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#31 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 12:33 PM
 
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Then the person who put out the meme was being disingenuous. Wouldn't you agree, Tea?

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#32 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Then the person who put out the meme was being disingenuous. Wouldn't you agree, Tea?

Isn't it also disingenuous to repost undocumented information? 


 

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#33 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 12:36 PM
 
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that is a much different statement from what you HAD posted with the photo

 

They may have also died from a falling star, it does not make accurate, respectful to say or assume and use it for propaganda to advance a agenda! 

 

Wrong again, and I would like you to edit that statement.  Go and look at the post.  It's never been edited.   My exact words were "I believe the 5 that died in 1890 succumbed to a diphtheria outbreak." 

 

That's very different than saying " The 5 that died in 1890 succumbed to a diphtheria outbreak."


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#34 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wrong again, and I would like you to edit that statement. NO.  Go and look at the post.  It's never been edited.   My exact words were "I believe the 5 that died in 1890 succumbed to a diphtheria outbreak."

12 children dead, hard to even imagine.  I believe the 5 that died in 1890 succumbed to a diphtheria outbreak.   This picture also demonstrates quite well why vaccines help control population levels.  How often do you see a family of 12 children these days? 

 

I don't see the word "MAY".


 

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#35 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 12:40 PM
 
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12 children dead, hard to even imagine.  I believe the 5 that died in 1890 succumbed to a diphtheria outbreak.   This picture also demonstrates quite well why vaccines help control population levels.  How often do you see a family of 12 children these days? 

 

Right.  That's not a statement of fact. Believe being the key word there. 


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#36 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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They "may" have died from a falling start, or a house fire - I can have an opinion but I would not think to put out ANY propaganda to advance a agenda using deceased people when clearly you do not know the facts.


 

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#37 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 12:50 PM
 
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May I ask where the original Meme discussed in this thread was posted - I've never seen it before and I'm curious as to who would post such a thing if in fact it isn't truly how those children died.

In general I'm not a fan of memes on either side of the debate. I find that they generally come across as demeaning and mocking which doesn't help any when trying to keep a debate civil and mature.
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#38 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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May I ask where the original Meme discussed in this thread was posted - I've never seen it before and I'm curious as to who would post such a thing if in fact it isn't truly how those children died.

In general I'm not a fan of memes on either side of the debate. I find that they generally come across as demeaning and mocking which doesn't help any when trying to keep a debate civil and mature.

I would not think to post that sites link!

 

It's a site I have seen EXTREME inaccurate propaganda posted on. I do not feel it needs more acknowledgement. Perhaps someone else who feels it's expectable will post it. 

 

I feel using this family is deplorable! 

 

ETA- using ANY family like this is deplorable


 

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#39 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 01:00 PM
 
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They "may" have died from a falling start, or a house fire - I can have an opinion but I would not think to put out ANY propaganda to advance a agenda using deceased people when clearly you do not know the facts.

 

You mean like posts claiming a  young man died from the flu vaccine, even though there is absolutely no way of knowing if he did or not?  http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1393411/mother-believes-her-19-yr-old-son-died-from-complications-of-flu-shot

 

Or posts claiming women died from the Gardasil vaccine?  Or claims that vaccines cause SIDS? or links to VAERS (which are absolutely not evidence of vaccine harm, as the site says itself)? 

 

Or stories claiming 37 people died from a vaccine in India? http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1391839/another-thinking-doctor-the-unfortunate-story-of-37-deaths-from-a-good-vaccine

 

Or is it OK in those instances? 


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#40 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 01:02 PM
 
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May I ask where the original Meme discussed in this thread was posted - I've never seen it before and I'm curious as to who would post such a thing if in fact it isn't truly how those children died.

In general I'm not a fan of memes on either side of the debate. I find that they generally come across as demeaning and mocking which doesn't help any when trying to keep a debate civil and mature.

 

I'm guessing she saw it on the facebook page, refutations to anti vaccine memes.   https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM


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#41 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You mean like posts claiming a  young man died from the flu vaccine, even though there is absolutely no way of knowing if he did or not?  http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1393411/mother-believes-her-19-yr-old-son-died-from-complications-of-flu-shot

 

Or posts claiming women died from the Gardasil vaccine?  Or claims that vaccines cause SIDS? or links to VAERS (which are absolutely not evidence of vaccine harm, as the site says itself)? 

 

Or stories claiming 37 people died from a vaccine in India? http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1391839/another-thinking-doctor-the-unfortunate-story-of-37-deaths-from-a-good-vaccine

 

Or is it OK in those instances? 

These families are still around and have spoken out on this. There are also news stories reporting these events with the names.

 

Where is the evidence to supporting this on the Bridge family?

 

That is not the same as taking a random photo and assuming when no evidence exists for these claims.


 

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#42 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 01:14 PM
 
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These families are still around and have spoken out on this. There are also news stories reporting this events with the names.

 

Where is the evidence to supporting this on the Bridge family?

 

That is not the same as taking a random photo and assuming when no evidence exists for these claims.

 

So?  There is no evidence that they died from the vaccine.  In the flu vaccine example the didn't want an autopsy, we simply do not know. 

 

Because a family says so is not evidence.

 

And where are the names and families of the 37 "vaccine deaths" from India? 


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#43 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So?  There is no evidence that they died from the vaccine.  Because a family says so is not evidence! BUT someone looking at photo "believes" so! :laughThat must be science! 

Trying to derail!  :rotflmao


 

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#44 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 01:31 PM
 
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Because a family says so is not evidence.


I disagree.

In a court of law (if the family were actually permitted to testify in a court of law), if the family said (as they have), " our LO was healthy before being injected with a flu shot, and after being injected, became terribly ill, with symptoms that have been reported by thousands of others, also after flu shots," that would likely be accepted as evidence, especially if no documentation of prior health issues, substance abuse, or other environmental exposures existed.

As Serenbat pointed out, these families are out here, trying to get their message across, in an effort to save others.

That's very different from taking a 140-year-old case with absolutely no evidence, and even suggesting that they died of diphtheria. You would be up in arms if WE suggested that the family had died from a bad-batch smallpox vaccine reaction--with no hard evidence that they'd even been given a vaccine!

You are free to make conjectures, of course, but this one was way over the line.

It is just as likely that they died in a fire, or of malaria, or of some other virus, or of food poisoning, of well-poisoning, or from something purchased from a snake-oil salesman.
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#45 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 01:47 PM
 
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The fact is that somebody started a meme implying that a family died of a vaccine-targeted illness. They used zero supporting evidence to prove this, however-no vital records, no obituaries, not even a family Bible. This, in a word, is wrong. It is now being shared in an indiscriminate manner with no regard for the facts and no respect for the Bridge descendents.

Tea cozy, rather than change the subject or hunt for hypocrisies, could you tell me if you agree or disagree with me?

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#46 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 01:50 PM
 
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I disagree.

In a court of law (if the family were actually permitted to testify in a court of law), if the family said (as they have), " our LO was healthy before being injected with a flu shot, and after being injected, became terribly ill, with symptoms that have been reported by thousands of others, also after flu shots," that would likely be accepted as evidence, especially if no documentation of prior health issues, substance abuse, or other environmental exposures existed.

As Serenbat pointed out, these families are out here, trying to get their message across, in an effort to save others.

That's very different from taking a 140-year-old case with absolutely no evidence, and even suggesting that they died of diphtheria. You would be up in arms if WE suggested that the family had died from a bad-batch smallpox vaccine reaction--with no hard evidence that they'd even been given a vaccine!

You are free to make conjectures, of course, but this one was way over the line.

It is just as likely that they died in a fire, or of malaria, or of some other virus, or of food poisoning, of well-poisoning, or from something purchased from a snake-oil salesman.

Or even an illness not targeted by vaccines, like scarlet fever. Or who knows? Maybe diphtheria. It's the assumptions that I find unnerving.

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#47 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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 It's the assumptions that I find unnerving.

 

There is another way to look at this - legally 

 

Is legal to assert this about this family?  Not to mention ethically just? 

 

 

I don't wish to side step your question, I too would LOVE to know this answer! I don't want it to get "buried" you did ask it earlier and it was not answered.

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The fact is that somebody started a meme implying that a family died of a vaccine-targeted illness. They used zero supporting evidence to prove this, however-no vital records, no obituaries, not even a family Bible. This, in a word, is wrong. It is now being shared in an indiscriminate manner with no regard for the facts and no respect for the Bridge descendents.

Tea cozy, rather than change the subject or hunt for hypocrisies, could you tell me if you agree or disagree with me?

 

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#48 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 02:15 PM
 
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To me it really doesn't seem any different to digging out stories of horrible vaccine reactions to induce an emotional response against vaccinating. I would prefer this wasn't a tactic used by any side personally, but I understand that many people are very swayed by emotion, so I understand why people do it.

In any case diphtheria deaths in this era were common. It's not an unlikely explanation for the deaths even if there's no direct proof.

How horrible to loose so many children all at once whatever the cause. How grateful I am for modern healthcare making this seem so extraordinary.

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#49 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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To me it really doesn't seem any different to digging out stories of horrible vaccine reactions to induce an emotional response against vaccinating. I would prefer this wasn't a tactic used by any side personally, but I understand that many people are very swayed by emotion, so I understand why people do it. You have posted memes from the site Teacozy linked, so you only support "certain" memes yet support that site doing one like this?

In any case diphtheria deaths in this era were common. It's not an unlikely explanation for the deaths even if there's no direct proof.

How horrible to loose so many children all at once whatever the cause. How grateful I am for modern healthcare making this seem so extraordinary.

Really? You can just jump to diphtheria that quickly?

 

Actually the part of PA we are talking is mine country and lots of areas also have quarries, just like in the UK, and filled with emigrants mainly from the UK- just some FYI.

 

Also farming and everyday fires killed lots too but you think diphtheria is more suited? Based on what? 


 

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#50 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 02:28 PM
 
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I think some of the posts of "refutations to anti-vaccine memes" are quite good visualisations of some of the scientific concepts behind vaccination. Not all of them are emotionally targeted.

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#51 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think some of the posts of "refutations to anti-vaccine memes" are quite good visualisations of some of the scientific concepts behind vaccination. Not all of them are emotionally targeted.

I take it in this case you support refutations? 


 

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this is the closest to any relevancy, the date is May of 1890 - and baring many variables NO one knows it is difficult at best to even contemplate "diphtheria" as the case when the number one cause for the children age group(s) was "All Other", diarrhea, consumption, heart, pneumonia, nervous diseases, etc  killed far more - but yea, "diphtheria" instills fear and serves a propaganda use doesn't it?

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsushistorical/vsush_1890_4.pdf      page 503 is most accurate for possible for children 

 

ETA- there was also a flood near there that effected outlining areas in 89' 


 

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@serenbat  I've said multiple times in this thread that you're right, we don't know for certain.   It is statistically much more likely that they died from a VPD than from an accident, however. 

 

See these statistics from 19000-1902 (keep in mind that the diphtheria anti toxin had been available since 1895, so the percentages from 1890 before it was available are likely higher) 

 

First we need to look at the ages of the children that died during 1890. This is important because certain diseases (like diarrhea, pertussis, bronchitis) make up a lot of the deaths but were statistically a lot more likely to kill very young children. 

 

Their ages at time of death were: 20, 19, 12, 10 and 8.

 

It won't let me copy and paste but here is the link from 1900-1902 death statistics.  http://www.nber.org/chapters/c11541.pdf

 

In the 5-14 age group, Diphtheria alone accounted for 14 percent of all deaths.   Death from accidents accounted for only 3% of deaths.  When you add deaths from measles and other VPDs it's pretty clear that the diphtheria/VPD guess is statistically a lot more likely than the accident guess.  

 

Now, was the meme misleading? I think so, since it implied that they all died from VPDs, and we don't have any evidence to conclusively say that.

 

Do I think it's wrong to post a picture of it in a thread in a support forum, while making it clear that I am only guessing as to what I think a likely cause of death is for just one year on the grave stone? No. I am baffled by the notion that you think it should be illegal to do so.  That's part of the intrigue in going to old cemeteries.  Wondering and guessing what happened to people and families. People photograph old gravestones in cemeteries as a hobby.  It's history and it's interesting. 


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#54 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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@serenbat  I've said multiple times in this thread that you're right, we don't know for certain.   It is statistically much more likely that they died from a VPD than from an accident, however. 

 

See these statistics from 19000-1902 (keep in mind that the diphtheria anti toxin had been available since 1895, so the percentages from 1890 before it was available are likely higher) 

 

First we need to look at the ages of the children that died during 1890. This is important because certain diseases (like diarrhea, pertussis, bronchitis) make up a lot of the deaths but were statistically a lot more likely to kill very young children. 

 

Their ages at time of death were: 20, 19, 12, 10 and 8.

 

It won't let me copy and paste but here is the link from 1900-1902 death statistics.  http://www.nber.org/chapters/c11541.pdf

 

In the 5-14 age group, Diphtheria alone accounted for 14 percent of all deaths.   Death from accidents accounted for only 3% of deaths.  When you add deaths from measles and other VPDs it's pretty clear that the diphtheria/VPD guess is statistically a lot more likely than the accident guess.  

 

Now, was the meme misleading? I think so, since it implied that they all died from VPDs. YET you have no problem using it as well, nor implying it.

 

Do I think it's propaganda to post a picture of it in a thread in a support forum, while making it clear that I am only guessing as to what I think a likely cause of death is for just one year on the grave stone? No. I am baffled by the notion that you think it should be illegal to do so. Continue to be!  That's part of the intrigue in going to old cemeteries.  Wondering and guessing what happened to people and families. People photograph old gravestones in cemeteries as a hobby.  It's history and it's interesting. Using them for propaganda has ethical, moral and legal consequences!

you are off regarding your "theory" on the death statistics with regards the censes pertaining to this family

 

those deaths would not have been counted in the 1900 -1902 and the year 1890 is not the correct year to start with - so your reasoning is not close to correct 

 

 

 

 

ETA- Let me try an explain this again, I DID NOT just use one source for the information I put in this thread regarding this family, I also used others.

 

What I did was ask St Vincent's a simple straight forward question, "did they all die from diphtheria", because there is no record of any diphtheria outbreak within the time frame, in the area,etc.

St Vincent's came back to me and supplied me with FAR more information that I did not ask about. I would not have had information on this because it is also not on the internet. When a person in position states, they have no evidence of disease casing these deaths, that is sufficient for me.

I also was told infactly that information on the internet is not accurate. Again, I get that, too bad others are determine to make this something that it is not to suite an agenda. 

 

 I feel the dead deserve RESPECT and again, I feel the way this family is portrayed is deplorable. They are being used.


 

 pro-transparency advocate

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lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

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Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

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#55 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't want this to be missed or "buried". 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post



Tea cozy, rather than change the subject or hunt for hypocrisies, could you tell me if you agree or disagree with me?

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

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#56 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 09:10 PM
 
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I'm honestly OK letting this one go. Usually a lack of an answer speaks volumes on its own, anyway.

MDC is a format for amateur debate, which is fine. In a more formal context, my opponents would have the burden of rejoinder, or an obligation to rebut my points directly in order to keep the debate both focused and flowing.

I argue that it is inappropriate and wrong to take a family's grave marker out of context, presume the causes of death without any supporting references, and broadcast it online to make a political statement for vaccine compliance. Ideally, somebody would fulfill the burden of rejoinder and argue that A.) There are supporting references, and here they are or B) There are no supporting references but creating and sharing the meme is A-OK and here's why . . . To respond by shifting the focus to someone's hypocrisy is one of many ways of evading the burden of rejoinder.

I'm kind of a geek. I soaked in a whole seminar on this topic once. geek.gif

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#57 of 232 Old 04-17-2014, 10:00 PM
 
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I am impressed, Turquesa. 

 

The lack of such a seminar in my life has frustrated me more than once in my life. 
 

So good for you!! Hope you are feeling better.


"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#58 of 232 Old 04-18-2014, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
 

Trying to derail!  :rotflmao

 

serenbat, comments like this are not appropriate nor is trying to cast a person in a negative light. Discuss the topic, not the individual. Don't make it personal or accusative.


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#59 of 232 Old 04-18-2014, 01:48 AM
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that is a much different statement from what you HAD posted with the photo

 

They may have also died from a falling star, it does not make accurate, respectful to say or assume and use it for propaganda to advance a agenda! 

 

serenbat, please edit your post to remove this accusation. Whether or not a member edited their post to change the wording of it is not something you can prove without a mod or admin verifying it. So posting something like this is inappropriate and not helpful to the discussion.


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#60 of 232 Old 04-18-2014, 02:04 AM
 
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My aunt died of diphtheria at age four. My grandad sat with her all night, while she choked to death in a horrible, horrible battle for life that she lost. He was never right after that and never connected with his subsequent daughters, feared getting as close to them as he had to his first little girl. This has caused SO much upset and tension decades later. My mum and her four sisters never really got to know their broken daddy very well. He turned to chain-smoking and alcoholism after his little girl's death and died at a young age, alone and divorced.

 

Diphtheria is HORRIBLE, really really nasty. I can't even bring myself to post the details he told his daughters about her death, it is too gruesome.

 

I have no understanding whatsoever why ANYONE would deny their child this vaccination. My grandad would have given his life for it.

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