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#91 of 102 Old 05-02-2014, 05:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post


I can try again: I'm not deliberately insulting anyone. I'm not a shill, and I have no huge hidden agenda. I'm just passionate about the scientific method, and I'm a MDC mom (see my signature) who thinks vaccinating is the right choice for most families. I also think having the right to choose it important.
 

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

I am sensing that you are hurt, and perhaps carrying around baggage from assumptions or unkind words on older threads.  If you are, I oh-so-get it. For my part if I ever called you a shill in the heat of moment, I take it back and apologise.  While I do think shills could very well exist, accusing someone of being one without any evidence of being one is assumptive.  

 

That being said - I suggest you lay down the gauntlet.  My 2 cents.  If you can't then perhaps you do need to stick to the support forums for a bit.  If you really do have evidence non-vaxxers base their decisions on incorrect information (studies please) then you need to bring it.  


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#92 of 102 Old 05-02-2014, 06:46 AM
 
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I agree with Kathy--I thought the majority of non vaccinating parents were educated.

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 "Unvaccinated children tended to be white, to have a mother who was married and had a college degree, to live in a household with an annual income exceeding 75,000 dollar"  2004
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#93 of 102 Old 05-02-2014, 07:50 AM
 
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It's quite possible prosciencemum, you are confusing people who consciously choose not to vaccinate and those that don't show up for appointments.

 

There may be some groups that traditionally have never vaccinated but I doubt they are online.

 

Online I've only seen a few people who have never vaccinated (themselves or their children) and they can articulate their reasons quite well.

Mostly though, it's people (like myself) who did vaccinate but their child became injured and they started questioning and researching and then stopped.

 

But offline, almost all vaccinators that I know (and I'm including my earlier self) vaccinated their children because they implicitly trusted the medical authorities and the prevailing societal thought that "vaccines are safe and effective".  When I first moved to the States I heard a commercial for ECBT and remembering thinking "why would you need to advertise for that?"  It's a given.

 

There is no shortage of pro-vaccine messages on the internet, television, radio, newspapers, print media, medical offices/hospitals, some workplaces.  I'm not sure what you are worried about.


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#94 of 102 Old 05-02-2014, 12:39 PM
 
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It's quite possible prosciencemum, you are confusing people who consciously choose not to vaccinate and those that don't show up for appointments.

 

There may be some groups that traditionally have never vaccinated but I doubt they are online.

 

Online I've only seen a few people who have never vaccinated (themselves or their children) and they can articulate their reasons quite well.

Mostly though, it's people (like myself) who did vaccinate but their child became injured and they started questioning and researching and then stopped.

 

But offline, almost all vaccinators that I know (and I'm including my earlier self) vaccinated their children because they implicitly trusted the medical authorities and the prevailing societal thought that "vaccines are safe and effective".  When I first moved to the States I heard a commercial for ECBT and remembering thinking "why would you need to advertise for that?"  It's a given.

 

There is no shortage of pro-vaccine messages on the internet, television, radio, newspapers, print media, medical offices/hospitals, some workplaces.  I'm not sure what you are worried about.

 

In addition to the excellent points above, in most states, you CANNOT bring your child to daycare, preschool, or school without either a complete vaccination record, or a valid, signed exemption.  Since the vast majority of US parents have no idea that vaccine exemptions even exist (thanks to endless media announcements that your child is not allowed to attend school if unvaccinated, with no mention of exemptions), I don't think there are very many people who fit prosciencemum's assertion that "the vast majority of non-vaxers have not made a conscious decision not to vaccinate."

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#95 of 102 Old 05-02-2014, 01:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
 

It's quite possible prosciencemum, you are confusing people who consciously choose not to vaccinate and those that don't show up for appointments.

 

There may be some groups that traditionally have never vaccinated but I doubt they are online.

 

Online I've only seen a few people who have never vaccinated (themselves or their children) and they can articulate their reasons quite well.

Mostly though, it's people (like myself) who did vaccinate but their child became injured and they started questioning and researching and then stopped.

 

But offline, almost all vaccinators that I know (and I'm including my earlier self) vaccinated their children because they implicitly trusted the medical authorities and the prevailing societal thought that "vaccines are safe and effective".  When I first moved to the States I heard a commercial for ECBT and remembering thinking "why would you need to advertise for that?"  It's a given.

 

There is no shortage of pro-vaccine messages on the internet, television, radio, newspapers, print media, medical offices/hospitals, some workplaces.  I'm not sure what you are worried about.

 

 

What are we really talking about here based on 

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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Kathymuggle - less than 10% of people online post anything. If you google vaccinations MDC threads are high on the list. You may have made an informed choice, but it's my opinion that the majority of non vaxers (not the minority posting here) have not.

 

the "majority" of the .3% -so that would be maybe .2%?? all this for that percentile!?.....  and I'm simply baffled by the BIG assumption that somehow this is based in regards to those only who post online?? grasping at straws and thin ones at that-IMO

 

I have seen NO professional study at all that even comes close to what PSM is assuring here - nothing by the CDC or WHO, etc that states the majority of what .2%? are not informed.

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#96 of 102 Old 05-05-2014, 02:46 AM
 
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Kathymuggle - stumbled across the below on he WHO World Vaccination Week website and thought of this thread.

http://www.who.int/campaigns/immunization-week/2014/event/en/


"A lack of knowledge about vaccination, on the other hand, is one of the key reasons why adults consciously choose not to get vaccinated themselves or to vaccinate their children."

Now we just need to ask the WHO what they base that statement on.

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#97 of 102 Old 05-05-2014, 02:50 AM
 
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I have been upset by posters on here many times, but I getting a thicker skin. I've blocked some members who most often upset me and only read their posts when I feel I can handle it. smile.gif

Kathymuggle - I'm not talking about you. We disagree, but most often (in my opinion) with respect and what I hope is a mutual stance of "let's agree to disagree". smile.gif

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Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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#98 of 102 Old 05-05-2014, 04:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Kathymuggle - stumbled across the below on he WHO World Vaccination Week website and thought of this thread.

http://www.who.int/campaigns/immunization-week/2014/event/en/


"A lack of knowledge about vaccination, on the other hand, is one of the key reasons why adults consciously choose not to get vaccinated themselves or to vaccinate their children."

Now we just need to ask the WHO what they base that statement on.

you seemed to have missed a few things in your quote------here is the whole quote

 

Despite this success, 1 in 5 children are still missing out. In 2012 an estimated 22.6 million infants were not reached with routine immunization services. More than half of these children live in just 3 countries: India, Indonesia and Nigeria. Inadequate supply of vaccines, lack of access to health workers, and insufficient political and financial support account for a large proportion of people who start but don’t finish national immunization schedules. A lack of knowledge about vaccination, on the other hand, is one of the key reasons why adults consciously choose not to get vaccinated themselves or to vaccinate their children.

 

 

 

Children in India, Indonesia and Nigeria somehow connect to MAJORITY on non-vaccers NOT making "informed choices" - some BIG JUMP! IMO and this is connect to old TV shows too - WOW! :eyesroll 


 

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#99 of 102 Old 05-05-2014, 04:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Kathymuggle - stumbled across the below on he WHO World Vaccination Week website and thought of this thread.

http://www.who.int/campaigns/immunization-week/2014/event/en/


"A lack of knowledge about vaccination, on the other hand, is one of the key reasons why adults consciously choose not to get vaccinated themselves or to vaccinate their children."

Now we just need to ask the WHO what they base that statement on.

It might come down to failure to define terms, then.

 

When I say non-vaxxers, I typically mean those from wealthy countries who choose not to vaccinate. I would assume this would be most of the readers, and I know it is virtually all of the posters.

 

If we are discussing things on a world scale, the demographics of who chooses to not vaccinate may change.  

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#100 of 102 Old 05-05-2014, 04:48 AM
 
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It might come down to failure to define terms, then.

 

When I say non-vaxxers, I typically mean those from wealthy countries who choose not to vaccinate. I would assume this would be most of the readers, and I know it is virtually all of the posters.

 

If we are discussing things on a world scale, the demographics of who chooses to not vaccinate may change.  

I was under the impression this was about Western nations as well and old TV shows, not third world countries. headscratch.gif

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#101 of 102 Old 05-05-2014, 07:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Kathymuggle - stumbled across the below on he WHO World Vaccination Week website and thought of this thread.

http://www.who.int/campaigns/immunization-week/2014/event/en/


"A lack of knowledge about vaccination, on the other hand, is one of the key reasons why adults consciously choose not to get vaccinated themselves or to vaccinate their children."

Now we just need to ask the WHO what they base that statement on.

Could it also be that adults weren't really on the vaccine radar (at least here in the US) until recently?  Other than the flu vax, I can't think of any vaccines that were regularly recommended for adults and even the flu recommendation has changed from most adults should do fine skipping it to all should get it to benefit the herd.  Now there's Tdap in pregnancy, zoster for shingles in those over 65, trending towards a bi-annual flu vax for the near future, MMR pre-pregnancy mostly for rubella but with all these measles mumps outbreaks I'm sure those will also be lumped in as a concern especially as the new adult population is made up of those not expose to the wild viruses in childhood, and pneumonia vax.  

 

I'd also venture a guess that many adults choosing not to vax their children were fully vaxxed themselves as children - I know I was.  It wasn't nearly as many as it is today and that was one of my concerns, but not the only one.  My parents vaxxed us fully, but not because they researched it - they vaxxed because they were told to do so.  I started off with a mindset to delay/select for my DD, was pushed into doing some on schedule and then stopped because of reactions.  I stopped vaxxing for myself sometime in my mid to late 20's.  My parents no longer vax themselves because they started to do research after I did (although we've never done the flu shot even while vaxxing).

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#102 of 102 Old 05-05-2014, 02:25 PM
 
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It might come down to failure to define terms, then.

 

When I say non-vaxxers, I typically mean those from wealthy countries who choose not to vaccinate. I would assume this would be most of the readers, and I know it is virtually all of the posters.

 

If we are discussing things on a world scale, the demographics of who chooses to not vaccinate may change.

Interestingly this article popped up on my fb:

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/04/16/lawrence-solomon-the-untold-story-of-measles/

Quote:
According to a survey in Pediatrics, unvaccinated children in the U.S. have a mother who is at least 30 years old, who has at least one college degree and whose household has an annual income of at least $75,000. In the absence of studies showing vaccinated children to be healthier than those unvaccinated, the parents in these educated households have determined that the numbers argue against vaccination.

So in the US at least, NVers are not typically uninformed.

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