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#91 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 09:35 AM
 
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It's no secret that most (if not all?) of the regular pro vaccine members on this board have come to the conclusion that the overwhelming evidence on vaccines and autism has shown that there is no link, and that we are satisfied with that conclusion.  

 

I apologize if that offends some members on here, but it is an important discussion point when talking about vaccines.  

 

We shouldn't feel guilted into not discussing it because it may hurt some people's feelings.  If this particular topic is too distressing, maybe stick to the support forums? 

You can do that without being mocking or insenstive.  

 

I would turn this around:  if you can't respectfully discuss your belief that autism and vaccines are not linked, then you probably should not be discussing it on this forum.  


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#92 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 10:07 AM
 
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You can do that without being mocking or insenstive.  

 

I would turn this around:  if you can't respectfully discuss your belief that autism and vaccines are not linked, then you probably should not be discussing it on this forum.  

 

Don't have time to respond to everybody on every point, but I agree it should be respectful.   

 

From what I've seen on these forums, stating (even respectfully) that autism is not a vaccine reaction has resulted in a lot of members getting offended, asking if we think they're lying, or imagining things, etc.

 

On another note, I am stunned that members are actually disputing that people on this forum don't downplay/deny complications from diseases.  I mean honestly.  Just yesterday there was a member denying that diarrhea is a complication from measles, even though I posted multiple reputable health page sources from multiple countries listing it as one. 

 

We've all seen posters that make light of measles, or "make fun" of parents that are worried about their child getting it, arguing that they are just falling victim to "fear mongering" techniques.  Well I can assure you that if a vaccine had a death rate of 1 in 2,000 no one would scoff at parents being fearful of that vaccine. 

 

Not to mention the completely inaccurate and offensive statements that if you're child is healthy and well nourished they'll sail through measles.   I've asked for evidence showing that the 123 people (mostly children) who died in the 1989-1990 US measles epidemic were malnourished and have yet to see anything.  Or how about evidence that Roald Dahl's daughter was malnourished or unhealthy?  Or the many cases put on sites like V4V? Like Max who died from SSPE?  His parents have repeatedly said he was a completely normal, healthy rambunctious child.  

 

If those kinds of claims aren't victim blaming I don't know what is. 

 

I could go on and on......

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#93 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 10:26 AM
 
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The Dahl case was addressed. Go back and read the reply. Mr. Dahl followed the doctor's advice. No guarantees, but if he had listened to his intuition, his daughter may have lived.

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#94 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 11:27 AM
 
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Of course it's not. And I think it would be a waste of time (which could be spent searching for a real cause and/or solution for autism) to look into the organic food - autism correlation. Much like I think it's a distraction to continuously push for more studies into an already well disproven link between autism and vaccines.

I was trying to make that point with humour. I forgot humour is switched off on the MDC vaccination boards.
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From what I've seen on these forums, stating (even respectfully) that autism is not a vaccine reaction has resulted in a lot of members getting offended, asking if we think they're lying, or imagining things, etc.

 

On another note, I am stunned that members are actually disputing that people on this forum don't downplay/deny complications from diseases.  I mean honestly.  Just yesterday there was a member denying that diarrhea is a complication from measles, even though I posted multiple reputable health page sources from multiple countries listing it as one. 

 

 

I've seen on these forums lots of talk on here when an average mom talks about their child reactions and they are poo-pooed. If a news story is posted I see the same thing, the mom must be "fuzzy" mistaken, confused, etc. Is it no wonder that so MANY are deeply offend when humor is asserted into this subject?

 

"Average mom" that seems only to apply to certain PRO-vaccine blog mom's who promote vaccines, but not the average mom's who post here or are mentioned in links about their child's reactions - what a double standard!

 

I to could go on and on.......


 

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#95 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 11:36 AM
 
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I wonder if parents of children with cancer get help like this?  

Again, apologies that are not apologies.

If parents of children with cancer continued to assert in the face of clear evidence a link between cancer and vaccines I would have the same conversation yes.

I don't want to upset people. But I maintain a right to talk about the scientific consensus on issues which I see could be a trigger for some. Like teacozy I suggest you avoid the debate forum if that is the case for you.

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#96 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 11:40 AM
 
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 I do think those claims are a distraction from more useful studies of autism triggers. I am sorry if stating that opinion upsets any parents of autistic children, but I hope they understand it comes from a place of wanting to help.

 

I really don't know if it is the disconnect from not being here in the US or if it is something else. Certainly -IMO there is a big disconnect. 

 

Parents of damaged children grow up to have damaged adults dependents. Here is the US it's HARD! Real hard.

 

No one frankly does want to help those damaged. While they are small cuties they DO have services (for the most part) once they grow up - good luck getting a thing. Parents here is the US have to spend $$$$$$$$$$$$ out of pocket when a child is younger IF they are even lucky enough to have insurance cover some things. Most parents end up at some point in bankruptcy. As their child ages, they must spend money when they turn 18 to hire a lawyer, petition the court for guardianship, appoint a guardian for when they no longer can take care of their child. They also (in most states) HAVE no services past 18 (21 if you live in a really good state), continue to provide for their adult child. No one is going around knocking on doors to give out respite care for adults. As a parent you are basically alone in taking care of your child.............seeing countless times remarks like this come up really shows such a uncaring attitude-IMO

 

Many who post on here, have, know of, are have very close family members that have had damage from vaccines that now are dealing with autistic children. 

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#97 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 11:42 AM
 
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You can do that without being mocking or insenstive.  

 

I would turn this around:  if you can't respectfully discuss your belief that autism and vaccines are not linked, then you probably should not be discussing it on this forum.  

 

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 Like teacozy I suggest you avoid the debate forum if that is the case for you.

 

I don't feel we need to tell people where they can and can not post :eyesroll 


 

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#98 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 11:48 AM
 
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Don't have time to respond to everybody on every point, but I agree it should be respectful.   

 

:) 

 

From what I've seen on these forums, stating (even respectfully) that autism is not a vaccine reaction has resulted in a lot of members getting offended, asking if we think they're lying, or imagining things, etc.

 

I think you can make global and scientific comments without offending:

 

"I do not believe the bulk of evidence supports a vaccine-autism link", "this study has the following significant limitations…"

 

I do not think you can make personal comments without offending or looking like a UAV:

 

"I do not believe mothers when they say they witnessed a vaccine reaction."  It is an ad hominem attack of sorts - you think they are either lying or incompetent.  It is also gas-lighting - trying to tell someone they did not see what they believe they saw.

 

On another note, I am stunned that members are actually disputing that people on this forum don't downplay/deny complications from diseases.  I mean honestly.  Just yesterday there was a member denying that diarrhea is a complication from measles, even though I posted multiple reputable health page sources from multiple countries listing it as one. 

 

I am not going to say it never happens.  I am uneasy when people start downplaying polio, for example…I have seen  diphtheria downplayed as well, although that was not on MDC.  I am equally concerned when risks are overblown - which happens, a lot.   My earlier point was not that "posters never downplay risk" but that it had not happened on this thread.  Samaxtic was understandably calling PSM on a insensitive post, and you brought in some generalised complaint from other thread, perhaps to change the subject or perhaps because you are just annoyed.  We play tit for tat enough as it is on individual posts, we certainly do not need to go looking for stuff from other threads.  

 

 

  Or how about evidence that Roald Dahl's daughter was malnourished or unhealthy?  I doubt it.  I suspect she was an unfortunate 1/7500.    Or the many cases put on sites like V4V? Many is a subjective word.  Like Max who died from SSPE?  His parents have repeatedly said he was a completely normal, healthy rambunctious child.   SSPE is extremely rare and much more common in kids who devlope Measles under 2. 

 

If those kinds of claims aren't victim blaming I don't know what is. 

 

I don't like victim blaming.  Crap happens and it can happen to you.  OTOH, I don't like to pretend all people have the same risks either, or that there isn't a way to reduce risks. We know people in refuge camps face much higher measles mortality rates than someone sitting in my hometown.  

 

 

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#99 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 12:13 PM
 
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The Dahl case was addressed. Go back and read the reply. Mr. Dahl followed the doctor's advice. No guarantees, but if he had listened to his intuition, his daughter may have lived.

 

Even today, measles encephalitis is fatal 15% of the time, and causes permanent brain damage 25 percent of the time.  So she faced a 40% chance of either death or brain damage. 

 

Further, Roald Dahl stated that there was nothing the doctors could do for his daughter and even made the statement that if the same thing had happened to her 20 years later there ****l would have been nothing they could have done.  

 

"The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her.

That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would ****l be nothing the doctors could do to help her.http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=715

 

 

 According to this UK health site, even today the treatment is mainly just a supportive one.  There is some speculation that steroids may help, but it is unclear and likely would not have been known or available in the early 60s in the UK anyway. 

 

"Measles is associated with three different encephalitic diseases:

  • Acute demyelinating encephalitis - this occurs in 1/1,000 cases of infection. It occurs within two weeks of the rash appearing, usually with seizures often accompanied by fever, irritability, headache and changing consciousness that may progress to coma. It is believed to be a neuro-allergic process. It carries a 10-15% mortality rate and 25% of children have permanent brain damage. Treatment is supportive with no clear benefit from dexamethasone." 

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/measles-pro


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#100 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 12:22 PM
 
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You conveniently missed my point.

 

Mr. Dahl took the advice of the doctor against his and his wife's rightful feeling that something was very wrong with their daughter and needed more advice than the doctor gave.  From this, I derive the fact that parents know their children well and know when something is very wrong, as opposed to what the educated, paid professional may decide.

 

Doctors are NOT always right. They are paid consultants, nothing more. It is up to the parent to make the final decision.

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#101 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 12:29 PM
 
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Quote feature won't work when you type your response inside the quote, sorry. 

 

There is a big difference between thinking someone is wrong and thinking someone is lying.  I do not doubt posters when they say they noticed symptoms right after a vaccine.  I just don't think that vaccines are the cause of the autism symptoms.  Again, there's a big difference between saying I think you're wrong and I think you're lying. 

 

 You didn't specify that you were only talking about things said in this thread, but I'm glad you agree that disease complications are often dismissed or downplayed on this forum.  And I agree, the downplaying of Polio bothers me and since Polio personally affected a family member, I find it offensive.  I certainly think people are entitled to that opinion, though. 


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#102 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 12:32 PM
 
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Quote feature won't work when you type your response inside the quote, sorry. 

 

There is a big difference between thinking someone is wrong and thinking someone is lying.  I do not doubt posters when they say they noticed symptoms right after a vaccine.  I just don't think that vaccines are the cause of the autism symptoms.  Again, there's a big difference between saying I think you're wrong and I think you're lying. 

 

So being "fuzzy", misguided, etc. means what?            Wrong or Lying?


 

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#103 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 12:34 PM
 
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You conveniently missed my point.

 

Mr. Dahl took the advice of the doctor against his and his wife's rightful feeling that something was very wrong with their daughter and needed more advice than the doctor gave.  From this, I derive the fact that parents know their children well and know when something is very wrong, as opposed to what the educated, paid professional may decide.

 

Doctors are NOT always right. They are paid consultants, nothing more. It is up to the parent to make the final decision.

 

Except Roald Dahl wasn't worried about his daughter getting measles.  The link in the other thread stated he was only worried about his son contracting it due to his fragile health from a previous accident.  He only ordered the gamma globulin from the US for his son, not Olivia, even though she was the one exposed at school to measles.  

 

Surely if he had had parental intuition that his daughter would die of measles he would have insisted on her getting it too? 


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#104 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 12:43 PM
 
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OMG!  Did he call the doctor to the house because he was worried about his son not being ill? He said he was worried about his daughter's lack of response, her extreme malaise.

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#105 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Don't have time to respond to everybody on every point, but I agree it should be respectful.   

 

From what I've seen on these forums, stating (even respectfully) that autism is not a vaccine reaction has resulted in a lot of members getting offended, asking if we think they're lying, or imagining things, etc.

 

On another note, I am stunned that members are actually disputing that people on this forum don't downplay/deny complications from diseases.  I mean honestly.  Just yesterday there was a member denying that diarrhea is a complication from measles, even though I posted multiple reputable health page sources from multiple countries listing it as one. 

 

 

You need to read more carefully.  I disputed that diarrhea is a symptom of measles.   Big difference between symptom and complication.   Details matter.

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#106 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 01:08 PM
 
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You need to read more carefully.  I disputed that diarrhea is a symptom of measles.   Big difference between symptom and complication.   Details matter.

??

 

You're exact quote: 

 

"A $14,000, 2-day visit to the ER for "Dehydration due to diarrhea from measles" - - seriously, teacozy?

 

Funny, but according to the CDC, diarrhea doesn't seem to be a symptom of measles...In fact, it's not even listed as a rare complication." 

 

How else am I supposed to interpret this other than an attempt by you to try and dispute that this boy was hospitalized due to dehydration from measles?  


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#107 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 01:25 PM
 
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There is a big difference between thinking someone is wrong and thinking someone is lying.  I do not doubt posters when they say they noticed symptoms right after a vaccine.  I just don't think that vaccines are the cause of the autism symptoms.  Again, there's a big difference between saying I think you're wrong and I think you're lying. 

 

But who are you to think another mother (one you could not pick out of a line-up) is wrong without any evidence to back that up?

 

Let's say you took a Tylenol and had a seizure.  Let's say you believe the Tylenol caused the seizure. Would I think you were wrong?  No - I would not jump to wrong.

 

I would one:

 

1.  Believe you.  Even if I thought it was possibly a coincidence, I would think (at a minimum) that it warranted investigation and that it was not my place to pass judgment on something that happened to you.

 

2. I would completely understand if you decided to forgo Tylenol forever more, or were extremely cautious

 

3.  I would not necessarily think that Tylenol was therefore evil for the rest of the world. Judging that would involve knowing how common such Tylenol reactions are in the general public. 


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#108 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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??

 

You're exact quote: 

 

"A $14,000, 2-day visit to the ER for "Dehydration due to diarrhea from measles" - - seriously, teacozy?

 

Funny, but according to the CDC, diarrhea doesn't seem to be a symptom of measles...In fact, it's not even listed as a rare complication." 

 

How else am I supposed to interpret this other than an attempt by you to try and dispute that this boy was hospitalized due to dehydration from measles?  


You automatically assume that diarrhea occurring during a cases is measles is absolutely, without-a-shadow-of-a-doubt DUE to the measles, while at the same time telling parents whose children's autism symptoms are triggered immediately following a vaccination that it COULDN'T be from the vaccination, and MUST be a coincidence.

That's called a double standard.

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#109 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But who are you to think another mother (one you could not pick out of a line-up) is wrong without any evidence to back that up?

 

Let's say you took a Tylenol and had a seizure.  Let's say you believe the Tylenol caused the seizure. Would I think you were wrong?  No - I would not jump to wrong.

 

I would one:

 

1.  Believe you.  Even if I thought it was possibly a coincidence, I would think (at a minimum) that it warranted investigation and that it was not my place to pass judgment on something that happened to you.

 

2. I would completely understand if you decided to forgo Tylenol forever more, or were extremely cautious

 

3.  I would not necessarily think that Tylenol was therefore evil for the rest of the world. Judging that would involve knowing how common such Tylenol reactions are in the general public. 

:clap

 

Unfortunately, it seems that many people in this world (usually the most vocal ones) are neither as objective nor as scientific as you are.

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#110 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 04:33 PM
 
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If parents of children with cancer continued to assert in the face of clear evidence a link between cancer and vaccines I would have the same conversation yes.

I don't want to upset people. But I maintain a right to talk about the scientific consensus on issues which I see could be a trigger for some. Like teacozy I suggest you avoid the debate forum if that is the case for you.

I don't have a problem with debates.

 

You weren't debating.  You were by your own admission, trying to be humorous with a topic that has caused a lot of grief to some parents and it came across as flippant (at best).

 

Considering how much there is to know yet about the infant immune system and how there are sometimes things in vaccines that aren't part of the original recipe (SV 40, Porcine viruses, etc) and that there is very little that is definite about autism, it really is hubris for society to talk as if consensus means a whole lot on this issue.  But I understand others are more easily convinced.

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#111 of 115 Old 04-29-2014, 04:48 PM
 
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You can do that without being mocking or insenstive.  

 

I would turn this around:  if you can't respectfully discuss your belief that autism and vaccines are not linked, then you probably should not be discussing it on this forum.  

:clap

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#112 of 115 Old 04-30-2014, 12:12 PM
 
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But who are you to think another mother (one you could not pick out of a line-up) is wrong without any evidence to back that up?

 

 

Except there is a ton of evidence that says vaccines do. not. cause. autism.  

 

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#113 of 115 Old 04-30-2014, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

Except there is a ton of evidence that says vaccines do. not. cause. autism.  

 

 

 

 

No. There. Is. Not.

There are a ton of flawed, industry-funded studies that each conclude that, in that particular study, they see no proof that vaccines cause autism.

That is not the same thing as evidence that vaccines do not cause autism.  

 

For heaven's sake, at least one of those studies even admits in its conclusion that vaccines may be causally linked with regressive autism, but that that particular study failed to find an association.  It failed to do so because it was clearly set up in such a way that it couldn't find such an association, because both study groups were fully vaccinated and both study groups contained a similar percentage of children with symptoms of autism.  No matter how much spin you put on it, you cannot pretend that that study proves no link between vaccines and autism.

 

There are a ton of flawed, industry-funded studies that conclude that cigarettes do not cause cancer; some even "show" that cigarettes are even good for you.  Are you saying that those studies prove that cigarettes do not cause autism?

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#114 of 115 Old 04-30-2014, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

 

 

The plural of anecdote is not data

 

From dictionary.reference.com: 

da·ta

  [dey-tuhdat-uhdah-tuh]  Show IPA
noun
1.
a plural of datum.
2.
used with a plural verb individual facts, statistics, or items of information: These data represent the resultsof our analyses. Data are entered by terminal for immediate processing by the computer.
3.
used with a singular verb a body of facts; information: Additional data is available from the president of thefirm.
*****************************************************************************************************************
 
from thefreedictionary.com:

an·ec·dote  (ăn′ĭk-dōt′)
n.
1. A short account of an interesting or humorous incident.
2. pl. an·ec·dotes or an·ec·do·ta (-dō′tə) Secret or hitherto undivulged particulars of history or biography.

******************************************************************************************************************

I suppose if someone has a very strong agenda to push vaccines, they might be very unwilling to admit that most (if not all) of the vaccine safety studies rely on anecdotes.  Many of these anecdotes are in the form of checklists filled out by patients (in some cases, by illiterate patients, and/or by patients who were not given full and complete information), with the choices being predetermined by the industry selling the vaccine.  Others are in the form of reports from health care professionals.

What other kinds of anecdotes can you think of that make up "scientific data?"
 
 
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#115 of 115 Old 04-30-2014, 01:21 PM
 
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The plural of anecdote is not data

I love it every single time I see that line because as it turns out, it's wrong and it makes me laugh.

 

Quote:
 "Internet, let's get something straight. Both historically and mathematically, the plural of anecdote IS data." witter.com/johnmyleswhite/statuses/55728185102434305

 

Quote:
 
http://bit.ly/ghx7vE  What is interesting about this saying is that it seems to have morphed
into its opposite -- "Data is not the plural of anecdote" -- in some
people's minds.

In some people's minds and play books.  

Mirzam, applejuice and kathymuggle like this.
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