Informed Consent and Double Standards - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 31 Old 03-31-2014, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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NM. I need to re-work this thread a little when I have more time.

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#2 of 31 Old 03-31-2014, 01:39 PM
 
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i gave you a thumbs up on the title alone!

 

How about: NVers in certain areas are expected to watch hour long informational videos on immunisation, while those who vax are not?

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#3 of 31 Old 03-31-2014, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I got so many thumbs up that I decided to try again. innocent.gif This time, I'll try to be more succint.

In the past month, I've encountered:
1. A guy who couldn't understand why he was getting a stomach bug after his flu shot. Wasn't the flu shot supposed to prevent that?
2. A mom whose baby "just had all of his shots." When I asked her which shots he got, she shrugged and said, "I dunno. Whatever they give at 6 months." duh.gif
3. A mom whose 2-month-old had had her shots. So the mom felt safe to take her to a family gathering because "now she can't get sick."

Anecdotal? Sure. But it's enough to make me wonder if parents who fully vaccinate are getting enough information to make a fully informed decision. Why is the national obsession on correcting my own supposed "misinformation" and not on correcting theirs? Or does informing them not matter so long as they're doing as they're told with vaccines?

And yes, Kathy nailed it. If the VIS is good enough to inform parents who choose to vaccinate, why isn't it good enough for parents who don't?

Shouldn't there be informed consent for everybody? Or is there just "informed consent" available only to those who need persuaded to consent?

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#4 of 31 Old 03-31-2014, 11:46 PM
 
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The difference is obvious as far as I can see.

In refusing vaccines people are going against all medical advice. So the doctors want to make very sure they understand their choice and are not just doing it because "they read something on the internet" (not aiming that at anyone here, but that is the common perception of non vaxers).

In the UK at least we get extensive leaflets if information following vaccination. The nurses who do the vaccination have also always asked me if I understand what and why the vaccination is for. So they seem here very concerned to make sure of informed consent.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#5 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 03:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

The difference is obvious as far as I can see.

In refusing vaccines people are going against all medical advice. So the doctors want to make very sure they understand their choice and are not just doing it because "they read something on the internet" (not aiming that at anyone here, but that is the common perception of non vaxers).

In the UK at least we get extensive leaflets if information following vaccination. The nurses who do the vaccination have also always asked me if I understand what and why the vaccination is for. So they seem here very concerned to make sure of informed consent.


Yes, it's medical advice, but in most cases it's one-size-fits-all medical advice, it's not based on the circumstances and medical history of the person receiving them, so it seems a bit reckless to me.  Yes, there are many people whose circumstances, medical history and personal preferences make the full schedule an appropriate choice, but if doctors were following good healthcare practices they would be advising a lot more selective and delayed vaccinations.

 

You say you get extensive leaflets following vaccinations.  Is that correct?  Shouldn't you be getting them before the vaccinations?  Either way, it sounds like your nurses are doing a better job of informing patients (even if the timing's a bit off) than what some other members have experienced.

 

eta: and turning down vaccines isn't going against all medical advice; there's still a lot more to medicine than vaccines.

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#6 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 04:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

The difference is obvious as far as I can see.

In refusing vaccines people are going against all medical advice. So the doctors want to make very sure they understand their choice and are not just doing it because "they read something on the internet" (not aiming that at anyone here, but that is the common perception of non vaxers).

In the UK at least we get extensive leaflets if information following vaccination. The nurses who do the vaccination have also always asked me if I understand what and why the vaccination is for. So they seem here very concerned to make sure of informed consent.

But this doesn't address the issues Turquesa raised.

So many who follow the recommended schedule have no idea what vaccines can and can't do, or even what they're supposed to do.

For that matter, many of the health care professionals don't know, either.

There certainly is a double standard.
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#7 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 05:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

The difference is obvious as far as I can see.

In refusing vaccines people are going against all medical advice. So the doctors want to make very sure they understand their choice and are not just doing it because "they read something on the internet" (not aiming that at anyone here, but that is the common perception of non vaxers).
 

bolding mine.

 

I agree it is a common perception - but there is no good evidence the perception is correct.  What do we know about non-vaxxers?  We know that as a whole those who deliberately avoid vaccines tend to be well off and well educated.  I can cite the sources if you like.  This does not, to me, sound like a group who decides things  "just because they read something on the internet."  The other study I read, and here you can take or leave it because I looked for the article again and failed to find it, shows that selective/delayers have the most knowledge of vaccines, followed by vaccine refusers, and dead last were vaccine acceptors.  This  is very much in general, of course.  I do not think they should create policy or practice out of misperceptions.  

 

Here is a graphic i found online to describe  informed consent.  From WHO, no less:

 

 

The information provided and shared happens well before acceptance or rejection of participation.  I imagine, for consistency of service, that the information should be standardised.  


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#8 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 05:50 AM
 
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Then theres the friend of mine who's dh is immune compromised, yet she takes the flu shot every year, and whatever other vaccines, to 'protect him'....yet both of them think nothing of going around hundreds of people because they're musicians, and have a gig to play.  Um, if she was THAT concerned about his health, wouldn't it make sense to stay away from crowds like that?   

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#9 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 05:54 AM
 
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decided it was too OT.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#10 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 06:11 AM
 
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The vaccine information sheets are not very informational. At all. The nurses are no source of information either - they never even talked to be or at the max rolled their eyes that we did a selective delayed schedule and were annoyed that I dared to ask them to fill out the international vaccine booklet I use for us (yellow, in a bunch of languages).
The regular doctors didn't know about brands nor al content of them. I now have a ped that does. She only orders certain brands and supports parental choice. She is aware of other country's schedules and prefers them over the cdc schedule. It's a rare find!

So on topic those sheets need a huge update. I don't understand why brand name, ingredient list and full range of reactions, efficacy, how long it takes to get antibodies etc isn't on there. One could argue that's too much and too complicated bit those people that don't read them now will never read them (the groups that think the flu vaccine protects from any kind of cold/stomach flu/you name it or the ones who don't bother to know what exactly their kids are vaccinated against).
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#11 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 06:14 AM
 
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Add: doctors need to so a better job if explaining what vaccines do and don't and which vaccines their children are getting (or the adults).
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#12 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 06:35 AM
 
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So on topic those sheets need a huge update. I don't understand why brand name, ingredient list and full range of reactions, efficacy, how long it takes to get antibodies etc isn't on there. One could argue that's too much and too complicated bit those people that don't read them now will never read them (the groups that think the flu vaccine protects from any kind of cold/stomach flu/you name it or the ones who don't bother to know what exactly their kids are vaccinated against).

 

Agreed.

 

During a recent discussion on the effectiveness of the mumps portion of the vaccine, I decided to look at the VIS to see if the information jived with what I was reading.

 

I was aghast to find the information was not on the VIS - at all!  There is no mention of effectivness on the MMR VIS.  I just checked - there is no mention of effectiveness on the Dtap  VIS, either.  This is a huge issue - if patients do not know that the pertussis portion of the vaccine is only about 60% effective, then they may not seek early treatment, they may assume they cannot have pertussis and spread it to babies, etc, etc.  

 

ETA:  Dtap VIS

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/dtap.pdf


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#13 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 06:36 AM
 
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I could not find the UK's vaccine pamphlets on line, but if it is based off the NHS vaccine information, then it will be no better and provide no more 'informed consent' than the US's VIS. Here is an example of the Pediacel 5 in 1 a vaccine of choice with the NHS.

 

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/5-in-1-infant-DTaPIPVHib-vaccine.aspx

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#14 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So if a guy gets a flu shot thinking that it will stop him from getting "stomach flu," does he have enough information to make a fully informed decision? If I had consented to an epidural during childbirth after my OB told me that, and I quote, "there are no risks," would I have had enough information? It concerns me that for some doctors, (and some public health officials pushing vaccine compliance), "informed consent" may only be standard practice when somebody is considering alternatives.
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#15 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 08:31 AM
 
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Exactly. Most parents I know assume since they/ the kids are vaccinated that they cannot get those diseases. They aren't aware that efficacies vary greatly, wane. Whenever they go come down with a disease they say a) I'm on of those rare people who make no antibodies or b) my symptoms were lessened. There is no knowledge of eg mumps and pertussis being less than stellar. My biggest concern is pertussis - I have heard from too many parents oh we are vaccinated so we can't get it, not realizing that their lingering cough very well could be pertussis.
Doctors and info sheets need to improve information. People, at least the vast masses, equal vaccines with immunity, or at least 90%+ chance of immunity.
Instead resources are poured into convincing doubters to Vax on schedule or into marketing campaigns. But I doubt the sheets nor doctors will change; too much information might sway more people toward delaying, selecting or foregoing one or more vaccines, and we can't have that, can we now?!?
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#16 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 08:39 AM
 
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The difference is obvious as far as I can see.

In refusing vaccines people are going against all medical advice. So the doctors want to make very sure they understand their choice and are not just doing it because "they read something on the internet" (not aiming that at anyone here, but that is the common perception of non vaxers).

In the UK at least we get extensive leaflets if information following vaccination. The nurses who do the vaccination have also always asked me if I understand what and why the vaccination is for. So they seem here very concerned to make sure of informed consent.

You know it's really interesting when people say "read it on the internet" to dismiss non-vaxers.  Isn't the CDC on the internet?  Isn't PubMed on the internet? Or the BMJ? How about Every Child by Two?  And considering that the parents who purposely choose not to vaccinate tend to be college educated, isn't that like saying the more educated you are the more gullible/irrational/illogical you are?  And so in using that scale, what does that make doctors, lawyers and scientists? 

 

I think there is more research done into purposely choosing not to vaccinate then there is in choosing to vaccinate. On the face of it, the concept of vaccination "take this and you won't get this disease" appeals to everyone.  No one "wants" disease for their child.  More people believe and trust doctors/western medicine/authority than are skeptical.  

 

Leaflets following vaccination help make an informed consent how? Understanding that a vaccine is for preventing measles etc is quite a small part of informed consent.  


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#17 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 11:35 AM
 
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Are we worried about the information or the consent. This thread is mixing the two I think.

It's good to provide information after vaccination about signs to watch for in reactions, and what the vaccine is for. Well I think it is anyway.

What people learn from that information is then on them. "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."

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#18 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 11:50 AM
 
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Are we worried about the information or the consent. This thread is mixing the two I think.

It's good to provide information after vaccination about signs to watch for in reactions, and what the vaccine is for. Well I think it is anyway.

What people learn from that information is then on them. "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."


It's slightly better to get that information afterward than never, but knowing what the vaccine is for, and what the possible side-effects are is really something that should be discussed before the vaccine is given.  And while I agree that "you can lead a horse to water....";  it's not a justification for doctors to give inadequate information and call the consent informed; just because some people are going to ignore the information, it doesn't make it right to skip the information.  Doctors are perceived as authorities on healthcare matters, so there is an assumption that if they are accepting your consent, they have already made sure you are informed.

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Information is important to have in order to give consent.  That's what makes the consent "informed".

 

If those administering the shots had to read the package insert with the parent, the outcome may be different...for both parties!:wink


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#20 of 31 Old 04-01-2014, 04:19 PM
 
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Or does informing them not matter so long as they're doing as they're told with vaccines?

And yes, Kathy nailed it. If the VIS is good enough to inform parents who choose to vaccinate, why isn't it good enough for parents who don't?

Shouldn't there be informed consent for everybody? Or is there just "informed consent" available only to those who need persuaded to consent?

Pointing out the bolded because isn't if funny how that works?  Do as your told by the majority and no one will bother you, but go against the grain then you must be persuaded back into the light.  I could walk into a doctors office and request a vaccine that's not even on the recommended schedule - Rabies, Typhoid, TB, Yellow Fever - or any number of boosters from vaccines that ARE on the schedule and with very little effort be vaxxed up and on my way.  There's something very wrong with a system that makes it easier to obtain a drug than to deny it.

 

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Agreed.

 

During a recent discussion on the effectiveness of the mumps portion of the vaccine, I decided to look at the VIS to see if the information jived with what I was reading.

 

I was aghast to find the information was not on the VIS - at all!  There is no mention of effectivness on the MMR VIS.  I just checked - there is no mention of effectiveness on the Dtap  VIS, either.  This is a huge issue - if patients do not know that the pertussis portion of the vaccine is only about 60% effective, then they may not seek early treatment, they may assume they cannot have pertussis and spread it to babies, etc, etc.

 

ETA:  Dtap VIS

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/dtap.pdf

In my life, surrounded by nurses, you have no idea how often I've heard that once you are vaxxed you cannot contract or spread a disease.  confused.gif

 

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So if a guy gets a flu shot thinking that it will stop him from getting "stomach flu," does he have enough information to make a fully informed decision? If I had consented to an epidural during childbirth after my OB told me that, and I quote, "there are no risks," would I have had enough information? It concerns me that for some doctors, (and some public health officials pushing vaccine compliance), "informed consent" may only be standard practice when somebody is considering alternatives.

Eeeek to the OB!  But yes, no one is standing there listing off the possible side effects (well, beyond the standard swelling, redness at injection site and fever) of the vaccine before asking if they can inject you.

 

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Are we worried about the information or the consent. This thread is mixing the two I think.

It's good to provide information after vaccination about signs to watch for in reactions, and what the vaccine is for. Well I think it is anyway.

What people learn from that information is then on them. "You can take a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."

Yah, samaxtics pointed it out, information and consent sort of go hand in hand.  What about providing the information before the vaccine is given? Because while most people don't care about swelling, redness or fever, they might be alarmed to hear that Guillain-Barré, apnea, seizures and encephalopathy are all very real reactions associated with the Pentacel vaccine for example.  And why wouldn't the "what the vaccine is for" come up before vaccination?  Because vaccinating a newborn with Hep B and THEN explaining what it's for doesn't do much to help the parents in making that decision, just tells them that their promiscuous infant is now protected from a primarily sexually transmitted/needle sharing disease.  Information is good but ahead of time is way different than after the fact.

 

FWIW I never received any VIS for the vaccines my DD did received before we made the decision to stop after reactions. All I got was a speech about how deadly the diseases were and how much my child would suffer if I DIDN'T vaccinate her fully and immediately.  Again, very misleading.  No mention of immunity taking time or that one shot would not impart full immunity.  Leaving out key things like that is just as bad as flat out lying.

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#21 of 31 Old 04-02-2014, 12:01 AM
 
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I don't think it is easy to get vaccinations off the recommended schedule. Any one have experience with that in the US? In the UK it's very tricky.

Point is surely that if you follow recommendations the conversation is easy. Some people have bad experiences with information sharing. Mine have always been great including discussion before and an information sheet to take home afterwards. I've always felt very well informed. I'm sorry others don't have that experience.

Going against medical recommendations is hard. Sarcasm warning: it's almost as if the doctors believe their recommendations are the best way to proceed.......

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#22 of 31 Old 04-02-2014, 04:05 AM
 
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Going against medical recommendations is hard. Sarcasm warning: it's almost as if the doctors believe their recommendations are the best way to proceed.......

Sarcasm warning: it's almost as if the doctors believe every word of the Pharma reps and Pharma advertisements.
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#23 of 31 Old 04-02-2014, 05:14 AM
 
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I ended up in spirited debate with someone I later found out was a pharma rep. She was ripping into people who choose not to vaccinate for causing ALL of the current outbreaks of measles, etc. While we do most vaccinations, I still respect the rights of those who choose not to. Anyway, we have never done the flu shots, and none of us have ever had the flu. She tried telling me that since the doctor's offices don't test for every flu strain, we've probably had it and didn't know it. First of all, she didn't at all see the irony in pushing a vaccine that doesn't cover every strain (if they can't swab for it, it's not in the shot). Second of all, we've never had anything closely resembling the flu. Her friend chimed in to say we can't possibly be immune to the flu, because there are so many strains. I asked how then could a shot effectively prevent against all the strains. No answer.

 

I tried to point out how something simple like Benadryl can have different reactions in different people, so why does she think something like a vaccine wouldn't affect people in different ways? She just couldn't even admit it was a possibility that there were any negatives to any vaccines.

 

I was at the peds with my kids with a grandmother came in with her 12 year old granddaughter. The nurse at the front desk mentioned the guardisil shot (which I will never get and speak out against frequently), and the response from the grandmother was, "If the doctor says so, that's fine with me." I wanted to jump up and scream. She had never even heard of it or any of the controversy around it, but was fine injecting it into her grandaughter.

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#24 of 31 Old 04-02-2014, 05:49 AM
 
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Here is a question and I would love to here from those who think non-vaxxers should have to watch an hour long informational video:
 
If those who do not intend to vaccinate need to listen to an hour long informational video, should those who intend to vaccinate also need to listen to an hour long informational video?

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#25 of 31 Old 04-02-2014, 07:04 AM
 
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I don't think it is easy to get vaccinations off the recommended schedule. Any one have experience with that in the US? In the UK it's very tricky.
.

As an FYI:

 

Canada:  Most vaccines you can get for free any time.  I am pretty sure my doctor would do a happy dance and whip out a needle really quickly if I consented to Dtap, MMR, Polio, etc.

 

There are a few vaccines that are only funded during specific periods:  Hep B, HPV, pneumococcal, meningococcal, shingles.

 

I don't think it would be difficult to get a HPV vaccine for a 17 yr old, but I would have to pay for  it as it is only funded for 13-15 yr olds (for example, not sure of exact time period)


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#26 of 31 Old 04-02-2014, 07:14 AM
 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10555717

 

The above study (1999) showed that doctors spent a median of 1.9 minutes on vaccination discussion, and that only 5% of parents read vaccine materials.  Ouch.

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#27 of 31 Old 04-02-2014, 07:15 AM
 
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A doctor I used to see did a lot of travel vaccinations, and from things I overheard while sitting in the waiting room I got the impression that if he had it in stock, and the patient was willing to pay, he wasn't likely to argue against vaccinations that weren't on the local schedule. 

 

eta: I was responding to prosciencemum's assertion:

Quote:
 I don't think it is easy to get vaccinations off the recommended schedule. Any one have experience with that in the US? In the UK it's very tricky.

I'm in Canada

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#28 of 31 Old 04-02-2014, 10:00 AM
 
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Our neighbors traveled to Haiti 2 summers ago to visit his family with their at the time not quite 1yo and it was no biggie for them to get loaded up with vaxxes for whatever was circulating there (they don't remotely question vaccines either) and they didn't have to show proof or sign over their child to get things that were off the schedule, just make an apt with the local heath district and off they went.  They may have had to pay out of pocket but all she talked about was how many they needed to get and the timing of it before the trip. She's also had Guillain-Barré not once, but twice in her life following vaccinations (one was a flu vax and another she had in her teenage years) and still no one has ever brought up vaccination as an issue.  Last time around she was hospitalized for almost a month then out of work partially paralyzed for over 6 months.  I see that as a MAJOR red flag in the issue of informed consent because clearly she's not aware of the risks from her own reading and it's quite obvious no one is giving her that information during these visits that Guillain-Barre is an adverse vaccine reaction and that it is a contraindication for most if not all vaccinations.  I know because I've tested the waters a bit and while she is in no way ready to stop or delay vaxxing, she certainly wasn't aware of the connection when I mentioned it in conversation after her last episode.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

I am pretty sure my doctor would do a happy dance and whip out a needle really quickly if I consented to Dtap, MMR, Polio, etc.

I don't have an MD for a primary anymore, just the ND for now, but I'm sure my former primary and former OBGYN would have LOVED for me to consent to vaxxing, especially the latter, she was very "vax happy" over the HPV vax and I was almost too old to even get it when it came out yet she still pushed it!  Our former pediatrician would not only have done a happy dance but I'm sure she would have come in on a day off just to do them herself considering she offered up a "catch up" at DD's one year apt - we stopped after 4mos and she wanted to do ALL of the shots in that appointment (worried she wouldn't see us again for a year and wouldn't get the opportunity to space them) thus it would have consisted of:

 

Pentacel (DTaP, Hib, IPV) (5 viruses)

Pneumococcal (the Prevnar 13, so 13 strains)

Flu vax (3 strains)

MMR that she offered to start up early rather than wait til 15mos (3 viruses)

Varicella (although she may have carried the combo MMRV)

Hep B

Hep A

.....at a minimum with all combos that would have been SIX injections in one visit at 13mos old.....her first two rounds resulted in severe encephalopathic crying (screaming really) putting her in a contraindicated state for further DTaP, I'm damn near positive she would have seized or died with this combo.  Yet it was offered not because it was best for her, not because I was fully informed of all vaccine risks, and not even because my child was at any sort of real risk for contracting these diseases in the immediate future....no, the offer was on the table because they wanted to get her vaxxed while the opportunity presented itself.  And that is most certainly not a viable reason to put someone at risk and does not excuse them (medical professionals) from the responsibility they have to present all sides of the issue.  Lay the cards out on the table and let people decide for themselves. 

 

We obviously declined and sought other healthcare for our child where she is treated as an individual, not a science project.

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#29 of 31 Old 04-02-2014, 02:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post


Going against medical recommendations is hard. Sarcasm warning: it's almost as if the doctors believe their recommendations are the best way to proceed.......

Doctors also have recommended Vioxx, DES, and here in Canada Thalidomide, thinking it was the best advice because that's what they were told by their medical association/drug reps.

(I often wonder how doctors would feel if they knew about the emails from Merck saying "they would seek them out and destroy them where they live" for speaking out against Vioxx. )

 

My husband had crippling arthritis and was walking with a cane.  He had been prescribed two drugs, one which was methotrexate by injection, by a rheumatologist in another city.

My husband got worse and worse.  Our GP sent him to see THE expert in the field who is the professor of rheumatology in our city.  His solution without spending very long with my husband was to increase the injections of methotrexate.  This drug was killing my husband.  Making his quick exit, I asked him what role food played in arthritis.  He said "nothing, eat what you want".  I called BS and when we got home we changed our diet to organic, cut out any processed foods, and replaced the fake foods such as canola and margarine with coconut oil and butter.

My husband has been drug free for four years and is back in martial arts.

 

Questioning and going against medical recommendations became a lot easier after our child's vaccine injuries.  If there is a silver lining, we credit our experience with our son for saving his dad's life.


"Practically every food you buy in a store for consumption by humans is genetically modified food"
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Astrophysicist/GMO defender
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#30 of 31 Old 04-02-2014, 04:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
  He said "nothing, eat what you want".  I called BS and when we got home we changed our diet to organic, cut out any processed foods, and replaced the fake foods such as canola and margarine with coconut oil and butter.

My husband has been drug free for four years and is back in martial arts.

 

Questioning and going against medical recommendations became a lot easier after our child's vaccine injuries.  If there is a silver lining, we credit our experience with our son for saving his dad's life.

Good for you and your husband!!!! This is probably the issue that infuriates me the most about standard medical care. Doctors, even specialists, do not know about the important relationship between nutrition and illness, or nutrition for health. I have several family members who were failed by the medical system and the standard care. I know these specialists did not even mention food/nutrition, because I asked my family members specifically about it! I won't go into details here, but count me down for 3 "mainstream medicine FAIL" anecdotes.

 

"Nothing, eat what you want"  must be one of the single most ignorant, INCORRECT comments I've ever heard. Sadly, it is the norm.

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 "Medical propaganda ops are, in the long run, the most dangerous. They appear to be neutral. They wave no political banners. They claim to be science. For these reasons, they can accomplish the goals of overt fascism without arousing suspicion.” — Jon Rappoport
 
 
 
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