Paul Offit thinks parents who don't vaccinate their kids are "evil." - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-06-2014, 11:29 PM
 
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Both tea and I have said we disagree with him.

I get why non vaxers can see him as evil. If you truely believe his recommendations are harming children (possibly your own), what other conclusion would you have.

For his opinions: he thinks non/anti vax messages are harming children......

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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Old 05-07-2014, 04:41 AM
 
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Both tea and I have said we disagree with him.

I get why non vaxers can see him as evil. If you truely believe his recommendations are harming children (possibly your own), what other conclusion would you have.

For his opinions: he thinks non/anti vax messages are harming children......

 

 

There is a difference between disagreeing with someone and condemning the actions that person takes against a group.

 

Like I said, I have NEVER seen a PRO-vaccer condemn what he (Paul Offit or others) has said and is doing, yet post after post about him and others that calls for PRO-mandatory vaccines. IMO those who do this are not disagreeing!

 

 

It's also peculiar way to post in support of someone (or several) that you supposedly disagree with  - how odd?

Odder still when that person (or others) is calling for action to be taken against a group that are in direct violation of this board too!

 

 

 

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Arguments seated in debating the need for vaccine programs, why everyone should vaccinate, how nonvaccinating parents "threaten" herd immunity, how non-vaccinated children are a threat to others, and other such discussions and comments that are very pro-mandatory vaccination are not acceptable and will not be hosted. 

 

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Old 05-07-2014, 05:38 AM
 
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Both tea and I have said we disagree with him.

I get why non vaxers can see him as evil. If you truely believe his recommendations are harming children (possibly your own), what other conclusion would you have.

For his opinions: he thinks non/anti vax messages are harming children......

No.

 

Lots of people recommend vaccines and I do not see all of them them as evil - at all.

 

Offit does see people who are non-vax as evil.  

 

I dilsike offit, but none of my objections to him come down to the fact he "recommends" vaccines.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 05-07-2014, 06:14 AM
 
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I don't think delaying vaccines is evil. I think it can be misguided, and it is often (likely unintentionally) selfish, as it's allowing your children to be protected by the immunity of others. It's a good thing that worlds for the children who cannot be vaccinated.

 

 

 

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No, I don't think not following the vaccine schedule is evil. 

 

Paul Offit isn't just some random pro vaccine parent on an Internet forum, though.  He has sustained attacks for years from non vaxxers.  

 

I do think that threatening to kill him, his children, and wife is evil.   He now has to hire security when making public appearances because of these threats.  

 

Some examples of the kinds of personal attacks/threats that he gets can be seen here.  These are from the NVIC facebook page.  Which moderates their comments, by the way.  http://reasonablehank.com/2014/03/31/death-threats-against-dr-paul-offit-and-family-published-on-nvic-facebook-page/

 

I can't imagine I would have kind things to say about a group that directly threatened to kill me and my children. 

 

 

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Both tea and I have said we disagree with him.

I get why non vaxers can see him as evil. If you truely believe his recommendations are harming children (possibly your own), what other conclusion would you have.

For his opinions: he thinks non/anti vax messages are harming children......

 

This is not how it read to me.  

 

You said you do not think delaying vaccines is evil.  I understand this was in response to a question on delaying vaccines - but you did not state your opinion on selecting or avoiding vaccines.  Do you think those who are selective or non-vax are evil?

 

Tea's was a little better - but was still a little vague sounding.  She also made the point that perhaps Offitt was angry or felt non-vaxxer were evil because he has had death threats.    If (speculative) that is the reason he is so harsh with non-vaxxers then he is not credible.  He is allowing his own baggage to cloud his judgment.  I would also argue that is how prejudice starts:  these African Americans did evil things, therefore all African Americans are evil.


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Old 05-07-2014, 06:44 AM
 
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There is a difference between disagreeing with someone and condemning the actions that person takes against a group.

 

Like I said, I have NEVER seen a PRO-vaccer condemn what he (Paul Offit or others) has said and is doing, yet post after post about him and others that calls for PRO-mandatory vaccines. IMO those who do this are not disagreeing!

 

 

It's also peculiar way to post in support of someone (or several) that you supposedly disagree with  - how odd?

Odder still when that person (or others) is calling for action to be taken against a group that are in direct violation of this board too!

 

 

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1400364/posting-guidelines-for-the-forums

 

This is really frustrating.  Goading and badgering members to respond and discuss an issue and then when they try, you throw the UA in their face.  How charming. 

 

I would like for this to be addressed by the mods.  If it's not a topic we can discuss, then it should be a topic neither side can discuss or bring up in the debate/discussion part of the forum. Period.   It's not right for members to insinuate things about the other side, goad them into responding, make comments like "Why are the Pro vaxxers not answering? hmm?" and then call them out on violating the user agreement when they try.   Either it can be discussed or it can't.  


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Old 05-07-2014, 07:06 AM
 
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 Either it can be discussed or it can't.  

 

 

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This is really frustrating.  Goading and badgering members to respond and discuss an issue and then when they try, you throw the UA in their face.  How charming. 

 

I would like for this to be addressed by the mods.  If it's not a topic we can discuss, then it should be a topic neither side can discuss or bring up in the debate/discussion part of the forum. Period.   It's not right for members to insinuate things about the other side, goad them into responding, make comments like "Why are the Pro vaxxers not answering? hmm?" and then call them out on violating the user agreement when they try.   Either it can be discussed or it can't.  

 

If you think Serenabt is goading, then block or flag her.

 

 Being able to discuss Paul Offitt is crucial.  It is an extremely important topic.  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 05-07-2014, 07:16 AM
 
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This is really frustrating.  Goading and badgering members to respond and discuss an issue and then when they try, you throw the UA in their face.  How charming. 

 

I would like for this to be addressed by the mods.  If it's not a topic we can discuss, then it should be a topic neither side can discuss or bring up in the debate/discussion part of the forum. Period.   It's not right for members to insinuate things about the other side, goad them into responding, make comments like "Why are the Pro vaxxers not answering? hmm?" and then call them out on violating the user agreement when they try.   Either it can be discussed or it can't.  

It was not goading, I stated what I see. I have NEVER seen here or elsewhere any PRO-vaccine person, critic, website, etc that has condemned him and others that call for this.

 

Your views were mentioned by another poster, if you don't want other members to speak for you and state your views, you should address that with them. It was stated that is how you feel. 

I simply replied.

 

I do see this as a violation, promoting people that directly contradict the agreement. You don't see it that way?


 

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Old 05-07-2014, 07:17 AM
 
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If you think Serenabt is goading, then block or flag her.

 

 Being able to discuss Paul Offitt is crucial.  It is an extremely important topic.  

 

Well I think being able to discuss the idea that if too many parents forgo vaccines it threatens herd immunity is extremely important, probably the most important point for a lot of pro vaxxers, but thats apparently now a violation of the UA.  *cue massive flagging of my post*

 

One side is essentially being asked to "discuss" or debate or whatever you want to call this with one hand tied behind their back, while the other side is being allowed to deliberately bring the topic up, goad other members into responding knowing the topic is a violation, and then calling them out/flagging their posts/ linking the UA when they try and respond.

 

Why bring it up here in the discussion forum at all knowing we aren't "allowed" to discuss it here except in an extremely vague way anyway?  If all you guys want is a pat on back and for everyone to tell you how much they hate Paul Offit and how "evil" he is, just do it on the support forum.  


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Old 05-07-2014, 07:39 AM
 
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Well I think being able to discuss the idea that if too many parents forgo vaccines it threatens herd immunity is extremely important, probably the most important point for a lot of pro vaxxers, but thats apparently now a violation of the UA.  *cue massive flagging of my post*

 

You can discuss herd immunity.  It has been discussed countless times. 

 

 

Why bring it up here in the discussion forum at all knowing we aren't "allowed" to discuss it here except in an extremely vague way anyway?  If all you guys want is a pat on back and for everyone to tell you how much they hate Paul Offit and how "evil" he is, just do it on the support forum.  

 

I fail to see what you think you cannot discuss.  The topic:  offitt called non-vaxxers evil.  Do you agree or disagree?  

This is my opinion:  it is easy to say "I disagree with Offit."

 

Here goes:  Offitt is wrong to call non-vaxxers evil.  Easy.  

 

If you fail to say you disagree with him, it is either because you:

-agree with him 

-you are undecided

 

 

I think ALL of this being annoyed with Serenbat and babbling about Megan earlier is deflection so as not to disucss the topic at hand.  

 

ETA:  I do get that stating you agree that non-vaxxers are evil could be construed as an ad hominem attack, if worded incorrectly.  I do have faith that you could word it is such a way that it is not an ad hominem attack, but still discusses the topic. I sometimes think people hide behind the UA to avoid answering questions when it suits them (and often ignore the UA when it doesn't)

 

Ex:  a person says all pro-vaxxers are evil.  I suspect I could say something like the following without breaking the UA:

 

"I do not think all pro-vaxxers are evil.  I do think deliberately misinforming is evil, I also think the concept of children as collateral damage is evil"  


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 05-07-2014, 07:47 AM
 
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This is my opinion:  it is easy to say "I disagree with Offit."

 

Here goes:  Offitt is wrong to call non-vaxxers evil.  Easy.  

 

If you fail to say you disagree with him, it is either because you:

-agree with him 

-you are undecided

 

I think ALL of this being annoyed with Serenbat and babbling about Megan earlier is deflection.  IMHO, you do not want to own up to your beliefs or discuss Paul Offit.  Perhaps reflect on why.  

 

Maybe thats what the OP was about, but we all know these threads derail/go off topic and many posts have been asking our opinion on Paul Offit and his vaccine recommendations, linking to articles and asking our opinion etc.  Not just by Serenbat, either. 

 

Additionally, PSM and I did respond.  It was a direct response to Turquesa's question.  I do not think parents that don't vaccinate are evil.  I don't think parents that selectively vaccinate are evil.  I don't think parents who delay vaccinations are evil. I think they are misguided.  Is that better?  For Pete's sake, you'd think we were being cross examined by attorneys while on trial with the way our answers are nit picked and analyzed on these forums.

 

And no, we really can't discuss herd immunity.  Did you not read the new forum guidelines? We aren't allowed to discuss the idea that not vaccinating threatens herd immunity.  Well...that's basically the whole idea of herd immunity. 


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Old 05-07-2014, 07:57 AM
 
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Why bring it up here in the discussion forum at all knowing we aren't "allowed" to discuss it here except in an extremely vague way anyway?  If all you guys want is a pat on back and for everyone to tell you how much they hate Paul Offit and how "evil" he is, just do it on the support forum.  

We (general "we") spend a lot of time discussing and debating.  Who are we debating with?  Are we debating with people who think it is Ok to call non-vaxxers evil?  Who think non-vaxxers are evil?  These are questions that will not be sorted out on a support forum.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 05-07-2014, 08:00 AM
 
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We (general "we") spend a lot of time discussing and debating.  Who are we debating with?  Are we debating with people who think it is Ok to call non-vaxxers evil?  Who think non-vaxxers are evil?  These are questions that will not be sorted out on a support forum.

 

Not every post or question in this thread has been what I consider unfair questions or goading.  But a lot of them have and I think mods need to address the issue. 


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Old 05-07-2014, 09:41 AM
 
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Maybe thats what the OP was about, but we all know these threads derail/go off topic and many posts have been asking our opinion on Paul Offit and his vaccine recommendations, linking to articles and asking our opinion etc.  Not just by Serenbat, either. 

 

Additionally, PSM and I did respond.  It was a direct response to Turquesa's question.  I do not think parents that don't vaccinate are evil.  I don't think parents that selectively vaccinate are evil.  I don't think parents who delay vaccinations are evil. I think they are misguided.  Is that better?  For Pete's sake, you'd think we were being cross examined by attorneys while on trial with the way our answers are nit picked and analyzed on these forums.

 

And no, we really can't discuss herd immunity.  Did you not read the new forum guidelines? We aren't allowed to discuss the idea that not vaccinating threatens herd immunity.  Well...that's basically the whole idea of herd immunity. 

(Mine bolded)

But how can you even say that?  Do you know every non-vaxxer personally?  Do you know all of the reasons behind each individuals decision to not vax?  Because I think I'm far from misguided. My child has documented vaccine reactions - does that mean I'm misguided for stopping all vaccines even though following her documented reactions I was told by her former pediatrician that suddenly her reactions weren't really that bad and that I should catch her up to date in one visit?  No.  That makes me a concerned parent making an informed decision and doing the best i can for my child.

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Old 05-07-2014, 09:44 AM
 
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I fail to see what you think you cannot discuss.  The topic:  offitt called non-vaxxers evil.  Do you agree or disagree?  

 

If someone here did agree with Offit that non vaxxers were evil do you honestly not think that post would be flagged, removed by the mods, and that person reprimanded or potentially banned? 

 

So once again I wonder what the point of asking this question in the discussion forum is?  There is only one allowable answer, and the members here know that.  I don't like the insinuation that if a member doesn't respond, it's some kind of admission that they agree with Offit.  Maybe most of us just saw this thread for what it was, a Paul Offit attack party.  I don't believe for a minute that the NV posters here really wanted some kind of deep discussion on the matter.  Because, once again, any answer other than saying you disagree with Offit would be flagged into oblivion. 


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Old 05-07-2014, 09:47 AM
 
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So once again I wonder what the point of asking this question in the discussion forum is? 

Seem to be over looking or stepping around one of the issues here - supporting those who feel this, like Offit, etc.

 

Linking post in support of him, and linking posts by others that also show this view point that is in violation.

 

 

ETA- posting about a topic is one thing, posting links that justify a persons reasoning, such as this thread directly is supporting IMO, supporting a topic that is a violation


 

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Old 05-07-2014, 10:00 AM
 
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Seem to be over looking or stepping around one of the issues here - supporting those who feel this, like Offit, etc.

 

 

You've said this before, and I've addressed this before. 

 

You don't have to either A) agree with 100% of what a person says or B) Agree with 0% and think they are a terrible evil person.   There are mountains of grey area in between those two ideas.  I agree with a lot of what Offit says and writes about vaccines.  I don't agree with everything.  That's true for a lot of the bloggers I read as well. 

 

Surely NVers don't agree with 100% of what other NV bloggers/doctors say 100% of the time?  Does that mean you don't agree with anything they say?  I should think not. 


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Old 05-07-2014, 10:04 AM
 
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You've said this before, and I've addressed this before. 

 

You don't have to either A) agree with 100% of what a person says or B) Agree with 0% and think they are a terrible evil person.   There are mountains of grey area in between those two ideas.  I agree with a lot of what Offit says and writes about vaccines.  I don't agree with everything.  That's true for a lot of the bloggers I read as well. 

 

Surely NVers don't agree with 100% of what other NV bloggers/doctors say 100% of the time?  Does that mean you don't agree with anything they say?  I should think not. 

Who is being promoted on here that is a non-vaccer that is in violation of the agreement ?????


 

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Old 05-07-2014, 10:16 AM
 
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Who is being promoted on here that is a non-vaccer that is in violation of the agreement ?????

 

Is this a serious question? 

 

Personally attacking anyone, even non MDC members, is now a violation.  NV blogs linked personally attack people all the time.  Dorit Reiss, Paul Offit, Orac, Emily Willingham etc etc etc. 

 

There would have to be a rule that we virtually cannot link to any outside source if you want the rules that apply to MDC members posting on the forums to also apply to any source linked as well. 


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Old 05-07-2014, 10:27 AM
 
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Is this a serious question? 

 

It certainly is a real question. 

 

WHO? 

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Who is being promoted on here that is a non-vaccer that is in violation of the agreement ?????

 

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Old 05-07-2014, 10:31 AM
 
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No, I don't think not following the vaccine schedule is evil. 

Paul Offit isn't just some random pro vaccine parent on an internet forum, though.  He has sustained attacks for years from non vaxxers.  

I do think that threatening to kill him, his children, and wife is evil.   He now has to hire security when making public appearances because of these threats.  

Some examples of the kinds of personal attacks/threats that he gets can be seen here.  These are from the NVIC facebook page.  Which moderates their comments, by the way.  http://reasonablehank.com/2014/03/31/death-threats-against-dr-paul-offit-and-family-published-on-nvic-facebook-page/

I can't imagine I would have kind things to say about a group that directly threatened to kill me and my children. 

To reiterate, none of those NVIC posts contain threats. If they did, somebody would have contacted law enforcement, not put it up on a hate blog.

To me this indicates the obvious. There were no threats., just a defamation campaign accusing people of threats. If there's any evil going, it's the sheer volume of hatred being leveled against a miniscule demographic of parents. Maybe Megan Heimer was on to something after all.

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Old 05-07-2014, 10:32 AM
 
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 I do not think parents that don't vaccinate are evil.  I don't think parents that selectively vaccinate are evil.  I don't think parents who delay vaccinations are evil. I think they are misguided.  Is that better? 

 

I disagree with misguided, but that is beside the point.  Yes it is better and thanks for clarifying.  


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Old 05-07-2014, 10:37 AM
 
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To reiterate, none of those NVIC posts contain threats. If they did, somebody would have contacted law enforcement, not put it up on a hate blog.

To me this indicates the obvious. There were no threats., just a defamation campaign accusing people of threats. If there's any evil going, it's the sheer volume of hatred being leveled against a miniscule demographic of parents. Maybe Megan Heimer was on to something after all.

 

So you don't consider this facebook message posted on that link that says  "F***ing piece of dead c**t walking his days are f***ing numbered his whole family is in danger" to be a threat?  

 

What would you call that then? 


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Old 05-07-2014, 10:41 AM
 
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So you don't consider this facebook message posted on that link that says  "F***ing piece of dead c**t walking his days are f***ing numbered his whole family is in danger" to be a threat?  

 

What would you call that then? 

you are trying to justify for him, that does not negate his position and his position is a agreement violation 


 

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Old 05-07-2014, 10:45 AM
 
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 I don't like the insinuation that if a member doesn't respond, it's some kind of admission that they agree with Offit.  Maybe most of us just saw this thread for what it was, a Paul Offit attack party.  

This reminds of the book by Barbara Coloroso - the bully, the bullied and the bystander.

 

Bystanders have a role. Bystanders often disagree with the bullying but say nothing for fear of some sort of reprisal.  

 

If you disagree with Offit, you really should (and have, in your case) say something.  

 

We expect children to not be bystanders to bullying and they have a lot more to lose than an anonymous person on a message forum.  


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Old 05-07-2014, 10:56 AM
 
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This reminds of the book by Barbara Coloroso - the bully, the bullied and the bystander.

 

Bystanders have a role. Bystanders often disagree with the bullying but say nothing for fear of some sort of reprisal.  

 

If you disagree with Offit, you really should (and have, in your case) say something.  

 

We expect children to not be bystanders to bullying and they have a lot more to lose than an anonymous person on a message forum.  

 

Then there are situations where one side is responding to being called evil by calling the other side evil, and it's unclear who the bully is and who is the bullied, so people decide not to engage.

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Old 05-07-2014, 10:57 AM
 
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This reminds of the book by Barbara Coloroso - the bully, the bullied and the bystander.

 

Bystanders have a role. Bystanders often disagree with the bullying but say nothing for fear of some sort of reprisal.  

 

If you disagree with Offit, you really should (and have, in your case) say something.  

 

We expect children to not be bystanders to bullying and they have a lot more to lose than an anonymous person on a message forum.  

throughout history there have been doctors that "society" has viewed as evil

 

They may have personal traits some find might find appealing, but over all society viewing their extremist POV or certain actions take it ALL into consideration when judging them.

All their "good" things go by the wayside.....because the really "bad" things they did and say in the end make them be viewed as EVIL.

Those who support them often find they are on the wrong side and in some cases they are held in the same regards because they kept silent.


 

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Old 05-07-2014, 11:00 AM
 
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So you don't consider this facebook message posted on that link that says  "F***ing piece of dead c**t walking his days are f***ing numbered his whole family is in danger" to be a threat?  

What would you call that then? 

I missed this in a long, long stream of non-threats that this blogger was accusing of being theats. He even used the word "threats" in the plural. He underlines in red things that aren't even close to threats.

Where did this threatening post come from? Do you take it seriously enough to do the right thing and call the authorities? Or is it just fodder to exploit in order to make Offit look like a martyr?

Finally, please go to your favorite search engine and enter "red herring." Because that's exactly what you are doing when you bring this up in a thread about a different topic. It's my fault for indulging it in the first place, I suppose.

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Old 05-07-2014, 11:00 AM
 
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Then there are situations where one side is responding to being called evil by calling the other side evil, and it's unclear who the bully is and who is the bullied, so people decide not to engage.

And there are times when others try to justify those people's actions and view them as just!

 

That doesn't make it right, correct or moral does it?


 

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Old 05-07-2014, 11:03 AM
 
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Then there are situations where one side is responding to being called evil by calling the other side evil, and it's unclear who the bully is and who is the bullied, so people decide not to engage.

I don't think anyone is calling an entire side evil, just pointing out specific *actions* that are evil.

Two exceptions may be Tea's post about "a group of people" waging threats....and Offit calling non-compliant parents evil. It would be nice if those pro-vaxxers who politely disagree with him would request that he take the hate rhetoric down a notch or two, but I won't hold my breath.

I smell a lock and a nastigram coming, so I think I'll bow out.

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Old 05-07-2014, 11:11 AM
 
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Finally, please go to your favorite search engine and enter "red herring." Because that's exactly what you are doing when you bring this up in a thread about a different topic. It's my fault for indulging it in the first place, I suppose.

 

I don't know if "red herring" applies here. Offit claimed he/his side is called "evil"(arguably, he is among the "doctors" and "pharmaceutical companies"). Teacozy provided evidence that supports his claim that he's a victim of some namecalling. That's the claim that leads to his retaliation where he calls those namecallers in question "evil" themselves. So IMO her addition of that evidence was totally appropriate.

 

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I don't think anyone is calling an entire side evil, just pointing out *actions* that are evil.

Two exceptions may be Tea's post about "a group of people" waging threats....and Offit calling non-compliant people evil.

I smell a lock and a nastigram coming, so I think I'll bow out.

 

Hmm. I'm responding to the original quote in the "Invisible Threat" trailer.

 

Paul Offit says: "They always make this... claim that the doctors are evil, the pharmaceutical companies are evil. Frankly, I think that they're evil."

 

In that context "they" being people who make that claim, IMO, not necessarily non-vaxxing parents.

Which is exactly why I think not engaging in this fight between two sides isn't equivalent to not engaging in a bullying situation.

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