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#1 of 14 Old 04-07-2014, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was never vaccinated as a child, and my father had an exemption for religious reasons. I was able to attend public schools and had a normal childhood, now I have a daughter and I have been struggling to decide what is "really" best for her. My father is all about being healthy, he's a vegetarian, he only eats organic food, he hates taking any kind of medicine, and he won't eat artificial anything! He's against any chemicals basically, and I thank him for getting me off to a healthy start in life, however I choose to live my life slightly different, although this is a topic I Cannot get past, me and her father have been back and fourth on the idea, and just can't come to a decision, because of this she is behind on her shots, (which is fine with us for now) but we need to come to a decision at some point, and I've been looking around for some ligitimet information on vaccines, do they really even work? How do we know they work, and we aren't just subjecting our children to something potentially harmful, on purpose? I'm hoping someone can give me some links to ligitimet sites where I can do some more research before making this decision. So many people think it's wrong not to get your children vaccinated, but my intuition tells me it's dangerous, do we even know what exactly we have created here? Has it been around long enough to ensure that in the future it won't be recalled, like cigarettes for example. By vaccinating we as parents are taking a chance injecting something foren into our children, when we have no idea what is possible by doing so. I'd really appreciate any valid information so I can then make my decision based on facts and hopefully feel better about my choice. Thanks
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#2 of 14 Old 04-08-2014, 09:35 AM
 
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Welcome to MDC.  How old is your daughter?

 

I would start with the CDC Pink Book, appendixes included.

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#3 of 14 Old 04-08-2014, 11:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Caroline 14 View Post

I was never vaccinated as a child, and my father had an exemption for religious reasons. I was able to attend public schools and had a normal childhood, now I have a daughter and I have been struggling to decide what is "really" best for her. My father is all about being healthy, he's a vegetarian, he only eats organic food, he hates taking any kind of medicine, and he won't eat artificial anything! He's against any chemicals basically, and I thank him for getting me off to a healthy start in life, however I choose to live my life slightly different, although this is a topic I Cannot get past, me and her father have been back and fourth on the idea, and just can't come to a decision, because of this she is behind on her shots, (which is fine with us for now) but we need to come to a decision at some point, and I've been looking around for some ligitimet information on vaccines, do they really even work? How do we know they work, and we aren't just subjecting our children to something potentially harmful, on purpose? I'm hoping someone can give me some links to ligitimet sites where I can do some more research before making this decision. So many people think it's wrong not to get your children vaccinated, but my intuition tells me it's dangerous, do we even know what exactly we have created here? Has it been around long enough to ensure that in the future it won't be recalled, like cigarettes for example. By vaccinating we as parents are taking a chance injecting something foren into our children, when we have no idea what is possible by doing so. I'd really appreciate any valid information so I can then make my decision based on facts and hopefully feel better about my choice. Thanks

 

I'm quite shocked none of the PRO-vaccine supporters have posted yet to help you, sure they will.

 

A few of your questions - as far as how they work, well if you find that information please post it for the rest of us, I personally would love to know myself. From what I do know (WHO, CDC, etc) We ALL know vaccines are not 100% effectives and it's  known all carry reactions. I have no way to tell if your DD will or will not have a reaction, again I would love to know the answer as to who does and does not have a reaction. There are clear guidelines as to who should not be vaccinated and that information can be found easily at the CDC site. Remember there is data that show they are not 100% (meaning someone's child is in that group & someone's child also is in that group that reacted), it's nice to think abstract but there are REAL people who have and live with REAL reactions, many life long and debilitating too (those children also are precious to their parents).

 

Even if you do vaccinate you have not 100% chance they will work, since effectiveness varies (greatly too in some vaccines) unless you titer you DD you will not know if your child is one of those who never gets immunity. Someone DOES fall into that group. 

 

With that is currently being offered within the US you can simply compare that to other countries and see not everyone does the same vaccines, not every country does them at the same age either.

 

With "science" just from reading threads on here you will see even those who support vaccines (PRO) and feel those who do not vaccine are endangering others don't buy into all the "science" anyway - MANY delay, or selectively vaccinate yet always use the caveat of "science". 

 

IMO if you believe "in the science of vaccines", it's an all or nothing to me. Either you "trust" those in the know (WHO, CDC, APA, etc) or you don't. Wishy-washy doesn't count as "science" to me. So if you believe that vaccines do all they say they do, IMO you should do them when they want you do, do the exact number of boosters, etc - go with the program in other words.

 

There are countless threads to read over just on here (and tons of other places too) You will find MANY just simply do not follow the recommendations or the correct time frame. Example, the flu vaccine, that can take weeks to acquire immunity, so getting it in Jan or Feb might not be a hot idea. Thinking your infant is "protected" after their first shots, again, far from accurate by any stretch of the imagination, the science even says other wise. Take Gardasil, it's recommended for a certain age to start, many do give it to their daughters and sons, some don't, yet those are many of the same people that have no problem with the fact it was never tested to know the effects on reproduction, just line up and give it. All types of people and most will still say they are for the science of vaccines.

 

With knowing, well, frankly we don't really know all that much. We do know if you are pregnant you will most likely be tested to see if you do have immunity towards Rubella, but we don't know how many never pregnant or males still have immunity despite being vaccinated. That really gets to the heart of the matter for me - there is a lot we don't know.

 

We don't know what the current load of vaccines will do to these children 25+ years from now (who really cares anyway?) - we don't have data to show the long term effects. The vaccines given today are not the same that were given 20 years ago either. 

Some times parents feel their children will be happy with the decisions they make regarding their healthy but time will tell. IMO I can't see a whole generation of lemming with this current crop of children and time will tell how they feel about what they were given - the whole vaccine landscape may be quite different 25+ years from now and there might be resentment over what the parents did and not do regarding vaccines. Remember you can always vaccines, you just can't remove them from your system.

 

While no one can tell you how your relationship with a father who clearly has a different POV, will turn out if you choose to vaccinate, you could look at the opposite there are tons of threads on the INV side that show how hostile family member can be towards the unvaccinated germ-bombs.

And IF you do vaccinate how will you view your father? Really what we are told over and over by the PROvaccine side is those children not vaccinated are causing so much to "come back" , yet reality the majority US population is adults, 18+, and that includes UNDER and UN-vaccinated, such as yourself. Somehow the PRO side seems to think it's constructive to say children, children, children all the time ad nauseam but adults are the ones we really have no clue about, or the money to find out. If you buy into the science, will you still want to be around a person (your father) who can spread diseases?

 

If you vaccinate, you would really need to titer to see if the vaccine worked, you would need to do so often because the "science" knowns  immunity vanes. I have "good" insurance and even it doesn't not pay for me as an adults without cause to titer, a un-medical related doctor's apt to get a script to titer, to find out, go back for a vaccine not considered "warranted" is simply not covered by my insurance and out of pocket is out of the question - not just for me, for MANY.

 

And I didn't see, but what about you? I'm assuming you will also fully vaccinate yourself FIRST? Even if you had a reaction that doesn't mean anything as there is no way to know if your child would or not, even reactions that are sever in siblings don't count as a reason to not vaccinate that others.

 

I'm in the ANTI-vaccine camp - the one that feels what you put in can never be taken out and statically speaking your child can die from a number of other things that vaccines do not cover.

 

good luck and :w 

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#4 of 14 Old 04-08-2014, 11:20 AM
 
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Hey Caroline - welcome. smile.gif

I live in the UK . I like the NHS (UK National Health Service: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/vaccination-schedule-age-checklist.aspx) website which I think are accessible and try to explain what vaccines are for and why mainstream medicine believes so strongly in them. It doesn't go into such gory detail as the CDC pink book, but it might be a good starting point.

The UK schedule is different to in the US so if you follow it to the letter you'd be considered a selective vaccinators in the US. If that's where you live. smile.gif

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#5 of 14 Old 04-08-2014, 11:50 AM
 
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I just have time right now for a quick reply, but two things stood out to me in your question. The first was when you said you had to come to a decision at some point. Actually, you don't. There is no deadline. You can put off the decision until your daughter is 18, and then she can thank you for giving her a healthy start in life, just as you're grateful to your father. Another thing that stood out to me is that you said your intuition tells you vaccines are dangerous for your daughter. That is a very important and powerful thing. Take that seriously.

 

I do think it's great that your father is so careful about what he eats, but when you wrote that you live your life slightly differently, my guess is that you are not as strict with the dietary stuff. And that's fine. But it doesn't mean that you shouldn't skip vaccines for your daughter, like he did with you. Skipping vaccines will make it easier to live a more carefree life, including dietary choices. Vaccine injuries manifest in many ways, including food allergies and intolerances.

 

p.s. It's also really important to avoid Tylenol. I believe that skipping vaccines, and not giving Tylenol, are two of the best and easiest things you can do to keep your daughter healthy.

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#6 of 14 Old 04-08-2014, 11:56 AM
 
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I just have time right now for a quick reply, but two things stood out to me in your question. The first was when you said you had to come to a decision at some point. Actually, you don't. There is no deadline. You can put off the decision until your daughter is 18, and then she can thank you for giving her a healthy start in life, just as you're grateful to your father.

Goodness, yes, it is her body…and unless a disease is an imminent threat, vaccination should be her call when she is of age.  

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#7 of 14 Old 04-08-2014, 12:32 PM
 
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Nobody can tell you what to do with your own child. I think that it is impossible (or at least very very very difficult) to get 100% neutral advice on vaccines. You have to look at what both sides present and then decide where you fall on the spectrum. 
The CDC and WHO organizations are good places to start. Read the inserts that are given with the vaccinations. I also checked out the I'm not vaccinating forum. They have links to studies and pages. 
I think it is also important to gain a working knowledge of the immune system and how it mounts a response. I went to my textbooks to re-learn it, but I'm sure they're online now. 
One thing that truly helped my husband and I was understanding HOW to read studies and inserts.  http://www.bmj.com/about-bmj/resources-readers/publications/how-read-paper. Familiarize yourself with fallacies so you can weed them out. 
Getting yourself a good medical dictionary would also be a good idea when checking out studies, papers and pamphlets.
At the end of the day, you and your partner need to make the best decision for YOU and be happy with it. You love your little girl, and are doing what you can to be informed. That's the first step. 
 

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#8 of 14 Old 04-08-2014, 12:35 PM
 
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Just to push back a bit, a choice to delay indefinitely is not a non-choice. While I'm happy to admit the risks of catching a VPD these days is very low, not vaccinating does increase that risk.
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#9 of 14 Old 04-09-2014, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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thank you everyone for your responses. To be quite honest I think I would be more comfortable not getting her vaccinated, I know I am perfectly fine and when I read one on the comments someone left they had stated that if I were to vaccinate my daughter, then I'd probably first get myself fully vaccinated, I'm very glad they said that, because I never looked at it from that point of view, I would not get vaccinated I don't want to be, I never have been and I don't see any reason why I should now. I'm actually very glad I never was, so why would I get my daughter? Well my fiance was vaccinated, while he entertains both sides of the situation, his parents are quite stunned that we have not yet vaccinated her, they do not understand where I'm coming from with not getting them, and it's very hArd to get them to understand it. I believe they feel as if I'm neglecting her in a way, but in reality I'm doing the opposite. They are about the exact opposite as my parents, who are health freaks, etc. Although my parents were vaccinated and had done much research and studying to make the educated decision not to get me and my brother vaccinated. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle between my parents lifestyle and my in laws, but it's hard to get someone who believes everything a Dr. Says is the best thing, to understand my thought process. I'm also worried about her not getting into school if I choose not to vaccinate, my father was able to get me into public school, but that is because of religious purposes, and he was able to get a waiver for that, if I do not follow that religion, how will I get her into school, which I believe is VERY important. She needs to be in a learning environment with other children her age and go through the experiences every kid does. I don't want her to be excluded from this, it will potentially mold her entire life.
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#10 of 14 Old 04-09-2014, 07:03 AM
 
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There is a lot to read here in the different sections.

I'm sure you will find peace in your legal choice-good luck on your journey.

 

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#11 of 14 Old 04-09-2014, 07:26 AM
 
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Check out the NVIC exemption map below for state info on school requirements.  Most people in the USA can choose to not vaccinate and legally send their children to school.  If you are not in the USA, post your country of origin and someone might be able to help.
 
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#12 of 14 Old 04-13-2014, 07:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Caroline 14 View Post

[...] I've been looking around for some ligitimet information on vaccines, do they really even work? How do we know they work, and we aren't just subjecting our children to something potentially harmful, on purpose? I'm hoping someone can give me some links to ligitimet sites where I can do some more research before making this decision.

As I understand it (not an expert, just going by what I know of vaccine studies), first vaccines are tested on individuals to see whether they produce an antibody response. If they do, then that's at least biological evidence that they're doing something. Then they test them in a large group who are followed up for a few years to look for rates of the illness, to see whether the rates in the vaccinated group are significantly lower than expected (I believe there would normally be a comparable control group at this stage who don't get the vaccine, for comparison purposes). Finally, once the vaccine is part of the official schedule it's possible to track the incidence of the disease, plus incidence of complications/mortality from the disease.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/immunisation-against-infectious-disease-the-green-book is a useful site; it's the summary of UK vaccination advice, which is aimed at professionals and is therefore probably not something you'd want to plough through in its entirety, but does have some really good graphs showing the reductions in disease rates after vaccination was introduced. Check out the diphtheria graph, showing the rates varying between 40 000 and 70 000 a year before immunisation and then plummeting almost to zero immediately after introduction of the vaccine. Or the graph showing rates of congenital rubella syndrome. Having seen those figures, I'm quite happy that vaccines work; I honestly don't see how there's any doubt left, because the drops in disease incidence after a vaccine is introduced are so consistent it seems completely conclusive to me.

 

 

Quote:
 So many people think it's wrong not to get your children vaccinated, but my intuition tells me it's dangerous, do we even know what exactly we have created here? Has it been around long enough to ensure that in the future it won't be recalled, like cigarettes for example.

I know this is a concern whenever a new vaccine comes out (and, in fact, vaccines, like medicines, occasionally do get recalled due to rare side-effects showing up in the post-marketing phase). However, most of the vaccines on the childhood schedule have been in widespread use for decades, so we have a great deal of information on them.

 

Quote:
By vaccinating we as parents are taking a chance injecting something foren into our children, when we have no idea what is possible by doing so. I'd really appreciate any valid information so I can then make my decision based on facts and hopefully feel better about my choice. Thanks

I do get that that feels pretty scary. But I also think that what tends to get overlooked here is that the reason why we started taking that chance. The reason why vaccinations were introduced was because there were some truly horrible, dangerous diseases out there. They're much rarer since we started vaccinating, but they're still out there ready to come back if we stop – the measles and mumps outbreaks with low vaccination rates are a reminder of that. If we don't introduce these infections into our children's bodies in a controlled and low-risk fashion that they can easily fight off, nature is liable to introduce them in a much less controlled way. And the outcomes of that can be very bad indeed.

 

You were comparing vaccines with cigarettes, but there are a couple of really important differences here. One is that cigarettes weren't studied for years before being released to the public on a widespread scale and then monitored thereafter, the way vaccines are. The other is that there is no downside at all to not smoking. Even if it had eventually turned out that cigarettes didn't have health consequences and that taking a 'let's play it safe and avoid these things' approach was completely unnecessary, the people of pre-1950s eras would at least be none the worse off for doing so. But the consequences of not vaccinating are that your child is at much greater risk of getting the disease in question and/or passing it on to someone else who may be vulnerable.

 

Hope that helps. Happy to answer any more questions if I can.

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#13 of 14 Old 04-13-2014, 12:06 PM
 
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You can check out the package inserts to see info on how long the subjects of studies are followed.

 

For a real eye opener you can check out clinical trials dot gov, key in vaccines, to see some current and completed vaccine trials.

Most of the subjects aren't followed for very long, certainly not the years as claimed in the post above.

The inclusion and exclusion criteria for who can be a trial participant is very interesting too.

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#14 of 14 Old 04-13-2014, 02:17 PM
 
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I know this is a concern whenever a new vaccine comes out (and, in fact, vaccines, like medicines, occasionally do get recalled due to rare side-effects showing up in the post-marketing phase). However, most of the vaccines on the childhood schedule have been in widespread use for decades, so we have a great deal of information on them.

 

 

actually NO,

 

We are not using the "same" vaccine, as with flu vaccine, others too have be reformulated over time and we do not have have a great deal of information on what currently is being used and we do not have long term data on what the combination of the current schedule is either. We have never in past decades scheduled and administrated this number of different vaccines and boosters to one generation.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Good Enough Mum View Post
 

They're much rarer since we started vaccinating, but they're still out there ready to come back if we stop – the measles and mumps outbreaks with low vaccination rates are a reminder of that. 

 

the current measles thread is a must read IMO! Since even vaccinating for measles has been shown to not prevent you from getting or spreading them - lots to consider. 

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