New study: Autism 'begins long before birth' - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 14 Old 03-27-2014, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2014-03-26-cortical-layer-disruption-and-autism.aspx

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26750786

 

"The study will be published in the March 27 online edition of the New England Journal of Medicine.  

 

“Building a baby’s brain during pregnancy involves creating a cortex that contains six layers,” Courchesne said. “We discovered focal patches of disrupted development of these cortical layers in the majority of children with autism.” Stoner created the first three-dimensional model visualizing brain locations where patches of cortex had failed to develop the normal cell-layering pattern.

The study found that in the brains of children with autism, key genetic markers were absent in brain cells in multiple layers. “This defect,” Courchesne said, “indicates that the crucial early developmental step of creating six distinct layers with specific types of brain cells – something that begins in prenatal life – had been disrupted.”

Another nail in the coffin for the theory that vaccines cause autism? 

 


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#2 of 14 Old 03-27-2014, 07:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

Another nail in the coffin for the theory that vaccines cause autism? 

 

 

It does seem that you are very anxious to drive a nail in that hypothetical coffin.  And I find that both disturbing and offensive.

 

Let's try looking at this scientifically, shall we?

 

The FDA has been saying for over a decade that, based on the body of evidence, we can neither support nor reject a causal relationship between vaccines and autism. Too many people have been far too anxious to interpret that as "we CAN reject a causal relationship."  And those same people have viewed every single study either driving a nail in that hypothetical coffin, or being the coffin, even when the details in the study do not rule out a causal relationship.

 

In the study you linked, it is not said whether the mothers of ANY of the 22 children involved were given any vaccines during pregnancy. It is also not shown that environmental exposure (including vaccines) in the first two years of life can impact any of the layers of brain cells, patches of cortex, etc.  We do not know the vaccination history of the children in the study, nor do we know their medical history, nor do we know the medical history of the mother, especially during pregnancy. It is not made clear what might be disruption of development vs. what might be destruction of something that already developed.

 

Just like people leaped to the conclusion that the Wakefield paper proved that MMR causes autism, so do you seem to be leaping to the conclusion that this study that does not conclude that vaccines cause autism is thereby proving so--especially when any mention of vaccination history is carefully avoided in the study.

If you really want to be scientific about it, keep questioning.  Look for and point out the flaws in the vaccine/autism conclusions regarding studies like these just like you look for and point them out in the studies that do indicate a link.

 

It seems to be difficult to remember that the important thing is to find out what's really going on, not to prove a hypothesis correct or incorrect (or in your words, drive a "nail in the coffin").  For all we know, vaccines may be linked in a way that is different from what either side is trying to prove right or wrong.  There is still an enormous amount we do not know about neuro development, regression, and damage, particularly in regards to autoimmune issues.
 

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#3 of 14 Old 03-27-2014, 09:12 AM
 
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In the study you linked, it is not said whether the mothers of ANY of the 22 children involved were given any vaccines during pregnancy. 

Yes, but if the designers and funders of the study do not think vaccines have anything to do with autism, that is not even to be considered.

 

Where are those autistic people, 1/37 to 1/150 in the adult population over 25, born before 1990?

 

Whatever you may think of RFK Jr., as a young person he worked in the very beginning of his Aunt Eunice's Special Olympics in the special camp she established in 1963 to the Special Olympics in 1968 and beyond. RFK Jr. said there were NEVER any autistic children in the Special Olympics until after 1999.  

 

Why?  Where were they? 

If autism just starts in the brain before birth, why is autism starting to develop in prenatal brains after 1990 so often? What happened?

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#4 of 14 Old 03-27-2014, 01:12 PM
 
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II don't think anyone is saying vaccines exclusively cause Autism - but they are absolutely a part of the puzzle that needs to be considered.   Looking at pre-natal development there are umpteen million possibilities (and combinations of) for contamination via the mother: vaccines, environmental toxins via air, water and food, household cleaners, car exhaust, vitamin deficiency, prescription meds, OTC meds....getting the drift here?  To many things out there to conclude that ONE particular item is scott free in this debate.  Unless you can isolate and eliminate that item exclusively and eliminate the end result (in this case autism) you can not conclusively state that any of these particular items are safe.  Considering may studies now show that there's a predisposition to autism, it's just needs a environmental trigger, it's not surprising that they would see differences in brain development.

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#5 of 14 Old 03-28-2014, 10:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

http://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2014-03-26-cortical-layer-disruption-and-autism.aspx

Another nail in the coffin for the theory that vaccines cause autism? 

 

The only way to put an end to speculation on what has caused the rise in autism  is to:

 

1:  admit there has been a real  rise in autism in the past 20 years.

 

2.  definitively find the  cause(s).

 

Until then people will continue to speculate on what has caused the rise in autism.  Vaccines absolutely need to be looked at properly for a variety of reason.  There was a safeminds link (which quoted Pace Law review, IIRC) that stated that 80 something families have been compensated for vaccines role in the development of autism in their children.  There are doubtlessly many, many more families who di dnot make it to court.

 

I am very much in favour of looking at other environmental reasons as well.  I think the link between pesticide and autism is fairly strong, and I am concerned by pharmaceuticals mothers may take during pregnancy.  


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#6 of 14 Old 03-28-2014, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
 

 

 

In the study you linked, it is not said whether the mothers of ANY of the 22 children involved were given any vaccines during pregnancy. It is also not shown that environmental exposure (including vaccines) in the first two years of life can impact any of the layers of brain cells, patches of cortex, etc.  We do not know the vaccination history of the children in the study, nor do we know their medical history, nor do we know the medical history of the mother, especially during pregnancy. It is not made clear what might be disruption of development vs. what might be destruction of something that already developed.

 

 

 

No it doesn't say anything about the flu vaccine during pregnancy.   Regardless, it still concludes that the rest of the vaccines do not cause autism, contrary to what many NVers claim. 

 

The scientist said the abnormalities were not ones that could have been formed after birth, so the children's vaccine history is irrelevant.  That's kind of the point. 


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#7 of 14 Old 03-28-2014, 01:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

No it doesn't say anything about the flu vaccine during pregnancy.   Regardless, it still concludes that the rest of the vaccines do not cause autism, contrary to what many NVers claim. 

 

The scientist said the abnormalities were not ones that could have been formed after birth, so the children's vaccine history is irrelevant.  That's kind of the point. 

 

Can't conclude anything.


What if the mothers of all the brains displaying the anomalies (which included one non-autistic brain, and did NOT include one autistic brain) had flu shots, Rhogam, or other mercury exposure during pregnancy?

 

We also don't know how things like mercury and aluminum, which can cross both placenta and blood-brain barrier, affect previous brain development.


Can't conclude when you don't know.

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#8 of 14 Old 04-28-2014, 05:11 AM
 
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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#9 of 14 Old 04-28-2014, 08:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by platon20 View Post
 

I'm a pediatrician.  

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by platon20 View Post
 

Why arent we studying orange juice and autism?

 

Orange juice contains high levels of organic esterol compounds that have been proven to cause brain damage.  

 

Yet we have 1000 studies of vaccines and ZERO about orange juice and autism?

 

I smell a government conspiracy to protect the multibillion dollar orange grower industry.  

 

Somebody tell me why we dont have a double blind, placebo controlled trial of orange juice and autism?

 

Follow the money people....

 

 

Some people seem to think that a medical degree entitles them to make fun of others when they disagree.  

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#10 of 14 Old 04-28-2014, 08:07 AM
 
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Why arent we studying orange juice and autism?

 

Orange juice contains high levels of organic esterol compounds that have been proven to cause brain damage.  

 

Yet we have 1000 studies of vaccines and ZERO about orange juice and autism?

 

I smell a government conspiracy to protect the multibillion dollar orange grower industry.  

 

Somebody tell me why we dont have a double blind, placebo controlled trial of orange juice and autism?

 

Follow the money people....

 

From reading your other posts here on MDC, I see your a ped.  Is it okay for parents to have different opinions than doctors?  I have to wonder if you are this condescending to parents who think differently than you IRL or you only do this via the safety of the internet?  Do you have children of your own?  I'm not flagging your post because I'm hoping you'll answer.  I value the opinion of medically trained individuals if they can treat me with the same respect I give them.

 

Best wishes,

Sus


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#11 of 14 Old 04-28-2014, 03:44 PM
 
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If newborns were given orange juice, then required to drink orange juice every couple of months, and were required to drink orange juice in order to go to school, then yes, we would need to research the safety of orange juice. No argument here!

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#12 of 14 Old 04-28-2014, 04:50 PM
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If newborns were given orange juice, then required to drink orange juice every couple of months, and were required to drink orange juice in order to go to school, then yes, we would need to research the safety of orange juice. No argument here!

 

1.  Who says that newborn exposure is the only relevant timing that matters?  Lets do a poll on here of all mothers of autistic children and find out how many of them KNEW their child was autistic as a newborn.

 

2.  Who says that autism triggers have to be continuous over months?   Do YOU seriously doubt the claims of parents who said their child became autistic after ONE shot?  How DARE you challenge their belief!

 

Orange juice does in fact contain esterol compounds which have been shown to cause brain damage in mice.  Why are all of you blowing that off?  Isnt that the same as doctors blowing off studying vaccines?  At least a few studies on vaccines and autism exist.  How many studies are there on orange juice and autism?  ZERO.  

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#13 of 14 Old 04-28-2014, 05:23 PM
 
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In your experience as a pediatrician platon20 have you had many parents say that they noticed their children regressed into autism after drinking orange juice?

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#14 of 14 Old 04-28-2014, 06:56 PM
 
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In your experience as a pediatrician platon20 have you had many parents say that they noticed their children regressed into autism after drinking orange juice?

spitdrink.gif

 

Sus

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