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#1 of 48 Old 04-08-2014, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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This is food for thought:

 

http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/07/dear-dr-novella.html

 

I think that is a model that I would aspire to if there was good evidence that my child had a vaccine reaction.   The reactions should be studied and better understood, particularly the ones that the vaccine court concede.

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#2 of 48 Old 04-08-2014, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think he is defending the moms a bit too much.  I agree with his point is that scientists should look for a grain of truth in the hysteria.  On the other hand, the hysteria is arguably as damaging to the cause as the dismissive skeptics.  The cause being a better understanding of the vaccine reactions leading to better protection for children.

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#3 of 48 Old 04-08-2014, 05:57 AM
 
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Thank you for posting this.


Particularly interesting points:
 

"The only thing unique about my little girl’s case is the level of medical documentation—5 to 20% of patients with ASDs have mitochondrial dysfunction.  Many other cases where mitochondrial testing is WNL is because "we never looked" not because the testing would be "within normal limits."  Most mitochondrial experts will tell you that the dots of autism and mitochondrial disorders are strongly connected."

 

and

 

"I will not speculate on the obvious question—why concede?   Hannah’s case was positioned to set precedent as a test case in the Omnibus Autism Proceedings for potentially thousands of other cases."

 

So the government deliberately removed from the Omnibus Autism Proceedings a potentially precedent-setting test case that just happened to have far more medical documentation than any other case, settled it--and sealed it.

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#4 of 48 Old 04-08-2014, 10:39 AM
 
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So the government deliberately removed from the Omnibus Autism Proceedings a potentially precedent-setting test case that just happened to have far more medical documentation than any other case, settled it--and sealed it.

 

Exactly.

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#5 of 48 Old 04-08-2014, 10:59 AM
 
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Taxi: help me understand your pov. Does that statement mean you believe there's a government conspiracy to hide a link?

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#6 of 48 Old 04-08-2014, 12:41 PM
 
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Taxi: help me understand your pov. Does that statement mean you believe there's a government conspiracy to hide a link?

 

I think the government is less than truthful on many things. I  do hope you are not planning on using that fact to try to paint me as a crazy, tinfoil-hat-wearing, conspiracy-theorist lunatic.

Peggy Noonan:  "A Catastrophe Like No Other"

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304441304579479700454846082

"The leaders of our government have not felt, throughout the process, that they had any responsibility to be honest and forthcoming about the major aspects of the program, from its exact nature to its exact cost. We are not being told the cost of anything—all those ads, all the consultants and computer work, even the cost of the essential program itself."

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/13_things_the_government_is_trying_to_hide_from_you/

 

The National Security head was caught not telling the truth to Congress about the surveillance of millions of U.S. citizens.

"The director of National Intelligence, James Clapper, told the US Senate on March 12, 2013 that the NSA did not wittingly collect information on millions of Americans. After the Snowden Guardian disclosures, Clapper admitted to NBC that what he said to Congress was the “least untruthful” reply he could think of. The agency no longer denies that it collects the emails of American citizens. In a recent white paper, the NSA now admits it does “collect telephony metadata in bulk,” but does not unconstitutionally “target” American citizens."

The Senate oversight committee refused to allow a dissenting senator to publicly discuss his objections to surveillance.

"When Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR) tried to amend the surveillance laws to require court orders before the government could gather communications of American citizens and to disclose how many Americans have had their communications gathered, he lost in a secret 2012 hearing of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. He was also prohibited from publicly registering or explaining his opposition for weeks."

**************************************************************

There are many things our government does right.  And many things that are done wrong.  I'm really not interested in a discussion where someone tries to discredit my opinion because I dare to criticize the things I believe our government does wrong.

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#7 of 48 Old 04-08-2014, 04:20 PM
 
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 I'm really not interested in a discussion where someone tries to discredit my opinion because I dare to criticize the things I believe our government does wrong.

Love this! If people did not question the government throughout history, what would life would be like today? I think it is wise to question. 

 

Quote:
 So the government deliberately removed from the Omnibus Autism Proceedings a potentially precedent-setting test case that just happened to have far more medical documentation than any other case, settled it--and sealed it.

Doesn't this pique your interest? It surely piques mine! 


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#8 of 48 Old 04-09-2014, 09:29 AM
 
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This is really interesting. I am a huge Peggy Noonan fan. I only disagree with one aspect of what a previous poster said. I don't think our government does much of anything right. There is so much waste and ineffectivenss in every single aspect of what they do, it really is mind boggling. If there were any business run like our government is run, it would be out of business in a month or less. I took my son to get a Social Security card at a local office and was amazed at so many things. First, we were treated like idiots- worse than children. I HAD to sit down; I was not allowed to stand for any reason. (I had been waiting for 90 minutes and needed to stretch my legs and was promptly chastised). They were only open from 9-12 that day, yet every employee took a 30 minute break. Seriously. I am a teacher and work for 4.5 hours before I even get to go to the bathroom.

 

I do think they hide things from us. The people elected to represent us act like they are experts on things they know nothing about. It doesn't even matter which politcal party anymore because they are the same. I believe they want all the divisiveness that exists for their own purposes. Goodness knows they all go have drinks together after yelling for the cameras.

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#9 of 48 Old 04-09-2014, 10:29 AM
 
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Taxi: help me understand your pov. Does that statement mean you believe there's a government conspiracy to hide a link?

Let's try re-phrasing the question prosciencemum.  

 

"Does that statement mean you believe there's a government policy to seal documents when they do not want broad public access to the information contained therein?"

 

And the answer is of course "yes".  

 

Now what I want to know: Is there a conspiracy to use the word conspiracy when debating people of opposing ideas? :wink

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#10 of 48 Old 04-09-2014, 02:45 PM
 
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I am just interested in understanding peoples points of view.

Interesting thing is I think on most issues we'd agree quite well. I think governments are too run by corporations with money - the US seems an extreme if this, but lots of countries suffer for it.

I just don't think vaccines make a lot of money for anyone, and they are subject to way too much oversight to be part of this. I agree rare reactions occur, but they're very rare, and I think the good which is done by vaccine saving millions of lives far outweighs that.
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#11 of 48 Old 04-09-2014, 03:33 PM
 
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I am just interested in understanding peoples points of view.

Interesting thing is I think on most issues we'd agree quite well. I think governments are too run by corporations with money - the US seems an extreme if this, but lots of countries suffer for it.

I just don't think vaccines make a lot of money for anyone, and they are subject to way too much oversight to be part of this. I agree rare reactions occur, but they're very rare, and I think the good which is done by vaccine saving millions of lives far outweighs that.


One's mind is closed if one feels there are no profits being made off vaccines.

One needs to look at who is the number 1 buyer in the US to really understand- one hand washes the other.

I live in a state with two vaccine manufactures, they are not hurting!
Given the money they throw around the community there certainly is profit-BIG $$$$

 

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#12 of 48 Old 04-09-2014, 04:39 PM
 
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I just don't think vaccines make a lot of money for anyone, and they are subject to way too much oversight to be part of this. I agree rare reactions occur, but they're very rare, and I think the good which is done by vaccine saving millions of lives far outweighs that.

 

I find the "vaccines don't make any money" argument quite disingenuous considering that the vaccine makers are indemnified, vaccine patent holders and others with ties to the pharma company can sit on the committee that votes to recommend the vaccines be added to the childhood schedule AND campaign to influence government policy makers to take away the rights of patients to obtain non-medical exemptions thereby forcing consumers to buy the product.

 

"The ability of vaccines to generate high revenue and profits despite being priced at a premium has proven attractive to both existing players in the market and to big pharmaceutical companies who have been watching the development of the market with interest."

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20100115005381/en/Research-Markets-Future-Global-Vaccines---Market#.U0XTsV741Fw

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#13 of 48 Old 04-10-2014, 04:10 AM
 
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How can you say that vaccines don't make much money for anyone if you have articles like this from the Pharmaceutical Industry itself?? http://www.pharmpro.com/articles/2012/01/expanding-vaccine-market

 

"Vaccines continue to be one of the brighter spots for  pharmaceutical companies in the current market, and revenues for vaccine products are expected to continue their double-digit growth in the future. Driving that growth is an increasing acceptance of adult vaccines and the public health focus on flu prevention, as well as introductions of new vaccines."

 

How on earth do you get "they don't make much money from vaccines" from that?  

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I have to echo the astonishment of the idea that vaccines don't make money. I think some people may think that because of all the free vaccine clinics as well as the facts that you don't pay out of pocket for them at the doctor's office. However, none of these clinics are free. They are all paid for by the government, just like vaccines being covered by insurance. Just because you don't reach into your pocket at that moment doesn't mean they don't cost money. One reason the company fought so hard to get Guardisil on the mandated schedule was because they wanted it covered by medicaid. Fortunately, there was such a push from people opposed to that specific vaccine, that it didn't happen. Even people who do regularly vaccinate were opposed to this one. I'll never forget all the publicity it got during the 2008 election and how certain people were derided and laughed at for saying Guardisil was dangerous and girls were dying and having serious complications. The media and other made these people look like crazy loons, but the results have proven they were correct.

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#15 of 48 Old 04-10-2014, 06:51 AM
 
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I just don't think vaccines make a lot of money for anyone, and they are subject to way too much oversight to be part of this. I agree rare reactions occur, but they're very rare, and I think the good which is done by vaccine saving millions of lives far outweighs that.

Define oversight.

 

"In three clinical studies, 434 doses of RECOMBIVAX HB, 5 mcg, were administered to 147 healthy infants and children (up to 10 years of age) who were monitored for 5 days after each dose."  

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/r/recombivax_hb/recombivax_pi.pdf

 

Are reactions rare or rarely reported?

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#16 of 48 Old 04-10-2014, 06:53 AM
 
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She didn't say they didn't make any money, she said they don't make a lot of money.

 

Have you ever seen a commercial for the polio vaccine here in the US? What about a commercial for tetanus? MMR? Diphtheria? rotavirus? Hep B?Chickenpox?

 

I never have. 

 

The only commercials I've ever seen for vaccines were for gardasil and the adult pertussis vaccine, and even then it's been months and months since I've seen one. 

 

Now Viagra? Sleeping pills? Zoloft? Anti depressants? Cholesterol medication?  I see those nearly every day. 

 

Which makes sense doesn't it?  Those are medications people take everyday for potentially decades.  Most vaccines are only administered 2 or 3 times in a person's lifetime. 

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She didn't say they didn't make any money, she said they don't make a lot of money.

Have you ever seen a commercial for the polio vaccine here in the US? What about a commercial for tetanus? Diphtheria? rotavirus? Hep B? 

I never have. 

The only commercials I've ever seen for vaccines were for gardasil and the adult pertussis vaccine, and even then it's been months and months since I've seen one. 

Now Viagra? Sleeping pills? Zoloft? Anti depressants? Cholesterol medication?  I see those nearly every day. 

Which makes sense doesn't it?  Those are medications people take everyday for potentially decades.  Most vaccines are only administered 2 or 3 times in a person's lifetime. 

Yea it all BS made up by those of us that see an issue---- vaccine manufactures are hurting soooooo bad- boo hoo

Must remember to forget history of big pharma and only look at ads to gage income!

Oh woo the poor vaccine corporations....
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#18 of 48 Old 04-10-2014, 07:17 AM
 
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Teacozy,

 

Here is what prosciencemum said:

 

"I just don't think vaccines make a lot of money for anyone"

 

That is clearly incorrect.

 

Why would there be commercials for vaccines already on the recommended childhood schedule?

 

Although when I first moved to the USA I did hear a radio commercial for vaccinating children by Every Child by Two. I remember thinking  "why would they need to advertise this?  What parent needs to be persuaded to vaccinate their children?"

 

Joke was on me.

 

I don't watch much cable television but I do see commercials for vaccines on the American channels particularly Twinrix, Gardasil , the shingles vaccine and of course the flu vaccine.

 

Not sure if you saw the Greater Good documentary but the young woman Gabby,  reviews all the meds she was taking as a result of her injury from Gardasil and if IRC it numbered around 36.  Of course that doesn't include any medical products used in the hospital (kidney stone attack) that Merck may have produced.

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#19 of 48 Old 04-10-2014, 07:24 AM
 
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Y
Yea it all BS made up by those of us that see an issue---- vaccine manufactures are hurting soooooo bad- boo hoo

Must remember to forget history of big pharma and only look at ads to gage income!

Oh woo the poor vaccine corporations....

 

Cost of the MMR vaccine: around 20 dollars per person.  http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/awardees/vaccine-management/price-list/

 

Public-sector cost of measles? 10, 376 dollars per case.  Of course not all of that goes to Big Pharma, but a heck of a lot more than 20 dollars does.  Indeed, the direct medical cost of just one 10 month old infant who was hospitalized for 72 hours for dehydration and diarrhea was 14, 458 dollars. 

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/03/22/peds.2009-1653.abstract

 

So tell me again how they make more money administering the vaccine? 

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#20 of 48 Old 04-10-2014, 07:28 AM
 
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She didn't say they didn't make any money, she said they don't make a lot of money.

 

Have you ever seen a commercial for the polio vaccine here in the US? What about a commercial for tetanus? MMR? Diphtheria? rotavirus? Hep B?Chickenpox?

 

I never have. 

 

The only commercials I've ever seen for vaccines were for gardasil and the adult pertussis vaccine, and even then it's been months and months since I've seen one. 

 

Now Viagra? Sleeping pills? Zoloft? Anti depressants? Cholesterol medication?  I see those nearly every day. 

 

Which makes sense doesn't it?  Those are medications people take everyday for potentially decades.  Most vaccines are only administered 2 or 3 times in a person's lifetime. 

 

They don't need to advertise routine childhood vaccinations on TV, they already have a captured market for these vaccines, thanks to government mandates and no product liability. They are advertising Gardasil, Shingles vax, and other adult vaccines because they want to increase sales, it is a vast market that hasn't reached its full potential by any means yet.

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They (the vaccine makers) are hurting soooo badly! Oh I hope the government can help them out!!

 

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304181204579364340685677438

 

http://www.fiercevaccines.com/special-reports/merck

 

http://centerforvaccineethicsandpolicy.net/2014/03/29/global-human-vaccine-industry-2013-2018-trends-profits-and-forecast-analysis/

 

 

The global vaccine industry comprises primarily human vaccine production. The annual revenue of this industry is forecast to reach an estimated $41.85 billion by 2018, with good growth over the next five years.         ah, hurting so bad! I would love to hurt this bad :rotflmao

 

 

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So tell me again how they make more money administering the vaccine? 

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I notice you didn't answer my question. 


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Public-sector cost of measles? 10, 376 dollars per case.  Of course not all of that goes to Big Pharma, but a heck of a lot more than 20 dollars does.  Indeed, the direct medical cost of just one 10 month old infant who was hospitalized for 72 hours for dehydration and diarrhea was 14, 458 dollars. 

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/03/22/peds.2009-1653.abstract

 

So tell me again how they make more money administering the vaccine? 

Over $10K per case?

 

I had measles.  Didn't even go to the doctor.  Don't see how my case of measles cost $10K

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I notice you didn't answer my question. 

your question about administration is not what prosciencemum stated, this was pointed out to you

 

let's repeat it - 

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I just don't think vaccines make a lot of money for anyone, and they are subject to way too much oversight to be part of this.

 

it has been shown they DO MAKE profit

 

 

 

 

 

your question about "administration" is mute-IMO

 

If you want to talk administration cost - go a head, you seem to think there is no profit there - ah, I don't share you vision on that either

 

http://www2.aap.org/immunization/pediatricians/pdf/TheBusinessCase.pdf

  1. Insurers understand business principles including the concept of return on investment and expect it in their business. There is no reason physicians should accept carrier refusal to pay separately and adequately for the vaccine product and the administration/counseling. Viable businesses pass on their increased costs to their purchasers to maintain profitability. 

 

Talk to someone who does medical billing involving vaccines and you might get a first had perspective, those I have told me it's big money, yes, they are not loosing and making a nice profit too.

 

yet another deflection attempt

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So tell me again how they make more money administering the vaccine? 


 

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Over $10K per case?

 

I had measles.  Didn't even go to the doctor.  Don't see how my case of measles cost $10K

 

My doctor made a house call, free on the NHS.


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#26 of 48 Old 04-10-2014, 08:42 AM
 
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I don't speak for PSM, but I did not interpret her statement "I just don't think vaccines make a lot of money for anyone"  as meaning "vaccines make zero profit". 

 

She can clarify what she means if she wants, but that is not how I interpreted it. 


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#27 of 48 Old 04-10-2014, 08:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

I don't speak for PSM, but I did not interpret her statement "I just don't think vaccines make a lot of money for anyone"  as meaning "vaccines make zero profit". 

 

She can clarify what she means if she wants, but that is not how I interpreted it. 

yea, it's a far cry from zero! 


 

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Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

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#28 of 48 Old 04-10-2014, 09:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

Cost of the MMR vaccine: around 20 dollars per person.  http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/awardees/vaccine-management/price-list/

 

 

From your link:

"The CDC Vaccine Price Lists posted on this website provide current vaccine contract prices and list the private sector vaccine prices for general information. Contract prices are those for CDC vaccine contracts that are established for the purchase of vaccines by immunization programs that receive CDC immunization grant funds (i.e., state health departments, certain large city immunization projects, and certain current and former U.S. territories). Private providers and private citizens cannot directly purchase vaccines through CDC contracts. Private sector prices are those reported by vaccine manufacturers annually to CDC. All questions regarding the private sector prices should be directed to the manufacturers."

The $20 price tag (10 pack ) is for the VCF program.  The private sector price is $56.139.

Here is the government contract awarded to Merck to produce vaccines for the VCF for 2014:

Contract Award Dollar Amount:
$3,001,020,600.00 (EST)

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=61381d36722568d4dca7c59d3d24a05d&tab=core&_cview=0

 

Assuming the WHO numbers on production are accurate:

"Vaccine production costs have a signifi- cant fixed cost component, reaching up to 90 percent of total costs. These costs include research and development (R&D), quality control and quality assurance, selling and distribution over- head, and the construction and mainte- nance of production facilities." http://www.who.int/immunization/programmes_systems/financing/analyses/en/briefcase_vacproduction.pdf

 

I don't think they are doing much R&D on the MMR but let's assume 10% profit on $3B= $300M  not too shabby and that doesn't include private sales.

 

 

 
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#29 of 48 Old 04-10-2014, 09:24 AM
 
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My doctor made a house call, free on the NHS.

It was free for you, but the doctor still billed the NHS and they paid him for that house call. If he gave you any medications, the NHS has paid for those as well. 
And you indirectly paid for it, assuming you pay taxes. 

The (average) cost of one case of the measles being 10K actually seems pretty reasonable to me. I've seen the hospital bills that get handed out to international students where I work, and it is not cheap.

That being said, the pharmaceutical companies don't make 10K on each measles case, but you can bet they make more than $15

BUT back to the original topic:
I do agree with Jon in that I feel that vaccine reactions need to be studied more closely and doctors need to take parents more seriously. I think that too many doctors are unwilling to admit that vaccines have reactions for fear of scaring parents off. I think that people need to be more aware of VAERS and how to use it. 

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#30 of 48 Old 04-10-2014, 09:34 AM
 
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The (average) cost of one case of the measles being 10K actually seems pretty reasonable to me. I've seen the hospital bills that get handed out to international students where I work, and it is not cheap.

 

But it's not $10K per case.  It might be for each hospitalized case. 

Then again, if you want to find out the real cost you would divide the costs into the total number of cases and we know that can't happen because no one knows the number of total cases.

You could divide the costs into the total number of reported number of cases provided that all reported cases were lab confirmed.  And the reason for designating lab confirmed is because one study in the UK found that 90% of the time when labs were done for reported cases sent in by doctors they were not measles. 

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