Family dies of Diphtheria! - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-16-2014, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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    Have you seen this, maybe in a meme posted by or on a staunch PRO-vaccine site?

 

The SHOCK, the horror that usually is written about "this stone" with the heading that they ALL died from Diphtheria - a tragic loss for one family!

 

Ever give it any thought - did it make you think you twice about your vaccine choice? 

 

There are thousands of these and other stories too but are they all VPD horror stories?

 

The real answer is NO.

 

 

 

 

 

Just looking at a story posted about this stone makes one think the family suffered from a VPD but it's not even close to being true, it's pure propaganda. Using dead people to instill fear in the unknowing.

 

They were a real family but they didn't die like the memes and propaganda stories want to lead you to believe.

 

This stone has been making the round along with others to elicit fear - its works well on some. Reality is that IF someone cared to even slight look into this they would see it can't be true. The stone in question, the Bridge family is located in St. Vincent's Cemetery  in Latrobe PA, in Westmoreland County. A super simple google search shows the town and the county didn't even have a diphtheria outbreak in the year of the deaths. (ETA- let me also make it clear, the dates listed on the marker are NOT death dates either - they are dates when the entry was made, not when the individual members even died.) Do a bit more research and you will find this is a maker, not even a real tombstone. The bodies are not even located by the marker. When the members of the family died the cemetery was not even in existence. The marker was placed years later, with the dates all added on together. Actually the deaths did not even occur in the same year. 

 

Believe it or not, even in the "past" records were kept. Counties, state agencies and even local health departments DID keep records of disease out breaks. In fact real good records in many cases, some can even be optioned on line.                                                      

Or you can do it the old fashion way and actually look into the records. Cemeteries kept records too.

 

 

 

Years ago people and even whole families did die of what we now call VPD but not everyone did. Human error, accidents that we don't even deal with today where every day occurrences. BUT not all did, many people DID survive the "black death" and when you hear about a year that had a "diphtheria outbreak" or another disease, also know, it didn't happen everyplace to everyone.

 

Next time you are sent a meme, a link to a site or see posted information, maybe it will cause you to think twice about who is behind such propaganda stunts such as this. Spreading fear is nothing new either. 

 

 

Be smart, look into what you are being told/sold. As with diseases, propaganda also has been around for centuries and still is at epidemic numbers!

 

                                                 

       To think a dead family is just so easy to use, would you like this to happen to your family someday?


 

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Old 04-16-2014, 02:20 PM
 
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    Have you seen this, maybe in a meme posted by or on a staunch PRO-vaccine site?

 

The SHOCK, the horror that usually is written about "this stone" with the heading that they ALL died from Diphtheria - a tragic loss for one family!

 

Ever give it any thought - did it make you think you twice about your vaccine choice? 

 

There are thousands of these and other stories too but are they all VPD horror stories?

 

The real answer is NO.

 

 

 

 

 

Just looking at a story posted about this stone makes one think the family suffered from a VPD but it's not even close to being true, it's pure propaganda. Using dead people to instill fear in the unknowing.

 

They were a real family but they didn't die like the memes and propaganda stories want to lead you to believe.

 

This stone has been making the round along with others to elicit fear - its works well on some. Reality is that IF someone cared to even slight look into this they would see it can't be true. The stone in question, the Bridge family is located in St. Vincent's Cemetery  in Latrobe PA, in Westmoreland County. A super simple google search shows the town and the county didn't even have a diphtheria outbreak in the year of the deaths. (ETA- let me also make it clear, the dates listed on the marker are NOT death dates either - they are dates when the entry was made, not when the individual members even died.) Do a bit more research and you will find this is a maker, not even a real tombstone. The bodies are not even located by the marker. When the members of the family died the cemetery was not even in existence. The marker was placed years later, with the dates all added on together. Actually the deaths did not even occur in the same year. 

 

Believe it or not, even in the "past" records were kept. Counties, state agencies and even local health departments DID keep records of disease out breaks. In fact real good records in many cases, some can even be optioned on line.                                                      

Or you can do it the old fashion way and actually look into the records. Cemeteries kept records too.

 

 

 

Years ago people and even whole families did die of what we now call VPD but not everyone did. Human error, accidents that we don't even deal with today where every day occurrences. BUT not all did, many people DID survive the "black death" and when you hear about a year that had a "diphtheria outbreak" or another disease, also know, it didn't happen everyplace to everyone.

 

Next time you are sent a meme, a link to a site or see posted information, maybe it will cause you to think twice about who is behind such propaganda stunts such as this. Spreading fear is nothing new either. 

 

 

Be smart, look into what you are being told/sold. As with diseases, propaganda also has been around for centuries and still is at epidemic numbers!

 

                                                 

       To think a dead family is just so easy to use, would you like this to happen to your family someday?

 

I see a lot of assertions and not a lot of evidence to back them up. 

 

Yes, the gravestone is a marker.  Clearly they did not burry 12 children all in one grave.  At the time, it was too expensive to buy that many individual headstones so the family had a single one made with all the children's names on it years after they died.   Where is your evidence that the dates are not the death dates? 

 

Additionally, there is a lot of evidence that there were diphtheria outbreaks all over PA during those years. 

 

For example, the great diphtheria epidemic of 1884-1885 in Barclay, PA.  Two families, Philip Price and David Smiley, each lost 5 children in that epidemic.   http://www.joycetice.com/booksb/barclay4.htm

 

Here's part of a letter dated 1889-90 that was addressed to Dr. Benjamin Lee, Secretary of the State Board of Health  of Pa. on Diptheria

 

"For the last three or four years, we have experienced some time during the year, an outbreak of diptheria. Our first was followed by upwards of a hundred cases , and many deaths. This time I was unable to curtail in a satisfactory manner either the disposal of the dead, or the running in and out of the neighbors. Our second outbreak was followed by a smaller number of cases, and proportion of deaths, corresponingly less." 

 

Mr. and Mrs. Keffer had 5 children, two of which died from diphtheria in the same very county this picture is from in 1889. http://books.google.com/books?id=ndw_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=diphtheria+westmoreland+county+PA&source=bl&ots=SAW5WfmtG6&sig=UNOj4_q6JzRqWGalPZyfi892OeI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JclOU4eqGoWnyATV14CYCQ&ved=0CGAQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Local News from 1890 in Wellsboro, PA from the months of April-June: 

 

"The many friends of Miss Flora Mosher will regret to learn that she has diphtheria."

 

"Two children of Mr. John W. English aged respectively five and eight years, are alarming sick with diphtheria.  Mr. English resides on Pearl Street above St. Peter’s church."

 

"Mr. and Mrs. John H. English are sorely afflicted by the death of their five year old daughter last Wednesday of diphtheria.  The funeral was held the same day, Rev. Mr. Snyder conducting the service."

 

"Mr. Chauncey Ham, of Stokesdale, has two children sick with diphtheria."

 

http://www.joycetice.com/clippings/1890wa04.htm

 

Monroe County, PA obituaries Jan-March 1890

 

"

O'Brien - Lizzie O'Brien, daughter of Thomas O'Brien, died on Sunday from
   diphtheria, Mr. O'Brien has a large family of small children and nearly all of
   them have been afflicted with the dread disease. 

 

Hendrickson - One week ago last Saturday William Hendrickson buried their
   little girl, and on Thursday of last week a little boy, the only child they had
   left, died from diphtheria.  This is a sad and double bereavement and the family
   has the sympathy of the entire community. 

 

In less than a week, four children have died in our town [East Stroudsburg].  
   LaRUE - Mr. Jos. LaRUE lost two, one dying on Thursday and another on Friday,
   both having diphtheria.  

 

Coslar - Mamie Coslar, daughter of William Coslar, who resides about three
   miles East of Shawnee, died of diphtheria on Saturday and was interred in the
   Brick M. E. Church cemetery on Monday.  We are informed that two other members
   of the family are also afflicted with the same malady.  Mamie was a bright
   little girl of about nine years.  [Eastern Monroe]

 

http://files.usgwarchives.net/pa/monroe/obits/stroudbg-times/1890-1.txt

 

Even more deaths from Diphtheria during 1890 from different parts of PA :

 

"From Pittston: One of the two year old twins, a little boy, of JACOB SHEOR, residing in Frogtown, died yesterday of diphtheria. Three more of his children are sick this morning and it was reported another one was very low." 

 

"In Pittston Jan 6, of diphtheria, JACOB, one year old son of JACOB SHERRER, aged 2 years and 10 months"

 

"The third victim of diphtheria in the household of CYRUS MADDEN, 62 West River St, expired at noon today. His name was SAMUEL MATTHEW MADDEN, aged 3 years and 8 months. WILLIAM JOSEPH, aged 6 years and 8 months, died at 11 pm on the third inst. CLARA AUGUSTA, aged 9 years and 5 months, followed her little brother at midnight of the 5th, and now death claims the last of a trio of happy children who were in good health and spirits but one short week ago." 

 

"From Pittston: THOMAS BERRYMAN, lost his only remaining child, a boy nineteen months old, last evening. The little fellow died of diphtheria, with which he had been suffering for about two weeks. The funeral took place this afternoon from the family residence on Wyoming Street. Mr BERRYMAN has lost both of his children within a week." 

 

There are tons and tons more from these sites, http://www.pagenweb.org/~luzerne/newspaper/jan1-301890.htm

 

Now can we be 100% sure their children that died during 1890 died from diphtheria? No.  But having multiple or even all your children die from a single diphtheria outbreak happened ALL THE TIME during this time period.  When you see a group of 4 children dying in the same year, and then a group of 5 in another year like we do here, that's pretty indicative of some kind of disease outbreak.  There was also the extremely deadly flu pandemic of 1889-1890 that killed millions that could be the culprit.  


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Old 04-16-2014, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I spoke personally to the historian at the cemetery. The cemetery has the records. They also have no evidence of a diphtheria outbreak or any other disease outbreak, they have looked into these claims. I am not the only one who has questioned this. 

I also have spoken to several local historians for the area. I happen to have family from the area.

 

I have family born and traced back from the early 1860's for the state of PA. My great- grandmother was born in 1888 and had siblings born between 1880 and 1894.  I also have family born in PA in 1918 (Spanish flu) born with no issues and NO deaths in over 100 relatives during this time, all in PA. My family also has no record of any deaths from 1860's on ward due to any VPD, in fact none from a disease except for cancer in 1940. 

 

There is no historical record of a diphtheria outbreak even close to this time frame or the area. There are records, they are public too. The state of PA also has them - again, public record.

 

You are incorrect about the burial pertaining to this family- you could contact the cemetery as well. :wink

When the family members of the Bridge family died, the cemetery did not exist, graves (unmarked) were reburied (from another location) years later - not in one grave as you are asserting because the graves were unmarked and they didn't know who was even who. The cemetery has the date the "entry" was made for reburial. Again, they kept records. 

 

You posted quotes from all over PA - do you know where those counties even are in relevance to Latrobe? 

 

I have lived in several counties within PA and have looked into my family history. Diphtheria did not happen all over PA like is asserted- research show this, almost every county has a historical society, plus most have newspaper too, this information is easy to find out - it's public record.          Just because it's on the internet doesn't make it accurate.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

I see a lot of assertions and not a lot of evidence to back them up. 

 

Yes, the gravestone is a marker.  Clearly they did not burry 12 children all in one grave.  At the time, it was too expensive to buy that many individual headstones so the family had a single one made with all the children's names on it years after they died.   Where is your evidence that the dates are not the death dates? 

 

Additionally, there is a lot of evidence that there were diphtheria outbreaks all over PA during those years. 

 

REMOVED due to copyright

 

 

Now can we be 100% sure their children that died during 1890 died from diphtheria? No.  But having multiple or even all your children die from a single diphtheria outbreak happened ALL THE TIME during this time period.  When you see a group of 4 children dying in the same year, and then a group of 5 in another year like we do here, that's pretty indicative of some kind of disease outbreak.  There was also the extremely deadly flu pandemic of 1889-1890 that killed millions that could be the culprit.  


 

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Old 04-16-2014, 03:39 PM
 
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I spoke personally to the historian at the cemetery. The cemetery has the records. They also have no evidence of a diphtheria outbreak or any other disease outbreak, they have looked into these claims. I am not the only one who has questioned this. 

I also have spoken to several local historians for the area. I happen to have family from the area.

 

I have family born and traced back from the early 1860's for the state of PA. My great- grandmother was born in 1888 and had siblings born between 1880 and 1894.  I also have family born in PA in 1918 (Spanish flu) born with no issues and NO deaths in over 100 relatives during this time, all in PA. My family also has no record of any deaths from 1860's on ward due to any VPD, in fact none from a disease except for cancer in 1940. 

 

There is no historical record of a diphtheria outbreak even close to this time frame or the area. There are records, they are public too. The state of PA also has them - again, public record.

 

You are incorrect about the burial pertaining to this family- you could contact the cemetery as well. :wink

When the family members of the Bridge family died, the cemetery did not exist, graves (unmarked) were reburied (from another location) years later - not in one grave as you are asserting because the graves were unmarked and they didn't know who was even who. The cemetery has the date the "entry" was made for reburial. Again, they kept records. 

 

You posted quotes from all over PA - do you know where those counties even are in relevance to Latrobe? 

 

I have lived in several counties within PA and have looked into my family history. Diphtheria did not happen all over PA like is asserted- research show this, almost every county has a historical society, plus most have newspaper too, this information is easy to find out - it's public record.          Just because it's on the internet doesn't make it accurate.

 

I just looked at their website, and it says "For over 200 years, the Saint Vincent Cemetery has been a home and final resting place for Saint Vincent parishioners and monks. "  http://saintvincentcemetery.com/about

 

So it's been around since at least 1814, contrary to your claim that it didn't exist when these children died. 

 

I posted tons of evidence that there were diphtheria outbreaks and deaths all over Pennsylvania during 1890.  People travel, diseases travel.  

 

For instance, there's the case of the O'Marra family who had 8 out of their 9 children die from a single diphtheria outbreak in Kansas in 1903.  Articles at the time said the likely culprit of the outbreak was a cousin who visited them from out of town.  http://dianastaresinicdeane.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/lessons-from-a-kansas-graveyard-what-a-1903-outbreak-of-diphtheria-can-teach-us-today/

 

Is your argument that all these reports of deaths and obituaries from PA in 1890 are made up? That someone took the time to write up hundreds and hundreds of fake deaths, including faking the names, ages, and location of the deceased? That it's part of some mass conspiracy?  Or is your argument that people/diseases cannot travel from county to county? 

 

Your anecdotal evidence that no one from your family that lived in PA died from a VPD is supposed to mean what exactly? That since no one from your family died, that means there were no deaths from disease at all in PA in the 1800s? 

 

Sorry, but "I talked to someone on the phone and they told me so" isn't convincing evidence, especially when the cemetery's own website disputes what you're saying. 


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Old 04-16-2014, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Now can we be 100% sure their children that died during 1890 died from diphtheria? No.  But having multiple or even all your children die from a single diphtheria outbreak happened ALL THE TIME during this time period.  When you see a group of 4 children dying in the same year, and then a group of 5 in another year like we do here, that's pretty indicative of some kind of disease outbreak.  NO - speak to a historian, accidents caused MANY deaths. There was also the extremely deadly flu pandemic of 1889-1890 that killed millions that could be the culprit.  

 

No where does it make it morally expectable to use the deceased for personal propaganda IMO and in that of others.


 

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Old 04-16-2014, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just looked at their website, and it says "For over 200 years, the Saint Vincent Cemetery has been a home and final resting place for Saint Vincent parishioners and monks. "  http://saintvincentcemetery.com/about

 

So it's been around since at least 1814, contrary to your claim that it didn't exist when these children died. 

 

 

NO, you are incorrect.   Nice try.

 

The tombs were reburied. Others too can contact the cemetery. I even happen to know the hours. 


 

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NO, you are incorrect.   Nice try.

 

The tombs were reburied. Others too can contact the cemetery. I even happen to know the hours. 

 

Where's your evidence? Just saying so doesn't make it true. 

 

You said the cemetery didn't exist in 1890, but their own website says it is over 200 years old.   Clearly whoever you talked to was wrong and misinformed, so what else were they wrong about? 


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Old 04-16-2014, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just looked at their website, and it says "For over 200 years, the Saint Vincent Cemetery has been a home and final resting place for Saint Vincent parishioners and monks. "  http://saintvincentcemetery.com/about 

 

So it's been around since at least 1814, contrary to your claim that it didn't exist when these children died. 

 

I posted tons of evidence that there were diphtheria outbreaks and deaths all over Pennsylvania during 1890.  People travel, diseases travel.  

 

For instance, there's the case of the O'Marra family who had 8 out of their 9 children die from a single diphtheria outbreak in Kansas in 1903.  Articles at the time said the likely culprit of the outbreak was a cousin who visited them from out of town.  http://dianastaresinicdeane.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/lessons-from-a-kansas-graveyard-what-a-1903-outbreak-of-diphtheria-can-teach-us-today/  This thread is about PA, not Kansas.

 

Is your argument that all these reports of deaths and obituaries from PA in 1890 are made up? That someone took the time to write up hundreds and hundreds of fake deaths, including faking the names, ages, and location of the deceased? That it's part of some mass conspiracy?  Or is your argument that people/diseases cannot travel from county to county? You simply are way off. I never stated nor asserted any such thing.

 

Your anecdotal evidence that no one from your family that lived in PA died from a VPD is supposed to mean what exactly? That since no one from your family died, that means there were no deaths from disease at all in PA in the 1800s?  Again, you are way off here.

 

Sorry, but "I talked to someone on the phone and they told me so" isn't convincing evidence, especially when the cemetery's own website disputes what you're saying. nice try!

Had you "called" you would have learned that the burial on the property has in fact changed over the years, being the burial grounds means on the property. People where at one time buried within the buildings on the property, later they were reburied in what is NOW the cemetery. This is customary for the area, given the faith. 


 

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Maybe this will better help you understand.

 

With some faiths it use to be customary to bury the dead directly in the church, later many of these tombs where reburied in cemeteries  - it's actually not at all unusual. Small parishes did this all over PA, elsewhere too. This is very common in Europe too. 

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03504a.htm


 

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Whatever the cause(s) of death, that's very, very sad. If it was from diphtheria, why would that affect my vaccine choices 130 years later? I make my choices based on what is best for my family in the present time, in the place where we live.

 

In the present time, in the United States, there is between 0-1 case of diphtheria per year.

 

It's also important to note that diphtheria is treated with antibiotics. Antibiotics did not exist in 1884.

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Where's your evidence? Just saying so doesn't make it true. History of burials is also a good way to understand how and why this was done.

 

You said the cemetery didn't exist in 1890, but their own website says it is over 200 years old. Burial ground is not the same as a "cemetery".   Clearly whoever you talked to was wrong and misinformed, so what else were they wrong about? 

Since I spoke to the person in charge  and also have several emails to back it up. I'm quite confident. ETA- There are also two great books on the country that also are filled with accurate information as well.  :wink 


 

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Whatever the cause(s) of death, that's very, very sad. 

Actually it looks like it all happened at once, it didn't. That is the problem with using markers like this, it's inaccurate. Death dates are not the same as entry dates that where placed on markers years (decades in some cases) much later.

 

It makes it seem like it is one thing when it not.

 

ETA- we tend to forget young (very young) children had to build fires daily, machine age also caused a host of deaths, farming was unsafe, not to mention PA is filled with mines and quarries, etc.

Not far from me many died all on one day from a train derailment  - looking at the tombstones one "could" jump to a VPD, all from the same families - mass trauma was the real cause in that case - looks can be deceiving!

Many things actually are not on the internet yet many people jump to unfound conclusions to fit an agenda. Sad when it effects people who can no longer defend themselves and they become puppets of propaganda. 


 

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I make my choices based on what is best for my family in the present time, in the place where we live.

 

 

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Serenbat, I've never seen the meme. Does it cite any credible evidence, like vital records? (Yea, I'm naive. lol.gif)

I have no idea who runs this blog, but they are claiming that it is not known for certain how all of these children died in clusters. They do, however, mention that there was a diphtheria outbreak in Westmoreland County, PA from about 1890-1895. From the entry on July 22, 2013: http://restinginwestmoreland.blogspot.com/

“I checked for epidemics in the 1800's none are listed for 1884 all though TB, Malaria or Scarlet fever could happen at any time none were listed as significant that year. By now the Bridges had lost 6 children between 10 and 1 year(s) of age at the time of their deaths. A reprieve for 6 years allowed the rest of the family to continue to age. But then came 1890 and the death of 5 more of the children. An 8, a 10, a 12 a 19 and a 20 year old all died in 1890.”

“There was a flu epidemic in 1889 and one of Diphtheria in 1890 that continued through until 1895. Typhoid Fever was a problem in these years, also.”

Contrary to what Teacozy said, cemetery owners are not just “someone on the phone.” They are meticulous archivers who hold a high and intricate level of expertise on local histories. I would love to figure out who runs that Resting in Pennsylvania blog and see if their claim of a diptheria outbreak corroborates with the evidence that the cemetery historian has.

Either way, whoever started circulating the meme is responsible for proving the claim. Have there been any attempts at this?

The whole thing with putting reinterment dates on markers makes family history a frustrating endeavor! Could you link me to the books on the county history? Or PM them to me? Thanks!

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Old 04-16-2014, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am unable where I am at to pull up and link but will do so.

No the meme does not link a source.

These children did not die on the same day and they did not die in 1890, as on the stone.
That date was the year date the information was added, they had all died at different times, not on the same day and in different years.

The marker was made using the 1890 entry journal date, not the individual dearth year dates, and was made and placed at a later time.

You are very correct, these are not just people answering a phone looking up this information, bedsides monks are known for good record keeping.

Stones were and are still expensive, mistakes cost money to fix.

 

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A few more things.

 

The meme that floated around looked like this, but I have seen others post it different ways - *

The site that posted this is known for pushing this type of imagery and with this one is done for a set reason.

And no supporting information is provided, no link to a source, nothing. Just put it out there and hope it sticks, regardless of accuracy.

With other's posting it and assuming wrongly the cause of death, it not only is disrespectful to the family, it is pure propaganda, not "science" about VPD.

 

A few other items if anyone wants to really look into this, besides contacting the ones that really do know - the cemetery at St. Vincent's

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=quEKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA595&lpg=PA595&dq=diphtheria+westmoreland+county+pa&source=bl&ots=fmHSCpT_eJ&sig=w5dhl-9bkJQqXLOkIgIBf1TVV5Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cFfZUrTXJpPLsATng4HgDQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=diphtheria%20westmoreland%20county%20pa&f=false

 

you can directly search for diphtheria and other illness and even family names 

there is no record of a "family" all dying at once (or around the same time) or even mention of the Bridge family 

 

https://archive.org/details/biographicalhist00gres

 

http://www.pagenweb.org/~westmoreland/Cemeteries/Ritter%20Cemetery.htm

 

(this link take time to load) - http://www.johnstowncafe.com/johnstownhistorycountywestmoreland1906_2.pdf

 

this is also a great link with lots of information -

http://books.google.com/books?id=Qm5MAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA41&dq=1890+diphtheria+outbreak+westmoreland+county+pa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sERPU4LfHYS30AHEkYH4CA&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=1890%20diphtheria%20outbreak%20westmoreland%20county%20pa&f=false

 

again, no mention of the Bridge family or any family succumbing to a disease tragedy in any of these above links 

 

The marker (not a tombstone) reflects the date, (January 1, 1890) that was entered into the records when the reburial/moving was occurring. They did not die all on the same day or around on even in the same year. I will not post my personal emails from St. Vincent's but they can be contacted. 

 

some FYI - St. Vincent's isn't some little tiny place either, they have been around for some time, and as pointed out, there is not just some person answering the phone or un-knowledgeable  

http://www.saintvincentarchabbey.org

 

as with the links that Teacozy posted, I will not comment on the one since it's quite clear you need permission to post it with all the copyright mentions the person has, I will say, when you accuse someone of only offering "antidotal"  information and go on to post links of others antidotal blog posts, it really doesn't make much sense, or post pre 2000 blog entires when actual reliable sources exist-IMO

 

There are real sources for information, such as real records from Monroe County PA, they are kept and archived at this place - http://www.monroehistorical.org

Death records for the county are indexed there, and yes, this is "antidotal" and VERY personal too, I know who entered many of them, in fact spent hours and hours doing so, that way my DD. She worked as a docent doing them, but they were all overseen by a degreed historian. 

The counties in PA are still quite small but historical societies do employee real trained, degreed historians and given the numerous faiths in PA, records are very well kept and maintained.

 

With regards to the Bridge Family propaganda, when ever a meme and stories about VPD are just throw out there, there should be accountability and sources linked. When "stories" are passed that start with the EXACT same opening on numerous sources one really should question the accuracy of those too. News reports from 100+ years ago on a family, and sources are stated BUT not quoted, best to really look into things. And lets remember, many diseases in the past we still have NO vaccines for and people did die from them, as well as MANY other non-dieases too. Let's also not forget that pesky other thing (that still afflicts our society) ...... YELLOW journalism, fear sells just as good as it did 100+ years ago! :eyesroll 

 

History, true accurate and researched history can aid in decision making regarding vaccines, inaccurate propaganda from 100 years ago or even today is still propaganda. 

 

There is a awful news story making the round right now of 6 babies found dead in Utah, dates of death unknown, maybe they will end up with one stone, 100+ years from now... is is respectful to jump to conclusions as to their true cause of death to fill a propaganda need? Dead people can't talk, but others do when inaccurate information is used, like in this case to sell and instill fear of VPD disease for a set agenda. 


 

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Old 04-17-2014, 08:40 AM
 
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Ok.  This was really fascinating me so I actually did call the cemetery.   

 

I talked to a man named Michael and this is what he said.   When it was first set up in 1790, it was a tiny building that had a small cemetery behind it.  In 1840, bodies that were buried in the small cemetery were moved to the present day cemetery.  There were never any "indoor tombs".  The church was a tiny room in the house, there would not have been room to keep bodies there.  He said anybody that died after 1840 would have been buried in the new cemetery.  He confirmed that there are many many Bridge family plots there, and that the death dates are the actual years they died, not "entry" dates or dates that they moved the bodies. Again, they didn't move bodies after 1840, which is several decades before these children died. 

 

So you were right they moved bodies, but only from a smaller cemetery and not from tombs, and only ones that were buried from 1790-1840. 

 

724-805-2651 is their number if anyone wants to call, he was very nice. 


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Old 04-17-2014, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok.  This was really fascinating me so I actually did call the cemetery.   

I talked to a man named Michael and this is what he said.   When it was first set up in 1790, it was a tiny school building that had a small cemetery behind it.  In 1840, bodies that were buried in the small cemetery were moved to the present day cemetery.  There were never any "indoor tombs".  The building was a one room tiny school house, there would not have been room to keep bodies there.  He said anybody that died after 1840 would have been buried in the new cemetery.  He confirmed that there are many many Bridge family plots there, and that the death dates are the actual years they died, not "entry" dates or dates that they moved the bodies. Again, they didn't move bodies after 1840, which is several decades before these children died. 


So you were right they moved bodies, but only from a smaller cemetery and not from tombs, and only ones that were buried from 1790-1840. 

724-805-2651 is their number if anyone wants to call, he was very nice. 
The woman who deals directly with the cemetery and the records is in only on a
Wednesday.
Since they have had numerous inquiries she is the one who does know the history.

 

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Old 04-17-2014, 09:08 AM
 
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The woman who deals directly with the cemetery and the records is in only on a
Wednesday.
Since they have had numerous inquiries she is the one who does know the history.

 

Serenbat, you aren't making sense. 

 

If the dates are not death dates, but instead dates their bodies were moved, that would mean they moved one body in 1862, and then three years later moved two more bodies, and then 9 years later moved 4 more bodies, and then 6 years later they moved 5 more?  Do you realize how strange that sounds? 

 

Further, the link you sent me to the website says exactly what the man on the phone said.  It was a teeny tiny log house, there wasn't any room for an "indoor tomb". They used one of the small rooms for services. 

 

"He at once engaged a carpenter to build a house of hewn logs, one and one-half stories high and seventeen feet square, which was known as "Sportsman's Hall," called after the name of the tract itself. This building was to serve as a home for the pastor of the parish for nearly forty years, and additions to the building would increase its length to approximately twenty-four feet. Thus this log house became the first residence of a Catholic pastor in western Pennsylvania, and one of the rooms served as the first church. There were several other structures built on the property: a house for Christian Andrews, who together with his wife Maria, attended to the farm; there were also some barns and stables. But Father Brouwers continued to say Mass each Sunday at Christian Ruffner's house; he traveled the five miles on horseback." 

 

So please tell me where you think they kept all these tombs and bodies in this 24 foot log home?  


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Old 04-17-2014, 09:09 AM
 
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The woman who deals directly with the cemetery and the records is in only on a
Wednesday.
Since they have had numerous inquiries she is the one who does know the history.

Are you saying that the gentleman that Teacosy spoke with (Michael) is wrong? Why would a cemetery emplyee purposely give out incorrect information.
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Old 04-17-2014, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Are you saying that the gentleman that Teacosy spoke with (Michael) is wrong? Why would a cemetery emplyee purposely give out incorrect information.


I happen to know who deals with this she is not a he.

 

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I happen to know who deals with this she is not a he.


Isn't it possible that there is more than one knowledgable person who works for the cemetery? Wouldn't they have access to the same records? You encouraged Teacosy to call the cemetery and when she does you claim she's incorrect because she spoke with the wrong person.
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Old 04-17-2014, 09:56 AM
 
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Just a personal story I remembered after reading this thread. My husband is from an incredibly small town (no stop lights - town isn't even big enough for one). Years ago while we were dating we went for a visit to his grandma and spent a day checking out the tiny town.
We stopped at the town cemetery because we wanted to do some research for his family tree, and met up with one of the caretakers of the grounds. He was a HUGE source of knowledge - could tell you the story of anyone buried there. I learned more from that man about hubby's family than I did from his parents! He said that since he had the honor of caring for so many people's final resting places he considered them family and wanted to know more about them.
My point? Don't assume that someone in a cemetery isn't knowledgable because they aren't the official historian - many times in older cemeteries everyone connected will be a huge wealth of knowledge.
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Old 04-17-2014, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Serenbat, you aren't making sense. 

 

If the dates are not death dates, but instead dates their bodies were moved, that would mean they moved one body in 1862, and then three years later moved two more bodies, and then 9 years later moved 4 more bodies, and then 6 years later they moved 5 more?  Do you realize how strange that sounds? 

 

Further, the link you sent me to the website says exactly what the man on the phone said.  It was a teeny tiny log house, there wasn't any room for an "indoor tomb". They used one of the small rooms for services. 

 

"He at once engaged a carpenter to build a house of hewn logs, one and one-half stories high and seventeen feet square, which was known as "Sportsman's Hall," called after the name of the tract itself. This building was to serve as a home for the pastor of the parish for nearly forty years, and additions to the building would increase its length to approximately twenty-four feet. Thus this log house became the first residence of a Catholic pastor in western Pennsylvania, and one of the rooms served as the first church. There were several other structures built on the property: a house for Christian Andrews, who together with his wife Maria, attended to the farm; there were also some barns and stables. But Father Brouwers continued to say Mass each Sunday at Christian Ruffner's house; he traveled the five miles on horseback." 

 

So please tell me where you think they kept all these tombs and bodies in this 24 foot log home?  

I did not see any link to support why there is no documentation of these deaths? Five members (children) from one family, all die at the same time from diphtheria and no record of this?  

 

Yet there are records of even suspected, unsubstantiated cases to be found, as well as out right confirmed cases. 

How do you account for this?

I assume you also asked when you called about this and have some proof or is that  just an antidotal account?

 

 

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Isn't it possible that there is more than one knowledgable person who works for the cemetery? Wouldn't they have access to the same records? You encouraged Teacosy to call the cemetery and when she does you claim she's incorrect because she spoke with the wrong person.

I would assume if Teacozy spoke to someone at St. Vincent's she also supplied them the link to this, as I have. 

 

Today is a holiday to some, as the next few days are as well. If they wish to reply they are also free to do so.

 

 

Isn't it sad to dishonor the deceased for propaganda? I must be alone here in this sentiment.


 

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Old 04-17-2014, 12:17 PM
 
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I did not see any link to support why there is no documentation of these deaths? Five members (children) from one family, all die at the same time from diphtheria and no record of this?  

 

Where are the sites that are saying, with 100% certainty, that these children died from Diphtheria?  I certainly haven't seen this meme used on any of the blogs I follow.  There was a diphtheria outbreak in the state during 1890, and that disease was famous for nearly wiping out entire families during this time period, so it's a plausible theory. 

 

Yet there are records of even suspected, unsubstantiated cases to be found, as well as out right confirmed cases. 

How do you account for this?

I assume you also asked when you called about this and have some proof or is that  just an antidotal account?

 

Because Pennsylvania didn't have birth and death registration laws until 1906.  It's widely known/accepted that death and birth records were pretty shoddy in the 1800s, especially in small towns. This link goes into it more in depth. 

 

https://www.progenealogists.com/unitedstatesvitalrecords.htm

 

 

I would assume if Teacozy spoke to someone at St. Vincent's she also supplied them the link to this, as I have. 

 

Nope, just called and asked some questions. 

 

Today is a holiday to some, as the next few days are as well. If they wish to reply they are also free to do so.

 

I'd like an answer to my question about where you think they put the bodies in the 24 foot log home?  Since your own link corroborates what Michael from the cemetery said about the property during that time. 

 


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Old 04-17-2014, 12:24 PM
 
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So can ANYBODY here provide credible evidence that these children died of a vaccine-targeted disease? Or shall we concede that it was unfair of this meme's creator to mislead the public into thinking that they did?

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Where are the sites that are saying, with 100% certainty, that these children died from Diphtheria?

actually it was one of your posts in the other section that stated it - diphtheria 

 

also the meme that has been floating around also refers to this as "vaccine" related

 

PA did keep records, most from the 1800's recored their records at the their place of worship, be it a churches, etc and in their family bibles, etc  

 

Nope, just called and asked some questions.              :bgbounce okie dokie!


 

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Old 04-17-2014, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So can ANYBODY here provide credible evidence that these children died of a vaccine-targeted disease? Or shall we concede that it was unfair of this me e's creator to mislead the public into thinking that they did?

I'm going on what I was informed of - no credible evidence that they died from a VPD. It also was not just one person that looked into this. Again, I was also told they did not die at the same time or same year. 

 

There is a wealth of information from PA, dept of health, local, county, etc that do show outbreaks and they are documented - see the links I provide. There is also evidence stone masons goof up! 

 

Simply with this there is no evidence of it. 


 

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actually it was one of your posts in the other section that stated it - diphtheria 

 

also the meme that has been floating around also refers to this as "vaccine" related

 

PA did keep records, most from the 1800's recored their records at the their place of worship, be it a churches, etc and in their family bibles, etc  

 

Nope, just called and asked some questions.              :bgbounce okie dokie!

 

I said the children that died in 1890 may have died from Diphtheria, and as I have already stated, it's a plausible theory.  I certainly didn't say it was a fact.  I still believe it's the likely culprit, but of course we can't be 100% certain. 


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Old 04-17-2014, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I said the children that died in 1890 may have died from Diphtheria, and as I have already stated, it's a plausible theory.  I certainly didn't say it was a fact.  I still believe it's the likely culprit, but of course we can't be 100% certain. 

 

They may have also died from a falling star, it does not make accurate, respectful to say or assume and use it for propaganda to advance a agenda! 


 

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