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Old 04-10-2014, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The recourse we have is with our dollars.  With something like Chili's it is easy - avoid.  Perhaps let others know why you avoid.  

 

With things like the National Post or Time Magazine it is trickier.  If you have a paper copy, you can cancel…whether or not you want to and at what point is up to you.  If my favourite paper posts a vaccine-bully article, should I cancel my subscription?  It is a hard call, because they might have merit in other ways.  I might let one nasty article go, I would not let several.  There are companies I avoid due to issues I have with them.

 

The online thing is trickier.  If I look at their site, I am a hit, if I comment, I am generating discussion….and all of this drives advertising dollars.  And yet, I want to look (most of the time!).  I think it is important to know what others are saying, I think it is important to share such information so  people understand the nastiness that is out there about people exercising their legal choice.  

 



Tea made that point, too, and it's a good one. I should just resolve to stop clicking on those links. It's not like I'm learning anything new from them. eyesroll.gif On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt any of us to log on to Disqus and speak up for the bullied . . . and let the news outlet know our views. Ombudsmen are the most powerful force, but only the more reputable media outlets, (the ones that don't participate in bullying and name-calling) have them. It's likely what keeps them reputable. shrug.gif

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Old 04-10-2014, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I absolutely would NOT!

 

I would not lift one finger to help someone who has posted comments from sites and by those who wish to attack me for exercising my legal choices and they go on to hide behind them! I can think of several posts made on here by those on the "other side" by groups and individuals bent on removing my rights. NO WAY!

 



I'll try to clarify with an example. In the extreme off-chance that somebody told a pro-vaxxer, "I hope your children die from a vaccine injury," would you tell the non-vaxxer to put a sock in it?

It's extremely hypothetical, as I've never seen anything like this, (while I've repeatedly seen people "joke" that about how nice it will be when VTDs kill off the unvaccinated). But if I'm asking pro-vaxxers to do hold their own accountable, I figure that the rest of us should remain committed to doing the same, should the occasion arise.

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Old 04-10-2014, 09:21 AM
 
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I absolutely would NOT!

 

I would not lift one finger to help someone who has posted comments from sites and by those who wish to attack me for exercising my legal choices and they go on to hide behind them! I can think of several posts made on here by those on the "other side" by groups and individuals bent on removing my rights. NO WAY!

 



I'll try to clarify with an example. In the extreme off-chance that somebody told a pro-vaxxer, "I hope your children die from a vaccine injury," would you tell the non-vaxxer to put a sock in it?

It's extremely hypothetical, as I've never seen anything like this, (while I've repeatedly seen people "joke" that about how nice it will be when VTDs kill off the unvaccinated). But if I'm asking pro-vaxxers to do hold their own accountable, I figure that the rest of us should remain committed to doing the same, should the occasion arise.

still no, one I have never ever seen that, two, there is a report button, one should use it - I'm not a "police person" it's not my duty to be the "moral authority of others", I think those who feel they need to do are stepping beyond and think of themselves as morally superior (that is how they come off)

 

Frankly I have seen what I feel are OUTRAGEOUS statement (some not even close to true) that are simply left go and not respond to in the VOS section, some that would be medically endangering, etc and nothing is done about it, so all in all my answer is NO. 


 

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Old 04-10-2014, 09:24 AM
 
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Regarding media, "some" blogs that are run by corporations actually do take comments - by off the blog, you can report inaccurate statements, offensive, etc to the ombudsman of the entity and often there is action taken.

 

Money also talks, canceling subscriptions, letting advertisers know is also very helpful!


 

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Old 04-10-2014, 09:33 AM
 
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I absolutely think that's wrong and don't even have any idea which post you guys are talking about.   I'm guessing it was deleted? Because I didn't see it. 

 

Whoever said that should have their post deleted and be temporarily (if not permanently) banned. 

 



You didn't answer her question.

 

Sorry, I'll try and answer. 

 

If I am actively participating in a discussion I would probably call someone out on it. 

 

Here on mothering? We've been told not to do so.  The mods have made it extremely clear that if we see a violation, or someone posts something on our support forum that they shouldn't, we should just flag the comment, or point them to the forum guidelines if they are new. They have said not to respond by calling out of criticizing the individual. 


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Old 04-10-2014, 09:43 AM
 
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Sorry, I'll try and answer. 

 

If I am actively participating in a discussion I would probably call someone out on it. 

 

Here on mothering? We've been told not to do so.  The mods have made it extremely clear that if we see a violation, or someone posts something on our support forum that they shouldn't, that we should just flag the comment, or point them to the forum guidelines if they are new. They have said not to respond by criticizing the individual. 

again, that is not what she asked of you - 

 

her question was - (I find it quite clear) - 

 

 

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Teacozy, if someone called me a murderer or said my children should be taken away would you try and put a stop to it? Would you stick up for me? Just curious.

 

 

Teacozy you have made several post that link individuals that directly call dalia (and those who do not vaccinate their children) a murderer, you must stand behind their statements or you would not have posted links to their work. You have posted links to blogs that call for parental rights to be removed for those who do not vaccinate their children also. 


 

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Old 04-10-2014, 09:46 AM
 
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Serenbat, I did answer the question.  

 

I can agree with certain parts or certain points a person or article makes without having to agree with everything.  It doesn't have to be all or nothing. 


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Old 04-10-2014, 09:49 AM
 
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Serenbat, I did answer the question.  

 

I can agree with certain parts or certain points a person or article makes without having to agree with everything.  It doesn't have to be all or nothing. 

IF you are saying you would stand up for Dalia and the rest........why do you continue to post and link blog of individuals that promote the removal of parents rights and call those who do not vaccinate their children murderers? Double standard isn't it?


 

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Old 04-10-2014, 09:49 AM
 
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still no, one I have never ever seen that, two, there is a report button, one should use it - I'm not a "police person" it's not my duty to be the "moral authority of others", I think those who feel they need to do are stepping beyond and think of themselves as morally superior (that is how they come off)

 

Frankly I have seen what I feel are OUTRAGEOUS statement (some not even close to true) that are simply left go and not respond to in the VOS section, some that would be medically endangering, etc and nothing is done about it, so all in all my answer is NO. 

So you're saying that because they have said nasty, terrible things to you (you being vaccine critics), you can say nasty, terrible things to them? that's not the way to run a debate. I'm speaking about the debate board, mainly because I don't spend much time on VOS or INV. Although I do think that comments should still be flagged for removal if they violate the UA. 

This needs to stop being "us against them" and we need to realize that we ALL need to hold each other AND ourselves to a higher standard if we're going to have true debates and discussions. 
After reading the forum guidelines, I honestly think that this forum needs MUCH stricter guidelines to continue. One of the things I would LOVE to see stop is "well you posted XX on a different thread, so there!" 
 

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Old 04-10-2014, 09:55 AM
 
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So you're saying that because they have said nasty, terrible things to you (you being vaccine critics), you can say nasty, terrible things to them? that's not the way to run a debate. I'm speaking about the debate board, mainly because I don't spend much time on VOS or INV. Although I do think that comments should still be flagged for removal if they violate the UA. 

This needs to stop being "us against them" and we need to realize that we ALL need to hold each other AND ourselves to a higher standard if we're going to have true debates and discussions. 
After reading the forum guidelines, I honestly think that this forum needs MUCH stricter guidelines to continue. One of the things I would LOVE to see stop is "well you posted XX on a different thread, so there!" 
 

sorry but you are greatly missing my point

 

if YOU want to play moral police person go right ahead

 

as far as stating when someone posts one VOP on one thread and totally different POV on another and you call them on, I think that is pointing out an inaccuracy and should be done

 

Us against them, if you are a minority being picked on, they clearly are against you, pretending they are not is simply that - pretend! 


 

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Old 04-10-2014, 09:56 AM
 
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So you're saying that because they have said nasty, terrible things to you (you being vaccine critics), you can say nasty, terrible things to them? that's not the way to run a debate. 

By the way, I do not identity myself as a vaccine critic in anyway, shape or form,

 

I did not name call you and would like you to not label me! 


 

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Old 04-10-2014, 10:39 AM
 
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By the way, I do not identity myself as a vaccine critic in anyway, shape or form,

 

I did not name call you and would like you to not label me! 

I apologize if you feel I labelled you, I was speaking in the plural group of you. Previously, I have gotten yelled at because I said "anti-vaccine group" and was unsure what to call one "side" verses another "side"

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Old 04-10-2014, 10:41 AM
 
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sorry but you are greatly missing my point

 

if YOU want to play moral police person go right ahead

 

as far as stating when someone posts one VOP on one thread and totally different POV on another and you call them on, I think that is pointing out an inaccuracy and should be done

 

Us against them, if you are a minority being picked on, they clearly are against you, pretending they are not is simply that - pretend! 

Thank you for clarifying your point for me. 
My statement of "us against them" needs to stop was to for the purposes of creating a safe space where people can discuss vaccine issues and (perhaps!) we can all gain insight on the other "side". It was not meant to imply that there was no bullying happening, as I have stated previously, there clearly is. 

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Old 04-10-2014, 11:03 AM
 
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Thank you for clarifying your point for me. 
My statement of "us against them" needs to stop was to for the purposes of creating a safe space where people can discuss vaccine issues and (perhaps!) we can all gain insight on the other "side". It was not meant to imply that there was no bullying happening, as I have stated previously, there clearly is. 

I don't think one side cares one bit about insight or "understanding" of me or the camp I mostly align with. 

 

I'm not seeking out insight on the side that vaccinates, their position about me has been made abundantly clear (as in they are the ones controlling the media message) - I personally don't see ANY compassion at all expressed toward me, I see the opposite (restricting on my legal rights, down right condemnation of my choice and discrimination towards my child). I'm not here to have others gain insight as to how to best abuse me either.

 

If one really "cared" (using that loosely here because I don't buy it for a minute), all you need to do is read the countless threads (not only on here) of all the abuse non-vaccers are subjected to. Countless news articles also exist. I think it's "easy" to see.


 

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Old 04-10-2014, 11:53 AM
 
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Going back to the original question, then yes, I would and I have called out pro-vax people for their rudeness and lack of understanding. I do it frequently in other forums, and I often PM new pro vax posters here to suggest politer and more factual based posting may be a more effective form of debate.

I have even started threads about how to debate with more respect. And I block people who in my opinion cross a line. I can still read their posts by clicking on them, but that act reminds me to take a deep breath first.

I also don't read the INV posts (I have in the past, but I find it upsets me and as I cannot even correct factual inaccuracies it's a waste if my time). I suggest those who are against vaccines should steer clear of VOS.

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Old 04-10-2014, 01:08 PM
 
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Serenbat...thanks for posting.  I feel a little less alone.  :)


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Old 04-10-2014, 01:25 PM
 
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Serenbat...thanks for posting.  I feel a little less alone.  :)

my proposal still stands. Just sayin'
 

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Old 04-10-2014, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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still no, one I have never ever seen that, two, there is a report button, one should use it - I'm not a "police person" it's not my duty to be the "moral authority of others", I think those who feel they need to do are stepping beyond and think of themselves as morally superior (that is how they come off)

Frankly I have seen what I feel are OUTRAGEOUS statement (some not even close to true) that are simply left go and not respond to in the VOS section, some that would be medically endangering, etc and nothing is done about it, so all in all my answer is NO. 

Off MDC, too? That is, you wouldn't say anything to decry cyber-bullying *from the vax-choice side* if you saw it on another site?

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Old 04-10-2014, 02:31 PM
 
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Off MDC, too? That is, you wouldn't anything to decry cyber-bullying on another site?

 

Not really understanding what you are asking??

 

off MDC - I have see tons of bullying 99% directed towards those who don't vaccinate, extremely lopsided, but I'm really not sure what you are asking??

 

cyber-bullyin on other sites - again, I see it really one sided, I have never seen a person who does not vac say they hope a child would die or anything even close to that - I have seen threats made to those who DO NOT vac, not the other way around - again, there are ways to deal with things - with news media sites you can report things, with private blogs, if they rely on ads you can let the company know (most don't know what their ads are even on) - but I'm not sure if this is what you mean or not?

 

IRL I also see those who vac feel it's open season to go after those who don't, most are quite clueless and actually have NO idea they are not even up to date

 

I'm sorry but not sure really what you mean, tried to explain based on what I think you mean - if this is not correct, let me know


 

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Old 04-10-2014, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OK, a quick search on the terms "David Gorksi" and "idiot" pulled up quite a few hits from non-vax sites. If pressed to the wall, I will admit that I don't think fondly of Gorksi's character. And name-calling with "idiot" is bad but hardly equates to what parents like Dalia go through. But there are plenty of chances for us to speak up. If we get angry, They get angry. When They (those who espouse more fanatical views) get angry, they retaliate. Remember that they have more money, power, and influence than we vax schedule skeptics ever will. If the most sane among us don't speak out against the madness, it's only going to get worse.

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Old 04-10-2014, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Edited my post for clarification, Serenbat.

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Old 04-10-2014, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Going back to the original question, then yes, I would and I have called out pro-vax people for their rudeness and lack of understanding. I do it frequently in other forums, and I often PM new pro vax posters here to suggest politer and more factual based posting may be a more effective form of debate.

I have even started threads about how to debate with more respect. And I block people who in my opinion cross a line. I can still read their posts by clicking on them, but that act reminds me to take a deep breath first.

I also don't read the INV posts (I have in the past, but I find it upsets me and as I cannot even correct factual inaccuracies it's a waste if my time). I suggest those who are against vaccines should steer clear of VOS.

I appreciate your strong stance against cyber-bullying and your belief in online civility. Would you be willing to extend these principles to more subtle insults that don't necessarily qualify as bullying? I ask in light of a satirical Onion piece recently posted in VOS that mocks non-compliant families.

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Old 04-10-2014, 02:41 PM
 
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Edited my post for clarification, Serenbat.

I haven't experience it, I can't say I ever saw anything. Again, you usually have resources for dealing with things - report, file a complaint, speak with your money, etc

 

I don't feel I have the "moral superiority" to go after others because I can't say anything even close has occurred. I can see on here many feeling they are somehow a judge of morality and feel they have the right to go after others yet say they are not, but what ever - I like the report button on here.

 

I don't even know of a profoundly damaged vaccine reaction parent that even wishes ill vs clueless others that have wished my child would die or that my child should be taken away from me for my legal rights, so NO is still my answer.


 

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Old 04-10-2014, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry to hear that. I'll drop it. shrug.gif

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Old 04-10-2014, 02:45 PM
 
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Going back to the original question, then yes, I would and I have called out pro-vax people for their rudeness and lack of understanding. I do it frequently in other forums, and I often PM new pro vax posters here to suggest politer and more factual based posting may be a more effective form of debate.

I have even started threads about how to debate with more respect. And I block people who in my opinion cross a line. I can still read their posts by clicking on them, but that act reminds me to take a deep breath first.

I also don't read the INV posts (I have in the past, but I find it upsets me and as I cannot even correct factual inaccuracies it's a waste if my time). I suggest those who are against vaccines should steer clear of VOS.
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post


I appreciate your strong stance against cyber-bullying and your belief in online civility. Would you be willing to extend these principles to more subtle insults that don't necessarily qualify as bullying? I ask in light of a satirical Onion piece recently posted in VOS that mocks non-compliant families.
 

I don't see this the way you do Turquesa, I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses. I can personally say I have a real issues with this given the poster and I have saved copies of bullying done that were directly worded towards me - YES I have a real issue with "revisionist" and let's just pretend we didn't write things when they are still out there.


 

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Old 04-10-2014, 03:15 PM
 
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This is not the first time you've accused prosciencemum of bullying.  I haven't seen anything of the sort.  Please link to the posts you consider to be bullying.


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Old 04-10-2014, 03:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rainbownurse View Post
 

my proposal still stands. Just sayin'
 

I am not sure what proposal you mean - unless it is to comment when people (particularly on your own "team") are being UAV's.  Please clarify if I am wrong.

 

Out in the real world - I  will do it as I see fit.  Telling people to stop being a bully is never wrong.

 

On MDC, it is trickier, but I will still do as I see fit, and that may change from time to time and given the context. I am uncomfortable with telling people who are frequently (on MDC and elsewhere) the victims of nastiness that they should tone it down.   

 

No one on this thread has committed to calling people on being UAV on MDC. I have my own suspicions as to why, but none of it (IMHO) comes down to "it is against MDC rules"  (People break rules here, usually about ad hominem attacks or where to post all.the.time...it is handy to cite rules, though, when it suits you).  Oh, and for what it is worth - I actually did tell a fellow NVer to be careful as she was heading into defamation of character territory on a certain thread -and I did not get my hand mod-slapped at all.  


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Old 04-10-2014, 03:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
 

 

 

 

off MDC - I have see tons of bullying 99% directed towards those who don't vaccinate, extremely lopsided, but I'm really not sure what you are asking??

 

cyber-bullyin on other sites - again, I see it really one sided, I have never seen a person who does not vac say they hope a child would die or anything even close to that - I have seen threats made to those who DO NOT vac, not the other way around - again, there are ways to deal with things - with news media sites you can report things, with private blogs, if they rely on ads you can let the company know (most don't know what their ads are even on) - but I'm not sure if this is what you mean or not?

 

IRL I also see those who vac feel it's open season to go after those who don't, most are quite clueless and actually have NO idea they are not even up to date

 

 

You really think the bullying is one sided? It most certainly is not. 

 

Paul Offit has had death threats, people posted information about his children online, like their names and where they went to school.  At a meeting at the CDC, a non vaxxer with a sign calling Paul Offit a terrorist grabbed him by the jacket and pulled him backwards.  It's been such an issue that Paul Offit can't even do public book signings anymore because of the aggressive verbal attacks he would get from the non vaxxers who would show up in droves.

 

There was a pretty public issue a couple years ago when non vaxxers called up Gorski's place of work and tried to get him fired. 

 

Several months ago, a group of non vaxxers attempted to silence/censor a group of pro vaxxers by exploiting a facebook loophole and getting their accounts banned over and over for absolutely no reason.  There are screen shots that show this was deliberate and intentional. 

 

Not to mention the many many many blog posts about Dorit Reiss, Paul Offit, Orac, etc on non vax sites.

 

Yes some of them are public figures so one can argue that part of that comes with the territory, but it is still bullying on a massive scale. 

 

Say what you want about Orac or Paul Offit or Dorit Reiss, but they have never personally threatened anybody.  

 

Again, my point is that both sides are guilty of personally attacking/bullying members of the other "side". 


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Old 04-10-2014, 03:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

You really think the bullying is one sided? It most certainly is not. 

 

 

If you cannot see than non-vaxxers have it worse, then there is nothing to say.  


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Old 04-10-2014, 03:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

I am not sure what proposal you mean - unless it is to comment when people (particularly on your own "team") are being UAV's.  Please clarify if I am wrong.

 

Out in the real world - I  will do it as I see fit.  Telling people to stop being a bully is never wrong.

 

On MDC, it is trickier, but I will still do as I see fit, and that may change from time to time and given the context. I am uncomfortable with telling people who are frequently (on MDC and elsewhere) the victims of nastiness that they should tone it down.   

 

No one on this thread has committed to calling people on being UAV on MDC. I have my own suspicions as to why, but none of it (IMHO) comes down to "it is against MDC rules"  (People break rules here, usually about ad hominem attacks or where to post all.the.time...it is handy to cite rules, though, when it suits you).  Oh, and for what it is worth - I actually did tell a fellow NVer to be careful as she was heading into defamation of character territory on a certain thread -and I did not get my hand mod-slapped at all.  

I proposed that we run away together a while back. I can't remember the exact thread, but I recall telling you my husband was  good baker. 

I 100% agree, telling people to stop being a bully is never wrong. 
I will absolutely call people out when I see it happening. I hesitated to do so because I am a poster on other forums where "calling out" is very much against the rules, and WILL get your hand slapped, very quickly. 
I stopped posting here for a while, because all I saw was personal attacks (from both sides) but I would like to start posting again, and seeing constructive debates take place. 
 

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