Lying about vaccine status - Page 11 - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-29-2014, 07:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Chicharronita View Post
 

 

I think people would have an easier time telling the truth if they would just remember that doctors are their employees, not their bosses. Would you let your mechanic or accountant browbeat, humiliate and patronize you the way some doctors do their patients?

Also, I would be more willing to take their recommendations without question in an emergency situation, but if they have the time to stand around grilling parents about vaccination status when presented with children with broken bones, smashed fingers, severely bleeding wounds, etc., does this mean the situation isn't as urgent as it appears to be? It appears not. 

If a parent shows up with a kid that has a contaminated puncture wound, the doctor will ask about tetanus immunization.  Perhaps it would be considered malpractice for the doctor to not inquire.  If the parent refuses immunization, then it appears that AAP guidelines say that, given the nature of the wound,  this is medical neglect that should be reported to CPS or state officials.

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Old 05-29-2014, 07:38 AM
 
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I'm not posting my experiences to imply anyone is lying, and I don't appreciate the assumptions about my motivations (is someone about to accuse me of being a pharma shill again?).

I posted because I'm grateful those are the experiences I've had. I'm very sorry for others who have been unlucky in their interactions with doctors.

Is there proof that bad experiences are the norm? Any investigation/survey into this someone can point us to?

Mother of two living in UK. Daughter (2007) born in USA, son (2010) born here. I'm pro natural birth, midwife care, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby wearing and a keen advocate of cloth diapering. I'm a full time working research scientist (physical sciences) and I'm pro-vaccine.

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Old 05-29-2014, 07:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tadamsmar View Post
 

If a parent shows up with a kid that has a contaminated puncture wound, the doctor will ask about tetanus immunization.  Perhaps it would be considered malpractice for the doctor to not inquire.  If the parent refuses immunization, then it appears that AAP guidelines say that, given the nature of the wound,  this is medical neglect that should be reported to CPS or state officials.

Tetanus vaccination is useless after a wound for that specific wound.  Ones need TIG, if one needs anything. 

 

Read this for more on tetanus and the difference between the vaccine and TIG

 

http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/hpawebfile/hpaweb_c/1317131148455

 

How is tetanus immunoglobulin different from tetanus vaccine?

The difference between tetanus vaccine and tetanus immunoglobulin is that the vaccine produces an immune response that allows the recipient to make their own antibodies. If you have never been vaccinated, it takes several months for protective antibodies to be generated. If you have been vaccinated in the past it can take up to a week for antibody levels to be boosted. Tetanus immunoglobulin provides immediate protection against tetanus, but the protection is only temporary because the body gradually loses the antibodies from this product naturally and does not make its own antibodies in response to immunoglobulin.


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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Old 05-29-2014, 08:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
 

Tetanus vaccination is useless after a wound for that specific wound.  Ones need TIG, if one needs anything. 

 

Read this for more on tetanus and the difference between the vaccine and TIG

 

http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/hpawebfile/hpaweb_c/1317131148455

 

How is tetanus immunoglobulin different from tetanus vaccine?

The difference between tetanus vaccine and tetanus immunoglobulin is that the vaccine produces an immune response that allows the recipient to make their own antibodies. If you have never been vaccinated, it takes several months for protective antibodies to be generated. If you have been vaccinated in the past it can take up to a week for antibody levels to be boosted. Tetanus immunoglobulin provides immediate protection against tetanus, but the protection is only temporary because the body gradually loses the antibodies from this product naturally and does not make its own antibodies in response to immunoglobulin.

 

Interesting.  This is my source:

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/115/5/1428.full

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Old 05-29-2014, 07:38 PM
 
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testing

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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Old 05-30-2014, 11:14 AM
 
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Quote: Originally Posted by contactmaya
Mandating breastfeeding would violate a woman's right to bodily autonomy. But that wouldnt phase a country like the UAE. Im someone who believes in child led weaning just for the record...


Does mandating vaccines violate a person's right to bodily autonomy? We are talking about forcing the injection of substances. It's obviously different than breastfeeding, but I would argue that's it's far more invasive.

Yes, it does.
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Old 05-30-2014, 11:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post


I posted because I'm grateful those are the experiences I've had. I'm very sorry for others who have been unlucky in their interactions with doctors.


I have never been pestered about my child's vaccination status either at a doctor's office or the ER including coming in for stitches for a gash to the forehead.  But doctors here don't administer the vaccines, you go to a health clinic for that.  I had a nurse tell me (this was in a social situation) that if I were to be hassled about vaccines, then look for a doctor originally from South Africa.  I didn't get the chance to ask her why but all I could think of is "a doctor from the continent of Africa ok with not vaccinating?, well that certainly flies in the face of what we are conditioned to believe". 

I don't have any experience with them as a GP but my ob/gyn for my second child was from South Africa and he was way more relaxed than the ob/gyn I had for my first in NY.  I don't want to say the NY ob was anal but when he sat on the examination table, the hygienic paper went missing.   

I think the policies have a big impact on the standard of care and the disposition of the medical personnel.  Someone who has to worry about pay based quotas and answering to insurance companies is going to perform differently than someone who doesn't.  ( And I believe that the UK did/does have vaccine quotas for GPs). So this in turn will influence how those medical providers treat non-vaccinators.

(This treatment difference is also apparent with insurance claim doctors.  We were in a car accident when we lived in NY and the way our doctors treated us compared to the doctors for the defendant's insurance company was night and day.  I almost passed out doing the tests at one of their doctor's office and threw up during the exam at another one of their doctor's office, and neither one batted an eyelash or asked me if I was okay.)
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Old 05-30-2014, 11:58 AM
 
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Quoteriginally Posted by prosciencemum 

I see an assumption here that, just because you've been treated decently by doctors, that means most people were. That's the same mindset that assumes that, just because your children didn't have an obvious serious reaction to vaccines, that means most people don't, and therefore those who report such a reaction must be exaggerating.

(Implication that the problem doesn't exist)
To clarify - I was expressing gratitude for my own little bubble of good experiences BECAUSE I know that so many others do not get the same experience.

(wish I could do an awesome accent but I was born and raised on the West Coast . . . all bland and boring)
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Old 05-30-2014, 11:58 AM
 
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That's true, but I think they would be less likely to if parents start being more assertive and knowledgeable about their rights.

It may be time for us to start carrying around the business cards of vaccine injury lawyers and calling them in these situations.

This practice has offices all around the country; their number is 1 (800) 229-7704:
http://myvaccinelawyer.com/
Quote: Vaccine status is moot in the treatment of most broken bones or other emergency conditions. If a doctor takes that time to browbeat a parent or call the police or CPS, that doctor is delaying and denying treatment.
Yep; all the more reason to keep some lawyers' cards in our wallets.
That law firm's specialty is vax damage. I believe you would need someone like Alan Phillips for vaccine exemptions rights. Doctors do not care about your exemptions, rights, religion or how assertive and confident you are. They will err on the side of their version of "science" and their trade organization, the AMA, and turn you in.

That is my life long experience, 60 yrs.

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Old 05-30-2014, 02:53 PM
 
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That law firm's specialty is vax damage. I believe you would need someone like Alan Phillips for vaccine exemptions rights. Doctors do not care about your exemptions, rights, religion or how assertive and confident you are. They will err on the side of science and their trade organization, the AMA, and turn you in.

That is my life long experience, 60 yrs.
"err on the side of science", what does that mean?

"..and turn you in", turn people in for what? Not getting their kids vaccinated? Is that how it works in the US? How despotic. "The land Of the free" just keeps getting more ironic all the time!
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Old 05-30-2014, 03:37 PM
 
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Well my 2yo was offered the tetanus vax because of a wound she had. At the time, i didnt know two things, one, that that shot wasnt of any use (according to Kathymuggle's source), and two, that if i had refused it, the doc would have called the CPS. Shocking!

If i had been better informed, and refused the tetanus vax (my daughter is otherwise unvaxed), would CPS have come along and taken my daughter away? Would they have interviewed me on the spot to see whether i was an abusive and neglectful parent? Or would they have come and visited me at my address? (where i would have refused entry without warrant)

I didnt realize that they could have called the CPS on me so easily.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by tadamsmar
If a parent shows up with a kid that has a contaminated puncture wound, the doctor will ask about tetanus immunization. Perhaps it would be considered malpractice for the doctor to not inquire. If the parent refuses immunization, then it appears that AAP guidelines say that, given the nature of the wound, this is medical neglect that should be reported to CPS or state officials.


Tetanus vaccination is useless after a wound for that specific wound. Ones need TIG, if one needs anything.

Read this for more on tetanus and the difference between the vaccine and TIG

http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/hpawebfil.../1317131148455

How is tetanus immunoglobulin different from tetanus vaccine?
The difference between tetanus vaccine and tetanus immunoglobulin is that the vaccine produces an immune response that allows the recipient to make their own antibodies. If you have never been vaccinated, it takes several months for protective antibodies to be generated. If you have been vaccinated in the past it can take up to a week for antibody levels to be boosted. Tetanus immunoglobulin provides immediate protection against tetanus, but the protection is only temporary because the body gradually loses the antibodies from this product naturally and does not make its own antibodies in response to immunoglobulin.
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Old 05-30-2014, 05:19 PM
 
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So how temporary is the immunoglobulin? If tetanus could still develop after it's administered, it may make sense why they may wish to follow it up with a tetanus vaccine. Not that I'm condoning anything as control-freaky as a CPS call ...

In God we trust; all others must show data. selectivevax.gifsurf.gifteapot2.GIFintactivist.gif
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Old 05-31-2014, 08:24 AM
 
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So how temporary is the immunoglobulin? If tetanus could still develop after it's administered, it may make sense why they may wish to follow it up with a tetanus vaccine. Not that I'm condoning anything as control-freaky as a CPS call ...
Control freaky indeed.
They didnt mention she should have a followup-neglect on their part?
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There's a simple solution for the thin-skinned few: grow a pair.  


Well, she does make a good point....

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Last edited by teacozy; 06-02-2014 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 06-03-2014, 12:13 AM
 
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Teacozy - a truly excellent point. I can only imagine the fuss if men went through childbirth. Sorry for the sexist comment - sure some men would do fine with it!
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:57 AM
 
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So how temporary is the immunoglobulin? If tetanus could still develop after it's administered, it may make sense why they may wish to follow it up with a tetanus vaccine. Not that I'm condoning anything as control-freaky as a CPS call ...
Good question.

The bottom line for me is TIG is what they offer to an unimmunised person if they present with a wound that concerns the doctors. If they do not offer TIG, they probably are not overly concerned, and any offer of tetanus vaccine is just being opportunistic.

I also got this from the CDC Pink Book, which adds to the idea that any offer of tetanus vaccine is really more about catching people up that dealing with the issue at hand (bolding mine):

"Persons with wounds that are neither clean nor minor, and who have had 0–2 prior doses of tetanus toxoid or have an uncertain history of prior doses should receive TIG as well as Td or Tdap. This is because early doses of toxoid may not induce immunity, but only prime the immune system. The TIG provides temporary immunity by directly providing antitoxin. This ensures that protective levels of antitoxin are achieved even if an immune response has not yet occurred."

There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

Book and herb loving mama to 1 preteen and 2 teens (when did that happen?).  We travel, go to school, homeschool, live rurally, eat our veggies, spend too much time...

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