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#241 of 269 Old 04-12-2014, 06:50 AM
 
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So apparently this latest case in NYC was traced to a vaccinated, 22-yr-old movie theater employee and local resident I'm off to dig for details.
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#242 of 269 Old 04-12-2014, 07:07 AM
 
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So apparently this latest case in NYC was traced to a vaccinated, 22-yr-old movie theater employee and local resident I'm off to dig for details.

 

That's talking about a case from 2011, not the current outbreak. 

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#243 of 269 Old 04-12-2014, 07:10 AM
 
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So apparently this latest case in NYC was traced to a vaccinated, 22-yr-old movie theater employee and local resident I'm off to dig for details.

 

 

Who was FULLY vaccinated. The of the four people she gave measles to two were FULLY vaccinated and two had no 'record' of vaccination, but both had measles antibodies (exposure) which should have conferred immunity. The article lined below is dated April 11, 2014 - it is not from 2011.

 

Measles Outbreak Traced to Fully Vaccinated Patient for First Time

 

http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2014/04/measles-outbreak-traced-fully-vaccinated-patient-first-time


 

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But like Typhoid Mary, this patient turned out to be unwittingly contagious. Ultimately, she transmitted the measles to four other people, according to a recent report in Clinical Infectious Diseases that tracked symptoms in the 88 people with whom “Measles Mary” interacted while she was sick. Surprisingly, two of the secondary patients had been fully vaccinated. And although the other two had no record of receiving the vaccine, they both showed signs of previous measles exposure that should have conferred immunity.


 

 
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By analyzing her blood, the researchers found that Measles Mary mounted an IgM defense, as if she had never been vaccinated. Her blood also contained a potent arsenal of IgG antibodies, but a closer look revealed that none of these IgG antibodies were actually capable of neutralizing the measles virus. It seemed that her vaccine-given immunity had waned.

 

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#244 of 269 Old 04-12-2014, 07:35 AM
 
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@Mirzam, the article is not from 2011, the case is. 

 

"That’s why a fully vaccinated 22-year-old theater employee in New York City who developed the measles in 2011 was released without hospitalization or quarantine. But like Typhoid Mary, this patient turned out to be unwittingly contagious. Ultimately, she transmitted the measles to four other people, according to a recent report in Clinical Infectious Diseases that tracked symptoms in the 88 people with whom “Measles Mary” interacted while she was sick. " 

 

http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2014/04/measles-outbreak-traced-fully-vaccinated-patient-first-time


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#245 of 269 Old 04-12-2014, 11:31 AM
 
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OK, 2011. I care much less about when it happened than I do the science behind *how* it happened. Did anyone read the article?

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#246 of 269 Old 04-12-2014, 04:11 PM
 
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OK, 2011. I care much less about when it happened than I do the science behind *how* it happened. Did anyone read the article?

 

Yes.

Obvious questions raised.

It would seem that any vaccinated individual who still contract the disease may be spreading that disease, no matter how mild their case.

 

Vaccine failure.  UTTER vaccine failure.

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#247 of 269 Old 04-12-2014, 04:37 PM
 
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Yes.

Obvious questions raised.

It would seem that any vaccinated individual who still contract the disease may be spreading that disease, no matter how mild their case.

 

Vaccine failure.  UTTER vaccine failure.

 

YES!

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#248 of 269 Old 04-12-2014, 06:11 PM
 
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OK, 2011. I care much less about when it happened than I do the science behind *how* it happened. Did anyone read the article?

I hope Measles Mary is followed for the long term, I would love to know if she gets MS.

 

http://jem.rupress.org/content/162/3/839.abstract

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#249 of 269 Old 04-14-2014, 12:49 PM
 
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Yes.

Obvious questions raised.

It would seem that any vaccinated individual who still contract the disease may be spreading that disease, no matter how mild their case.

 

Vaccine failure.  UTTER vaccine failure.

 

 

I read the article.  This is the part that was shocking to me:

 

Quote:
  And even if a fully vaccinated person does become infected—a rare situation known as “vaccine failure”—they weren’t thought to be contagious.

 

I had no idea! I assumed that anyone who caught measles after vaccination could pass it on just as easily as someone who hadn't been vaccinated.  I never new they thought they couldn't.  And how in the world after a few decades of a second measles shot can this be the first time this has been recorded as happening?  I am certain it must have happened before, but perhaps generally when it has, there have been both unvaxed and vaxed who could have passed it on, so they were never quite sure of the line of transmission?

 

Anyway, that is what I find shocking.  How is this the first?

 

As for that it happend?  Well, we know that measles vaccine is only 98 or 99% effective, so it is completely unexpected to me (who didn't know it was thought that people with vaccine failure wouldn't pass the disease on), it is absolutely expected that this will happen from time to time. 

 

Is this immunity waning?  Or has her immunity not waned but she never had a good response to begin with?

 

If she was never immune, like I said, that is expected from time to time.  If her immunity did wane?  That is a bit more worrisome, and I should certainly hope that they are watching out for signs that immunity is starting to fail, but with one incident of it, I'm not going to start panicking quite yet. 

 

With a 1 to 2 percent failure rate, yes, occasionally some people who were fully vaxed get the disease.  However, whenever there is one of these outbreaks, it seems that most vaccinated contacts do not get it while most unvaxd contacts do - just as would be expected.  Measles is an extremely contagious disease, many people have not been immunized in several decades (and some only ever had one shot), and yet despite all the millions and millions of people walking around who never got measles, a couple hundred cases still counts as an extremely bad year for measles.   I'd say the vaccine is working quite well still, thank you!

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#250 of 269 Old 04-14-2014, 04:00 PM
 
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Science can be a doozy in that we have to be open to new hypotheses and new findings. I wouldn't necessarily accept the stated 2-dose MMR effectiveness rate as a settled matter, particularly when an area of such high vaccine coverage is seeing these outbreaks. We also don't know how many fully vaccinated people are walking around with no immunity or "waned" immunity, making data on herd immunity less trustworthy. This new case definitely flies in the face of all of the evil-anti-vaxxers-caused-outbreak rhetoric. But if I wait for Slate, Salon, and other hate campaigners to issue an apology, I'll hold my breath for too long.

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#251 of 269 Old 04-14-2014, 05:01 PM
 
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Science can be a doozy in that we have to be open to new hypotheses and new findings. I wouldn't necessarily accept the stated 2-dose MMR effectiveness rate as a settled matter, particularly when an area of such high vaccine coverage is seeing these outbreaks. We also don't know how many fully vaccinated people are walking around with no immunity or "waned" immunity, making data on herd immunity less trustworthy. This new case definitely flies in the face of all of the evil-anti-vaxxers-caused-outbreak rhetoric. But if I wait for Slate, Salon, and other hate campaigners to issue an apology, I'll hold my breath for too long.

:yeah

 

the test would be (BIG IF HERE!) if it's used, not every facility just has it in stock at the ready - IN the case of Measles Mary they do not say if this testing was done and we simply don't know the information in the other outbreaks when it is stated that vaccinated still contracted measles - I would love to know.

 

some interesting things to note - if you look into the age group and the number of participants they tested, I really question how much of the "general" population we really do know about??

http://www.trinitybiotech.com/Product%20Documents/2326060-29%20EN.pdf

 

Several diseases in addition to measles have been associated but not causally linked to measles virus. This list includes subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE),6 systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE)7 and multiple sclerosis (MS).8 Patients with SSPE, a chronic degenerative neurologic disease, have documented high titer of antibody to measles virus. However, for SLE and MS there is less pronounced but statistically significant elevation in antibody titers. The significance or role that infection by measles virus plays in these disease states is unknown at the present time. 

 

 

It's also interesting to know, how many really get tested vs how many don't. When they (the powers that be) say X% is failure, plus X % is waned immunity I really have never seen good numbers on the waned immunity (if someone has please post those) - we are talking measles here but I would also love to know hard numbers on the % of pregnant women (since they are the only ones we test) test low or no immunity for rubella. Again, you can't get it split so how many vaccine does that make if say you have 3 children and each time you test negative - 5? Fall into a high risk group and get more throughout out your life??? What is that doing to you?

 

I think it's laughable to think if you vaccinate and get it (as with measles) you could not spread it. Well, how many now really are spreading it and being fully vaccinated?

 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/lab-tools/serology.html

In addition, testing for measles is frequently requested for people with ear infections or sore throats who were given antibiotics which resulted in a rash. The presence of rheumatoid factor can also result in a false positive IgM. However, ongoing measles activity in many other countries will result in sporadic cases of measles in the United States.

 

ETA-forgot to link this as well - http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/Adults+vaccinated+against+measles+decades+aren+immune+experts/9701843/story.html

 

Short of doing expensive blood tests on everyone, there is no way of knowing who is at risk.

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#252 of 269 Old 04-30-2014, 12:57 PM
 
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My husband and I have within the last couple years, slowly come to the conclusion of not vaxing. I had been tested and found to not be immune to measles during a couple of my pregnancies, I have now had the shot 3 times and still no immunity. We are believers in taking resposibility for our own and our families health, so I understand the importance of building a strong immune system. Yet I am now in my third trimester with twins. We live a sheltered life, but with this pregnancy the visits to the OB, the Midwife, lab and ultrasounds, is very high. 

I live in central alberta canada, and there have been many cases of measles . 

Here are my questions. What health risks are there to me and the babies if I get it? (I am asking here in hopes to get facts not scare tactics)

I am able to do much of my prenatal care here. I was considering avoiding the appointments and just getting a couple more US. Will this decrease my chances of exposure?

Any advice would be great.

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#253 of 269 Old 04-30-2014, 01:00 PM
 
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Are you talking about measles or rubella? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles

 

Measles is generally considered English measles...morbilli, or rubeola.

 

Rubella is German measles.

 

 

 

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#254 of 269 Old 04-30-2014, 06:40 PM
 
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In the news they are refering to the "outbreak" as Measles. I would not be so concerned, but I have heard that there are special health concerns with pregnancy.

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#255 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 06:08 AM
 
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My husband and I have within the last couple years, slowly come to the conclusion of not vaxing. I had been tested and found to not be immune to measles during a couple of my pregnancies, I have now had the shot 3 times and still no immunity. We are believers in taking resposibility for our own and our families health, so I understand the importance of building a strong immune system. Yet I am now in my third trimester with twins. We live a sheltered life, but with this pregnancy the visits to the OB, the Midwife, lab and ultrasounds, is very high. 

I live in central alberta canada, and there have been many cases of measles . 

Here are my questions. What health risks are there to me and the babies if I get it? (I am asking here in hopes to get facts not scare tactics)

I am able to do much of my prenatal care here. I was considering avoiding the appointments and just getting a couple more US. Will this decrease my chances of exposure?

Any advice would be great.

 

Very general advice from whattoexpect.com is:

 

"Should you be concerned? Luckily, measles does not appear to cause birth defects in the baby if contracted during pregnancy, though you may possibly be at an increased risk of miscarriage or premature labor.

 

What you can do: ...If you're not immune, and are exposed to the virus while pregnant, you should talk to your practitioner about getting an immune globulin shot to try to prevent the development of measles altogether..."

 

Immune globulin has some risks of its own that you would want to look into, probably before you ever have to face that decision. I hope measles is not something that your family ever has to deal with. If your other children have never been vaccinated, they may have a better immune response than you did and having them protected would also help protect you and the babies. Obviously that's your call.

 

If you want support for not vaccinating, there is a forum for support only.

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#256 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 06:22 AM
 
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Matlori…I think you need to keep a good eye on measles rates in your area.  I have heard about a measles outbreak in the Fraser valley, but not central alberta.  

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#257 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 07:26 AM
 
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KathyMuggle - as of yesterday there were 22 confirmed cases in and around Calgary and Edmonton areas. I've been following it quite closely because my youngest is just shy of three months old and I'm not crazy about the idea of her getting measles. I've decided to keep her at home as much as possible and limit visitors; I'm not sure what else to do to try to protect her, and I hope that this little outbreak settles down quickly.

 

Matlori - I would think that you would be fairly safe going to your appointments. Every facility that I've been to in the past six months has *huge* warning posters that ask people experiencing symptoms of measles (which they then list) not to enter but to go back home and call health link. I'm hoping that individuals are paying attention to that. 

 

Also, I often wonder why it's okay to be up in arms about those who choose not to vaccinate because they might spread disease, but little is ever said about how socially irresponsible it is to be going out in public when one is sick and passing it around, regardless of vaccination status. I don't think that being fully vaccinated gives anyone a free pass to just ignore the socially courteous action of keeping your illness to yourself by staying home when you have a fever or other serious symptoms.

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#258 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 07:27 AM
 
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Matlori…I think you need to keep a good eye on measles rates in your area.  I have heard about a measles outbreak in the Fraser valley, but not central alberta.  

 

Edmonton, Calgary and central Alberta are declaring an outbreak. 

 

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton/Measles+outbreak+declared+Edmonton+Calgary+central/9788098/story.html


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#259 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 07:49 AM
 
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The declaration doesn’t change how measles cases are handled, but does allow immunization of babies who wouldn’t normally be vaccinated until they were older, said an Alberta Health Services spokeswoman.
 
In an attempt to contain the outbreak, Alberta will begin to provide special early measles vaccinations to infants aged six months to less than a year old.
 

Is this safe? Are there any safety studies, or should we rely on anecdotes of safety? 

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#260 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 08:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post
Also, I often wonder why it's okay to be up in arms about those who choose not to vaccinate because they might spread disease, but little is ever said about how socially irresponsible it is to be going out in public when one is sick and passing it around, regardless of vaccination status. I don't think that being fully vaccinated gives anyone a free pass to just ignore the socially courteous action of keeping your illness to yourself by staying home when you have a fever or other serious symptoms.

 

Most news reports I have seen indicate that a person is usually quarantined in some way when measles is diagnosed, at least in the US. You would think self-quarantine would be common sense. But, measles can be infectious before symptoms develop, so that complicates things.

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#261 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 08:33 AM
 
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Edmonton, Calgary and central Alberta are declaring an outbreak. 

 

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton/Measles+outbreak+declared+Edmonton+Calgary+central/9788098/story.html


Thanks.

 

The link said this:

 

"Six cases of measles have been diagnosed in Edmonton, nine in Calgary and seven in central Alberta."  Dated yesterday.

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#262 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 09:11 AM
 
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In the news they are refering to the "outbreak" as Measles. I would not be so concerned, but I have heard that there are special health concerns with pregnancy.

 

Not relevant to your question, but I just wanted to address something. 

 

It seems that people who put outbreak in quotes because the number of actual cases is small are confusing the term with epidemic.   Two very different things.  One case of Polio in the US would be an outbreak.  Not an epidemic, but an outbreak. 

 

The WHO defines it thusly: 

 

"A disease outbreak is the occurrence of cases of disease in excess of what would normally be expected in a defined community, geographical area or season. A single case of a communicable disease long absent from a population, or caused by an agent (e.g. bacterium or virus) not previously recognized in that community or area, or the emergence of a previously unknown disease, may also constitute an outbreak and should be reported and investigated." 

 

http://www.who.int/topics/disease_outbreaks/en/

 

Ok, carry on! 

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#263 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 10:14 AM
 
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...It seems that people who put outbreak in quotes because the number of actual cases is small are confusing the term with epidemic.   Two very different things.  One case of Polio in the US would be an outbreak.  Not an epidemic, but an outbreak.

 

Good point!

This is important to note, because with pertussis now we have areas where it is epidemic in the US-- where we are actually seeing deaths, and areas where there are outbreaks (fewer infected, so not as many serious outcomes.)

 

On a public health level, the concern over seemingly small outbreaks is more about the possibility of a transition from scattered outbreaks to epidemic status in some regions.

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#264 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 01:09 PM
 
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Is this safe? Are there any safety studies, or should we rely on anecdotes of safety? 
This. This is crazy if no studies have been done. I believe there is a case in Edmonton of a baby less than 1 years old that has contracted measles recently and this has got to be the reason for them pushing early vaccination for infants. There have been like 20 measles cases in all of Alberta in the last several years combined, and now over 20 just this year. Still a very small amount. My question is why aren't they pushing adult vaccination since immunity wears off if they are so concerned about this outbreak?
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#265 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 03:42 PM
 
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This. This is crazy if no studies have been done. I believe there is a case in Edmonton of a baby less than 1 years old that has contracted measles recently and this has got to be the reason for them pushing early vaccination for infants. There have been like 20 measles cases in all of Alberta in the last several years combined, and now over 20 just this year. Still a very small amount. My question is why aren't they pushing adult vaccination since immunity wears off if they are so concerned about this outbreak?

 

Umm, maybe because all the adults were told that they have lifetime immunity from the 2 MMRs they've already gotten? And if people start to figure out that Merck has been lying all this time about efficacy, there go profits...

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#266 of 269 Old 05-01-2014, 05:00 PM
 
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Is this safe? Are there any safety studies, or should we rely on anecdotes of safety? 

Not only that, but there was a Dr. interviewed for a news outlet that said they were going to vaccinate the infants with a less potent measles vaccine.  Has anyone heard of that?

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#267 of 269 Old 05-02-2014, 07:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 And if people start to figure out that Merck has been lying all this time about efficacy, there go profits...

Logically, this should be true. However, this may be a good reason to recommend a 3rd booster. People will believe whatever new recommendations the CDC releases. If they say 3rd booster, people will do it. The discovery that 2 shots does not produce lifelong immunity will result in the addition of a 3rd shot. That, or they might actually develop a "new and improved" MMR, and we will all be expected to embrace the change. I don't see how they can lose.

 

Isn't that just the most backward logic ever? A product fails, so your options are to take more, or buy the "new improved" one? What about option 3--avoid the product altogether? You would think this would be an acceptable option, but we are pushed from all directions into taking this vaccine, one way or another. When we question the efficacy, we are told to.....take more? Leave me alone, needle-pushers!! I don't want your product!!

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#268 of 269 Old 05-02-2014, 07:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post
 

Logically, this should be true. However, this may be a good reason to recommend a 3rd booster. People will believe whatever new recommendations the CDC releases. If they say 3rd booster, people will do it. The discovery that 2 shots does not produce lifelong immunity will result in the addition of a 3rd shot. That, or they might actually develop a "new and improved" MMR, and we will all be expected to embrace the change. I don't see how they can lose.

 

Isn't that just the most backward logic ever? A product fails, so your options are to take more, or buy the "new improved" one? What about option 3--avoid the product altogether? You would think this would be an acceptable option, but we are pushed from all directions into taking this vaccine, one way or another. When we question the efficacy, we are told to.....take more? Leave me alone, needle-pushers!! I don't want your product!!

That seems to be the logic with all the outbreaks happening...set up clinics to adminster more failing vaccines...and people happily comply with NO questions at all, with a 'well, they  know best' type of attitude and 'we better do as they say'

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#269 of 269 Old 05-09-2014, 02:17 AM
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Please talk about the vaccines and issues and questions surrounding them not in a negative light about people and their choices. This thread is now closed. If you wish to continue with discussion you may do so as a new thread in the Vaccinations forum. 

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