Resolved: Old TV shows are not evidence that diseases are "safe" - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Yes, this is inspired by a thread in the "I'm not Vaccinating" forum, since I can't respond as I would like to there.  :)

 

The argument that Carol Brady didn't worry about the kids coming down with the measles and that proves that no one was afraid of it is lost on me, and here's why.  Throughout history, people have faced less-than-ideal situations without gnashing of teeth and wailing, because they really didn't have any other option than to deal with things as they came.  This is not to say these folks wouldn't have been happier and perhaps worried a bit less if they didn't have to cope with measles, but certainly in most cases kids come through it fine and there wasn't any reason to have a nervous breakdown over it.  Some diseases such as polio caused much greater fear, because the risk was greater and the consequences more dire.  The argument that all pro-vaxxers live in terror of measles is a strawman.  Vaccines are a way to lessen risk.  The risk may already be small, but if we have a good way to lessen it further, why would we not do so?  People can and do die of measles.  If no one gets measles, that will no longer happen.  Less risk

 

Another thing to mention...I've heard so many times "when you know better, you do better."  There were lots of things in the 50s, 60s, and 70s that parents didn't worry much about.  No one thought twice about flying down the highway with no seat belts or car seats.  If you did that today, chances are you would be just fine.  And yet, we vigilantly use restraints without fail because that one car ride might be the unlucky one where you get slammed by another car.  The odds are tiny that this will be the case on a given trip, but it's always a possibility so we strap ourselves in to lessen risk.  Vaccines are no different...they, along with highly-engineered car seats and many other developments...all contribute to the long and healthy lives most of us live these days, and whether or not Carol Brady was afraid of the measles doesn't change that fact.

ss834, Imakcerka and teacozy like this.
moderatemom is offline  
#2 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 11:01 AM
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,329
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post

 

 

Another thing to mention...I've heard so many times "when you know better, you do better."  There were lots of things in the 50s, 60s, and 70s that parents didn't worry much about.  No one thought twice about flying down the highway with no seat belts or car seats.  

 

 

 

 

A 60s advertisement for a mat to put in the backseat for your baby to play on: 

 

 

As moderatemom points out, they didn't think this was dangerous in the 60s.  So what is this supposed to prove, exactly?  Carseats aren't important?  The vast majority of babies survived just fine hanging out in the backseat in the good ole days. 


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#3 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 11:10 AM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,711
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Even the 1970s. Family story about a snowy car ride home in which my mother carried baby me in her arms in the front seat. I was just fine.....

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#4 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Even the 1970s. Family story about a snowy car ride home in which my mother carried baby me in her arms in the front seat. I was just fine.....

 

Oh heck yes.  My family drove from Chicago to Florida with my baby sister (6 months old) being held in the front seat, and us 3 older kids (ages 3, 5, and 7) unbelted in the backseat.  We're all alive to tell the story, but can you IMAGINE?

 

Course, my parents were obviously not terrified of it, so it must have been safe!

moderatemom is offline  
#5 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 11:24 AM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,935
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)

I think the point of the thread on INV was that parents and the culture  who lived when the pieces were produced did not stress over certain childhood diseases.  If they stressed over them, they would not have been portrayed lightly in media.  Example:  many people did fear Polio - do we have television shows that lightly or comically depict Polio?  No, we do not.  But we do have shows where chicken pox and the like are common fodder for light television watching.   

 

As per the know better - do better, thing, ack…I am not sure that is always or in general true.  I know I should not eat this doughnut, I am doing it anyways.  

 

When choosing to vaccinate or not vaccinate, better is the crux of the issue.  I am firmly convinced it is an unnecessary risk with some vaccines, diseases and people, and more on the fence on others.  It is all vaccine, individual circumstances and disease dependent.  I am glad I live in a place that respects my right to make this call for my children.  

 

I will continue to laugh at the chicken pox Friends episode and be flipping mad over the Er measles episode.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#6 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

I think the point of the thread on INV was that parents and the culture  who lived when the pieces were produced did not stress over certain childhood diseases.  If they stressed over them, they would not have been portrayed lightly in media.  Example:  many people did fear Polio - do we have television shows that lightly or comically depict Polio?  No, we do not.  But we do have shows where chicken pox and the like are common fodder for light television watching.   

 

As per the know better - do better, thing, ack…I am not sure that is always or in general true.  I know I should not eat this doughnut, I am doing it anyways.  

 

When choosing to vaccinate or not vaccinate, better is the crux of the issue.  I am firmly convinced it is an unnecessary risk with some vaccines, diseases and people, and more on the fence on others.  It is all vaccine, individual circumstances and disease dependent.  I am glad I live in a place that respects my right to make this call for my children.  

 

I will continue to laugh at the chicken pox Friends episode and be flipping mad over the Er measles episode.  

 

Yes, I understand the point was that parents didn't stress over some of these illnesses.  And my point was that there were a lot of things parents didn't stress about, but that's a bad barometer for what was actually dangerous and what wasn't.   And, of course we don't all do what we know is the best thing in every circumstance, I only meant that we do not accept certain levels of risk now that people used to accept without question, probably mostly because they weren't able to mitigate the risk much at the time (there weren't car seats, there weren't vaccines). 

 

Whether or not it's your right to assess risks and choose accordingly isn't the issue,  the issue is, is the pro-vax stance being misrepresented? 

 

I think the chicken pox episode of Friends is funny, too, but it's not AT ALL representative of what it's like when adults get that disease.   I had a friend who had it as an adult, and it was the sickest he's ever been. 

moderatemom is offline  
#7 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 12:35 PM
 
sassyfirechick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,534
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)

Apples to oranges......you're talking about riding in cars without seatbelts, we were discussing disease perception then vs now.  Risk levels for car injuries have not changed much in the last 100 years - just how we interpret those risks and what risks w are willing to take.  I rode in the backs of station wagons unbelted in the 80's, and in the bed of a pick-up truck too!  Also rode on a Harley sans helmet for the 3 years DH had one - all without injury! :wink  Was it a risk?  Absolutely.  One I took and would have accepted responsibility for if something happened (well the bike anyways).  Vaccines?  They carry risks.  So do diseases.  I know there's a lot of fluff out there about how exceedingly rare these vaccine reactions are and I'm pretty sure I should have hit powerball by now if that were the case because according to some your chances at winning the lottery are greater than the chance of an adverse vaccine reaction.

 

What has changed between say Little House on the Prairie era and now? Plumbing, sewage treatment, hygiene, formula, GMO's, SAD.....A lot.  Some good, some not so good, but all of them can affect outcome of even the most benign of illnesses.  There was less media influence 100 years ago.  You didn't have the corner Walgreens putting up 20 variations of a poster for why the flu shot is necessary.  I lived through the era of chicken pox being normal - one kid in school got it, then suddenly you were lining up for play dates hoping to be next.  Now you have parents going into hiding over one case in another state.  Chicken pox has not changed.  Only the perception based on fear.

fruitfulmomma and Mirzam like this.
sassyfirechick is offline  
#8 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 02:40 PM
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,050
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Out of curiosity, Moderate Mom, can you also concede that episodes on shows like ER and Private Practice are NOT proof that measles is an automatic, ebola-like death sentence?

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
Turquesa is offline  
#9 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

Out of curiosity, Moderate Mom, can you also concede that episodes on shows like ER and Private Practice are NOT proof that measles is an automatic, ebola-like death sentence?

 

Sure, I guess...I never saw the Private Practice, and I barely remember the ER episode.  Both of those are dramas, though.  A sitcom like The Brady Bunch is going to have a lighter tone, and a drama like ER is going to, well, be dramatic.  Neither one is meant to reflect reality. 

ss834 and Imakcerka like this.
moderatemom is offline  
#10 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyfirechick View Post
 

Apples to oranges......you're talking about riding in cars without seatbelts, we were discussing disease perception then vs now.  Risk levels for car injuries have not changed much in the last 100 years - just how we interpret those risks and what risks w are willing to take.  I rode in the backs of station wagons unbelted in the 80's, and in the bed of a pick-up truck too!  Also rode on a Harley sans helmet for the 3 years DH had one - all without injury! :wink  Was it a risk?  Absolutely.  One I took and would have accepted responsibility for if something happened (well the bike anyways).  Vaccines?  They carry risks.  So do diseases.  I know there's a lot of fluff out there about how exceedingly rare these vaccine reactions are and I'm pretty sure I should have hit powerball by now if that were the case because according to some your chances at winning the lottery are greater than the chance of an adverse vaccine reaction.

 

What has changed between say Little House on the Prairie era and now? Plumbing, sewage treatment, hygiene, formula, GMO's, SAD.....A lot.  Some good, some not so good, but all of them can affect outcome of even the most benign of illnesses.  There was less media influence 100 years ago.  You didn't have the corner Walgreens putting up 20 variations of a poster for why the flu shot is necessary.  I lived through the era of chicken pox being normal - one kid in school got it, then suddenly you were lining up for play dates hoping to be next.  Now you have parents going into hiding over one case in another state.  Chicken pox has not changed.  Only the perception based on fear.

 

I don't think your last couple sentences are exactly correct...the reason mothers wanted us to get chicken pox was because that was the least risky way to deal with the disease before there were vaccines.  Everyone knew that chicken pox is much worse the older you get, so they wanted us to get it young to have the least possibility of having a bad time with it.  So even then it was about mitigating the risk and weighing one risk against the other.  Yes, there might be some small risk of exposing the kid to it, but it was less risky to do that than to put it off and let them get it when they were old enough to get seriously sick from it. 

ss834 likes this.
moderatemom is offline  
#11 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 

 

Sure, I guess...I never saw the Private Practice, and I barely remember the ER episode.  Both of those are dramas, though.  A sitcom like The Brady Bunch is going to have a lighter tone, and a drama like ER is going to, well, be dramatic.  Neither one is meant to reflect reality. 

 

And really, you have to turn it around on yourself as well.  If you're going to say that ER isn't reflecting true attitudes from the 199s or whenever that episode originally aired, then you can't really claim that The Brady Bunch reflected true attitudes from the 1970s.  Each show is using the situation as a plot device, not as a reflection of real life.  God knows, the Brady Bunch never reflected any reality that I was familiar with.

moderatemom is offline  
#12 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 04:34 PM
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,050
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Oh, I'd argue that both accurately portray *attitudes.* I'd say that the attitudes toward measles have shifted from oh-bummer-get-well-soon to get-vaccinated-or-you'll-die-die-DIE!!!!

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
Turquesa is offline  
#13 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 04:36 PM
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,050
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
I finally saw that ER episode, "A Walk in the Woods." One of the doctors was preaching about how if we stop vaccinating, smallpox will come back! duh.gif
applejuice likes this.

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
Turquesa is offline  
#14 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 05:35 PM
 
Chicharronita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: In the Candyland of my Imagination
Posts: 1,580
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

Out of curiosity, Moderate Mom, can you also concede that episodes on shows like ER and Private Practice are NOT proof that measles is an automatic, ebola-like death sentence?

 

Sure, I guess...I never saw the Private Practice, and I barely remember the ER episode.  Both of those are dramas, though.  A sitcom like The Brady Bunch is going to have a lighter tone, and a drama like ER is going to, well, be dramatic.  Neither one is meant to reflect reality. 

 

Not to mention, the CDC probably wasn't holding the hand of t.v. writers back then, helping them write scripts like they do now with mainstream media.

 

Gateway to Health Communication & Social Marketing Practice

CDC’s Entertainment Education Program provides expert consultation, education and resources for writers and producers who develop scripts with health storylines and information. 

 

The CDC works in partnership with Hollywood, Health & SocietyExternal Web Site Icon (HH&S) at the University of Southern California’s Norman Lear Center to share public health information with storyline creators.

 

At the Hollywood, Health & Society site here's a list of some of the shows the CDC helped with:

 

http://hollywoodhealthandsociety.org/about-us/shows-weve-worked

 

Private Practice and ER are on this list, not surprisingly.

 

Out of curiosity, I asked my parents if their parents flipped out when they got the measles. The answer is no; it wasn't considered a big deal at all. So from now on I'm going to ask everyone in the pre-vaccine generation the same question. I bet I get the same answer. 


 


Chicharronita is offline  
#15 of 102 Old 04-26-2014, 11:01 PM
 
beckybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The Shattered Paradigm
Posts: 1,855
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)

What do you call it when the government directly influences media and television?? What's that term again?


               "Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."

                ~Captain Hammer (j/k, it was Plato)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

beckybird is online now  
#16 of 102 Old 04-27-2014, 01:59 AM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,711
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Perhaps most people didn't bother about measles. I think Roald Dahl probably fell into that group. They didn't worry overly when their daughter got measles. A few days later she was dead from complications. Rare, but undeniably caused by measles.
Imakcerka likes this.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#17 of 102 Old 04-27-2014, 06:22 AM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,935
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Quote:
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Perhaps most people didn't bother about measles. I think Roald Dahl probably fell into that group. They didn't worry overly when their daughter got measles. A few days later she was dead from complications. Rare, but undeniably caused by measles.

The Raggedy Ann Doll became a symbol of non-vaccination, after the creators daughter died (the parents believe) from a complication of smallpox vaccination.  Also rare - but how rare is unknown, and that is scary.  

 

With regards to media, there is always the question of  if media is used to reflect cultural values or shape them.  With regards to the ER measles episode, given there was an ad for a pharmaceutical company right after the episode it was clearly a case of media trying to shape or at least reinforce fears.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#18 of 102 Old 04-27-2014, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicharronita View Post
 

 

Not to mention, the CDC probably wasn't holding the hand of t.v. writers back then, helping them write scripts like they do now with mainstream media.

 

Gateway to Health Communication & Social Marketing Practice

CDC’s Entertainment Education Program provides expert consultation, education and resources for writers and producers who develop scripts with health storylines and information. 

 

The CDC works in partnership with Hollywood, Health & SocietyExternal Web Site Icon (HH&S) at the University of Southern California’s Norman Lear Center to share public health information with storyline creators.

 

At the Hollywood, Health & Society site here's a list of some of the shows the CDC helped with:

 

http://hollywoodhealthandsociety.org/about-us/shows-weve-worked

 

Private Practice and ER are on this list, not surprisingly.

 

Out of curiosity, I asked my parents if their parents flipped out when they got the measles. The answer is no; it wasn't considered a big deal at all. So from now on I'm going to ask everyone in the pre-vaccine generation the same question. I bet I get the same answer. 


 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Perhaps most people didn't bother about measles. I think Roald Dahl probably fell into that group. They didn't worry overly when their daughter got measles. A few days later she was dead from complications. Rare, but undeniably caused by measles.

 

Exactly.  Our kids all have experiences every day that MIGHT cause harm or even death.  Most of these are extremely low-risk, so we don't lay awake at night worrying. . Does that mean any one of us wouldn't welcome a GUARANTEE that they will always be safe, say,  crossing the street?  Why wouldn't we?  And if that happened, one could easily say "our mothers never freaked out about us crossing the street, we took reasonable precautions and it was fine!" 

 

Whether or not vaccines are a bigger risk than measles is (I guess) an open question and something each person can assess for themselves, but that's a separate issue.  My point is that you can't assess how big a risk measles is by how much our parents (or characters on TV) worried about it.

moderatemom is offline  
#19 of 102 Old 04-27-2014, 12:33 PM
 
Chicharronita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: In the Candyland of my Imagination
Posts: 1,580
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:

 

Whether or not vaccines are a bigger risk than measles is (I guess) an open question and something each person can assess for themselves, but that's a separate issue.  

 

Yes and I've chosen not to lose any sleep over this. Thankfully I have an anti-vax doc whom I can consult if I have any concerns. 

 

Quote:
My point is that you can't assess how big a risk measles is by how much our parents (or characters on TV) worried about it.

 

Maybe not, but it's interesting that no one else of that generation who was well-nourished and living in first world countries has come forward with a similar story to Dahl's (that I know of).

applejuice likes this.

Chicharronita is offline  
#20 of 102 Old 04-27-2014, 12:48 PM
 
Chicharronita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: In the Candyland of my Imagination
Posts: 1,580
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Perhaps most people didn't bother about measles. I think Roald Dahl probably fell into that group. They didn't worry overly when their daughter got measles. A few days later she was dead from complications. Rare, but undeniably caused by measles.

 

 

I read this account of what happened to his daughter:

 

Only now she did not want to play games, complaining instead that she had a headache. Roald did his best to distract her. He tried to persuade her to make a monkey out of coloured pipe cleaners. But she was not interested. He noticed also that her fingers, usually so dexterous, were fumbling and imprecise. All she seemed to want to do was sleep. Roald and Pat called their GP, Mervyn Brigstock, who came over in the afternoon. He examined Olivia carefully and, although he agreed that she was strangely lethargic, found nothing wrong. He left half an hour later.

 

 

If there's anything to be learned by this tragedy it's to never trust a doctor's diagnosis, especially if it goes against what you know and feel about your child. 

 


Chicharronita is offline  
#21 of 102 Old 04-28-2014, 07:22 AM
 
samaxtics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 367
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

 

 

A 60s advertisement for a mat to put in the backseat for your baby to play on: 

 

 

 

As moderatemom points out, they didn't think this was dangerous in the 60s.  So what is this supposed to prove, exactly?  Carseats aren't important?  The vast majority of babies survived just fine hanging out in the backseat in the good ole days. 

Way less cars on the roads in the 60's and those cars had less distractions on the inside.  Most of the families I knew had one car only, consequently babies were usually held by the mother as the dad drove.  

applejuice likes this.

"Practically every food you buy in a store for consumption by humans is genetically modified food"
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Astrophysicist/GMO defender
samaxtics is online now  
#22 of 102 Old 04-28-2014, 08:29 AM
 
teacozy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hogwarts
Posts: 1,329
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
 

Way less cars on the roads in the 60's and those cars had less distractions on the inside.  Most of the families I knew had one car only, consequently babies were usually held by the mother as the dad drove.  

 

People in the 60s drove on highways at fast speeds with babies in the backseat.  

 

Surely you don't think thats safe just because they didn't have cell phones or other "distractions" back then? 

Imakcerka likes this.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson 
teacozy is offline  
#23 of 102 Old 04-28-2014, 08:56 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,137
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 

 

Another thing to mention...I've heard so many times "when you know better, you do better."  

 

and I don't see any need to connect car seats and disease and think it's an equal match 

Quote:

Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

People in the 60s drove on highways at fast speeds with babies in the backseat.  

 

Surely you don't think thats safe just because they didn't have cell phones or other "distractions" back then? 

What difference does this really make to vaccines? Today we have different models and accidents still happen AND still children in car seats do die. 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/seatbeltbrief/

http://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/childpassengersafety/

http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/p0204-child-passenger-deaths.html

 

 

If you dissatisfied with old TV shows that depict diseases, easy, turn the channel.

 

If one want their child's immune system to function as it was designed to do, one doesn't vaccinate. If one wants to alter their child's immune system function they introduce vaccines in lieu (hope) that the child does not contract said vaccine disease. Choice just like car seats options are choices in many states made by all types of families.

 

If a child is sick some rest and watch TV - ALL types of TV shows. Let's also remember laws are different in all states as well. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/safetybeltuse

Mirzam and applejuice like this.

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#24 of 102 Old 04-28-2014, 06:05 PM
 
samaxtics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 367
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
 

 

People in the 60s drove on highways at fast speeds with babies in the backseat.  

 

Surely you don't think thats safe just because they didn't have cell phones or other "distractions" back then? 

I'm old enough to remember life before seat belts and carseats.  It's better to have these things obviously.  But driving was different then.  Like I said, less cars on the road.  People didn't pack the kids into the car to go places.  We walked more than we drove.  I asked my mum what they did when they did use the car and she said she sat in the back seat and held us when we were babies.

 

Again, no one in our circles freaked out when their children got the measles, mumps or chickenpox back in those days.  And what also gets left out of the discussion is any benefits that were derived from having these diseases.

applejuice likes this.

"Practically every food you buy in a store for consumption by humans is genetically modified food"
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Astrophysicist/GMO defender
samaxtics is online now  
#25 of 102 Old 04-28-2014, 06:24 PM
 
chickabiddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)

Motor vehicle fatalities were at a high in the early 1970s.

Quote:
The long-term declining trend observed in fatalities since reaching a high in the early 1970s has occurred while significant vehicle and occupant safety regulations and programs were being enacted by NHTSA and the states.  NHTSA-administered behavioral and vehicle safety programs, both in the crashworthiness and crash avoidance areas, and through the issuing of Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards has contributed significantly to the long-term downward trend seen in motor vehicle traffic crash fatalities.

 

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811346.pdf


Carseat-checking (CPST) and WAH mama to a twelve-year-old girl.
chickabiddy is online now  
#26 of 102 Old 04-28-2014, 09:46 PM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)

The early 1970s saw the beginning of the downsizing and manufacturing of more lightweight cars to save gas because of the energy crisis.

 

The gas guzzlers were heavier and safer in a crash.

 

Seat belts and car seats for babies were not required until the early 1980s.

sassyfirechick and samaxtics like this.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
applejuice is offline  
#27 of 102 Old 04-29-2014, 05:28 AM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,935
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)

Oh, I suspect there were more vehicle fatalities in the past.  I also think seatbelts are a good idea.

 

The analogy, though, is pretty stupid, IMHO.

 

You place your child in a seatbelt.  There is NO or almost no risk to that activity in and of itself.  If there is an accident, in a very rare number of cases your child will have been better off without a seatbelt, but in most cases they would have been better off in a seatbelt.

 

Vaccines are different.  Every act of vaccination carries a risk. 

 

Even comparing accidents to disease is fairly silly.  We cannot know ahead of time how bad an accident will be (we can control our own factors, such as speed) but that is about it.  With diseases we do know their typical course.  We know that chicken pox has a 1/100 000 fatality rate in healthy school age children, and a worse fatality rate in adults and the immuno-compromised.  We know the fatality rate overall is 1/40 000.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#28 of 102 Old 04-29-2014, 06:14 AM
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,050
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Not to mention...if my seat belt malfunctions or fails to function, I can sue GM. I don't have to make my case at a Seatbelt Special Claims Court. But since references to seatbelts seem to be a favorite among people arguing for vaccine compliance, let's carry the analogy a step further.

Seat belts and airbags are an added cost to auto manufacturing and really cutting into the bottom line. In fact, there have been lawsuits threatening their ability to continue manufacturing these safety products (hypothetical, work with me here). If they keep getting sued, they're going to have to stop making them. Tough decision, but what are you gonna do? So let's add a surcharge to these products, indemnify the auto manufacturers, and force anyone affected adversely into a government claims court.

Now seatbelts don't seem to fail in safety and effectiveness nearly as often as vaccines, (all the more reason why these analogies are absurd), but it's pretty clear how ridiculous our economy and legal system would look if we applied the vaccine compensation model to all products related to public health and safety.

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
Turquesa is offline  
#29 of 102 Old 04-29-2014, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

All of that is irrelevant, though...the point off my analogy was merely to illustrate that there have been big strides in public health and safety even since the 1970s and 80s.  It's silly to assess the level of risk based on what our parents did and were "afraid" of or what was portrayed in some old movie as no big deal.  I could list out a hundred other things our parents weren't afraid of that we take more precautions about now.  The analogy may never fit perfectly to address every debate point about vaccines, but it does show that we live in a different time with different attitudes, and that's not a measure of whether or not something is safe.

 

The Bradys rode a bike without helmets!  Normal part of life!

The Bradys bounced on a trampoline without a safety net!  No one was worried.

The Brady kids rode in the back of the station wagon without seatbelts!  Just off on a family trip, NBD.

 

I do remember the episode when Bobby kissed a girl with the mumps...the family wasn't happy about that one.  I thought everyone was so anxious to get kids exposed to these things so they could get them over with?

moderatemom is offline  
#30 of 102 Old 04-29-2014, 07:23 AM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)

The Brady Bunch did echo the times though.  Perhaps you weren't around in the 1970s?  Nobody I know was afraid of measles back then; it was considered an uncomfortable nuisance, just like bad colds and intestinal viruses.  


It's funny how some people make such a big deal of the small minority who did have complications from measles, but those very same people either ignore or deny the small minority who have complications from vaccines.

Before anyone tries to say that the number of people who have complications from vaccines is "vanishingly rare," let me remind you that reactions and complications often go unrecognized and unreported, and even the ones that ARE recognized and reported are not tracked and studied. Both the government and the vaccine industry go to great lengths to deny complications and reactions, which astounds and frustrates doctors who observe and report these reactions.  Meanwhile, doctors and laypeople who have not seen such reactions with their own eyes seem to assume that those reporting them must somehow be mistaken, which is a very sad state of affairs.

Taximom5 is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off