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#1 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Don't base your decisions on the advice of those who don't have to deal with the results.

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#2 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 03:07 PM
 
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Truer words were never spoken.

Excellent advice.

 

I always tell people to make the decision that they can live with, because they will!

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#3 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 03:25 PM
 
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Seems like in that case, you can't really ever ask anyone for any advice at all. 

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#4 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 03:41 PM
 
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No.

 

One can pay one or a thousand educated, licensed, practiced persons for advice and counsel, but the final, ultimate decision will lie with the person who will deal with the result of his/her decision.


"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#5 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 03:45 PM
 
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No.

 

One can pay one or a thousand educated, licensed, practiced persons for advice and counsel, but the final, ultimate decision will lie with the person who will deal with the result of his/her decision.

 

That makes very little sense in regards to the OP.  Of course final, ultimate decisions lie with the person who will deal with the result of the decision.  But if you're asking advice, then you're basing that decision on the advice you got (at least in part), or why would you ask? 

 

Seriously, I'm sorry, but the OP really doesn't make sense, either. 

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#6 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 03:51 PM
 
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A person can get advice from several qualified persons. Those persons will not live with the results.

You do not think it makes sense that a person should take responsibility and live with the results of their own decisions?

 

I think you know what the OP means with regard to vaccinations.

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#7 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 04:28 PM
 
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A person can get advice from several qualified persons. Those persons will not live with the results.

You do not think it makes sense that a person should take responsibility and live with the results of their own decisions?

 

I think you know what the OP means with regard to vaccinations.

 

1) Clearly, the qualified persons will not live with the results.  Doesn't mean they aren't giving qualified advice with your best interests at heart.

 

2) I never said it didn't make sense that a person should take responsibility and live with the results of their own decisions.  I said that you might as well not ask anyone's advice if you're not going to use that advice to help you make the decision.

 

3)  I don't think it matters what the OP means in regards to vaccinations, in general I think it's not excellent advice.  I think it's kind of terrible advice, in fact. 

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#8 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 04:30 PM
 
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Don't base your decisions on the advice of those who don't have to deal with the results.

 

Most professionals have to consider their liability when giving advice. But in regards to vaccines, doctors don't.

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#9 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 06:10 PM
 
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Most professionals have to consider their liability when giving advice. But in regards to vaccines, doctors don't.

 

Irrelevant to the OP, as well. 

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#10 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 07:28 PM
 
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Irrelevant to the OP, as well. 

 

How is that irrelevant? If doctors don't have any liability regarding vaccine injury, they don't have to deal with the results.

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#11 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 07:35 PM
 
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How is that irrelevant? If doctors don't have any liability regarding vaccine injury, they don't have to deal with the results.

 

Because that's true of any case where the doctor follows the standard of care, so again the OP is implying that you can't base healthcare decisions on advice from a doctor or other healthcare professional, which is complete hogwash.

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#12 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 07:42 PM
 
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Because that's true of any case where the doctor follows the standard of care, so again the OP is implying that you can't base healthcare decisions on advice from a doctor or other healthcare professional, which is complete hogwash.

Are you implying the opposite - that patients should just do what their doctor says?

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#13 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 07:49 PM
 
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Because that's true of any case where the doctor follows the standard of care, so again the OP is implying that you can't base healthcare decisions on advice from a doctor or other healthcare professional, which is complete hogwash.

 

If doctors had any liability for vaccine injury, do you think they would ignore contraindications, warnings, and precautions in the package inserts, like they routinely do now? Would that ****l be the "standard of care?"

 

(Don't know why the word "****l" is being censored, lol). I've tried several times to type it. But it ends with "ill", and starts with "st."

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#14 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 07:51 PM
 
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Are you implying the opposite - that patients should just do what their doctor says?

 

I'm implying that it's perfectly reasonable to base decisions on the advice your healthcare provider gives you. 

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#15 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 08:01 PM
 
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I thought this was an interesting graphic on decision making.  Note that gathering information is only one step, and that items such as identifying alternatives and consequences are part of the process.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#16 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 08:05 PM
 
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Nice chart.

 

I was thinking something along those lines.  There is a lot of value in seeking advice from a lot of sources.  Additional thoughts come to light from those conversations.  You can do the total opposite of someone's advice, yet have found that their advice was very helpful to you.

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#17 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 08:11 PM
 
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That presumes you can predict the immediate and long-term consequences of the various alternatives without the help of a professional. 

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#18 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 08:24 PM
 
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That presumes you can predict the immediate and long-term consequences of the various alternatives without the help of a professional. 

I have no issues with getting feedback from a professional on what they see as possible short and long term consequences  and how likely they think those possibilities are.  Indeed, I have tried: repeatedly.  A recent conversation:

 

Doctor:  you should consider pertussis vaccine for your child.

 

Me:  is pertussis common around here?  What are the numbers?

 

Doctor:  Well, I think it is more common in Toronto than here, but you should consider it.  I don't have numbers.

 

Me: oh.  okay - well, thanks.

 

A quick glance at the CDC Pink Book will show you that most diseases do not circulate very often.  Thus, most doctors have not seen most of the diseases we vaccinate for.  I do appreciate an experienced doctor when it comes to diseases, but most doctors do not have much hands on experience with regards to vaccine available diseases.  

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There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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#19 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 08:24 PM
 
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That presumes you can predict the immediate and long-term consequences of the various alternatives without the help of a professional. 


I cant even predict the immediate and long-term consequences of the mainstream options WITH the help of a professional. 

 

There comes a time when you realize that people die.  Sometimes accidents happen, sometimes people get really sick.  Sometimes they just get old, or something odd and unexpected happens. No one wants that result, or the result of someone who is maimed or harmed, or caused to suffer.  (And I am referring to from any cause, accident, illness, vaxing or not, etc.)   Taking responsibility for my choices means that I am okay with this outcome.  For me, it means I have put these fears into the hands of my God, and I'm not going to worry about them anymore. 

 

I think the point (forgive me if I am wrong OP) of the original post is to say that it isn't the doctor or whomever who lives with the consequences of those actions.  We need to live clean in our conscience, which is hope is strong, and set by things other than popular opinion.  That may mean making an unpopular choice, and it may mean living with unpleasant results.  There are no guarantees in life, so we need to do what we feel led to do, and stop trying to do it "perfect" by whatever standards are "in" at the time.

 

There are things I trust the professionals for...bone setting comes to mind, or perhaps a dental caries repair.  But I'm not writing anyone a blank check for my life.

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#20 of 54 Old 04-29-2014, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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1) Clearly, the qualified persons will not live with the results.  Doesn't mean they aren't giving qualified advice with your best interests at heart.

 

2) I never said it didn't make sense that a person should take responsibility and live with the results of their own decisions.  I said that you might as well not ask anyone's advice if you're not going to use that advice to help you make the decision.

 

3)  I don't think it matters what the OP means in regards to vaccinations, in general I think it's not excellent advice.  I think it's kind of terrible advice, in fact. 

 

Sounds like your views on the subject aren't exactly...moderate.

 

I think it's fine to take advice from medical doctors about medical issues for which they bear some responsibility if their advice is wrong.  

 

For example:  if I go to my doctor for an infection, and the doctor gives me a prescription for the generic version of a name-brand antibiotic that I've previously had an allergic reaction to and he has already noted that in my chart, but he forgets that I'd had the reaction the last time, the doctor is clearly responsible for any complications I may have.  (Hopefully the pharmacist would catch it, and, in fact, I always double-check any prescriptions I'm given anyway, but that's another story).  If I have a reaction, he has to deal with it.  He has to bear responsibility for my resulting medical bills, and if he continues to make similar errors, he can lose his license.

 

But if I go to my doctor for a check-up, and he recommends a vaccine that is basically the same one I've had bad reactions to in the past, he bears absolutely no responsibility, even if I die in his office from a vaccine reaction.  Because it's  a vaccine, and he would be protected from any liability regarding its administration.  He would not have to deal with the consequences in any way.

 

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#21 of 54 Old 04-30-2014, 09:16 AM
 
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I'm actually kind of the definition of moderate.  And my moderate opinion is that doctors should be held accountable for mistakes, but not for following appropriate protocol.  The OP doesn't differentiate between the two, and is in general too vague and can be applied too widely.   I think it would be foolish to go through life not taking the advice of people who are trained to know more than the rest of us in particular areas because we can't possibly accumulate the knowledge and insight on our own to do so.  Therefore, I don't think the OP is excellent advice. 

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#22 of 54 Old 04-30-2014, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm actually kind of the definition of moderate.  And my moderate opinion is that doctors should be held accountable for mistakes, but not for following appropriate protocol.  The OP doesn't differentiate between the two, and is in general too vague and can be applied too widely.   I think it would be foolish to go through life not taking the advice of people who are trained to know more than the rest of us in particular areas because we can't possibly accumulate the knowledge and insight on our own to do so.  Therefore, I don't think the OP is excellent advice. 

 

So, had you been a young woman, say, in the 1940's or 1950's, no doubt you would have followed your doctor's advice and smoked cigarettes to keep the weight off, because that's what doctors recommended, and you would have fed your baby formula rather than breastfeed, because that's what doctors recommended.  Oh, and you would have taken DES and perhaps thalidomide.  Because that's what doctors recommended.

 

In 1959, you might have been one of the 1,4000,000 who had a tonsillectomy, most of which were completely unnecessary.  http://www.internationalarchivesent.org/conteudo/acervo_eng.asp?id=395

If you had been pregnant in the 1980's, you would have been sternly admonished not gain more than 15 pounds during your pregnancy, even if you were normal weight.  

In the 1990's, pediatricians were directing the mothers of infants to let them "cry it out."  No matter what.

 

Going back a bit further, in the 19th century, you might have been given a hysterectomy to treat "female hysteria."  

 

But you can't possibly accumulate the knowledge and insight on your own to even consider not following your doctor's advice.  You said so, right?

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#23 of 54 Old 04-30-2014, 11:00 AM
 
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So, had you been a young woman, say, in the 1940's or 1950's, no doubt you would have followed your doctor's advice and smoked cigarettes to keep the weight off, because that's what doctors recommended, and you would have fed your baby formula rather than breastfeed, because that's what doctors recommended.  Oh, and you would have taken DES and perhaps thalidomide.  Because that's what doctors recommended.

 

In 1959, you might have been one of the 1,4000,000 who had a tonsillectomy, most of which were completely unnecessary.  http://www.internationalarchivesent.org/conteudo/acervo_eng.asp?id=395

If you had been pregnant in the 1980's, you would have been sternly admonished not gain more than 15 pounds during your pregnancy, even if you were normal weight.  

In the 1990's, pediatricians were directing the mothers of infants to let them "cry it out."  No matter what.

 

Going back a bit further, in the 19th century, you might have been given a hysterectomy to treat "female hysteria."  

 

But you can't possibly accumulate the knowledge and insight on your own to even consider not following your doctor's advice.  You said so, right?

 

Silly Taximom5, doctors only gave bad advice back then. It's different now! :wink 

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"ad·vice
ədˈvīs/
noun
 
guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative."
 
 
 
 
 
 
I have followed recommendation without research when an issue is time sensitive and  when I feel I am completely in over my head and have no desire to learn about a topic.  I am more likely to do it when the risks are small.  
 
 
Vaccine are not typically time sensitive, and the risks are not small. It is not something I would adbidate responsibility on.  (and yes, doing something because anyone says to is an abdication of responsibility).I am determined to make my own choices as I am the one to live with the consequences.  

I do think doctors have a vital role in health care matters, but I do not see their role as decision makers.  That is a fairly paternalistic view.  
 
 
 
 
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#25 of 54 Old 04-30-2014, 12:05 PM
 
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So, had you been a young woman, say, in the 1940's or 1950's, no doubt you would have followed your doctor's advice and smoked cigarettes to keep the weight off, because that's what doctors recommended, and you would have fed your baby formula rather than breastfeed, because that's what doctors recommended.  Oh, and you would have taken DES and perhaps thalidomide.  Because that's what doctors recommended.

 

In 1959, you might have been one of the 1,4000,000 who had a tonsillectomy, most of which were completely unnecessary.  http://www.internationalarchivesent.org/conteudo/acervo_eng.asp?id=395

If you had been pregnant in the 1980's, you would have been sternly admonished not gain more than 15 pounds during your pregnancy, even if you were normal weight.  

In the 1990's, pediatricians were directing the mothers of infants to let them "cry it out."  No matter what.

 

Going back a bit further, in the 19th century, you might have been given a hysterectomy to treat "female hysteria."  

 

But you can't possibly accumulate the knowledge and insight on your own to even consider not following your doctor's advice.  You said so, right?

 

See, this is when these discussions just become ridiculous. 

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#26 of 54 Old 04-30-2014, 12:09 PM
 
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No. It is not ridiculous.  We are following your line of logic to its rightful conclusion. 

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#27 of 54 Old 04-30-2014, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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See, this is when these discussions just become ridiculous. 


Why do you think so?  Do you think it is ridiculous to point out that there have been an enormous number of widely-accepted medical beliefs that were simply wrong?  Is it ridiculous to point out that there has been a long tradition of blindly following the doctors' wrong advice (or in some cases, obeying doctors' wrong orders), with sometimes devastating results?

 

Or is it just ridiculous when someone in the discussion points out a serious error in critical thinking?

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#28 of 54 Old 04-30-2014, 12:27 PM
 
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See, this is when these discussions just become ridiculous. 

 

I don't understand your reasoning in this entire thread. First, you claimed it wasn't relevant when I said doctors don't have any liability regarding vaccines, and now you're saying bad official advice in the past can't be compared to possibly bad advice in the present.

 

I haven't seen any slippery slope arguments in this thread. Those examples Taximom5 gave were mainstream, accepted advice given by doctors in the past. If anyone had mothers who followed their instincts, and did what seemed right, instead of following doctors' advice to take Thalidomide or let their babies cry it out to exhaustion, they should be grateful and give a big thank you to their mothers.

 

Besides the vaccine issue, doctors these days still routinely recommend Tylenol, despite that it does nothing to improve health, and there are now plenty of studies that show it's harmful to children.

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#29 of 54 Old 04-30-2014, 12:51 PM
 
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My own mom was given a prescription for DES while pregnant with me.

 

My own mom never listened to dubious professional advice.

She never filled the prescription.  She gave me the paper with the scrip on it when the reports of cancer, infertility, and reproductive abnormalities were brought to light.

I still have that paper.   Two of the girls I grew up with had hysterectomies in their teens and many suffered from infertility. Of the girls who were able to have children, there are now third generation effects from DES, a drug given to their grandmothers.  Where is the informed consent in that scenario?

In the same mindset but an aside, my next door neighbor had her cancerous thyroid removed at age 15; she had a box of radium put on her thymus gland as a baby to keep it from swelling - we now know that is normal and is what the thymus does in children. What else do we need to learn about the immune system of babies and young children?

A long term, double blind, scientific study, the Dieckmann study at the University of Chicago in the late 40s early 50s, showed that DES was worthless in preventing miscarriage, yet it continued to be prescribed for no other reason than it made $ for someone for another 20-25 years. It was not a recall, it was simply a stop order, like the thimerasol scare 15 yrs ago. Many doctors continued to hand out the rest of their stock of DES to pregnant women until it was all gone. Most doctors told their pregnant patients that it was a vitamin supplement.  DES was also used as a shot into the breasts to inhibit lactation, as the morning after pill, to keep young girls from growing too tall, to fatten up cattle, and for prostate cancer.

 


DES is the wonder drug that you should wonder about.  It was highly recommended by the experts.


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#30 of 54 Old 04-30-2014, 01:34 PM
 
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applejuice,

 

When my mother was pregnant my brother she had asked her doctor about getting a prescription for Thalidomide for her morning sickness.  I don't remember what his reason, but he would not give it to my mother.  Of course she was very thankful later on that he had declined her request.  It's also a good thing that my mother wasn't the type to doctor shop. 


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