, and happening to those who are vaccinated, are we treating them correctly when they do occur?

 

Take chicken pox - I see many reach for that calamine bottle and start splattering it on - but is this just contributing to more and serious complication? 

 

With calamine, you simply would not know if you were even having a reaction since the waring signs are the same as what you think you are treating - itching, swelling, etc - http://www.medicinenet.com/calamine_lotion-topical/page2.htm

 

not to mention you want the toxins to be released yet so many are coving them up - is this really best? http://avivahwerner.com/2011/10/16/natural-chickenpox-remedies/

 

 

What about the rest - are you doing it right?

 

ETA- I would also like to bring up and discus the use of antibiotics in the treatment of VPD and while we also all know about over-use, how prevalent is it still with VPD?


 

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Old 02-17-2014, 08:39 AM
 
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I have a library full of old medical books, mostly homeopathic ones, many deal with the common childhood illnesses, and from the perspective of if they get serious enough to call in the doctor. I don't really have time to search through some of them right now, but I will try and get to this later today, if I can. It might be interesting to see how these disease were treated and the success rates for treatment, from the early to mid part of last century.

 

I can tell you what I did when my kiddos got chicken pox, not a lot, because they were't particularly sick - DS doesn't consider it one of the [few] times he has been sick. I did use some homeopathic remedies to help with the itching. I think I used Rhus Tox on DS, and am not sure what I used for DD, I have at home Antimonium Tartaricum which I suspect is what I gave her, this is pretty much specific for chicken pox. The other common remedy is Sulpher. I would have given them double or triple doses of fermented CLO, for the vitamin A, during the course of the illness and foods high in vitamin C. I didn't give them a lot to eat, usually the appetite is suppressed during chicken pox, and as it is a liver cleansing, this is why kids with chicken pox can get angry, that was the first sign that alerted me to DD having chicken pox, she was unusually out of salts. It is best to let the digestion rest (IMO), if my kids would have eaten it, bone broth is an excellent mineral rich food to give. 


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Old 02-17-2014, 10:12 AM
 
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Since most can admit VPD still are happening, and happening to those who are vaccinated, are we treating them correctly when they do occur?

 

Take chicken pox - I see many reach for that calamine bottle and start splattering it on - but is this just contributing to more and serious complication? 

 

With calamine, you simply would not know if you were even having a reaction since the waring signs are the same as what you think you are treating - itching, swelling, etc - http://www.medicinenet.com/calamine_lotion-topical/page2.htm

 

not to mention you want the toxins to be released yet so many are coving them up - is this really best? http://avivahwerner.com/2011/10/16/natural-chickenpox-remedies/

 

 

What about the rest - are you doing it right?

 

ETA- I would also like to bring up and discus the use of antibiotics in the treatment of VPD and while we also all know about over-use, how prevalent is it still with VPD?

 

I would worry about topical treatments being another way to introduce infection. If I had to treat a chickenpox rash, I'd prefer to put mitts on the kid to keep from scratching. Most people keep old calamine bottles around for quite awhile, and the contents could easily get contaminated with staph after the first few uses.

 

As far as covering up toxins-- what toxins are you talking about? In theory, calamine will dessicate the virus that comes out of the sores, as well as everything else.

Old fashioned calamine doesn't really "cover" the wound the way a petroleum-based product would. It dehydrates everything that comes out, and all those toxins or whatever can be washed off the skin later. They aren't trapped under the skin by the lotion.

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Old 02-17-2014, 10:19 AM
 
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I also, should have added, that I would never give antipyretics (Tylenol/Paracetamol especially), but also the antipyretics that are synthesized via the liver (the liver is stressed during chicken pox). If you are uncomfortable with letting the fever run its course (my kids did not have a fever), I would utilize non-pharmaceutical methods to reduce it.


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Old 02-17-2014, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I would worry about topical treatments being another way to introduce infection. If I had to treat a chickenpox rash, I'd prefer to put mitts on the kid to keep from scratching. Most people keep old calamine bottles around for quite awhile, and the contents could easily get contaminated with staph after the first few uses.

 

As far as covering up toxins-- what toxins are you talking about? In theory, calamine will dessicate the virus that comes out of the sores, as well as everything else.

Old fashioned calamine doesn't really "cover" the wound the way a petroleum-based product would. It dehydrates everything that comes out, and all those toxins or whatever can be washed off the skin later. They aren't trapped under the skin by the lotion.

 

 

I didn't say infection from topical treatments, you want to avoid one!

 

You want it to dry naturally not with the aid of any chemical on the skin. First unless you have preciously used calamine you simply would have a hard time knowing if you were having a reaction from it or if it was the natural itching involved with CP. Secondly because of the ingredients you want to avoid it getting in you, with a child you would be having a hard time if they do scratch and get it on their hands and in their mouth- the bottle even says to watch out for that. 

 

Years ago you kept as little clothing on the child as possible and let air be your helper in drying up the spots. Your body is trying to release the toxins from the illness, other wise you would not be having spots in the first place or shingles or herpes-an outbreak.


 

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Old 02-17-2014, 11:13 AM
 
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I think parents are now less educated about chicken pox than they used to be, perhaps because...so is the medical community?

 

I recently saw someone post on-line that their child has chicken pox, and they expect their child to have to miss 4-5 days of daycare, apparently not realizing that new spots can continue to appear for several days. It's usually about 10 days until all the spots have crusted over, so I don't know why anyone would think that their child will only miss 4-5 days--unless that's what their doctor told them (which makes me suspect that the medical community is no longer knowledgable about chicken pox).

 

Perhaps it's such misunderstandings about chicken pox which contribute to both spread of illness and complications.  That would certainly feed into the "omg, we gotta VACCINATE for it!" mentality.

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Old 02-17-2014, 11:17 AM
 
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One possibility for chicken pox treatment is L-lysine, which is known to help inactivate herpes viruses.

However, I don't think there have been any studies on its effectiveness for herpes zoster, though studies apparently indicate usefulness for herpes simplex.

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Old 02-17-2014, 12:55 PM
 
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Apparently, this person http://imgur.com/a/Z5NaP was prescribed not one but TWO courses of antibiotics--for her chicken pox. The first course was prescribed the day she broke out, so it certainly wasn't because of a bacterial infection at that point.

 

Can't help wondering if that initial round of antibiotics made her chicken pox more severe, or enabled a subsequent infection.

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Old 02-17-2014, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Apparently, this person http://imgur.com/a/Z5NaP was prescribed not one but TWO courses of antibiotics--for her chicken pox. The first course was prescribed the day she broke out, so it certainly wasn't because of a bacterial infection at that point.

 

Can't help wondering if that initial round of antibiotics made her chicken pox more severe, or enabled a subsequent infection.

yes and she was not a candidate for the vaccine either

 

give meds ask question later! 


 

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Old 02-17-2014, 01:38 PM
 
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And she "snuck out and got fast food" because she couldn't stand being cooped up in the house...wonder how many people she infected, and if any of them had compromised immune systems, were on chemo, etc.

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Old 02-17-2014, 01:40 PM
 
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Apparently, this person http://imgur.com/a/Z5NaP was prescribed not one but TWO courses of antibiotics--for her chicken pox. The first course was prescribed the day she broke out, so it certainly wasn't because of a bacterial infection at that point.

 

Can't help wondering if that initial round of antibiotics made her chicken pox more severe, or enabled a subsequent infection.

 

I'm guessing she was prescribed Aciclovir.  "Aciclovir is used to treat two common viral infections - varicella-zoster and herpes simplex. The varicella-zoster virus is the cause of chickenpox and shingles. Herpes simplex viruses cause cold sores and genital herpes. Aciclovir works by preventing viruses from multiplying, and this reduces the severity of the infection and stops it from spreading. As well as treating infections, aciclovir can also be prescribed to prevent some viral infections from occurring. This is particularly the case in people who have a lowered immune system. (Note: antiviral medication is not normally advised for healthy children who develop chickenpox.)"  http://www.patient.co.uk/medicine/aciclovir-for-viral-infections-zovirax

 

"Antiviral drugs such as aciclovir can limit the severity of chickenpox. These drugs do not kill the virus, but stop the virus from multiplying. Adults with chickenpox may be advised to take an antiviral drug - but only if the drug can be started within 24 hours of the rash first developing. If it is started after this time it is not likely to have much of an effect. So, if started on time, an antiviral drug may help to reduce the severity of the illness." http://www.patient.co.uk/health/chickenpox-in-adults-and-teenagers

 

Per the bolded, she says in the comments of her original post on reddit 

 

[–]amusicalheart[S] 182 points 5 months ago

Well I am on an infusion medication called Remicade for my CUC. It's an immune suppressor, so it makes sense that I would catch stuff." 

 

So looks like in this case, the medication was warranted.  Not only is it *supposed* to be given within 24 hours of the rash developing, this medication is especially important for people who have suppressed immune systems like she does. 


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Old 02-17-2014, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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And she "snuck out and got fast food" because she couldn't stand being cooped up in the house...wonder how many people she infected, and if any of them had compromised immune systems, were on chemo, etc.

being on meds prior and taking "whatever"(since it's not clear I won't speculate- I don't know her medical history) certainly doesn't seem to have helped much in this case based on her photos, that certainly doesn't excuse the fact she is a very irresponsible person who herself should have known better

 

​but people think nothing of going out or sending their children back to school at inappropriate times


 

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Old 02-17-2014, 02:54 PM
 
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I'm guessing she was prescribed Aciclovir.  "Aciclovir is used to treat two common viral infections - varicella-zoster and herpes simplex. The varicella-zoster virus is the cause of chickenpox and shingles. Herpes simplex viruses cause cold sores and genital herpes. Aciclovir works by preventing viruses from multiplying, and this reduces the severity of the infection and stops it from spreading. As well as treating infections, aciclovir can also be prescribed to prevent some viral infections from occurring. This is particularly the case in people who have a lowered immune system. (Note: antiviral medication is not normally advised for healthy children who develop chickenpox.)"  http://www.patient.co.uk/medicine/aciclovir-for-viral-infections-zovirax

 

"Antiviral drugs such as aciclovir can limit the severity of chickenpox. These drugs do not kill the virus, but stop the virus from multiplying. Adults with chickenpox may be advised to take an antiviral drug - but only if the drug can be started within 24 hours of the rash first developing. If it is started after this time it is not likely to have much of an effect. So, if started on time, an antiviral drug may help to reduce the severity of the illness." http://www.patient.co.uk/health/chickenpox-in-adults-and-teenagers

 

Per the bolded, she says in the comments of her original post on reddit 

 

[–]amusicalheart[S] 182 points 5 months ago

Well I am on an infusion medication called Remicade for my CUC. It's an immune suppressor, so it makes sense that I would catch stuff." 

 

So looks like in this case, the medication was warranted.  Not only is it *supposed* to be given within 24 hours of the rash developing, this medication is especially important for people who have suppressed immune systems like she does. 


Per her comments on reddit:

"The day I got diagnosed.  It started out with three small pimple like bumps on the side of my nose that I tried to pop.  They just hurt and I broke out like this the next day and went to the doc.  No biggie, prescribed antibiotics and took off a week from work."

"Day six. Apparently my body didn't respond to the original antibiotics they gave me, so my pox developed a very rare infection that my doctors and dermatologist claimed that they had only seen on slides in med school. So they gave me some different, stronger and repurposed antibiotics and some special soap."

No mention of antivirals. Just antibiotics.


Wondering if the doctor who gave her antibiotics for chicken pox knew she was on Remicade for Chronic Ulcerative Colitis?  
Remicade has not been extensively studied for drug interactions, according to http://ibdcrohns.about.com/od/remicade/a/remicadefaq.htm   Remicade certainly increases one's susceptibility to chickenpox/shingles, as does inflammatory bowel disease.  
 

As an aside, I know an awful lot of people who were diagnosed with IBS, IBD, or chronic Crohn's, who all turned out to have celiac disease instead....

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Old 02-18-2014, 10:09 AM
 
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Per her comments on reddit:

"The day I got diagnosed.  It started out with three small pimple like bumps on the side of my nose that I tried to pop.  They just hurt and I broke out like this the next day and went to the doc.  No biggie, prescribed antibiotics and took off a week from work."

"Day six. Apparently my body didn't respond to the original antibiotics they gave me, so my pox developed a very rare infection that my doctors and dermatologist claimed that they had only seen on slides in med school. So they gave me some different, stronger and repurposed antibiotics and some special soap."

No mention of antivirals. Just antibiotics.

 

 

Yes, that's why I said I think what she was actually given was acyclovir.  It's recommended for people who get chickenpox after the age of 12, and especially for people who have a suppressed immune system like she did.  She didn't mention being initially prescribed two medications and the description makes it sound a lot like an antibiotic to a lay person. "A medication called acyclovir (Zovirax®) can help shorten or combat the varicella infection if it is started within 24 hours of the rash developing."  http://www.uptodate.com/contents/chickenpox-prevention-and-treatment-beyond-the-basics

 

Of course there is no way to be 100% sure without directly asking her to look at her medical records, but it seems to be a pretty standard protocol medication to give adults with chickenpox (ESPECIALLY ones with compromised immune systems).  And in combination with the fact that she said she started it the day after first noticing spots, it seems almost certain that this is what was prescribed.  If it wasn't, it looks like it sure should have been. 


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Old 02-18-2014, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, that's why I said I think what she was actually given was acyclovir.  It's recommended for people who get chickenpox after the age of 12, and especially for people who have a suppressed immune system like she did.  She didn't mention being initially prescribed two medications and the description makes it sound a lot like an antibiotic to a lay person. "A medication called acyclovir (Zovirax®) can help shorten or combat the varicella infection if it is started within 24 hours of the rash developing."  http://www.uptodate.com/contents/chickenpox-prevention-and-treatment-beyond-the-basics

 

Of course there is no way to be 100% sure without directly asking her to look at her medical records, but it seems to be a pretty standard protocol medication to give adults with chickenpox (ESPECIALLY ones with compromised immune systems).  And in combination with the fact that she said she started it the day after first noticing spots, it seems almost certain that this is what was prescribed.  If it wasn't, it looks like it sure should have been. 

and you are a lay person - correct? 


 

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Old 02-18-2014, 10:36 AM
 
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and you are a lay person - correct? 

 

Correct, I am not a doctor.  I would not have known what acyclovir was without looking it up.   Especially if the description I was given was that it "combats" infection I would have probably assumed it was an antibiotic. 


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Old 02-18-2014, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Correct, I am not a doctor.  I would not have known what acyclovir was without looking it up.   Especially if the description I was given was that it "combats" infection I would have probably assumed it was an antibiotic. 

 

and you certainly do not know what this woman took

 

what we do know (in her own words) is she knew what she had and she went out in public with it - wonder if she is UP-to-DATE with her DTwP or DTaP or the rest of things! 


 

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Old 02-18-2014, 12:13 PM
 
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Yeah, chicken pox is no biggie. What did we do? Partied on the couch and watched every episode.of blues clues on netflix. We don't usually.watch tv, so the kids thought it was great. Oh yeah, and immune boosting...well, I was newly.pg.with number 4, and exhausted and sick. So,.we ate.a lot of dry cereal and orange juice. Dd1 was the only one to feel very bad, so we.did give her a baking soda bath once, and some extra sodium ascorbate a few times. She really was only very sick for about 24 hours. Ds was fine. Dd2 was a baby, and seemed dizzy for a day or so (she was 10 months). Now, at 5, she is by far my most coordinated, so it didn't seem to harm her.
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:28 PM
 
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We know she went out looking pretty scary still. She was on day 10 though, so may not have been contagious? I can't tell from the picture if her sores were all scabs or not.

It's possible that she was prescribed antibiotics at the start, but given that she doesn't seem to question why she would be on antibiotics, I think it more likely she was prescribed the antiviral and didn't really understand what she was getting.
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:20 PM
 
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Yes, that's why I said I think what she was actually given was acyclovir.  It's recommended for people who get chickenpox after the age of 12, and especially for people who have a suppressed immune system like she did.  She didn't mention being initially prescribed two medications and the description makes it sound a lot like an antibiotic to a lay person. "A medication called acyclovir (Zovirax®) can help shorten or combat the varicella infection if it is started within 24 hours of the rash developing."  http://www.uptodate.com/contents/chickenpox-prevention-and-treatment-beyond-the-basics

 

Of course there is no way to be 100% sure without directly asking her to look at her medical records, but it seems to be a pretty standard protocol medication to give adults with chickenpox (ESPECIALLY ones with compromised immune systems).  And in combination with the fact that she said she started it the day after first noticing spots, it seems almost certain that this is what was prescribed.  If it wasn't, it looks like it sure should have been. 

 

You jumped to conclusions, didn't you?  

In many of her other posts, the young woman lists the names of her medications, AND what they are for.  She has some chronic illnesses, and has clearly taken many medications over the years.  

It's very insulting for you to assume that the woman didn't know what medication she'd been given.  It's the same kind of condescending attitude that people have when they assume that a parent didn't REALLY see a vaccine reaction, they just imagined it.  Nice.

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Old 02-18-2014, 05:17 PM
 
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You jumped to conclusions, didn't you?  

In many of her other posts, the young woman lists the names of her medications, AND what they are for.  She has some chronic illnesses, and has clearly taken many medications over the years.  

It's very insulting for you to assume that the woman didn't know what medication she'd been given.  It's the same kind of condescending attitude that people have when they assume that a parent didn't REALLY see a vaccine reaction, they just imagined it.  Nice.

 

Knowing the name/being familiar with a medication you take (presumably) everyday for years and years is quite different than knowing/being familiar with a one time prescription for a relatively rare condition (adult chickenpox). 

 

Again, noticing something happening after a vaccine does not mean a vaccine *caused* that reaction.   This is an article about a mother who was convinced for 10 years that her daughter's seizure disorder was caused by her DPT vaccine.  It turned out she had a genetic disorder called Dravet Syndrome.  It is caused by a genetic mutation present at birth.  

 

Her mother says "Without a diagnosis, Cossolotto said, she would probably still believe — erroneously — that the DPT shot caused Michaela’s illness. “I understand this is a genetic condition,” she said. “Having an answer does make a difference.” 

 

Also interesting is this part of the article "A 2011 report in the journal Pediatrics found that five children presumed to have neurological damage caused by the DPT shot were later discovered to have Dravet." 

 

And yes, the article says that the seizure disorder may have been triggered from the fever after the vaccine, but it would have been triggered by ANY fever or illness.  A fever from a vaccine triggering an underlying genetic disorder is not the same thing as a vaccine *causing* a seizure disorder.   It would be like saying a horse that triggers an asthma attack *caused* the asthma.  That's actually a true story. On a class field trip in kindergarten a classmate had a terrible asthma attack at a farm, had to be rushed to the ER, nearly died.  The horse did not CAUSE her asthma though, it triggered an attack which led to her getting diagnosed with asthma. 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/medical-mysteries-seizures-hit-baby-girl-soon-after-she-had-routine-shots/2011/12/21/gIQAfkbAdQ_story.html


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Old 02-18-2014, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Knowing the name/being familiar with a medication you take (presumably) everyday for years and years is quite different than knowing/being familiar with a one time prescription for a relatively rare condition (adult chickenpox). 

 

Again, noticing something happening after a vaccine does not mean a vaccine *caused* that reaction.   This is an article about a mother who was convinced for 10 years that her daughter's seizure disorder was caused by her DPT vaccine.  It turned out she had a genetic disorder called Dravet Syndrome.  It is caused by a genetic mutation present at birth.  

 

Her mother says "Without a diagnosis, Cossolotto said, she would probably still believe — erroneously — that the DPT shot caused Michaela’s illness. “I understand this is a genetic condition,” she said. “Having an answer does make a difference.” 

 

Also interesting is this part of the article "A 2011 report in the journal Pediatrics found that five children presumed to have neurological damage caused by the DPT shot were later discovered to have Dravet." 

 

And yes, the article says that the seizure disorder may have been triggered from the fever after the vaccine, but it would have been triggered by ANY fever or illness.  A fever from a vaccine triggering an underlying genetic disorder is not the same thing as a vaccine *causing* a seizure disorder.   It would be like saying a horse that triggers an asthma attack *caused* the asthma.  That's actually a true story. On a class field trip in kindergarten a classmate had a terrible asthma attack at a farm, had to be rushed to the ER, nearly died.  The horse did not CAUSE her asthma though, it triggered an attack which led to her getting diagnosed with asthma. 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/medical-mysteries-seizures-hit-baby-girl-soon-after-she-had-routine-shots/2011/12/21/gIQAfkbAdQ_story.html

what does this have to do with treating chicken pox or any other VPD? :dizzy


 

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Old 02-18-2014, 06:25 PM
 
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what does this have to do with treating chicken pox or any other VPD? :dizzy

It was in response to Taximom's post.

 

"It's the same kind of condescending attitude that people have when they assume that a parent didn't REALLY see a vaccine reaction, they just imagined it.  Nice." 

 

This mother was clearly wrong about what caused her daughter's seizure disorder.  Apparently, that can't happen when it comes to vaccines according to some members here. Insinuating that a mother might be wrong about a vaccine reaction has resulted in me being called anti woman and other things.  Apparently, once someone has a child they automatically become experts in medicine, science, biology and genetic disorders.  *eye roll*  


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Old 02-18-2014, 06:46 PM
 
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 Apparently, once someone has a child they apparently become experts in medicine, science, biology and genetic disorders.  *eye roll*  

They are experts in their own children.


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Old 02-18-2014, 06:48 PM
 
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They are experts in their own children.

 

No they aren't. 


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Old 02-18-2014, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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 Apparently, once someone has a child they automatically become experts in medicine, science, biology and genetic disorders.  *eye roll*  

and you claim to have a child - how pompous of you and insulating to others on a message board for mothers!

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They are experts in their own children.

:yeah 


 

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Old 02-18-2014, 07:11 PM
 
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No they aren't. 

Yes they are.  We can do this all day. I have 3 kids aged 11-18.  Without being snotty, I suspect my opinion is slightly more informed by experience than yours.  


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Old 02-18-2014, 07:22 PM
 
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Yes they are.  We can do this all day. I have 3 kids aged 11-18.  Without being snotty, I suspect my opinion is slightly more informed by experience than yours.  

 

I guess we could.  Lets get rid of all diagnostic testing then since parents are experts of their own children.  Parents should just instinctively "know" that their child has Dravet Syndrome for example. 

 

Let's just perform appendectomies on children based on whether or not the parent thinks their child has appendicitis.  

 

You see how ridiculous this notion is? 


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Old 02-18-2014, 07:23 PM
 
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In any event, back to chicken pox.

 

Serenbat, I remember calamine being used on kids when I had CP (1980). 

 

I also remember oatmeal baths and being bored because I had to stay in the house.  I had a very light case.

 

I don't think there was any worry about calamine and infection…actually I have only heard worries about chicken pox and secondary infections in the last few years.  It is probably due to the chicken pox vaccine (let's hype up a possibility!)  but I also wonder if people are a little more prone to secondary infections nowadays.  Totally anecdotal, but I know two women who managed to get staph infections in the last 6 months from fairly minor lacerations.  


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Old 02-18-2014, 08:37 PM
 
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I honestly believe we are seeing more secondary infections these days. I might ask some friends about this. I know mrsa is watched for closely in local hospitals.
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