Selfishness? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 122 Old 05-13-2014, 02:00 PM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,102
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 

 

No, not really...I think you are not understanding the concept of "civic duty."  See, I believe that certain behaviors are in everyone's best interests, and the "civic duty" part is where everyone who can participate is participating for the good of the group.  Going back to the taxes analogy....I'm not JUST paying taxes to help others, I pay them so I have police protection and public schools and roads to drive on.  The "civic duty" part is that it only works if as many people as possible participate.   I am part of a system where I pay in and I benefit, and other people benefit as well.  I WANT herd immunity to protect my children, just like I WANT a good public school system and for the fire department to come if my house is burning down.  I ALSO want everyone else's children to have a school to go to and police and fire protection.  So, I'm willing to put a bit of my own finances on the line to pay for those things.  This is why I vaccinate my chlidren, as well.  Vaccinating is like "paying into" a system that creates herd immunity, and I'm willing to take a small risk for that benefit.  My point was it's not the same as, say, charity, where you just give and get no tangible benefit.  This doesn't mean it's not a civic good or a civic duty. 

I go by the legal definition of "civic duty", and NO I do not hold an allegiance to the government. They are not returning it for me.

 

And I don't see the connect at all with taxes and vaccines - not even close!

applejuice likes this.

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is online now  
#62 of 122 Old 05-13-2014, 02:13 PM
 
rednightingale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 

 

What you're forgetting or leaving out here is that none of us who vaccinate believe we're taking on this risk (or our children are) solely for the good of others.  I'm not doing it to be altruistic...I do it because I believe that the risk of not vaccinating (or losing herd immunity) is greater than the risk of vaccinating.  We're doing it for our children, and if everyone whose child can be vaccinated does the same, then we also have the bonus of protecting the children who can't. 

 



Well, on that last sentence, not really.

Did you hear about this one? http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/05/13/virginia-students-wear-protective-masks-to-prom-to-support-friend-with-cancer/

A Virginia teen was instructed to wear a mask to prom because he is immuno-compromised with cancer. The solidarity that his friends and peers showed him by wearing their own masks to prom was selfless and heroic.

At the same time, the take-away message is pretty clear: A fully vaccinated population is not going to protect the immuno-compromised. Even if every single teen in that high school were up-to-date on the recommended vaccines, that cancer survivor would still have to wear a mask to prom.

THANK YOU! Finally someone is pointing out what every educated parent of an immunocompromised child knows: it's not just (or even principally) VPDs that put an immunocompromised person at risk. It's *everything*! That "little" cold that you ignore while you go about your day as usual; that stomach flu that your kid spread around the classroom because you weren't interested enough in  "civic duty" to keep them home long enough to minimize transmission... all of it. My kid caught *those* things when he was immunocompromised. And those things caused complications that could have killed him. Why do we never discuss the "civic duty" that we have to keep our infections to ourselves - why is it always the "civic duty" to vaccinate? This aspect of the debate really hits a nerve with me.

rednightingale is offline  
#63 of 122 Old 05-13-2014, 02:17 PM
 
rednightingale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

Hmm. After reading over my last post, I realized that I don't feel like civic duty is the correct term to describe all of this health-related stuff. It doesn't sound quite right.

applejuice and serenbat like this.
rednightingale is offline  
#64 of 122 Old 05-13-2014, 02:27 PM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,102
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post
 

Hmm. After reading over my last post, I realized that I don't feel like civic duty is the correct term to describe all of this health-related stuff. It doesn't sound quite right.

IMO- "civic duty" means a list of things, namely accountability!

 

When you pay taxes to a government, they area accountable as to where and how that money is used (as in a two way agreement)- want to know something, public right to know.

 

Lumping in vaccines, first the government does not make them, second, the government does not control them, third they are not accountable for paying for them (only indirectly and only in certain circumstances)) or for paying for damaged children, thus I do not see them as "the same".

 

I can not get government accountability in many regards to vaccines (studies, VARES sealed cases, etc). Paying taxes a citizen can petition for information unlike with vaccines. The government regulates many products that does not mean products are civil duties and vaccines are products.

 

I do many things as a citizen that benefit my society. Many things are not required and many things have nothing to do with civil duty.

applejuice and BeckyBird like this.

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is online now  
#65 of 122 Old 05-13-2014, 02:29 PM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,102
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post
 

Hmm. After reading over my last post, I realized that I don't feel like civic duty is the correct term to describe all of this health-related stuff. It doesn't sound quite right.

I completely agree! :clap 

applejuice likes this.

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is online now  
#66 of 122 Old 05-13-2014, 02:46 PM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post
 

 Why do we never discuss the "civic duty" that we have to keep our infections to ourselves - why is it always the "civic duty" to vaccinate? This aspect of the debate really hits a nerve with me.

 

 You don't have to pick one or the other. You can vaccinate and also be responsible about personal hygiene and trying to keep your germs to yourself when you have a minor cold etc. In my family we do both, both to keep ourselves healthy (frequent hand washing prevents us from spreading our germs, and also means we are less likely to introduce germs from our surroundings into  our bodies). 

 

Kathy- I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't see any evidence that germs entering the body via vaccination is any different to other methods of entry (e.g. scrapes cuts). I agree you might get a stronger immune response from actually catching a VPD than from the vaccine (most of the symptoms of the disease being an immune response), but at the cost of being sick that's not worth it to me. I'll take the lower risk of the vaccine and also good immunity to the diseases. :) 

Poogles0213 and ss834 like this.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#67 of 122 Old 05-13-2014, 02:59 PM
 
rednightingale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

prosciencemom - I agree with you. I apologize; my comment did unfairly imply that those who vaccinate aren't as scrupulous about not transmitting other illnesses, and that was unfair. I just know a lot of parents who really don't care about transmitting things that they consider to be minor. I would love it if people would understand that "minor" illnesses really aren't for the immunocompromised, and stop using those individuals, such as my son, to try to manipulate others into making choices that the other party is clearly uncomfortable making.

rednightingale is offline  
#68 of 122 Old 05-13-2014, 10:01 PM
 
prosciencemum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,706
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)

rednightingale - no problem. I hope your son stays clear of nasty germs of the VP kind and otherwise. :) 

Poogles0213 likes this.

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

prosciencemum is offline  
#69 of 122 Old 05-13-2014, 10:21 PM
 
rednightingale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post
 

rednightingale - no problem. I hope your son stays clear of nasty germs of the VP kind and otherwise. :) 

Well this is a downer, but my son actually passed away almost three years ago; he had a very aggressive brain tumor. He did pass from the cancer, however, not from a secondary infection. I just realized that the way that I worded that post also made it sound like he didn't die, when what I should have said was that he developed complications that could have killed him (most notably a very minor cold somehow caused him to react to an induction anesthesia that he was given for a "routine" surgery and he ended up on a ventilator as a result for several days), but in the end it wasn't those complications that caused his death. It was the cancer. So I guess a person could argue that it didn't matter, but when we were told that there had been a complication with his surgery and he experienced flash pulmonary edema and would be on a vent, it was pretty terrifying. And we didn't know that he was eventually going to die at that point, so we felt like we were brushing too close to death for comfort. All from what really seemed to be a minor cold. I knew other kids on the immunocompromised unit who also caught different fairly "routine" illnesses who developed serious complications. It was rough all around. 

applejuice and BeckyBird like this.
rednightingale is offline  
#70 of 122 Old 05-13-2014, 11:05 PM
 
Taximom5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,099
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

kathymuggle - I do understand this view exists, but it still confuses me. Why is the tiny risk of vaccination for these diseases more worrying than the larger (although still small) risk of serious complications from them actually getting sick? 

The body does not discriminate between viruses and bacteria introduced in cuts, and/or through the eyes/mouth and those introduced via an injection. So I have to assume this is all about being scared about the effect of the ingredients in vaccines other than the weakened or killed virus/bacterial toxoids? 

(Sigh) we've been over this SO many times.

For families like mine--and apparently we number far more than you think--the risk of vaccination is not tiny. I thought it was, and I was wrong. Several times. My kids all had severe adverse effects from vaccines. They've never had even the slightest complication from disease, including vaccine-available diseases that they've had, like chicken pox and h1n1.

The experts admit that they don't know what exactly the risks are; they also admit that they don't fully understand autoimmunity, nor exactly why vaccination may trigger it in some people but not in others.

So I think it's a very grave error (not to mention offensive) to talk about the "tiny" risk of vaccine reaction.

Of course, if you ever receive a vaccine that triggers your body to attack itself, we can all congratulate you for "taking one for the herd," if you like.
Taximom5 is online now  
#71 of 122 Old 05-14-2014, 04:43 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,630
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post
 

Well this is a downer, but my son actually passed away almost three years ago; he had a very aggressive brain tumor. 

:candle


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#72 of 122 Old 05-14-2014, 05:33 AM
 
samaxtics's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 338
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)

So sorry for your loss rednightingale.

applejuice and kathymuggle like this.
samaxtics is online now  
#73 of 122 Old 05-14-2014, 07:17 AM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

I am sorry. No one should ever live to see anything like that.

applejuice is offline  
#74 of 122 Old 05-14-2014, 07:51 AM
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I"m so sorry, rednightingale.  :(

moderatemom is online now  
#75 of 122 Old 05-14-2014, 08:06 AM
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
 

I go by the legal definition of "civic duty", and NO I do not hold an allegiance to the government. They are not returning it for me.

 

And I don't see the connect at all with taxes and vaccines - not even close!

 

I'm using "civic duty"  I guess in a more colloquial sense.  My feelings about it have nothing to do with whether the government wants me to do it, or whether or not I feel an "allegiance" to the government.  It's...I don't know what a better term would be.  Social contract, maybe?  The taxes analogy is the best one I could think of where people who can't "pay in" still get to benefit from it.  That is, it's a good for everyone in the population.  I'm sorry if this analogy doesn't work for you for whatever details you think don't apply (maybe because you think I'm implying that people should go to jail for vaccine avoidance as they do for tax avoidance?  I'm not trying to imply that at all.)


 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taximom5

(Sigh) we've been over this SO many times.

For families like mine--and apparently we number far more than you think--the risk of vaccination is not tiny. I thought it was, and I was wrong. Several times. My kids all had severe adverse effects from vaccines. They've never had even the slightest complication from disease, including vaccine-available diseases that they've had, like chicken pox and h1n1.

The experts admit that they don't know what exactly the risks are; they also admit that they don't fully understand autoimmunity, nor exactly why vaccination may trigger it in some people but not in others.

So I think it's a very grave error (not to mention offensive) to talk about the "tiny" risk of vaccine reaction.

Of course, if you ever receive a vaccine that triggers your body to attack itself, we can all congratulate you for "taking one for the herd," if you like.

 

Maybe the reason it's been gone over so many times is because we have different opinions about how tiny the risk is.  First of all, prosciencemum stated that it's her personal belief based on what she knows, that the risk is tiny for her children.  You may believe differently, but that doesn't mean her belief is wrong.  Second, she is thinking about the risk across the entire population (not knowing her family's specific risk), which is generally how risk assessment is done.  If we didn't do things because our personal risk may be higher than the general popluation's, then we couldn't ever do anything, because that can always be true.  We have no way of knowing, and we think, "what is the risk of my family being the one that is prone to the reaction?"  That is the risk she is referring to. 

Poogles0213 likes this.
moderatemom is online now  
#76 of 122 Old 05-14-2014, 08:18 AM
 
rednightingale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

Thank you for the kind thoughts; I do appreciate it. I don't want to shut down the conversation on this thread (or any other, for that matter) by sharing that. I just want to present another perspective for consideration.

 

I don't think that "selfishness" is the right word to describe making choices that you feel are in the best interest of your child. The more complex the issue, the harder it is to reduce it to a single concept like selfishness. Having been through what I have with my son, I have a very different take on things. Having lost a child, the last thing that I wish is for someone else to have to go through that. However, there were other serious issues that we had to deal with beyond just life and death. What about quality of life? It's something that is also not discussed as extensively as I feel it should be. We have so many wonderful technologies and treatments to prolong life, and it's happened relatively quickly, that we often neglect to critically examine whether prolonging life with a severely reduced quality of life is desirable. 

 

What I have gathered from reading so many posts here on the vaccine boards is that a lot of non-vax families and sel/del-vax families are very concerned about quality of life for their children. I believe that to be a very important consideration, and I don't think it's a selfish thing to want your child to have the best quality of life possible. I see some of that on the VOS side also, but more often when debates get going, the point that is constantly being brought up is death: someone could die from this VPD. Absolutely that's true, and it's true that they could develop complications from that VPD and not die, and that could destroy their quality of life too. That's why I don't see this as a black and white issue, but rather one that needs to be carefully weighed. I don't particularly care for the harsh criticism of other people's thought processes (including labeling them as selfish), because we all have to live with the consequences of our decisions, and only we can know what we can and cannot live with. I could not live with deciding to give my son extensive radiation treatment to his whole brain and spine because the chances of it destroying a good portion of his quality of life as too high. As a result, he died from that. It is only recently that I've stopped second-guessing that decision. I am confident that we made the right choice for our son. And yes, he died, possibly as result of that choice. But regardless, I am confident that we made the right choice for him because I knew him so intimately. What I hope for parents is that they have the same degree of certainty when they make medical decisions, including vaccination decisions, for themselves and their children. 

 

I don't want to see parents lose the ability to make important medical decisions for their children. I see the loss of vaccine choice as part of that picture, and it worries me. I was terrified that my son would be taken from me if I refused treatment. We were told by his team that because of the nature of his cancer (very rare, poor prognosis, very aggressive) that any decision regarding his care would be considered valid and respected. I don't want to see that lost from medical decision-making. I don't want to see parents edged out of the picture because the results of that could be very ugly. People need to be able to feel ownership and empowerment in their decisions, otherwise living with negative outcomes could be absolutely unbearable.

rednightingale is offline  
#77 of 122 Old 05-14-2014, 08:35 AM
 
sassyfirechick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,517
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)

:Hug

sassyfirechick is online now  
#78 of 122 Old 05-14-2014, 08:39 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,630
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post
 

Thank you for the kind thoughts; I do appreciate it. I don't want to shut down the conversation on this thread (or any other, for that matter) by sharing that. I just want to present another perspective for consideration.

 

I don't think that "selfishness" is the right word to describe making choices that you feel are in the best interest of your child. The more complex the issue, the harder it is to reduce it to a single concept like selfishness. Having been through what I have with my son, I have a very different take on things. Having lost a child, the last thing that I wish is for someone else to have to go through that. However, there were other serious issues that we had to deal with beyond just life and death. What about quality of life? It's something that is also not discussed as extensively as I feel it should be. We have so many wonderful technologies and treatments to prolong life, and it's happened relatively quickly, that we often neglect to critically examine whether prolonging life with a severely reduced quality of life is desirable. 

 

What I have gathered from reading so many posts here on the vaccine boards is that a lot of non-vax families and sel/del-vax families are very concerned about quality of life for their children. I believe that to be a very important consideration, and I don't think it's a selfish thing to want your child to have the best quality of life possible. I see some of that on the VOS side also, but more often when debates get going, the point that is constantly being brought up is death: someone could die from this VPD. Absolutely that's true, and it's true that they could develop complications from that VPD and not die, and that could destroy their quality of life too. That's why I don't see this as a black and white issue, but rather one that needs to be carefully weighed. I don't particularly care for the harsh criticism of other people's thought processes (including labeling them as selfish), because we all have to live with the consequences of our decisions, and only we can know what we can and cannot live with. I could not live with deciding to give my son extensive radiation treatment to his whole brain and spine because the chances of it destroying a good portion of his quality of life as too high. As a result, he died from that. It is only recently that I've stopped second-guessing that decision. I am confident that we made the right choice for our son. And yes, he died, possibly as result of that choice. But regardless, I am confident that we made the right choice for him because I knew him so intimately. What I hope for parents is that they have the same degree of certainty when they make medical decisions, including vaccination decisions, for themselves and their children. 

 

I don't want to see parents lose the ability to make important medical decisions for their children. I see the loss of vaccine choice as part of that picture, and it worries me. I was terrified that my son would be taken from me if I refused treatment. We were told by his team that because of the nature of his cancer (very rare, poor prognosis, very aggressive) that any decision regarding his care would be considered valid and respected. I don't want to see that lost from medical decision-making. I don't want to see parents edged out of the picture because the results of that could be very ugly. People need to be able to feel ownership and empowerment in their decisions, otherwise living with negative outcomes could be absolutely unbearable.

Wonderful post all around. Your perspective is such a wonderful, valuable contribution! Thank you for sharing.  I had two friends struggle with making quality of life decisions for their children (one experienced a series interventions for the duration of her child's life (as did the child, obviously) and the other chose no interventions and her child died just a few hours after birth) and what came out of that for me was a deep sense of humility for assuming what I would do in a similar situation. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#79 of 122 Old 05-14-2014, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
Turquesa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,050
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post

Thank you for the kind thoughts; I do appreciate it. I don't want to shut down the conversation on this thread (or any other, for that matter) by sharing that. I just want to present another perspective for consideration.



 



I don't think that "selfishness" is the right word to describe making choices that you feel are in the best interest of your child. The more complex the issue, the harder it is to reduce it to a single concept like selfishness. Having been through what I have with my son, I have a very different take on things. Having lost a child, the last thing that I wish is for someone else to have to go through that. However, there were other serious issues that we had to deal with beyond just life and death. What about quality of life? It's something that is also not discussed as extensively as I feel it should be. We have so many wonderful technologies and treatments to prolong life, and it's happened relatively quickly, that we often neglect to critically examine whether prolonging life with a severely reduced quality of life is desirable. 



 



What I have gathered from reading so many posts here on the vaccine boards is that a lot of non-vax families and sel/del-vax families are very concerned about quality of life for their children. I believe that to be a very important consideration, and I don't think it's a selfish thing to want your child to have the best quality of life possible. I see some of that on the VOS side also, but more often when debates get going, the point that is constantly being brought up is death: someone could die from this VPD. Absolutely that's true, and it's true that they could develop complications from that VPD and not die, and that could destroy their quality of life too. That's why I don't see this as a black and white issue, but rather one that needs to be carefully weighed. I don't particularly care for the harsh criticism of other people's thought processes (including labeling them as selfish), because we all have to live with the consequences of our decisions, and only we can know what we can and cannot live with. I could not live with deciding to give my son extensive radiation treatment to his whole brain and spine because the chances of it destroying a good portion of his quality of life as too high. As a result, he died from that. It is only recently that I've stopped second-guessing that decision. I am confident that we made the right choice for our son. And yes, he died, possibly as result of that choice. But regardless, I am confident that we made the right choice for him because I knew him so intimately. What I hope for parents is that they have the same degree of certainty when they make medical decisions, including vaccination decisions, for themselves and their children. 



 



I don't want to see parents lose the ability to make important medical decisions for their children. I see the loss of vaccine choice as part of that picture, and it worries me. I was terrified that my son would be taken from me if I refused treatment. We were told by his team that because of the nature of his cancer (very rare, poor prognosis, very aggressive) that any decision regarding his care would be considered valid and respected. I don't want to see that lost from medical decision-making. I don't want to see parents edged out of the picture because the results of that could be very ugly. People need to be able to feel ownership and empowerment in their decisions, otherwise living with negative outcomes could be absolutely unbearable.


 



This is a powerful story and probably the most insightful comment that I've read in this forum. I'm terribly sorry for your loss. I don't know if I could ever face such a God-forbid scenario with the kind of courage that you've shown.
littlec and sassyfirechick like this.

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
Turquesa is offline  
#80 of 122 Old 05-15-2014, 04:43 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,102
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 

 

I'm using "civic duty"  I guess in a more colloquial sense.  My feelings about it have nothing to do with whether the government wants me to do it, or whether or not I feel an "allegiance" to the government.  It's...I don't know what a better term would be.  Social contract, maybe? Society is NOT interchangeable to mean government.  The taxes analogy is the best one I could think of where people who can't "pay in" still get to benefit from it.  That is, it's a good for everyone in the population.  I'm sorry if this analogy doesn't work for you for whatever details you think don't apply (maybe because you think I'm implying that people should go to jail for vaccine avoidance as they do for tax avoidance?  I'm not trying to imply that at all.) nono.gifPLEASE don't presume to think for me, it's offensive!

 

 

AGAIN, taxes and vaccines are not connect, no matter how one wants to spin it, all are not vaccinating like all do pay taxes in one form or another, local, state, and federal - I see no connect no matter how you keep trying to making the two connect.  

You seem to have a different meaning vs what the definition really means.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/altruism        the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others

    

Quote:
 If it's not altruism, it IS shellfish! 

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/civic+duty             responsibility -  the responsibilities of a citizen

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/civic-duty/                The concept of civic duty is based on the principle that citizens owe some allegiance to their government and that government in turn protects its citizens. Civic duties refer to the responsibilities of citizens. Often rights enjoyed by citizens also implies corresponding responsibilities.

 

 

I DO NOT have ANY responsibility as a citizen to have a medical procedure on myself or my child. The government does not protect me in regards to vaccines. Key word here - GOVERNMENT.

 

 

 

 

definitions DO matter, makes things nice and clear and keeps everyone on the same page :wink

 

once again, thanks Kathy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

Duty definition:

 

du·ty
ˈd(y)o͞otē/
noun
 
  1. 1.
    a moral or legal obligation; a responsibility.
    "it's my duty to uphold the law"
    synonyms: responsibilityobligationcommitmentMore
     
     
  2.  
     
     
    Taxes are obligatory, vaccines are not.
     
    Vaccines certainly are not a duty in terms of legal obligation but they  might be for you 
    in terms of morality as you see it.  

     

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 

 

No snark, but I do think it's kind of funny that you posted a definition that described exactly how I was using the word, so I'm not sure why it was necessary. 

I see very well why definitions are necessary.


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is online now  
#81 of 122 Old 05-15-2014, 04:47 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,102
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednightingale View Post
 

 

I don't want to see parents lose the ability to make important medical decisions for their children. I see the loss of vaccine choice as part of that picture, and it worries me. I was terrified that my son would be taken from me if I refused treatment. We were told by his team that because of the nature of his cancer (very rare, poor prognosis, very aggressive) that any decision regarding his care would be considered valid and respected. I don't want to see that lost from medical decision-making. I don't want to see parents edged out of the picture because the results of that could be very ugly. People need to be able to feel ownership and empowerment in their decisions, otherwise living with negative outcomes could be absolutely unbearable.

 

Your whole post was so moving! :( 

 

 

vaccines no matter how one wants to spin it ARE medical procedures!


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is online now  
#82 of 122 Old 05-15-2014, 08:31 AM
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
 

You seem to have a different meaning vs what the definition really means.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/altruism        the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others

    

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/civic+duty             responsibility -  the responsibilities of a citizen

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/civic-duty/                The concept of civic duty is based on the principle that citizens owe some allegiance to their government and that government in turn protects its citizens. Civic duties refer to the responsibilities of citizens. Often rights enjoyed by citizens also implies corresponding responsibilities.

 

 

I DO NOT have ANY responsibility as a citizen to have a medical procedure on myself or my child. The government does not protect me in regards to vaccines. Key word here - GOVERNMENT.

 

 

 

 

definitions DO matter, makes things nice and clear and keeps everyone on the same page :wink

 

once again, thanks Kathy!

 

I see very well why definitions are necessary.


Very plainly in the definition Kathy posted it says "a moral or legal obligation; a responsibility.  It is then shown used in a sentence, "it is my duty to uphold the law."  That is one example of a duty, it doesn't mean that all duties are legal obligations.  So, that definition reflects the exact way I'm using the phrase.  I never mentioned the government, you are the one who keeps bringing legalities and government into this.  Duties to other people and society can and do exist out government and the law. 

moderatemom is online now  
#83 of 122 Old 05-15-2014, 08:39 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,102
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 


Very plainly in the definition Kathy posted it says "a moral or legal obligation; a responsibility.  It is then shown used in a sentence, "it is my duty to uphold the law."  That is one example of a duty, it doesn't mean that all duties are legal obligations.  So, that definition reflects the exact way I'm using the phrase.  I never mentioned the government, you are the one who keeps bringing legalities and government into this.  Duties to other people and society can and do exist out government and the law. 

you said the word CIVIC in civic duty/civil duty

Kathy showed you what duty meant, add civic to it - it means the government when used as civic/civil duty 

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civic

 

Taxes are government related, you keep lumping the two together saying it's the same, either it is or it isn't?        I don't pay taxes to non-govement related things. Taxes are deemed and collected by the government, not privately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 

I couldn't and wouldn't make a blanket statement about the selfishness of people who don't vax.  I personally believe it is a civic duty to do so, similar I guess to paying taxes.  Those who can should, and those who can't may take advantage of the system.  In regards to vaccination, I leave it up to the conscience of the individual whether they fall into the "can't" category or not. 


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is online now  
#84 of 122 Old 05-15-2014, 09:21 AM
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
 

you said the word CIVIC in civic duty/civil duty

Kathy showed you what duty meant, add civic to it - it means the government when used as civic/civil duty 

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civic

 

Taxes are government related, you keep lumping the two together saying it's the same, either it is or it isn't?        I don't pay taxes to non-govement related things. Taxes are deemed and collected by the government, not privately.

 

Oh my god who cares?  I have repeatedly said that this is a society thing, not a government thing.  The analogies have to do with government  because it is one of the few things in our society that everyone participates in to make it work, not because I think the government should force vaccinations.  I have a duty to...whatever you want to call it so you don't nitpick it to death...society, the public, people in general.  All of us, put together as a group, benefits from herd immunity, so I think that if one can vaccinate, one should vaccinate, in order to keep herd immunity going for those who can't.  That last sentence is it in a nutshell...call it whatever you want. 

moderatemom is online now  
#85 of 122 Old 05-15-2014, 09:25 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,102
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 


  Duties to other people and society can and do exist out government and the law. 

"maybe" you are trying to say moral obligation with your society reference?

 

.......and we do know that both sides DO NOT hold a majority on morality with vaccines! :wink 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 

 

Oh my god who cares? People who are being attacked happen to care. I have repeatedly said that this is a society thing, not a government thing.  The analogies have to do with government  because it is one of the few things in our society that everyone participates in to make it work, not because I think the government should force vaccinations.  I have a duty to...whatever you want to call it so you don't nitpick it to death...society, the public, people in general.  All of us, put together as a group, benefits from herd immunity, so I think that if one can vaccinate, one should vaccinate, in order to keep herd immunity going for those who can't.  That last sentence is it in a nutshell...call it whatever you want. 


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is online now  
#86 of 122 Old 05-15-2014, 09:37 AM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,102
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 

 

 All of us, put together as a group, benefits from herd immunity, so I think that if one can vaccinate, one should vaccinate, in order to keep herd immunity going for those who can't. 

I'm deeply bothered by your comments-

maybe this will help you understand how I feel........I DO feel this way!

Quote:
 Arguments seated in debating the need for vaccine programs, why everyone should vaccinate, how nonvaccinating parents "threaten" herd immunity, how non-vaccinated children are a threat to others, and other such discussions and comments that are very pro-mandatory vaccination are not acceptable and will not be hosted. 

 

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1400364/posting-guidelines-for-the-forums

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthia Mosher View Post
 

 

 

As a result of this and stemming from all of the very "us versus them" discussions that have become the core ot the Vaccinations Debate forum, I've decided to close it. it will remain open for current discussions to continue but it is now closed to new threads. I think with the clear policies about behavior and posting etiquette we can host all general discussions in the main Vaccinations forum as we did in the past. The rules are simple and and straightforward and everyone will be expected to abide by them. 

 

This is all effective immediately. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. if you have any suggestions for improvement, please share. :)

 

 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is online now  
#87 of 122 Old 05-15-2014, 09:37 AM
 
moderatemom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I'm not attacking anyone.  In my very first post in this thread, I said I leave it up to individuals whether they fall into the "we can't vaccinate" category...specifically not giving any criteria or government strictures.  If you think that's attacking, then we can't even have this conversation.

 

Edit:  Likewise, I didn't violate the posting guidelines, because I put all who decide they can't vaccinate in the group of people who need to be protected by herd immunity.  That means, I expect those of us who can vaccinate to help protect your families, since you have decided that you can't.  

moderatemom is online now  
#88 of 122 Old 05-15-2014, 09:45 AM
 
OrmEmbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 398
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
What if a family "chooses" to not vaccinate? Not because they "cannot" but because they have a good understanding of human physiology and epidemiology and have decided that vaccines are not the best approach to their family's healthcare?

ETA: this theoretical family also believes that it is in the best interest of their wider community that people do not believe or rely upon the concept of herd immunity. It is an interesting and compelling theory that is impossible to attain in real applications. ( much like the difference between in vitro and in vivo experiments)
OrmEmbar is online now  
#89 of 122 Old 05-15-2014, 09:50 AM
 
kathymuggle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,878
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModerateMom View Post
 

I'm not attacking anyone.  In my very first post in this thread, I said I leave it up to individuals whether they fall into the "we can't vaccinate" category...specifically not giving any criteria or government strictures.  If you think that's attacking, then we can't even have this conversation.

 

Edit:  Likewise, I didn't violate the posting guidelines, because I put all who decide they can't vaccinate in the group of people who need to be protected by herd immunity.  That means, I expect those of us who can vaccinate to help protect your families, since you have decided that you can't.  

 

I was bothered by the word can in the original sentence.  I know you said you left the word "can't" up to individual assessment, but it isn't that I "can't" vaccinate. There are no accepted medical reasons for me to avoid vaccination.  I just don't vaccinate.  I don't like the risks as I see them. My body, my childrens bodies...my call. 

 

I know you didn't say it - or even imply it - but there is this idea that floats around that those who can't vaccinate are somehow more justified in their decision than those who can but don't.  I reject that idea.  At the end of the day, vaccines are a personal choice and there shouldn't be huge judgements attached to them.  Yes, vaccine choices can impact other people - but so can virtually every other personal choice. 

 

ETA:  Lol.  Cross posted OmEmbar!  Great minds and all that.....


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

kathymuggle is online now  
#90 of 122 Old 05-15-2014, 09:54 AM
 
applejuice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: hunting the wild aebelskiever
Posts: 18,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

Thank you, but you have never protected me. My protection is my job.

 

Herd immunity is so much magical thinking and fairy dust.

applejuice is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off