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#91 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 05:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

This is such an old line and has been explained so many times it's hard to believe people are still using it. 

 

Vaccines are not 100% effective. 

 

It's like asking a police officer why they care if I grab a gun and shoot them in the chest since they are wearing a bullet proof vest. 

 

Of course it's significantly safer for them to be wearing one in the event that they get shot, but that doesn't mean that it's 100% effective or that they want people to deliberately test it. 

 

Would you be OK with someone shooting you in the chest just because you were wearing a bullet proof vest? What if it was your child wearing the vest? would you be ok with people testing it?  If not, does that mean you think bullet proof vests are worthless and don't work? 

 

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I'm not worried.  However, if I thought I had likely been exposed to measles, I would try to minimize situations where I would spread it as much as reasonably possible and make a point to avoid those who are particularly vulnerable because there is a very small chance I am not immune and better safe than sorry. 

 

But pretend for a second I am not vaccinated and had never had measles so had no reason to believe myself immune when I traveled to the Netherlands or France or wherever and sat down to lunch with someone who was coming down with measles and contagious a day or two before I was due to leave.  People are saying that I couldn't bring it home with me on the plane and infect others with it here. I am still waiting for an explanation as to why this is impossible. 

 

My kids brought norovirus home from school and infected me with it a few months ago.. .oh wasn't that fun, and as I mentioned above, I brought a cold with me from Canada and gave it to my parents and who knows who else in the states at one point.  So why couldn't this sort of thing happen with measles?

Did you read what I posted earlier in the thread?

 

OR are you just afraid of ONLY those who you know have a disease from ONLY certain countries that came on the PLANE? OR are you just worked up over the FEAR of measles? :eyesroll since each post you keep moving in a different direction it hard to grasp this FEAR of measles when so much else is out there! Remember those caveats needed for discrimination

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What about that plane ride, or a bus ride with that newly/freshly vacced US military personal who just had their Anthrax or (something else) vac and has to take emergency leave to go to their parents funeral - afraid of them too, that is IF YOU KNOW about it? Who has had what and is sitting next to you? http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/03/17/father-military-smallpox-vaccination-sends-toddler-to-hospital/

and sex too - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/06/health/research/06risk.html?_r=3&ref=science&

 

 

 

 

ETA- risk of disease (of all type, not just VPD) can and do happen ever place, yet somehow it is "expectable" to use the phrase "plane ride away" and have it mean ONLY certain foreigners and ONLY certain disease - it's the new justification for xenophobic just all dressed up! 

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#92 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 07:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

Vaccines are not 100% effective. 

 

 

and let's remember even if 100% that could were vaccinated it still would not be 100% effective, if you want the risk you are free to take it for you and your child, it does not mean the rest of us need to do so :bgbounce 

 

going after others also is not effective either but you must not know that 

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#93 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 08:30 AM
 
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I am deeply troubled by the notion that the weaker and less effective a pharmaceutical product is, the more hardline government officials need to get in making sure that absolutely everybody uses it. It gives no incentive to drug companies to make an effective vaccine.

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#94 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 12:18 PM
 
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pers….I think you have run a bit too far with your question.

 

The phrase "a plane ride away" is different than "so you have been to an area with a significant mealses outbreak…"

 

One is specific and involves actual or likely exposure and one is overly sweeping with no destination, no disease, etc

 

As per your question…of course I do not think N. America has a force field around it (snort).  

 

If I was in an area with a significant outbreak, or knew I had been exposed,  I would avoid hugging babies and the like until I knew I did not have measles.  

 

So you accept the specific example of how someone could bring measles from a country that has it to a country that does not? 

 

But you reject the general idea that travel can spread diseases from one country to another?

 

Okay then. 

 

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Even though they know it's not 100%, and even if 100% were vaccinated they still would not work 100% - but they want others to be shot up NO MATTER WHAT and still push "plane ride away"!

ONLY certain people from ONLY certain countries and only NOW certain disease, and don't say "dirty"- are "just a plane ride away"……….good to know the caveats needed for discrimination:irked 

 

this ever changing mantra to selectively go after others - great attitude - ONE I DO NOT SHARE!

 

 

This is a vaccine forum, so only specific diseases in relation to vaccines.  "A plane ride away" comes up in relation to vaccines in answer to the question "why should we vaccinate for diseases that are no longer circulating in North America?"  Answer: because in this world of globalization, as long as the disease still exists, a disease transmitted easily from person to person has the potential to come back. 

 

A plane ride away is basically the same as singing "it's a small world after all."  It can be a very small world in some ways today. 

 

In general terms of disease leaving vaccine out of it, then yes, a "plane ride away" is used to represent the idea that globalization and world travel mean that diseases originating here (such as that possible new polio-virus in California, perhaps?) could be transmitted abroad by someone unknowingly travelling after exposure and then exposing people at their destination.  

 

That travel and trade can spread disease is just the way it has always been.  You can follow the course of diseases throughout European and world history along trade routes.  Smallpox and Measles did not exist in North America until they were brought over by Europeans.  There is no evidence of syphilus in pre-Coumbian Europe, and this disease was most likely brought back from the Americas. 

 

Globalization means that any localized outbreak of a disease that is spread from person to person has the potential to spread pretty much anywhere whether it originates in the States or Canada or a European country or Africa or wherever.  This is what "a plane ride away" means in broader terms than vaccination.  It can be a very small world sometimes when people regularly travel halfway around it in the course of a day. 

 

That's the facts if it.  How can anyone argue that people who are sick should stay home from schools/work/social gatherings to avoid spreading their illness, yet deny the possibility that if they were to get on a plane as they were coming down with it, they could spread it at their destination?

 

To hold this against any particular people or ethnicity or nationality or foreigners in general and suggest that we close our borders or do something to keep "undesirables" out on this basis is xenophobia. 

 

To merely acknowledge that a disease could be brought here?  To be open to free trade and tourism from all despite this, but instead suggest precautions such as maintaining our own herd immunity and maybe postponing a trip if you are getting sick and tracking diseases/keeping an eye out for signs/and having a plan to track contacts and quarantine as appropriate if a danerous disease is found?  How are these things xenophobic?

 

Polio and measles still exist in the world.  We don't really need to worry about them coming back here right now though because we still have a high enough vaccination rate to keep them from taking hold, so what is there to be afraid of?

 

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by the way - according to the CDC  you don't need special precautions/warning listed for those traveling to the Netherlands,  http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/destinations/traveler/none/netherlands

 

No special precautions, but they do recommend being up to date on vaccines including MMR, same as anywhere else.

 

I don't see any reason to avoid the Netherlands or fear people from it. Just picked it at random from countries which have had a fair number of measles cases lately. 

 

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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

 

ETA- risk of disease (of all type, not just VPD) can and do happen ever place, yet somehow it is "expectable" to use the phrase "plane ride away" and have it mean ONLY certain foreigners and ONLY certain disease - it's the new justification for xenophobic just all dressed up! 

 

Anyone from anywhere including here has the potential to carry whatever diseases they may have been exposed to with them to their destination when they travel. 

 

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I am deeply troubled by the notion that the weaker and less effective a pharmaceutical product is, the more hardline government officials need to get in making sure that absolutely everybody uses it. It gives no incentive to drug companies to make an effective vaccine.

 

Well, I really hope they get to work on a better pertussis vaccine, if they are not already. 

 

Beyond that though, is it possible to make a vaccine truly 100% effective?  I doubt it.  For vaccines that are working pretty well, is it worth the huge amount of money and research that it would take taht might not even manage to improve them?  Wouldn't that money be better spent on better treatment for cancer or such that are stilll problems?

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#95 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 12:31 PM
 
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That's the facts if it.  How can anyone argue that people who are sick should stay home from schools/work/social gatherings to avoid spreading their illness, yet deny the possibility that if they were to get on a plane as they were coming down with it, they could spread it at their destination?

 

...

 

Polio and measles still exist in the world.  We don't really need to worry about them coming back here right now though because we still have a high enough vaccination rate to keep them from taking hold, so what is there to be afraid of?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In many cases, people (from other countries AND from this one) are spreading the most germs the day or two BEFORE they become symptomatic.  The only reason it is relevant that there are people from other countries is NOT because of xenophobia, but because it's proof that we don't have herd immunity.  Period.

 

Actually, if you're bringing up polio, we have everything to worry about.  There seems to be a resurgence of acute flaccid paralysis (which in the 1950's became the label for polio cases in those who had been vaccinated for polio), and nobody seems to be able to figure out where it's coming from.  That IS worrisome.

 

Even more worrisome is the refusal to look at possibilities that vaccine ingredients might play a causal role in acute flaccid paralysis, as well as other severe autoimmune conditions.

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#96 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 12:50 PM
 
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In many cases, people (from other countries AND from this one) are spreading the most germs the day or two BEFORE they become symptomatic.  The only reason it is relevant that there are people from other countries is NOT because of xenophobia, but because it's proof that we don't have herd immunity.  Period.

 

 

Sorry, you will have to explain a little further because I am not sure what you mean here?

 

Yes, people who are coming down with measles and such can be contagious a day or two before they start showing symptoms.  How does that show that we don't have herd iimmunity though?

 

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Actually, if you're bringing up polio, we have everything to worry about.  There seems to be a resurgence of acute flaccid paralysis (which in the 1950's became the label for polio cases in those who had been vaccinated for polio), and nobody seems to be able to figure out where it's coming from.  That IS worrisome.

 

Even more worrisome is the refusal to look at possibilities that vaccine ingredients might play a causal role in acute flaccid paralysis, as well as other severe autoimmune conditions.

 

Polio is an enterovirus.  There are still other enteroviruses circulating which are less serious and cause things like hand-foot-and-mouth disease or the common cold rather than paralysis.  There may be another enterovirus or a mutation from one on the rise that is more similar in how it affects people to polio than others we area aware of, and yes, that new virus/mutation is a concern. 

 

Now when polio does happen we know for sure it is polio because of better diagnostic tests.  There are a few ongoing polio outbreaks, but the cases of acute flaccid paralysis that I think you are likely referring to have been tested and found not to be polio. So no, I don't think we have much to worry about with polio at this point so long as eradication efforts continue, but we do have a new virus that is possibly related to it that could be a concern. 

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we don't have herd immunity, we have the "idea" of it but not in everyone's mind

 

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Sorry, you will have to explain a little further because I am not sure what you mean here?

 

 


 

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#98 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 01:23 PM
 
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I am deeply troubled by the notion that the weaker and less effective a pharmaceutical product is, the more hardline government officials need to get in making sure that absolutely everybody uses it. It gives no incentive to drug companies to make an effective vaccine.

IMO- It's troubling that we view "other" pharmaceutical products as fallible but with vaccines we let it slide, it trumped out that "problems are caught in clinical trials", we hold our eyes like a monkey and feel they can do no wrong, no matter what. The only real "effectiveness" I see is when a patten is due to expire and something "improved" appears to the $$$$ of the company!! 


 

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#99 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 01:31 PM
 
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A plane ride away is basically the same as singing "it's a small world after all."  It can be a very small world in some ways today. 

 

 

Same as sining a song??????? Seriously? That's sick! Peace and you throw it in with disease? Lack of history hurts many! 

That's your opinion, not mine! :irked lip stick on a pig still makes it a PIG!

 

 

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Anyone from anywhere including here has the potential to carry whatever diseases they may have been exposed to with them to their destination when they travel. 

 

exactly as I said…….

yet you had no problem in asserting that others from other places can come here and spread disease :eyesroll 


 

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#100 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 01:51 PM
 
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Same as sining a song??????? Seriously? That's sick!

That's your opinion, not mine! :irked lip stick on a pig still makes it a PIG!

 

 

 

Pointing out that we all live in the same world and this world can be very small in terms of how connected we all are gets me called a pig?  How lovely. 

 

 

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exactly as I said…….

yet you had no problem in asserting that others from other places can come here and spread disease :eyesroll 

 

Yes, they can come here and spread disease.  They can come here and catch disease and take it home with them.  We can go there and catch disease and bring it home with us.  We can go there and and bring disease with us to expose those at our destination. 

 

Humans have the potential to carry whatever germs they are incubating with them wherever they go whether that is just across the street to expose people at the grocery store or halfway around the world. 

 

Soo... it sounds like it we agree on this basic concept?  Then how is it so offensive to mention this possibility for measles or polio to return to the US through this means?

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#101 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 02:52 PM
 
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So you accept the specific example of how someone could bring measles from a country that has it to a country that does not? 

 

But you reject the general idea that travel can spread diseases from one country to another?

 

I went mining through this thread to see if I ever gave you the idea that I do not believe people can get diseases from elsewhere.  There was one post, where I said something like "plane ride away is not reality" which could convey the wrong idea, so I have edited it to "plane ride away is not meaningful." which I stand by.  Without context, the phrase "plane ride away" is meaningless.  One could argue that one case of xyz could mean the disease is "a plane ride away" but let's face it: the risk is incredibly low. Vaccines are about risk analysis and without knowing which disease, how big the outbreak, and where it is, "plane ride away" is a statement that panders to fear. 

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#102 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 03:33 PM
 
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Pointing out that we all live in the same world and this world can be very small in terms of how connected we all are gets me called a pig?  How lovely. :dizzy

 

Yes, they can come here and spread disease.  They can come here and catch disease and take it home with them.  We can go there and catch disease and bring it home with us.  We can go there and and bring disease with us to expose those at our destination. 

 

Humans have the potential to carry whatever germs they are incubating with them wherever they go whether that is just across the street to expose people at the grocery store or halfway around the world. 

 

Soo... it sounds like it we agree on this basic concept?  Then how is it so offensive to mention this possibility for measles or polio to return to the US through this means? I explained it and you fail to get it.

you really are not reading what I post!

 

the song you "compared"  is one about world peace, it has NOTHING to do with disease! or spreading diseases! 

 

lipstick on a pig is an expression that is use to describe "dressing up something/someone to appear differently" - as with what you are doing comparing a "peace song" to disease! they don't go together - thus the comment on history, if you knew that you would not compare "disease a plane ride away" to PEACE! :eyesroll  I would no sooner think to co-opt a song by Pete Seeger unless it was how it was intended-errrrrrrrr revisions history! 


 

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#103 of 110 Old 03-04-2014, 03:36 PM
 
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. Vaccines are about risk analysis and without knowing which disease, how big the outbreak, and where it is, "plane ride away" is a statement that panders to fear. 

:yeah it is the dressed up way of attacking foreigners bring in diseases 

 

one could (AND maybe should) look at history and how "changing the words" for actions in the past, doesn't change the meaning behind them!!!!!!!!!!! 

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#104 of 110 Old 03-05-2014, 12:30 PM
 
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I went mining through this thread to see if I ever gave you the idea that I do not believe people can get diseases from elsewhere.  There was one post, where I said something like "plane ride away is not reality" which could convey the wrong idea, so I have edited it to "plane ride away is not meaningful." which I stand by.  Without context, the phrase "plane ride away" is meaningless.  One could argue that one case of xyz could mean the disease is "a plane ride away" but let's face it: the risk is incredibly low. Vaccines are about risk analysis and without knowing which disease, how big the outbreak, and where it is, "plane ride away" is a statement that panders to fear. 

 

 

But it was used with context. In this thread it came up with polio.   Polio is close enough to eradicated that maybe it wouldn't come back if we quit vaccinating... or maybe it would.  Measles most certainly would come back to being a disease every child got if the vaccination rate dropped low enough. 

 

It doesn't matter so much what the current outbreaks are right at this second.  The point is that as long as the disease still circulates anywhere, it has the potential (or certainty, in the case of meales) to come here. 

 

 

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you really are not reading what I post!

 

the song you "compared"  is one about world peace, it has NOTHING to do with disease! or spreading diseases! 

 

lipstick on a pig is an expression that is use to describe "dressing up something/someone to appear differently" - as with what you are doing comparing a "peace song" to disease! they don't go together - thus the comment on history, if you knew that you would not compare "disease a plane ride away" to PEACE! :eyesroll  I would no sooner think to co-opt a song by Pete Seeger unless it was how it was intended-errrrrrrrr revisions history! 

 

Obviously not directly about spreading disease. 

 

It's about peace, yes, but also about brotherhood and how interconnected we are.  We all share a moon and sun and similar hopes and fears.  What happens in other part of the world affects us.  One world, and one world which can be very small at times, sharing both the good and the bad.  

 

The original question that brought this all up was asking why we should vaccinate for polio today in 2014.  Answer - because it's a small world and the disease still exists in it. All it would take is one badly timed plane ride to bring it here. 

 

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:yeah it is the dressed up way of attacking foreigners bring in diseases 

 

one could (AND maybe should) look at history and how "changing the words" for actions in the past, doesn't change the meaning behind them!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

You acknowledge that disease could be brought here through travel or trade since there is no magic barrier at our borders..

 

But saying that we should be prepared in case or for when the diseases come is somehow attacking foreigners?

 

So we know it can happen,but we better stick our heads in the sand and pretend it can't, because to suggest maintaining our own immunity or having plans in place to deal with an outbreak is somehow xenophobic. 

 

Alrighty then. 

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Obviously not directly about spreading disease. 

It is IN NO WAY is about spreading disease, nothing to do with "directly"! 

 

 

You failed to address that you CLEARLY did not understand (and still do not if you need to use the word "directly") the song you stated and accused me of name calling - not nice on your part!

 

 

 

 

Alrighty then. 

you are free to shoot yourself and your children with all the vaccines you desire and you free to accuse foreigners of spreading disease in the manner you choose, and I am free to find your choice of words highly offensive and in appropriate

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#106 of 110 Old 03-05-2014, 01:48 PM
 
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It is IN NO WAY is about spreading disease, nothing to do with "directly"! 

 

 

You failed to address that you CLEARLY did not understand (and still do not if you need to use the word "directly") the song you stated and accused me of name calling - not nice on your part!

 

Of course they weren't thinking about disease when they wrote it. 

 

It's a song about how much we share and about how we do not live in isolation from each other.  One world, and things that happen or exist in other parts of it can affect us all. 

 

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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
 

you are free to shoot yourself and your children with all the vaccines you desire and you free to accuse foreigners of spreading disease in the manner you choose, and I am free to find your choice of words highly offensive and in appropriate

 

Sorry, I just have to clarify this one more time because your logic is so bizarre...

 

We both agree (I presume) that travel and trade and tourism and open borders are good things and that people should not be discriminated against based on nationality, race, sexuality, gender, religion, etc.

 

We both accept that I could travel to an area with measles, as many people do very single day, and possibly be exposed and bring it back with me, as HAS ALREADY HAPPENED SEVERAL DOCUMENTED TIMES IN THE PAST FEW YEARS to others, and that this can happen and has happened (SARS, anyone?) with other diseases too. 

 

But to suggest that we should consider how to protect ourselves not from the people but from the diseases, this is xenophobic and makes me deserving of being called a pig?

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#107 of 110 Old 03-05-2014, 02:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pers View Post
 

 

Sorry, I just have to clarify this one more time because your logic is so bizarre… ah, yours is!

 

We both agree (I presume) that travel and trade and tourism and open borders are good things and that people should not be discriminated against based on nationality, race, sexuality, gender, religion, etc.

 

We both accept that I could travel to an area with measles, as many people do very single day, and possibly be exposed and bring it back with me, as HAS ALREADY HAPPENED SEVERAL DOCUMENTED TIMES IN THE PAST FEW YEARS to others, and that this can happen and has happened (SARS, anyone?) with other diseases too. 

 

But to suggest that we should consider how to protect ourselves not from the people but from the diseases, this is xenophobic and makes me deserving of being called a pig?-YOU didn't bother to read my posts??? :dizzy

 

 

could you actually read what I post? :eyesroll 

 

 

this seems pointless engaging with you because CLEARLY you are not reading what I post! 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
 

 

lipstick on a pig is an expression that is use to describe "dressing up something/someone to appear differently" - as with what you are doing comparing a "peace song" to disease! they don't go together - thus the comment on history, if you knew that you would not compare "disease a plane ride away" to PEACE! :eyesroll  I would no sooner think to co-opt a song by Pete Seeger unless it was how it was intended-errrrrrrrr revisions history! 

 

 

ETA- I DID NOT call you a pig, had you read my posts you would have seen that! CLEARLY you are NOT reading and it's disrespectful how you are going on toward me! :angry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_on_a_pig


 

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#108 of 110 Old 03-07-2014, 03:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pers View Post
 

 

No, it's just recognition of how disease spreads. 

 

And hey, I'm one of those dirty, diseased foreigners importing disease :)  Seriously, I was feeling just a little run down when I left home, but apparently was coming down with a cold, which I then gave to my parent in the states, and since my father won't take a sick day unless he's at death's door and my mother and I needed to go grocery shopping and she had commitments she couldn't miss, who knows how far those nasty foreign germs spread?  I feel a little bad about it, but that's the way it goes sometimes with a cold. 

 

Cold, flu, noro virus, all sorts of common and occasionally rare diseases are spread by people travelling from place to place and in and out of the US and Canada.  There is nothing particularly dirty or diseased about foreigners, it's just that when you have people moving about you have germs moving with them. 

 

If it can happen with a cold or the flu, it can happen with measles and polio.  How is it xenophobic to recognize that when there are outbreaks of measles, someone travelling from an area where they might have been exposed could be carrying it with them just as I carried a cold across the border?

 

Most travelers are healthy.  Looking at foreigners as dirty or diseased and treating them as such  is xenophobic.  Reading news reports of large outbreaks of measles and recognizing that someone exposed their getting on a plane to the US and bring it here AND THEN SEEING IT HAPPEN SEVERAL TIMES is reality. 

 

 

That's horrific. Illegal aliens are no more a risk of these things than an American returning from vacation.  TB is worrisome but usually treatable and doesn't spread very easily (sidebar, I had to have a chest xray to prove I didn't have it when moved to Canada... should I have been offended?), and typhoid and dysentary just aren't going to be problems where there is clean water. Tapeworm is icky but treatable... and I'm pretty sure it still exists in the US? When talking about illegals, they generally mean people from Mexico, who are not a risk for polio as the immunization rate is very high and polio has been eliminate from the western hemisphere. 

 

Using this as a reason to discriminate and treat human beings like trash is despicable. But using despicable actions to justify sticking your head in the sand and pretending that measles couldn't ever be brought from an area having an outbreak to here is wrong too. 

 

That there have been 7000 cases of leprosy is a flat out lie (and leprosy is easy and cheap to treat anyway, which makes it a horrible shame that there are still people in poverty stricken areas who don't have access to treatment). That two people brought measles back to Calgary from their vacation in the Philippines recently is reality (and yes, at least one and maybe both were vaxed the vaccine isn't 100% effective, yada, yada, yada).  As are all the cases of measles in the US in the past few years which occured in people recently returned from places having outbreak or in those who they exposed.  

 

 

This was in response to something about 67 million people of unknown vax status (and some words that implied they were equivalent of unvaxed) visiting the US.  I was just pointing out that most of them were vaxed and most probably had not been exposed to a vaccine preventable disease recently (likely not polio, anyway, which i nearly wiped out an only exists in a few places which do not see a ton of travel back and forth to the US), though some apparently been exposed to measles resulting in a few outbreaks. 

 

No reason to fear the plane ride - when did I ever say we should be quacking in our boots?  We have vaccines and herd immunity to keep us safe ;) Well, not from colds and norovirus and such, but those things happen, so what can you do besides wash your hands before you eat?

 

 

What was your point about Ebola then? 

 

My point was that it makes sense to be more concerned about diseases that were problems here in the past and could easily return than a disease which is unlikely ever to pose a problem to us. 

 

 

Sure I can . My parents have told me all about it and how they and their siblings and everyone they knew growing up suffered through measles and mumps. I  myself had chickenpox - not too terrible a case, but I had it over Christmas break so didn't even get to miss school, but did miss out on lots of holiday activities with family the only year we hosted Christmas for my grandparents and cousins and such from across the country :(  

I'm not finished this thread yet, but I want to say first that I've really appreciated reading your thoughts on this, Pers. And to the bolded, that's sort of how I feel about most of the VPDs; I know many of them have the potential to cause lasting harm, but in otherwise healthy individuals with access to medication/treatment, severe reactions are rare. You guys keep talking about all these cases of measles- have their been any deaths or lasting complications? How many? (truly wondering).

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#109 of 110 Old 03-07-2014, 05:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pers View Post
 

 

Sorry, you will have to explain a little further because I am not sure what you mean here?

 

Yes, people who are coming down with measles and such can be contagious a day or two before they start showing symptoms.  How does that show that we don't have herd iimmunity though?

 

 

 

 

We don't have herd immunity because

 

1) We have millions of adults who are not "fully vaccinated" and

2) We have millions of unvaccinated visitors from other countries, many of who stay for months or longer.

 

Any of these people can be on a plane, train, bus in proximity to both vaccinated and unvaccinated citizens who might pick up germs and likewise spread them.  They could be pushing shopping carts, opening doors, pushing elevator buttons, etc...

 

The "plane ride away" is ridiculous--the germs are already here.  They don't stay in other countries waiting for Americans to take a plane ride over there. 

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#110 of 110 Old 03-07-2014, 11:18 PM
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serenbat and pers, I have restricted you both from this thread as you seem unable to follow the guidelines of the forum:

 

Quote:

Vaccinations Debate

This is a hot topics forum regarding vaccinations. Debate is welcome but polite exchange of information and opinion is a priority. Personally directed negative comments will not be tolerated. Discuss the topic and not the individual. Moderation will be to uphold a comfortable posting atmosphere for all and members who do not heed these guidelines will be removed from the discussion.

 
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