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Old 04-18-2014, 03:24 AM
 
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Einemutter - that must be hard to share. What a horrible history to have in your family.

Perhaps the grave used wasn't checked properly for background, perhaps it was (I haven't looked into it enough to form an opinion), but the point it is trying to make is that mass family deaths from diptheria and other vpds were common in the past, and thankfully now are not.

I googled diptheria cemetary to see if I could come up with a better researched example. I found this: http://dianastaresinicdeane.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/lessons-from-a-kansas-graveyard-what-a-1903-outbreak-of-diphtheria-can-teach-us-today/

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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Old 04-18-2014, 05:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My aunt died of diphtheria at age four. My grandad sat with her all night, while she choked to death in a horrible, horrible battle for life that she lost. He was never right after that and never connected with his subsequent daughters, feared getting as close to them as he had to his first little girl. This has caused SO much upset and tension decades later. My mum and her four sisters never really got to know their broken daddy very well. He turned to chain-smoking and alcoholism after his little girl's death and died at a young age, alone and divorced.

Diphtheria is HORRIBLE, really really nasty. I can't even bring myself to post the details he told his daughters about her death, it is too gruesome.

I have no understanding whatsoever why ANYONE would deny their child this vaccination. My grandad would have given his life for it.


This is your own and still an antidotal family story .

Would you appreciate it had it not been the case and someone assumed wrongly and used your family information - if they where able to use your family for propaganda? Such as an anti vaccination propaganda, assume wrongly your family contributed to their own deaths in some way?

What if someone was not provaccine and took i images or simply made up things about your history to support their agenda for not vaccinating?

What if the situation reverse is that still make it expectable?
Would that be acceptable to you if you knew the facts were otherwise?

 

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Old 04-18-2014, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Old 04-18-2014, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Einemutter - that must be hard to share. What a horrible history to have in your family.

Perhaps the grave used wasn't checked properly for background, perhaps it was (I haven't looked into it enough to form an opinion), but the point it is trying to make is that mass family deaths from diptheria and other vpds were common in the past, and thankfully now are not.

I googled diptheria cemetary to see if I could come up with a better researched example. I found this: http://dianastaresinicdeane.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/lessons-from-a-kansas-graveyard-what-a-1903-outbreak-of-diphtheria-can-teach-us-today/



That should have put my last post with PSM post



Actually knowing vs simply using because you can.

That makes a BIG difference - a mass gave does not always mean disease, lets remember in science you are not to jump to conclusions!

History has shown us there are many reasons several names could appear on a stone, various reasons, mistakes can be made, etc.

 

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Old 04-18-2014, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Einemutter - that must be hard to share. What a horrible history to have in your family.

Perhaps the grave used wasn't checked properly for background, perhaps it was (I haven't looked into it enough to form an opinion), but the point it is trying to make is that mass family deaths from diptheria and other vpds were common in the past, and thankfully now are not.

I googled diptheria cemetary to see if I could come up with a better researched example. I found this: http://dianastaresinicdeane.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/lessons-from-a-kansas-graveyard-what-a-1903-outbreak-of-diphtheria-can-teach-us-today/

 

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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

I think some of the posts of "refutations to anti-vaccine memes" are quite good visualisations of some of the scientific concepts behind vaccination. Not all of them are emotionally targeted.

 

I would still like an answer to that?

 

Why find an group that simply makes/promotes things that are not even linked or show support data also appropriate?

Does shock value trumps over anything close to proven accuracy and/or science? 


 

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Old 04-18-2014, 06:39 AM
 
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Einemutti, why wasn't your aunt given antitoxin for diphtheria? It was used to successfully treat diphtheria since 1894, according to this http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/blog/early-uses-diphtheria-antitoxin-united-states
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Old 04-18-2014, 08:24 AM
 
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I would not think to post that sites link!

 

It's a site I have seen EXTREME inaccurate propaganda posted on. I do not feel it needs more acknowledgement. Perhaps someone else who feels it's expectable will post it. 

 

 

You could use this site to link to it in order to create a different URL:

 

http://www.donotlink.com/


So-called "skeptics" use it, but I think it would come in handy in this forum too especially since it doesn't strengthens a website's position in search engines.

 


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Old 04-18-2014, 09:10 AM
 
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Einemutti, why wasn't your aunt given antitoxin for diphtheria? It was used to successfully treat diphtheria since 1894, according to this http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/blog/early-uses-diphtheria-antitoxin-united-states

 

She may have been. 

 

The link that PSM gave to the Kansas graveyard was from 1903.  They only had time to administer it three of their children, but two still died.  Even today, with ICUs, ventilators, antibiotics and everything else the death rate is 10% for those over 5 years old, and 20 percent for those under five or older than 40.   It is a nasty disease.  It used to be called the "strangling angel" of children. It's a terrible terrible way to die. 


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Old 04-18-2014, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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You could use this site to link to it in order to create a different URL:

 

http://www.donotlink.com/


So-called "skeptics" use it, but I think it would come in handy in this forum too especially since it doesn't strengthens a website's position in search engines.

 

others have no problem with this site - it was post already on here by Teacozy (# 40) that actually was not where I saw it but apparently where it was first posted ??

 

I take issue promoting any site such as this one Teacozy linked who makes things up, like in this case.

There was no link, no source, no facts to back it up.  I also don't see much condonation for those who reposted (without any facts) this and other undocumented things like this by the vaccinating community. It's been done right on here.  

 

 

It does not negate the fact, if this was another group (nothing at all to do with vaccinating) that was used like this it would be considered unacceptable. Vaccine choice seem to be acceptable to go after regardless of those pesky facts.

 

 

Example- EVEN if the facts are 100% correct., it does not make it acceptable to go after deceased people IMO when the end goal is only for propaganda use.

A marker with children (because they enlist more sympathy?) that all died because the parents refused blood transfusions due to religious reason. I can think of parents that had children knowing they had a high percentage of a genetic disposition, still had them and they all died young, etc, none of it IMO is acceptable for another side to take and use as propaganda to push an agenda, especially when FEAR is the only thing you are pushing.


 

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Old 04-18-2014, 09:16 AM
 
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Einemutter - that must be hard to share. What a horrible history to have in your family.

Perhaps the grave used wasn't checked properly for background, perhaps it was (I haven't looked into it enough to form an opinion), but the point it is trying to make is that mass family deaths from diptheria and other vpds were common in the past, and thankfully now are not.

I googled diptheria cemetary to see if I could come up with a better researched example. I found this: http://dianastaresinicdeane.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/lessons-from-a-kansas-graveyard-what-a-1903-outbreak-of-diphtheria-can-teach-us-today/

 

I found these as well: (http://www.boltoncemetery.org.nz/cgi-ddboltonce000/search.cgi?ID=102010&mytemplate=tp2)

 

 

Five children from one family dead in 10 days from diphtheria. 

 

Ironically, this image was posted on Refutations to anti-vaccine memes yesterday.  Thank God we don't need these anymore. 

 


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Old 04-18-2014, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I found these as well: (http://www.boltoncemetery.org.nz/cgi-ddboltonce000/search.cgi?ID=102010&mytemplate=tp2)

 

Five children from one family dead in 10 days from diphtheria. 

 

Ironically, this image was posted on Refutations to anti-vaccine memes yesterday.  Thank God we don't need these anymore. 

 

Having a source/documentation vs not have one is different -isn't it? 

 

So is t's acceptable to take this image(s) you just posted and use it for propaganda with no source listed? 


 

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Old 04-18-2014, 09:30 AM
 
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I've never seen this meme before. I think it is wrong to use a child's gravestone as a meme. 
I've never seen this meme before this thread
I'm really confused by the headstone in general. Why are there so many different dates on it? and why aren't the dates in order? If the dates were in order, I can see it making sense, but the dates aren't in order

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Old 04-18-2014, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I've never seen this meme before. I think it is wrong to use a child's gravestone as a meme. 
I've never seen this meme before this thread
I'm really confused by the headstone in general. Why are there so many different dates on it? and why aren't the dates in order? If the dates were in order, I can see it making sense, but the dates aren't in order

because it is a marker, not a tombstone as I was told (see other posts)

 

the dates (again I was told this) are entry dates not death dates, the marker was place much later, the bodies were reburied 

 

also it is not oncommon (regardless of reason of death) to not even include much of what is on like this stone

a cemetery near me had to replace stones, they made what is called markers and they could nolonger read what was originally on the damaged stones, they put on what they could read, they did not have records since it went back to the 1700's - mistakes get made, a lot

 

mistakes are often made with the spelling of names, this is super common and frankly cost too much to correct, dates are wrong at times too - talk to anyone doing family histories - super common to find huge mistakes on stones


 

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Old 04-18-2014, 09:45 AM
 
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I've never seen this meme before. I think it is wrong to use a child's gravestone as a meme. 
I've never seen this meme before this thread
I'm really confused by the headstone in general. Why are there so many different dates on it? and why aren't the dates in order? If the dates were in order, I can see it making sense, but the dates aren't in order

 

The stone was made after they had all died.  It was common in those days to make one headstone in order to save money.  Likely, whoever was engraving it accidentally forgot to add John at the top and added him later after realizing his mistake.  It would have been too expensive to start over. 


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Old 04-18-2014, 09:48 AM
 
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because it is a marker, not a tombstone as I was told (see other posts)

 

the dates (again I was told this) are entry dates not death dates, the marker was place much later, the bodies were reburied 

 

also it is not oncommon (regardless of reason of death) to not even include much of what is on like this stone

a cemetery near me had to replace stones, they made what is called markers and they could nolonger read what was originally on the damaged stones, they put on what they could read, they did not have records since it went back to the 1700's - mistakes get made, a lot

 

mistakes are often made with the spelling of names, this is super common and frankly cost too much to correct, dates are wrong at times too - talk to anyone doing family histories - super common to find huge mistakes on stones

 

Finally found it.   

 

Here, see this link http://www.pa-roots.com/westmoreland/townships/unity/stvincentad.html

 

They are the dates they died.  

 

"Bridge, Children of J. F. & E. F. Bridge, Wenedelen 1861-1862; Catherine 1858-1865; Maurice 1876-1884; Elizabeth 1874-1884; Thomas 1873-1884; Annie 1867-1884; Ida 1878-1890; Sadie 1882-1890; John 1856-1865; Dennis 1870-1890; Jermiah 1871-1890; Walter 1880-1890" 

 

Parents are listed as "J.F. and E.F. Bridge"  on that link there is an Elizabeth Frances Bridge (1836-1908)  and Jacob F Bridge (1832-1911) 


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Old 04-18-2014, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Finally found it.   

 

Here, see this link http://www.pa-roots.com/westmoreland/townships/unity/stvincentad.html

 

They are the dates they died.  

 

"Bridge, Children of J. F. & E. F. Bridge, Wenedelen 1861-1862; Catherine 1858-1865; Maurice 1876-1884; Elizabeth 1874-1884; Thomas 1873-1884; Annie 1867-1884; Ida 1878-1890; Sadie 1882-1890; John 1856-1865; Dennis 1870-1890; Jermiah 1871-1890; Walter 1880-1890" 

that is a data entry site, so is Ancestry, etc  anyone can add to it - actually there are things on the Bridge family on a few family search sites, it does not make it correct

 

by the way they did have more children, that is not all of them

 

"antidotally" in my family we found a major error on a censes document, it was US govt document and the error was quite wrong! My father is still alive and they do not have his birth year correct.


 

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Old 04-18-2014, 09:58 AM
 
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that is a data entry site, so is Ancestry, etc  anyone can add to it - actually there are things on the Bridge family on a few family search sites, it does not make it correct

 

"antidotally" in my family we found a major error on a censes document, it was US govt document and the error was quite wrong! My father is still alive and they do not have his birth year correct.

 

Right. 

 

So every other name on that site lists the last date as the date they died, except this one.   This one is the anomaly that lists the date their bodies were moved.  In random groups, years apart.  From their tomb inside the 24 foot log cabin.  

 

Alrighty. 


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Old 04-18-2014, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Right. 

 

So every other name on that site lists the last date as the date they died, except this one.   This one is the anomaly that lists the date their bodies were moved.  In random groups, years apart.  From their tomb inside the 24 foot log cabin.  

 

Alrighty. 

NO, that is not what I said.

 

If you want to think all the dates are correct, so be it. I never singled out any date, I simply stated what I was told, the dates on the marker do not reflect the death dates. 


 

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Old 04-18-2014, 10:04 AM
 
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Their ages at time of death were: 20, 19, 12, 10 and 8.

 

It won't let me copy and paste but here is the link from 1900-1902 death statistics.  http://www.nber.org/chapters/c11541.pdf

 

In the 5-14 age group, Diphtheria alone accounted for 14 percent of all deaths.   Death from accidents accounted for only 3% of deaths.  When you add deaths from measles and other VPDs it's pretty clear that the diphtheria/VPD guess is statistically a lot more likely than the accident guess.  

 

That's part of the intrigue in going to old cemeteries.  Wondering and guessing what happened to people and families. People photograph old gravestones in cemeteries as a hobby.  It's history and it's interesting. 

Thanks for posting that link; it was an interesting read. Any quotes here are from that paper.

 

It stated that the Death Registration Area formed in 1900 was the only source of info on children's deaths however it only covered 26% of the pop.  But as they said it is still gives insight into what was going on.

 

So GI diseases and respiratory diseases were among the leading causes of death for 0-14. 

Tuberculosis represented 15% of all adult deaths, adult being 15+ years. However they state;

Quote:
 There is evidence, how- ever, that tuberculosis was severely underestimated as a cause of, or contributor to, child and even infant mortality, because its symptoms in children were less apparent than they were among adults.

So TB cannot be ruled out for this family.

 

I am unaware of any info on this family such as their socio-economic status.  I think it is important to have that snapshot into their life.  Were they rural or urban?

What sort of housing did they have?  As I understand it, crowded housing was one factor in diphtheria.

 

Quote:
 

In addition, prophylaxis via isolation, quarantine, and disinfection was quite effective. " In no infectious disease can so much be accom- plished in the way of prevention as in diphtheria" (Holt 1897:981). 

And I wonder if they were urban, where did they source their milk from?

 

Quote:
Probably of greater importance than water quality for infant and early child mortality is the quality and cleanliness of the milk supply. Milk could and did spread typhoid, scarlet fever, diphtheria, strep throat, and tuberculosis (North 1921). 

I'm guessing families with their own cow to get raw milk were at a greater advantage than those that lived in the towns/cities.

Quote:
 

Progress in improving milk supplies was quite slow in the nineteenth century, perhaps in part because of the sheer technical difficulties of monitoring the supply in its many stages from the birth of a calf to its final consumption by babies and children.

 

It could be just me but based on my experience on visiting old cemeteries, the tombstone in the photo looks in far better shape then you would expect one from 1890 with raised lettering.


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Old 04-18-2014, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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IF several member from one family died all at or around the same time and the area (town, county and state) has documented information on other cases of X disease, how did they miss just this family?

 

The area we are talking about was and is a town, and not just a tiny area/hamlet.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latrobe,_Pennsylvania


 

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Old 04-18-2014, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It could be just me but based on my experience on visiting old cemeteries, the tombstone in the photo looks in far better shape then you would expect one from 1890 with raised lettering.

 

Ah, it's far better vs even those in the early 1900's!  


 

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Old 04-18-2014, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
 

As I understand it, crowded housing was one factor in diphtheria.

 

 

from the internet you simply don't know all of what you are asking (and frankly you would need to know those things!) - you are correct.

 

again, seems odd (only to me here!) with diphtheria, it was only this family at ONLY this time (if you believe they all died at the same time from diphtheria) and no other accounts ANY place of any another families in this area at that time and yes, there are records - a mass death of this number and nothing?


 

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Old 04-18-2014, 10:39 AM
 
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Finally found it.   

 

Here, see this link http://www.pa-roots.com/westmoreland/townships/unity/stvincentad.html

 

They are the dates they died.  

 

"Bridge, Children of J. F. & E. F. Bridge, Wenedelen 1861-1862; Catherine 1858-1865; Maurice 1876-1884; Elizabeth 1874-1884; Thomas 1873-1884; Annie 1867-1884; Ida 1878-1890; Sadie 1882-1890; John 1856-1865; Dennis 1870-1890; Jermiah 1871-1890; Walter 1880-1890" 

 

Parents are listed as "J.F. and E.F. Bridge"  on that link there is an Elizabeth Frances Bridge (1836-1908)  and Jacob F Bridge (1832-1911) 

I just want to point, based on that info these parents had 9 out of 12 children at age 30+.  


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Old 04-18-2014, 10:47 AM
 
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Thanks for posting that link; it was an interesting read. Any quotes here are from that paper.

It stated that the Death Registration Area formed in 1900 was the only source of info on children's deaths however it only covered 26% of the pop.  But as they said it is still gives insight into what was going on.

So GI diseases and respiratory diseases were among the leading causes of death for 0-14. 
Tuberculosis represented 15% of all adult deaths, adult being 15+ years. However they state;
So TB cannot be ruled out for this family.

I am unaware of any info on this family such as their socio-economic status.  I think it is important to have that snapshot into their life.  Were they rural or urban?
What sort of housing did they have?  As I understand it, crowded housing was one factor in diphtheria.

And I wonder if they were urban, where did they source their milk from?

I'm guessing families with their own cow to get raw milk were at a greater advantage than those that lived in the towns/cities.
It could be just me but based on my experience on visiting old cemeteries, the tombstone in the photo looks in far better shape then you would expect one from 1890 with raised lettering.

Regarding the condition of grave markers: according to my hubby (he's a funeral director and spends too much time in cemeteries) the rate at which a headstone deteriorates can be dependent on several factors including location in the cemetery (how exposed to the elements is it or is there a natural shelter by trees, buildings, etc.), material used for the headstone, skill of the person carving the stone, etc. so age cannot be determined by condition alone.
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Old 04-18-2014, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Material of the stones used here in PA also changed as when replacing and at the time it was done.

 

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Old 04-18-2014, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I just want to point, based on that info these parents had 9 out of 12 children at age 30+.  


Let's remember not all info is on the net and not all on the net is accurate either.

Lots of thing are still on paper.

 

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Old 04-18-2014, 11:04 AM
 
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It doesn't make any sense to mark when a body was moved as opposed to when the person actually died. I've heard of doing that in records, but never on a marker/gravestone. Although, I am not up on my cemetery history. 
Why would they only move some bodies at a time? and then more years later?
 

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Old 04-18-2014, 11:07 AM
 
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Let's remember not all info is on the net and not all on the net is accurate either.

Lots of thing are still on paper.

Absolutely. But then how do you account for the information Teacosy was given over the phone from a gentleman that actually works at the cemetery in question.
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Old 04-18-2014, 11:10 AM
 
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Material of the stones used here in PA also changed as when replacing and at the time it was done.

That's certainly possible, but at the same time all stones of the same material don't always age at the same rate. Walk through any old cemetery and the condition of the stones doesn't always correlate to their age. Just because two stones are made of the same material doesn't mean that the quality of the original stone was equal as well. So many variables come into play at this point that you really cannot assume anything.
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Old 04-18-2014, 11:13 AM
 
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Scotland is full of Diphtheria family graves. Because population is small, gravesites are not changed.

 

My auntie's grave is in Germany and after 20 years, it was taken over by someone else.

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